CAP Radio Communications Are Being Monitored!

[BillB]

Why would the site owner remove them?

[Eclipse]

Why would the site owner remove them?

Because the federal government, our regulations, and common sense, say they are not supposed to be posted.

We can ask nicely, and many times site owners comply out of courtesy.  The Feds (NTIA / DOD) tell these site owners to cease and desist.

[Johnny Yuma]

Encryption?

[lisp] Super![/lisp]

Get right on it, right after:

- wrap up the remaining repeater installations
- flash every EFJ radio with the new firmware, a 45 minute job per radio X150 radios
- the SECOND EFJ, NPX138 and Technsonic reprogramming to remove the wideband channels X 150 radios
- ICUT
- Install the HF ALE radios they shotgunned out last Spring
- Install the HF ALe radios they still have shelved at NTC to go out

Gee, I also got a WFA visit, an Air Force Logistics Audit, a SAV and a CI in the next 90 days!

If they would let people do it we could get all the radios redone. Then maybe they would issue them out

The firmware revision isn't for everyone and will only run on certain PC's. There's like 3 separate flashes that happen and if done in the wrong order you toast the radio.

I'd let more people reprogram the radios, except for the fact that folks start deciding what's "best" for their unit to have in "their" radios and start screwing with the codeplug. So instead of having 150 radios that are programmed the same we now have 150 radios programmed differently. I'll continue to program the radios so every radio you use works exactly like all the rest.

Well, units are gonna have to start doling out radios where they belong, in the hands of the IC's and GTL's. It's goign to be part of the SUI's and CI's to check inventories and gig units with too much stuff on the shelves and issued equipment where it doesn't belong. Noncompliance will be findings that will have to be corrected. I dunno about your wing, but I'm turning the screws HARd on my unit Commanders to get the crap off their shelves.

[JC004]

I just saw a link that said "Civil Air Patrol," so I clicked to see.

Did you send the link to your wing's DC or simply ask the site owner to remove them?

I sent a link.  That's all I can do.  I'm done with chasing CAP directors of whatever down.  If NHQ or the NTIA or whatever group doesn't want them there, they need to take the action.  They could be on a thousand pages for all I know.  I didn't look.  I just ran into them when looking for LE frequencies for my scanner.

It has been mentioned here before that they are freely available.  I don't know to what extent, but I've certainly seen them over time.

[BillB]

There are several scanner geek sites online that list the CAP frequencies. And CAP or DoD can not control the lists. According to the Communications Act of 1932, the airways are public. The FCC assigns the frequencies to hams, government, communications companies and other interests. The only limitation is the FCC has required that radios covering cell phone frequencies not be produced. Every scanner has a block on those frequencies. CAP regulations have no weight for non-CAP members, and DoD can't send a C&D letter to remove the government band frequencies. Many states have laws that police scanners can't be used in cars. But even then there are exceptions, usually the news media and hams. There is no law on the books saying that a scanner geek can't put the list of radio frequencies on his web page.

[ol'fido]

^^^^^ Yep!!

[JC004]

I assumed what you are now saying was probably true, but I didn't know all the pieces.  CAP puts FOUO notices all over that crap but I don't think that means much.  Heck, I've seen it on stupid stuff that has nothing special in it.  I was talking to someone from the State Department who was telling me there is some question about this whole FOUO thing and what weight it has legally since it's not classified information.  I don't know much about that - I haven't looked into it. 

Like I said, it could be on a thousand pages for all I know.  I was just looking for scanner frequencies using my phone, so I wasn't doing any intense web browsing.  I clicked...it was moderately interesting, and I went back to doing what I was doing.  PLs aren't that hard to get either.  If you have the frequency, you just go through the PLs trying to activate the repeater until it works.  MAGIC!

[Eclipse]

There are several scanner geek sites online that list the CAP frequencies. And CAP or DoD can not control the lists. According to the Communications Act of 1932, the airways are public. The FCC assigns the frequencies to hams, government, communications companies and other interests. The only limitation is the FCC has required that radios covering cell phone frequencies not be produced. Every scanner has a block on those frequencies. CAP regulations have no weight for non-CAP members, and DoD can't send a C&D letter to remove the government band frequencies. Many states have laws that police scanners can't be used in cars. But even then there are exceptions, usually the news media and hams. There is no law on the books saying that a scanner geek can't put the list of radio frequencies on his web page.

For starters you might want to look into which agency actually controls CAP frequencies...

[tsrup]

There are several scanner geek sites online that list the CAP frequencies. And CAP or DoD can not control the lists. According to the Communications Act of 1932, the airways are public. The FCC assigns the frequencies to hams, government, communications companies and other interests. The only limitation is the FCC has required that radios covering cell phone frequencies not be produced. Every scanner has a block on those frequencies. CAP regulations have no weight for non-CAP members, and DoD can't send a C&D letter to remove the government band frequencies. Many states have laws that police scanners can't be used in cars. But even then there are exceptions, usually the news media and hams. There is no law on the books saying that a scanner geek can't put the list of radio frequencies on his web page.

Thats all well and fine, if the FCC was the agency that controlled our freq's.

I'll give you a hint.  Its not.

[arajca]

The FCC does not assign federal government frequencies, including DoD (of which CAP freqs are a subset). The NTIA assign frequencies to government agencies - including the FCC. The FCC merely reassigns those frequencies assigned to it by the NTIA.

There are several scanner geek sites online that list the CAP frequencies. And CAP or DoD can not control the lists. According to the Communications Act of 1932, the airways are public. The FCC assigns the frequencies to hams, government, communications companies and other interests. The only limitation is the FCC has required that radios covering cell phone frequencies not be produced. Every scanner has a block on those frequencies. CAP regulations have no weight for non-CAP members, and DoD can't send a C&D letter to remove the government band frequencies. Many states have laws that police scanners can't be used in cars. But even then there are exceptions, usually the news media and hams. There is no law on the books saying that a scanner geek can't put the list of radio frequencies on his web page.

Thats all well and fine, if the FCC was the agency that controlled our freq's.

I'll give you a hint.  Its not.

[RADIOMAN015]

Why would the site owner remove them?

Because the federal government, our regulations, and common sense, say they are not supposed to be posted.

We can ask nicely, and many times site owners comply out of courtesy.  The Feds (NTIA / DOD) tell these site owners to cease and desist.

The logic above escapes me totally.   Whether any federal or military radio systems' frequencies are posted on a website, taken off the website, or never posted on a website, doesn't change the OPSEC/COMSEC principle that ALWAYS applies.  On an unencrypted radio transmission one should assume that they are ALWAYS being monitored!!!!!!!!

Somewhere buried on the www.radioreference.com site is a letter (probably about 3 year ago) from USAF AETC Comm asking the site to remove CAP and all AETC base radio system/frequency information from the website.   Apparently the website owner may have talked with a lawyer, because doesn't look like it was removed, actually looks like it was expanded.  Check out the Federal Monitoring Wiki on that website.

Even on encrypted transmissions, the signal is still known to be present in a specific geographic area.  With new high end radio scanner/receiver equipment with the "close call capture" enabled the radio would alert even to an encrypted radio transmission so the individual would know "someone" is close by.  (Likely by NAC availability/display & frequency, be able to determine the agency).   So cellphones may be the best method to use.  Sprint/Nextel has been advertising their system for public safety comms (not sure on critical systems that's the best idea).   

So if we go to encryption that's fine, BUT I would guess that that the asset control procedures on encrypted radios will be very strong and if you loose one of those radio, CAP will likely treat the member responsible very harshly.
RM

 

[CAP.is.1337]

Why would the site owner remove them?

Because the federal government, our regulations, and common sense, say they are not supposed to be posted.

We can ask nicely, and many times site owners comply out of courtesy.  The Feds (NTIA / DOD) tell these site owners to cease and desist.

Two words: Streisand effect.

[SARTAC Medic]

So? 

[Eclipse]

Two words: Streisand effect.

Not applicable.

[MikeD]

I don't see how encrypted radios will be anything but a total disaster in CAP.  How are we going to handle keying?  How tightly controlled with they be?  Do our radios support AES, DES, or one of the NSA-supplied codes?   Will we be able to key a radio with someone's laptop right before a mission? 

On a side note, will our repeaters pass along any encrypted radio signal, or would they need to be loaded with the current keys too?

[arajca]

AES

Repeaters will pass the encrypted signal as currently configured.

As for how to handle keys, that's a HUGE issue that has been brought up many times to the National leadership. No resolution yet.

One of the upgrades to the latest radios is Over-The-Air-Rekeying. This should allow a 'master' radio to send the keys to other radios. I don't know which radios will be masters or who will have them. I don't think National knows.

[CommGeek]

 the Federal USAR Teams use a 'Master" OTAR station connected to a modem.  To rekey your radios you simply dial in to the remote 'OTAR Command Center' control station with your modem, and make sure the radios being rekeyed are in range of the 'Master' OTAR station.

This way you don't have to distribute keys to anyone...its done via modem back to national.   In a perfect world we would equip our repeaters with phone lines, (They all already have modems). this way national  (or Wing) could push a key to any radio in range or a repeater.

[MikeD]

OTA keying sounds like the way to go, particularly with something like AES where you could have a public-key infrastructure in place, and therefore could verify radio ID before sending out a key.  It sounds like some OT&E is called for here.

[arajca]

The problem is not all of our radios can do OTAR.

[Gung Ho]

Why would the site owner remove them?

Because the federal government, our regulations, and common sense, say they are not supposed to be posted.

We can ask nicely, and many times site owners comply out of courtesy.  The Feds (NTIA / DOD) tell these site owners to cease and desist.

The logic above escapes me totally.   Whether any federal or military radio systems' frequencies are posted on a website, taken off the website, or never posted on a website, doesn't change the OPSEC/COMSEC principle that ALWAYS applies.  On an unencrypted radio transmission one should assume that they are ALWAYS being monitored!!!!!!!!

Somewhere buried on the www.radioreference.com site is a letter (probably about 3 year ago) from USAF AETC Comm asking the site to remove CAP and all AETC base radio system/frequency information from the website.   Apparently the website owner may have talked with a lawyer, because doesn't look like it was removed, actually looks like it was expanded.  Check out the Federal Monitoring Wiki on that website.

Even on encrypted transmissions, the signal is still known to be present in a specific geographic area.  With new high end radio scanner/receiver equipment with the "close call capture" enabled the radio would alert even to an encrypted radio transmission so the individual would know "someone" is close by.  (Likely by NAC availability/display & frequency, be able to determine the agency).   So cellphones may be the best method to use.  Sprint/Nextel has been advertising their system for public safety comms (not sure on critical systems that's the best idea).   

So if we go to encryption that's fine, BUT I would guess that that the asset control procedures on encrypted radios will be very strong and if you loose one of those radio, CAP will likely treat the member responsible very harshly.
RM

The guy that owns the radioreference website is not about to remove anything that makes him money unless they can force him to. He is all about sitting back and making money off all those mods that do it for free along with all the folks that send in the data for free. He then turns around and sells it back to you or to places like Uniden. He makes his living off that site and is not about to cut into his profit if he doesn't have to