CAP Radio Communications Are Being Monitored!

[Eclipse]

why does everything have to go through the CUL?  it doesn't.  common misconception by CAP.

Because then all messages and taskings are recorded in the official mission log.

Lord - Comms is not the authority, they are the "voice of command" - maybe you have perfect ICP's where everyone works and plays well,
but in a trainee environment not all instructions are clear, understood, or don't conflict with other orders.

Having a single point of communications insures everything is recorded and in theory understood.  Also, when broadcast over freq's all
assets can hear, sometimes messages don't need to be repeated, and GT's and Observers can keep a handle on the whole field to avoid
problems.
(Yes, things break, people go out of comm range, etc., this is the plan, not the micro 1% contingency).

[Krapenhoeffer]

But when have you been on an ACTUAL mission where there were more than 2 ground teams at a time?

Training is one thing, and by all means, stick with the radios... But in an actual mission, you can document everything, and still use more secure methods of communication, to include phones and internet.

Besides, for your run of the mill ELT hunt, IC is going to be WELL out of repeater range anyway.

[Eclipse]

But when have you been on an ACTUAL mission where there were more than 2 ground teams at a time?

Katrina, Kentucky, most REDCAPS in my wing. 
Downstate we are a primary responder for missing persons, they routinely have a lot of teams, and many times from different wings.

Training is one thing, and by all means, stick with the radios... But in an actual mission, you can document everything, and still use more secure methods of communication, to include phones and internet.

You don't train one way and do something else during an actual.

Besides, for your run of the mill ELT hunt, IC is going to be WELL out of repeater range anyway.

We're clearly not discussing a small ELT chase, however at least in my wing repeater coverage is pretty good, especially in the areas we get most ELT's.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Well, I still keep my radio on, and monitoring whatever channel they want me to monitor... I use the radio for the required check ins, and boring stuff that the media frankly doesn't care about. But if I have a Foxtrot, it goes through the cell phone.

As for missing person searches, same goes for us. Most of the time

1) Sheriff designates CAP for all non-Criminal missing person searches.
2) Sheriff hands search over to State Patrol. State Patrol's protocols involves getting AFRCC involved as soon as possible, which means us.

And now that everyone and their grandmother carries a cell phone with them, missing person search radii are reduced greatly... And in those situations where the victim doesn't have a cell phone, and CAP has to be called in... You don't want to be requesting the coroner over the radio, where the victim's family, and the media can hear it.

Disaster Relief is another animal entirely, and I'm not worried so much about sensitive information, or alerting the media, as they have already be alerted by the presence of disaster.

[Thunder]

The CAPF110 is flexible enough you can log phone calls, text messages, etc. If box A is CC1 and box B is AIR1, put "Phone" in box C and "Text" in box D (and write the phone number down). It can still be logged.

CUL and all radio operators are under the Logistics branch. There is a reason we are not in Operations. We are a resource that is used, not people that carry out the mission directly. No radio ever saved a life.

Also, cell phone and text communications certainly can be traced and subpeona'd.

[Eclipse]

Also, cell phone and text communications certainly can be traced and subpeona'd.

First off, good luck with that, second, we're not talking about a legal situation, we're talking about "Jim said RTB" but "Jane said stay in the field".  No one is going to court to figure that out, but I've had more than one case where someone stood in front of me and said "I told you x..."  or you "you never told me Y...", only to find that the signed message sheets say other wise.

In my wing we use 3-part message forms and everyone gets a copy - sender, comms and recipient.  Its one of the few places I still appreciate paper (though we could go paperless fairly easily).  Rarely will I accept a tasking order, etc., that isn't in writing.

[Short Field]

No reason for all the message to go through the CUL. If you had the money/space AOBD and GBD would have their own radio operator.

I don't care who has a radio operator - but I had better see EVERY radio call logged on the comm log.  I also expect to see every phone call to a team or aircrew logged by the AOBD and the GBD.  If it is a comm check-in call, I expect to see it in the comm log as well.     

Comm is NOT a point of authority....they are a point of communcations.   I can't stand it when comm guys try to direct teams or mission base personnel. 

Totally concur.  One of my pet peeve is when I am in the field and call for instructions from mission base and get told "hold one" by the radio operator.  Then after two hours the AOBD/GBD/CUL/PSC/OSC/IC finally return from brunch and I get an answer.

CUL and all radio operators are under the Logistics branch.

ICS allows radio operators to be placed at just about anyplace they are useful and assigned to just about anyone.  The CUL builds the comm plan but does not need all the radio operators working for him during the operation.

[CommGeek]

Logistics is Section, not a Branch

[ZigZag911]

As an IC there have been occasions that I spoke with a GT or even an aircrew via cell phone and revised their instructions.

Following such conversations, I informed Ops Section Chief, not CUL...OSC made sure relevant branch director got it on the board, paperwork, etc.

CUL keeps a communications log...the mission log is maintained (or at least under direction of) the IC.

[Short Field]

As the IC, did you log it on your mission log?

[lordmonar]

why does everything have to go through the CUL?  it doesn't.  common misconception by CAP.

Because then all messages and taskings are recorded in the official mission log.

Lord - Comms is not the authority, they are the "voice of command" - maybe you have perfect ICP's where everyone works and plays well,
but in a trainee environment not all instructions are clear, understood, or don't conflict with other orders.

Having a single point of communications insures everything is recorded and in theory understood.  Also, when broadcast over freq's all
assets can hear, sometimes messages don't need to be repeated, and GT's and Observers can keep a handle on the whole field to avoid
problems.
(Yes, things break, people go out of comm range, etc., this is the plan, not the micro 1% contingency).

Having a single point of comm...means that the message gets passed between more people...anyone who has played "telephone" knows that is not smart.

As far as logging your comms...no reason the AOBD or GBD can't do that just as well as the two guys in the comm room.  In fact it would be easier because they would only being logging THEIR message traffic and not everyones.

[ZigZag911]

As the IC, did you log it on your mission log?

Absolutely, as for example "re-tasked GT2 from air/ground coordinated search to conduct ramp check at MMU".

[RADIOMAN015]

As the IC, did you log it on your mission log?

Absolutely, as for example "re-tasked GT2 from air/ground coordinated search to conduct ramp check at MMU".

My suggestion would be to ensure you number each tasking, e.g. #1, #2, #3, you could also use a prefix Air=Alpha & Ground=Golf.  This way there's no confusion and it is easier for the radio comm folks to control.  So that if ground team #1 completes task GOLF 4, they they report in "Task GOLF 4 completed, negative results" and that is easily logged by comm and can be audited.  Also some mission comms actually use two part telephone message type forms and actually write the message down and give a copy to the appropriate Air or Ground Branch director.  A copy is automatically retained in the comm section.  (Not my idea, but another guy in the wing who does a fantastic job (He can't wear the AF style uniform because of his hair length so it's the blue golf shirt or blue flight/BDU's)).

Also if you are using formal message traffic besides the DTG, at the beginning of the text message I would add a control number to that such as "IC" (India Charlie) #1, etc. IF you are responding to a higher level such as in a region wide exercise.   

Again it's a matter of keeping control easily and ensuring all messages/taskings are complied with and are closed out.

Also I think it is a very good idea to have teams/aircraft crews read back instructions each time, especially if ANY coordinates are given.

RM   

[Short Field]

So that if ground team #1 completes task GOLF 4, they they report in "Task GOLF 4 completed, negative results" and that is easily logged by comm and can be audited.

The GBD should know what GT1 is tasked to accomplish already so a simply task completed, negative results is good enough.

Also some mission comms actually use two part telephone message type forms and actually write the message down and give a copy to the appropriate Air or Ground Branch director. 

Not a bad idea when passing requests.  I tend to use a post-it so that the MRO can correctly read the task and coordinates to the crew/team but this would be better.  Passing verbal directions that are more complex than RTB tend to get screwed up really fast.

[Thunder]

Also some mission comms actually use two part telephone message type forms and actually write the message down and give a copy to the appropriate Air or Ground Branch director.  A copy is automatically retained in the comm section.

AWESOME idea - I think I'll use it in the upcoming SAREX I'm doing. Question though, do you staple to the comm log, or leave loose in a folder?

Also I think it is a very good idea to have teams/aircraft crews read back instructions each time, especially if ANY coordinates are given.

RM

I teach this to everyone that works with me. It is the responsibility of the transmitter to verify the message is copied and understood correctly, not the receiver. I have them verify coordinates, codes, identification numbers like Tail number or plates, addresses... basically, anything that if was even the slightest bit incorrect, could cause the whole mission to go south. In poor reception conditions, this applies too.

[CommGeek]

Most Missions and exercises I have been on we put a radio  in the operations section so the AOBD/GBD/OSC can listen and communicate directly with the assets on the field.

Too many times does the Comm Unit receive a message that the A/c  or Ground team has reached the target etc....and then it takes 15 for Cadet Snuffy to walk over to the OPS room, find the appropriate person and deliver the message.   

This way the people who need to know can communicate real time with the assets.

Or if you use IMU or instant messaging it helps as well.  But the Comms MUST remain at the tactical level.  Unless we are going to use our OPS personell as MRO's or Dispatchers.
We used to have an Incident Dispatcher in FLWG....and they did just that.

[Johnny Yuma]

Encryption?

[lisp] Super![/lisp]

Get right on it, right after:

- wrap up the remaining repeater installations
- flash every EFJ radio with the new firmware, a 45 minute job per radio X150 radios
- the SECOND EFJ, NPX138 and Technsonic reprogramming to remove the wideband channels X 150 radios
- ICUT
- Install the HF ALE radios they shotgunned out last Spring
- Install the HF ALe radios they still have shelved at NTC to go out

Gee, I also got a WFA visit, an Air Force Logistics Audit, a SAV and a CI in the next 90 days! 

[Gung Ho]

Encryption?

[lisp] Super![/lisp]

Get right on it, right after:

- wrap up the remaining repeater installations
- flash every EFJ radio with the new firmware, a 45 minute job per radio X150 radios
- the SECOND EFJ, NPX138 and Technsonic reprogramming to remove the wideband channels X 150 radios
- ICUT
- Install the HF ALE radios they shotgunned out last Spring
- Install the HF ALe radios they still have shelved at NTC to go out

Gee, I also got a WFA visit, an Air Force Logistics Audit, a SAV and a CI in the next 90 days!

If they would let people do it we could get all the radios redone. Then maybe they would issue them out

[JC004]

Encryption?

[lisp] Super![/lisp]

Get right on it, right after:

- wrap up the remaining repeater installations
- flash every EFJ radio with the new firmware, a 45 minute job per radio X150 radios
- the SECOND EFJ, NPX138 and Technsonic reprogramming to remove the wideband channels X 150 radios
- ICUT
- Install the HF ALE radios they shotgunned out last Spring
- Install the HF ALe radios they still have shelved at NTC to go out

Gee, I also got a WFA visit, an Air Force Logistics Audit, a SAV and a CI in the next 90 days!

If they would let people do it we could get all the radios redone. Then maybe they would issue them out

No, no.  We can't do it because CAP members (most) can't have the frequencies...only everyone else who can use Google can have them.     I even found a pretty complete list of the PAWG repeater PL tones somewhere using Google a few weeks ago.     So heh...not just frequencies, but the PLs too.     Funny thing is I wasn't even looking for them when I came across them.  I just saw a link that said "Civil Air Patrol," so I clicked to see.

[Eclipse]

I just saw a link that said "Civil Air Patrol," so I clicked to see.

Did you send the link to your wing's DC or simply ask the site owner to remove them?