Physical requirements for CAP ground teams

[davidsinn]

Our own standards recommend the ability to hike 6 miles with full 72 gear. That's not enforced nor do I think it should be. But I agree that we need some standard. I've got a 5'-6" 380lb GTM(T) that I wonder about.

[_]

Back to the subject of physical standards.  I am in favor of some form of standards.  If nothing else you need a standard to make sure someone doesn't have a heart attack just walking up a hill.  I am not a fit man by any means so don't think this is coming from a triathlete.  In the civilian team I'm a member of we are required to do the 2 miles in 40 minutes with our pack on.  I did it on rolling terrain with 10 minutes to spare.  That kind of standard is not overly cumbersome.

I could go along with a standard like that, maybe not those exact numbers, but something similar.  For instance, perhaps 2 miles in 40 minutes with 24 hour gear.  I'm a good sized guy too, but I wouldn't have any problem with that standard.

I don't think we need a super tough standard with full 72 hour gear or anything.  After all, we are CAP, not the infantry.

In the example I gave we were carrying our regular field gear.  Think 24hr gear without as much extra stuff you don't really need.  I definitely don't like the idea of doing it with my 72hr gear.  My 72hr gear is set up for the normal situation where you walk 100ft to the campsite and plop it down, so all my stuff is big and heavy but comfortable.  

Having some kind of standard is also good because it insures you carry only what you are capable of carrying over a distance.  I've seen so many cadets with E-tools and extra stuff slung off their pistol belts (seniors too, but mainly cadets).  By going through this you can also evaluate what you can and can't carry in terms of the extra stuff you may want to carry.  Another possible standard is a longer distance but untimed.  When I went to the NJWG GSAR school in 97 we had to complete a 10 kilometer march along the tank trails of Ft Dix.  It was good in that you learned what to carry and what not to and why you want to make sure your gear fit well.

[RiverAux]

I think that some sort of timed hike with 24-hour gear makes sense.  As to the exact time, I couldn't really hazard a guess, but we would need to have some sort of realistic minimum weight set for the 24 hour gear to make sure people don't go out with hardly loaded packs.  I think 2-3 miles would be appropriate. 

[Short Field]

I took ICS 300 in a class taught by CAP members over 2 weekends. 

That is great if you have CAP members who are qualified to teach the course.   If you have people who are only qualified to read the powerpoint slides, then just email the slides to everyone and sign them off.

Back to the subject of physical standards.  I am in favor of some form of standards.  If nothing else you need a standard to make sure someone doesn't have a heart attack just walking up a hill. 

Sounds like a self-corrrecting issue.  Even if a person can't keep up over rough terrain, there is a mission for them even if it is just remaining back at the vehicles.    Physical standards for PICs would make more sense - if he passes out you have a real problem.   If the old fat guy passes out on the ground, you might get "Save" credit and see a real mission. 

[lordmonar]

Also there is the issue of higher ICS postions.

Planning and Operations both require you to be at one time GTM3 qualified.

So we got some real sharp air crew member who is ready to take on the very important job of PSC...but because he can't pass the PT test he is forever barred from moving up in the chain.

As for the safety issue....your AOBD/GTL always can make the call....."sorry I just don't think you are physically fit enough to be on the team for your safety and the sake of the mission you should stay behind."

[RiverAux]

Don't worry -- if we go with NIMS and have standards for ground teams, there will also be physical standards for the aircrews.  They've got the same sort of vague requirement as ground teams. 

As for pilots wanting to be PSCs -- they can meet the ground requirement by being a UDF team member or a GTM.  I suspect that there will also be UDF physical standards, but I would think they would be very, very easy to meet since we're not really talking about the same sort of work. 

[_]

I suspect that there will also be UDF physical standards, but I would think they would be very, very easy to meet since we're not really talking about the same sort of work. 

Yeah, you have to be able to walk all the way up to someone's door and knock loud enough to wake them up at 2am.  You fail if you don't get the proper volume out of the knocks.   

[RiverAux]

A few 16 oz curls will strengthen up those knocks!

[Short Field]

I suspect that there will also be UDF physical standards,

I suspect we will not have to worrry about NIMS physical requirments.

[Eclipse]

I suspect that there will also be UDF physical standards,

I suspect we will not have to worrry about NIMS physical requirements.

Ditto, or at least none worth getting worked up about...

[isuhawkeye]

since ESF #9 places inland sar under the department o the interior does that mean that teams participating in missing person searches will have to meet park service pt standards? sarcasm intended

[Eclipse]

since ESF #9 places inland sar under the department o the interior does that mean that teams participating in missing person searches will have to meet park service pt standards? sarcasm intended

Only YOU can find an ELT...

[Tubacap]

I know it is early still, but that is the funniest thing I have seen all day.

[NavLT]

I think this all goes back to are we really prepared to do the job or are we pencil whipping people who want the title.

I see very few places practicing 24 Hour, 72 Hour ops so people are getting qualified for chatting about it but when the big Mission comes are they going to become a casualty for attempting to do something for the first time?

With the PSC and OSC I have found very little chance of training to even do the job because the only people qualifed to train are the Old Style MCs and most of them lived in a Me and the Other guy at base world.  They have no structure in place to practice PSC and OSC outside of the fabled once a year Wing wide GTE.  If you can only get a practice shot at a Secton cheif once per year I am not sure where they plan on finding the next generation of ICs.

[Tubacap]

That is where I am at right now.  I am a PSC (T), but can't find any missions worth having a PSC on.  The IC can go through and do some of this stuff, but there really is not a good way to do it effectively and play within CAP.  I can do several exercises though through the county.  I guess it's just a matter of coordinating with the DO and getting a mission number for those mission so that they can count.

[N Harmon]

Have you considered doing some tabletop exercises? The qualified trainers could come up with a scenario and then have the trainees do their thing. There is no reason to limit PSC and OSC training to organized SAREXs.

[NavLT]

I did not say that I did not see the ability to do the training, I said that organizationally I see very little of it happening.  In Virginia the ICs I worked with had bi-weekly table top missions to work on base staff skills and it was very effective.

I just worry about where the next generation is comming from when the old generation is not actively working to create it.  In the Nav one of the primary responsibilities of an officer was to train his replacement, not a bad credo.

It has gotten so bad I was recently copied on a wing asking neighboring wings to cover missions due to a lack of ICs.  No mater how they dress it up the problem existed a long time before the last IC or 2 retired.  And imagine the stress of accepting a mission from out of state with next to no knowledge of the region or the assets.. Ouch.

I think that National needs to take a look at "how are we ensuring quality and quantity of training" and the results.

V/R
LT J.

[RiverAux]

Our own standards recommend the ability to hike 6 miles with full 72 gear. That's not enforced nor do I think it should be. But I agree that we need some standard. I've got a 5'-6" 380lb GTM(T) that I wonder about.

Somehow I missed this when it was first posted.  Do you have a citation where CAP requires a 6 mile hike with a 72hour pack?

But the main reason I was bringing this thread back was because in another thread it was stated that the SAR typing document was going back for major revision and since that was the original reference for PT-type requirements that started this thread, I was wondering if there was any specific information available about was going on in that area. 

And to extend the original purpose of this thread a bit.... In looking at task O-0502 Participate in a Litter Carry  I think it would make sense to have some sort of strength requirement as part of the GT standards.  Not sure what would be the best individual test for this since this is more of a team requirement, but we would want something to make sure that everyone could carry their own weight (so to speak).

[sardak]

Wow, RA, you must be bored to be dragging up a 10 month old thread.

The revised NIMS credentialing, as it looked a year ago when last sent out for comment, left the physical fitness requirement up to the agency having jurisdiction (AHJ).

However, each position also had "recommended criteria." For physical fitness, several positions listed "develop a national fitness standard," for the land SAR positions, the recommendation was the NWCG Moderate level "pack test," and for the structural collapse positions the recommendation was several NFPA standards.

Who knows what they'll look like when they come out for the final round of public comment sometime (soon?).

The ASTM standard for basic land rescue team member, which passed its final vote and should be published shortly, calls out for the NWCG Moderate level. The ASTM basic land search team member leaves the fitness requirement up to the AHJ. It however, is out for review right now.

For those who won't read the previous posts in this thread, the NWCG Moderate level test is to walk 2 miles in 30 minutes on level ground with a 25 pound pack.

Mike

[RiverAux]

Wow, RA, you must be bored to be dragging up a 10 month old thread.

Not bored, but I wanted to ask the question and I know how some people get their nose out of joint if someone starts a new thread when there has been one even remotely like it used in the last 5 years.