Flightline Marshaling - Training and SQTR Signoffs

[Eclipse]

Not even close.  Flight-line operations come under the purview of the AOBD.  The FLS works for the AOBD.  If there is no FLS, then the FLMs work directly for the AOBD.

That makes no sense, why do we need FLS if FLMs can work directly with AOBDs?

For starters, not all flight lines are complex enough to require that many FLMs, and thus another expansion of span of control.

GTM's work independent of the mission base and therefore need local command, FLM's don't.

[mynetdude]

Not even close.  Flight-line operations come under the purview of the AOBD.  The FLS works for the AOBD.  If there is no FLS, then the FLMs work directly for the AOBD.

That makes no sense, why do we need FLS if FLMs can work directly with AOBDs?

For starters, not all flight lines are complex enough to require that many FLMs, and thus another expansion of span of control.

GTM's work independent of the mission base and therefore need local command, FLM's don't.

Ok that makes sense, that still does not resolve the issue why we need a FLS unless they are reserved for larger flight lines.

Is there any regulation that stipulates that a FLS is not required for FLM ops?

[SarDragon]

I've seen more small mission flight line operations run without predefined FLS/FLM assets than I have seen with. Up until my quals ran out, I frequently became the defacto FLM/FLS when I showed up, and most of the time, my participation in that capacity was not really required.

[ßτε]

Ok that makes sense, that still does not resolve the issue why we need a FLS unless they are reserved for larger flight lines.

Is there any regulation that stipulates that a FLS is not required for FLM ops?

Better yet, find where it says that FLS is required.

[davidsinn]

Limiting people with the SET quals?

Well then, CAP better take the "SET test" out of the general ES testing area and start putting under the Commanders Restricted side of eServices, is that how we are to understand this?

IS there a SET Academy or FLM/FLS Academy in the US other than NESA?

Is that what it is going to come down to in CAP limiting SETs and trainers?

If that is going to happen...then there ought to a CAP funded SET Academy and FLS training site in every State?

Limiting the SET quals?? Better get it out of the ES test bank then to limit access....more of  "CAP power and control."

Never saw a "race" yet in CAP for sign offs  and really, like aerial detection, as I mentioned in another thread, FLM and FLS is NOT rocket science after one has spent it on some major military and civilian FBO ramps.

Only CAP could make a project out of something by "limiting" SET quals WOOOOW!!  Define a Professional job in CAP?  Is that civilian acquired skills that are transferred in to CAP from the outside or is it training acquired through only CAP? 

Better have some good definite reasons other than "signoff races" to limit SET quals.  The SET "exam" is so lame anyways that even a K-12 teacher could teach FLS / FLM skills.  Those folks HAVE the credentials to teach....CAP going to require college level education to teach as a SET?? How would one argue with that?  Does CAP need  CFI levels or does CAP need to make an exam to the tune of FAA AGI to even teach this skills??

I am surprised NESA doesn't have FLM/FLS training considering they have the MAS it would be perfect, I don't know how many CAP aircraft show up for NESA but I'd personally use NESA as a starting point to advance my training and hone it and if David Sinn were there FWIW I don't know him but I'd want him to be my instructor despite how mean he might be

Since you asked, NBB technically is the FLM/FLS school amongst other training that is available such as UDF

I'd love to go to NESA. I'm most interested in going to MAS and someday I'll get there. If we could run a week long flightline with 20+ airplanes that would rock.

[mynetdude]

Ok that makes sense, that still does not resolve the issue why we need a FLS unless they are reserved for larger flight lines.

Is there any regulation that stipulates that a FLS is not required for FLM ops?

Better yet, find where it says that FLS is required.

Ok.... this really makes me mad... now I just want to put myself in a closet and HIDE!!! (no fault of yours or anyone elses)

[SarDragon]

QUALIFIED SUPERVISOR CHART

[mynetdude]

QUALIFIED SUPERVISOR CHART

This is an AWESOME link!!!!

[mynetdude]

seems I beat this thread to death, awesome answers and worthwhile discussions prove all my misconceptions.

last question, since an AFAM mission # is needed to assist the public in flight line ops do we need a mission number to marshal our own CAP aircraft (say for o-rides, etc? Non mission stuff)

[Eclipse]

seems I beat this thread to death, awesome answers and worthwhile discussions prove all my misconceptions.

last question, since an AFAM mission # is needed to assist the public in flight line ops do we need a mission number to marshal our own CAP aircraft (say for o-rides, etc? Non mission stuff)

An AFAM is not needed to assist the public - in most cases air shows are done as corporate missions and many have no mission number at all.  However if you expect to receive any corporate or USAF support or benefits, you need to be qualified in anything you do.

Moving aircraft is a pretty standard part of regular wing operations, and its not unusual to have a number of aircraft moving on a ramp
for maintenance days, proficiency use, or as you mention, o-rides.  FLM is a term use only for operations covered under ES missions (including airshows), otherwise, you're just "some guy holding orange flashlights" - but if you walk into a Cessna Food Processor, or
wrap an airframe around a fixed object, you had better be qualified and authorized to do it or you'll be writing some big checks.

[RiverAux]

As an AOBD there is no way I would ever say that I could provide any amount of proper supervision to FLMs out on the ramp.  That is a receipe for chopped up FLMs.   I would never consider putting FLMs (especially cadet FLMs) out on a ramp without a supervisor. 

[Short Field]

Then your option as a AOBD is to not have anyone supervising the aircraft on the ramp - if the IC agrees with you.   If you don't need anyone on the ramp, why are you putting people out there to start with? 

[Eclipse]

Cadets should not be operating unsupervised regardless, but I could see adults being capable of avoiding the nasty end of an airplane without someone holding their hand.

Presumably any activity that required a flight line would also have at least one safety officer who would be keeping at least a cursory eye on the ramp.

[Short Field]

Aah, the Safety Officer.....a often overlooked and underutilized asset.

You are right - only a fool would have 12-18 year old kids wandering around moving airplanes without adult supervision.  Almost every mission base I have been to has a few senior members hanging around that are qualified to help park the aircraft with a little prior instruction.

[SarDragon]

Aah, the Safety Officer.....a often overlooked and underutilized asset.

You are right - only a fool would have 12-18 year old kids wandering around moving airplanes without adult supervision.  Almost every mission base I have been to has a few senior members hanging around that are qualified to help park the aircraft with a little prior instruction.

Interesting.

The Navy lets 18 and 19 year olds do this all the time.

[lordmonar]

Well hold on to you seats for this one boy-o's

Who says you MUST have a FLS? 

Must you have a GTL to deploy a ground team on a search? I would think that this is similar to flight line marshallers.

60-1 says you must have a GTL to sortie a ground team...but it does not say you have to have a FLS to marshal an aircraft. 

[lordmonar]

I would never consider putting FLMs (especially cadet FLMs) out on a ramp without a supervisor.

Not every FLM needs a supervisor.

On an average SAREX in my neck of the woods we sortie maybe 2-3 planes in an hour in a quiet corner of the flight line.

While an extra pair of eyes are handy....there is no NEED for a FLS just to supervise most of the FLMs.

If there are younger cadets and or trainees involved I may add more supervision....but he/she does not have to be a fully rated FLS just to supervise a bunch of FLMs.

[Short Field]

You are right - only a fool would have 12-18 year old kids wandering around moving airplanes without adult supervision.

The Navy lets 18 and 19 year olds do this all the time.

Yea, they are kind of short on the 12-18 year olds...

[SarDragon]

You're evading my point, so I'll be direct - what's the difference between a trained 18 yo CAP cadet, and a trained 18 yo sailor?

FWIW, my marshalling skilz exceeded those of one of the instructors in my Aviation Fundamentals School when I joined the Navy. These skilz were learned in CAP.

[Eclipse]

You're evading my point, so I'll be direct - what's the difference between a trained 18 yo CAP cadet, and a trained 18 yo sailor?

(Hint:  The cadets are the ones looking into the canyon of the Navy...)