Flightline Marshaling - Training and SQTR Signoffs

[DAWHALEN]

Hello all,
Can a mature cadet that is signed off on FLM, has his SET and is working on his FLS train and certify others with oversight from our unit Stan/Eval officer and Safety officer.

Is his Qual enough to sign off the new trainees or does it require a FLS.

I have done some searching, asking questions and such but have not found a definite answer.

Thanks

Daniel Whalen, Captain CAP
Commander
PCR-WA-110

[Larry Mangum]

Is your Stan/Eval oficer or Safety Officer a FLS?  FLM is an ES rating so unless they are they cannot supervise the training.

[JoeTomasone]

Anyone can train ES qualifications - even if they are not qualified in that specialty.   However, only someone currently qualified in that specialty (or a higher one) with SET can evaluate and do signoffs. 

That being said, not everyone who CAN train SHOULD train...   A good instructor turns out good students..  A bad instructor, well.....

[mynetdude]

the OP is asking if whether the FLM can sign off or must an FLS do sign offs... this takes a bit of common sense to figure out or we wouldn't need an FLS.

I am going through the same thing, I am almost FLM qualified and once I do I cannot teach FLM until I've become FLS.  AFAIK GTM can only be taught by a GTL as well.

I am waiting to hear back from the training director as to whether there is an FLS available to allow me to do FLM because a FLM cannot operate on the flight line without an FLS.

[lordmonar]

Some wings may be controlling who can be an evaluator.

Check with your Wing ES officer to see if they have implemented any different policies.

Other then that....yes a squared away cadet is more then qualified enough to be a FLM evaluator....especially as he has been approved to become a FLS.

[ßτε]

To evaluate tasks for FLM, one needs to be a FLM (or higher) for at least one year and have been approved at the wing level as a SET. It is possible for a cadet to have this.

Wings may have additional requirements. For instance, CAWG does not let FLM to sign off tasks, nor does it allow cadets to sign off tasks. See: http://www.cawg.cap.gov/Files/Pubs/OI/OI_13.pdf

[JoeTomasone]

for at least one year and have been approved at the wing level as a SET.

Cite, please.

[SarDragon]

CAPR 60-3, page 23, para 2-2.a.(1)

(1) Evaluators who are current and qualified supervisors as outlined on the NHQ CAP/DOS website must complete the current emergency services Skills Evaluator Training (SET) also outlined on the NHQ CAP/DOS website. SET will be reflected on the CAPF 101 with "NO EXPIRE". The member must also have held the specialty achievement qualification in which they are to evaluate for at least one year. Exceptions to the one year requirement can be approved by the wing commander or their designees in cases where the member's professional background meets the experience criteria.

[JoeTomasone]

CAPR 60-3, page 23, para 2-2.a.(1)

(1) Evaluators who are current and qualified supervisors as outlined on the NHQ CAP/DOS website must complete the current emergency services Skills Evaluator Training (SET) also outlined on the NHQ CAP/DOS website. SET will be reflected on the CAPF 101 with "NO EXPIRE". The member must also have held the specialty achievement qualification in which they are to evaluate for at least one year. Exceptions to the one year requirement can be approved by the wing commander or their designees in cases where the member's professional background meets the experience criteria.

Danke... That's a new requirement, I see...

[DC]

the OP is asking if whether the FLM can sign off or must an FLS do sign offs... this takes a bit of common sense to figure out or we wouldn't need an FLS.

I am going through the same thing, I am almost FLM qualified and once I do I cannot teach FLM until I've become FLS.  AFAIK GTM can only be taught by a GTL as well.

I am waiting to hear back from the training director as to whether there is an FLS available to allow me to do FLM because a FLM cannot operate on the flight line without an FLS.

No... The purpose of a FLS is to supervise multiple FLMs on a flight line, not train them. Same with a GTL.

See SarDragon's quote.

[mynetdude]

the OP is asking if whether the FLM can sign off or must an FLS do sign offs... this takes a bit of common sense to figure out or we wouldn't need an FLS.

I am going through the same thing, I am almost FLM qualified and once I do I cannot teach FLM until I've become FLS.  AFAIK GTM can only be taught by a GTL as well.

I am waiting to hear back from the training director as to whether there is an FLS available to allow me to do FLM because a FLM cannot operate on the flight line without an FLS.

No... The purpose of a FLS is to supervise multiple FLMs on a flight line, not train them. Same with a GTL.

See SarDragon's quote.

I had the impression I could not train FLMs unless I was FLS well it doesn't matter, I ned to be FLM for one year before I can do any sign offs... well that's just dandy!

[davidsinn]

I am an FLS. I do NOT train FLMs. That is not my job. My job is to run the flight line in a safe manner. I delegate training to trusted FLMs...Usually my wife.

[mynetdude]

I am an FLS. I do NOT train FLMs. That is not my job. My job is to run the flight line in a safe manner. I delegate training to trusted FLMs...Usually my wife.

But as a FLS you would train FLMs who want to become FLS.

Is there a document that explains that FLMs can do sign offs? Perhaps I was getting too far ahead of myself since a FLS is required for a FLM to operate on the flight line?

[davidsinn]

I am an FLS. I do NOT train FLMs. That is not my job. My job is to run the flight line in a safe manner. I delegate training to trusted FLMs...Usually my wife.

But as a FLS you would train FLMs who want to become FLS.

Is there a document that explains that FLMs can do sign offs? Perhaps I was getting too far ahead of myself since a FLS is required for a FLM to operate on the flight line?

60-3 one is what you are looking for. The relevant section was already posted. Yes I would train FLMs to become FLSs but I would not take a GES and train them to be an FLM. I don't have time to do that as my duties as FLS would preclude it.

[davedove]

I am an FLS. I do NOT train FLMs. That is not my job. My job is to run the flight line in a safe manner. I delegate training to trusted FLMs...Usually my wife.

But as a FLS you would train FLMs who want to become FLS.

Is there a document that explains that FLMs can do sign offs? Perhaps I was getting too far ahead of myself since a FLS is required for a FLM to operate on the flight line?

60-3 one is what you are looking for. The relevant section was already posted. Yes I would train FLMs to become FLSs but I would not take a GES and train them to be an FLM. I don't have time to do that as my duties as FLS would preclude it.

But, by the regs, you COULD train the FLM (assuming time allowed).

[DAWHALEN]

Thanks everyone for the information. Very impressed with the great amount of input! Seems to be a few opinions so I will run it all by our Wing ES folks just to be sure.
Our intent is certainly to train with professionalism and high quality. We certainly have the folks to do that.

[davidsinn]

I am an FLS. I do NOT train FLMs. That is not my job. My job is to run the flight line in a safe manner. I delegate training to trusted FLMs...Usually my wife.

But as a FLS you would train FLMs who want to become FLS.

Is there a document that explains that FLMs can do sign offs? Perhaps I was getting too far ahead of myself since a FLS is required for a FLM to operate on the flight line?

60-3 one is what you are looking for. The relevant section was already posted. Yes I would train FLMs to become FLSs but I would not take a GES and train them to be an FLM. I don't have time to do that as my duties as FLS would preclude it.

But, by the regs, you COULD train the FLM (assuming time allowed).

Correct. And I have done so actually. I don't like to do it, because the primary responsibility of the FLS is safety of the flight line and that's hard to do if you're in the trenches with the newbies fielding questions and teaching skills. I prefer to roam around the ramp area looking for hazards and generally keeping situational awareness for the whole operation.

[Short Field]

I would not take a GES and train them to be an FLM. I don't have time to do that as my duties as FLS would preclude it.

Gee, I guess I need to stop training anyone except a IC trainee. 

Most of your duties as a FLS once operations start involve briefing and supervising the FLMs.  I don't understand how you can brief and supervise them during an operation without assuming any responsibility for training them during the operation.  You must be running huge numbers of aircraft that are all launching at the same time.

[davidsinn]

I would not take a GES and train them to be an FLM. I don't have time to do that as my duties as FLS would preclude it.

Gee, I guess I need to stop training anyone except a IC trainee. 

Most of your duties as a FLS once operations start involve briefing and supervising the FLMs.  I don't understand how you can brief and supervise them during an operation without assuming any responsibility for training them during the operation.  You must be running huge numbers of aircraft that are all launching at the same time.

Yes I do tend to launch a lot of aircraft at once. My personal record is 7 within about half an hour. FLS responsibility go far beyond briefing and supervising FLMs. I coordinate with the FBO, I track the fueling of the aircraft, I'm in communication with the airboss to let him know that yes, CAP1234 is still on the ramp and no I don't know why you can't raise them on the VHF.

I'm not saying I never train FLMs. I train them before airops kick off in the morning and during breaks but when props are turning my attention is on where everyone is standing and are they paying attention to what's going on. I delegate the training of new FLMs to already qualified FLMs and never exceed a 2:1 trainee:trainer ratio because flight-line is one of the few places in CAP where a mistep could get you dead.

[heliodoc]

^^^^^^

I and others personally launched 12 -20 aircraft per hour with a combo of biz iron, GA spinners, DC-9 freighters, Convair 440/580's, 20 SA226 freighters EACH day and night and THAT was 25 yrs ago

Sounds like you are a ONE MAN ramp show...maybe you could delegate the keeping track of fueling to a responsibly train ed SM or cadet as part of that training program

This was an FBO and everyone was a FLM / FLS in some form or another and we were responsible for teaching the new guys the ropes on a VERY active ramp often and in contact on radios with ramp supervisors

THAT is a flight line out of CAP where a mistep could get even "deader" with turbine, light jet, and heavy jet movement

Maybe that is where CAP needs to draw experience from (the FBO operators) to assist in training events to do FLS....cuz in that environment...there is no shirking ANY responsibility nor saying that there is no training going or time to train DURING operations.

Better keep training FLM in CAP in same respects as the FBO's!!

[mynetdude]

^^^^^^

I and others personally launched 12 -20 aircraft per hour with a combo of biz iron, GA spinners, DC-9 freighters, Convair 440/580's, 20 SA226 freighters EACH day and night and THAT was 25 yrs ago

Sounds like you are a ONE MAN ramp show...maybe you could delegate the keeping track of fueling to a responsibly train ed SM or cadet as part of that training program

This was an FBO and everyone was a FLM / FLS in some form or another and we were responsible for teaching the new guys the ropes on a VERY active ramp often and in contact on radios with ramp supervisors

THAT is a flight line out of CAP where a mistep could get even "deader" with turbine, light jet, and heavy jet movement

Maybe that is where CAP needs to draw experience from (the FBO operators) to assist in training events to do FLS....cuz in that environment...there is no shirking ANY responsibility nor saying that there is no training going or time to train DURING operations.

Better keep training FLM in CAP in same respects as the FBO's!!

This is an excellent topic really, it would be AWESOME if some FBOs would offer training to CAP FLM/FLS and they even have a video that shows some of this stuff.  I was hoping to find training materials I could purchase online and so far I have not found anything really.  I have noticed that there are far more signals than what CAP teaches and I think it would be useful to know some of them.

[heliodoc]

^^^

I would suppose CAP would not need to know ALLL those hand signals.

BUT you could invite the local FBO(s) to work with CAP to do the training or a joint venture and have CAP SET types sign off after the training period.

By involving the FBO(s) there's a possibility of CAP gaining a little more respect and even the FBO(s) insurance (depending on ramp owners) would see a plus involving the volunteers time working with the operation

Some FBO's respect CAP and some do not.  But working with FBO(s) helps establish rapport and hopefully can eliminate some previous hard feelings towards CAP if there were ever those cases.  Nothing wrong with joint training operations

[lordmonar]

As it has been stated.....the FLS is the guy who is supervising the FLM and FLM trainees and signes off on the valuation.

There is nothing wrong with deligating the actual training and operational supervision.....so long as it is the FLS who does the evaluation.

In the USAF maintenance world this is the 3-5-7 level issue.

3 levels are trainees.  They must be directly supervised by a 5 level.

5 levels can work by themselves but all their work must be certified by a 7 level.

While I disagree with the ideal that MUST be a FLS to evaluate and certify a trainee....I can see the logic of the CAWG policy.

[Short Field]

While I disagree with the ideal that MUST be a FLS to evaluate and certify a trainee....I can see the logic of the CAWG policy.

That just goes back to the issue of limiting people with SET quals to the ones who can actually do a professional job of evaluating a trainee instead of racing to see how many people they can sign off in the shortest time possible.

[mynetdude]

^^^

I would suppose CAP would not need to know ALLL those hand signals.

BUT you could invite the local FBO(s) to work with CAP to do the training or a joint venture and have CAP SET types sign off after the training period.

By involving the FBO(s) there's a possibility of CAP gaining a little more respect and even the FBO(s) insurance (depending on ramp owners) would see a plus involving the volunteers time working with the operation

Some FBO's respect CAP and some do not.  But working with FBO(s) helps establish rapport and hopefully can eliminate some previous hard feelings towards CAP if there were ever those cases.  Nothing wrong with joint training operations

I realize that as CAP we may not need to know ALL of the signals, but it would be handy for a FLS to know more of the signals than your typical FLMs will for the rare special occassion a pilot might want something or the FBO wants you to do it a certain way for specific aircraft, etc?

[heliodoc]

Limiting people with the SET quals?

Well then, CAP better take the "SET test" out of the general ES testing area and start putting under the Commanders Restricted side of eServices, is that how we are to understand this?

IS there a SET Academy or FLM/FLS Academy in the US other than NESA?

Is that what it is going to come down to in CAP limiting SETs and trainers?

If that is going to happen...then there ought to a CAP funded SET Academy and FLS training site in every State?

Limiting the SET quals?? Better get it out of the ES test bank then to limit access....more of  "CAP power and control."

Never saw a "race" yet in CAP for sign offs  and really, like aerial detection, as I mentioned in another thread, FLM and FLS is NOT rocket science after one has spent it on some major military and civilian FBO ramps.

Only CAP could make a project out of something by "limiting" SET quals WOOOOW!!  Define a Professional job in CAP?  Is that civilian acquired skills that are transferred in to CAP from the outside or is it training acquired through only CAP? 

Better have some good definite reasons other than "signoff races" to limit SET quals.  The SET "exam" is so lame anyways that even a K-12 teacher could teach FLS / FLM skills.  Those folks HAVE the credentials to teach....CAP going to require college level education to teach as a SET?? How would one argue with that?  Does CAP need  CFI levels or does CAP need to make an exam to the tune of FAA AGI to even teach this skills?? 

[Eclipse]

Well then, CAP better take the "SET test" out of the general ES testing area and start putting under the Commanders Restricted side of eServices, is that how we are to understand this?

The epic nature of your misunderstanding of CAP is the most humorous part of your posts - the fact that you constantly try to denigrate the organization using the same flawed understanding is the capper to your credibility.

As defined by the system and the program today, with no changes necessary, the Commander at each echelon is the final arbiter of whether he will accept someone signing off someone else, and they are free to set a local policy as to who may, or may not be an SET.

Having taken the test online merely means your are eligible to be an SET, not that your signature means anything to anyone.

[heliodoc]

^^^

READ the post previous posts ....  limiting SET quals?  What happens if MR SET qual isn't on the airfield?  Going to stop all operations?  Or do you keep training trainees til FLM turns FLS...think I don't understand?

I wouldn't make toooo many  assertions of credibility...some folks have dressed you down, a few times, Eclipse.  I am nothing special AND surely you and your commentary is rated about the same

You again?  Epic nature?  Misunderstanding of CAP?  Not on your life, Mister.

Thanks for the info 

[Eclipse]

I wouldn't make toooo many  assertions of credibility...some folks have dressed you down, a few times, Eclipse.

The difference being that I am rarely if ever knocked for constantly berating the organization - wrong is wrong, attitude is everything.

[Short Field]

What happens if MR SET qual isn't on the airfield?  Going to stop all operations?  Or do you keep training trainees til FLM turns FLS...think I don't understand?

Anyone can train.  Only SET qualified for that ES achievement can evaluate them and sign them off. 

If MR SET qual isn't on the airfield, no one is getting signed off. 

[mynetdude]

What happens if MR SET qual isn't on the airfield?  Going to stop all operations?  Or do you keep training trainees til FLM turns FLS...think I don't understand?

Anyone can train.  Only SET qualified for that ES achievement can evaluate them and sign them off. 

If MR SET qual isn't on the airfield, no one is getting signed off.

shouldn't even be on the air field/flight line without a SET person or worse without an FLS anyway.

[Short Field]

Never saw a "race" yet in CAP for sign offs 

I am happy for you.  I have seen too  many people who got qualified and immediately started "training" their friends and signing them off. 

[mynetdude]

Limiting people with the SET quals?

Well then, CAP better take the "SET test" out of the general ES testing area and start putting under the Commanders Restricted side of eServices, is that how we are to understand this?

IS there a SET Academy or FLM/FLS Academy in the US other than NESA?

Is that what it is going to come down to in CAP limiting SETs and trainers?

If that is going to happen...then there ought to a CAP funded SET Academy and FLS training site in every State?

Limiting the SET quals?? Better get it out of the ES test bank then to limit access....more of  "CAP power and control."

Never saw a "race" yet in CAP for sign offs  and really, like aerial detection, as I mentioned in another thread, FLM and FLS is NOT rocket science after one has spent it on some major military and civilian FBO ramps.

Only CAP could make a project out of something by "limiting" SET quals WOOOOW!!  Define a Professional job in CAP?  Is that civilian acquired skills that are transferred in to CAP from the outside or is it training acquired through only CAP? 

Better have some good definite reasons other than "signoff races" to limit SET quals.  The SET "exam" is so lame anyways that even a K-12 teacher could teach FLS / FLM skills.  Those folks HAVE the credentials to teach....CAP going to require college level education to teach as a SET?? How would one argue with that?  Does CAP need  CFI levels or does CAP need to make an exam to the tune of FAA AGI to even teach this skills??

I am surprised NESA doesn't have FLM/FLS training considering they have the MAS it would be perfect, I don't know how many CAP aircraft show up for NESA but I'd personally use NESA as a starting point to advance my training and hone it and if David Sinn were there FWIW I don't know him but I'd want him to be my instructor despite how mean he might be

Since you asked, NBB technically is the FLM/FLS school amongst other training that is available such as UDF

[mynetdude]

Never saw a "race" yet in CAP for sign offs 

I am happy for you.  I have seen too  many people who got qualified and immediately started "training" their friends and signing them off.

There is nothing wrong with someone training their friends and signing them off IF they do it properly and effectively. 

If I am unsure someone is able to perform the task safely and properly then I won't sign them off whether or not they are my friends.  Sometimes I myself am not sure, sure I know how but I need to be more comfortable in what I am doing.  Flight line work isn't one of those, 'oops I made a mistake" cuz you won't live to say it.

[Eclipse]

shouldn't even be on the air field/flight line without a SET person or worse without an FLS anyway.

An SET is not required or even expected to be onsite or involved during operations - they are a training resource only and have no specific
authority or place in ICS.

[mynetdude]

shouldn't even be on the air field/flight line without a SET person or worse without an FLS anyway.

An SET is not required or even expected to be onsite or involved during operations - they are a training resource only and have no specific
authority or place in ICS.

True a SET person does NOT to be present during operational periods, I suppose they can be training without a SET that's fine so I suppose I could train people but I couldn't sign them off.  I am not even qualified, let alone I would not be permitted on the flight line without an FLS even during training so to speak.

It only takes 10-15 minutes to take the SET test, 20 questions multiple choice and unless your wing/squadron will only recognize certain SETs almost everybody I know is a SET person.

[lordmonar]

Well hold on to you seats for this one boy-o's

Who says you MUST have a FLS? 

[mynetdude]

Well hold on to you seats for this one boy-o's

Who says you MUST have a FLS? 

Must you have a GTL to deploy a ground team on a search? I would think that this is similar to flight line marshallers.

[Short Field]

Not even close.  Flight-line operations come under the purview of the AOBD.  The FLS works for the AOBD.  If there is no FLS, then the FLMs work directly for the AOBD.

[mynetdude]

Not even close.  Flight-line operations come under the purview of the AOBD.  The FLS works for the AOBD.  If there is no FLS, then the FLMs work directly for the AOBD.

That makes no sense, why do we need FLS if FLMs can work directly with AOBDs?

[Eclipse]

Not even close.  Flight-line operations come under the purview of the AOBD.  The FLS works for the AOBD.  If there is no FLS, then the FLMs work directly for the AOBD.

That makes no sense, why do we need FLS if FLMs can work directly with AOBDs?

For starters, not all flight lines are complex enough to require that many FLMs, and thus another expansion of span of control.

GTM's work independent of the mission base and therefore need local command, FLM's don't.

[mynetdude]

Not even close.  Flight-line operations come under the purview of the AOBD.  The FLS works for the AOBD.  If there is no FLS, then the FLMs work directly for the AOBD.

That makes no sense, why do we need FLS if FLMs can work directly with AOBDs?

For starters, not all flight lines are complex enough to require that many FLMs, and thus another expansion of span of control.

GTM's work independent of the mission base and therefore need local command, FLM's don't.

Ok that makes sense, that still does not resolve the issue why we need a FLS unless they are reserved for larger flight lines.

Is there any regulation that stipulates that a FLS is not required for FLM ops?

[SarDragon]

I've seen more small mission flight line operations run without predefined FLS/FLM assets than I have seen with. Up until my quals ran out, I frequently became the defacto FLM/FLS when I showed up, and most of the time, my participation in that capacity was not really required.

[ßτε]

Ok that makes sense, that still does not resolve the issue why we need a FLS unless they are reserved for larger flight lines.

Is there any regulation that stipulates that a FLS is not required for FLM ops?

Better yet, find where it says that FLS is required.

[davidsinn]

Limiting people with the SET quals?

Well then, CAP better take the "SET test" out of the general ES testing area and start putting under the Commanders Restricted side of eServices, is that how we are to understand this?

IS there a SET Academy or FLM/FLS Academy in the US other than NESA?

Is that what it is going to come down to in CAP limiting SETs and trainers?

If that is going to happen...then there ought to a CAP funded SET Academy and FLS training site in every State?

Limiting the SET quals?? Better get it out of the ES test bank then to limit access....more of  "CAP power and control."

Never saw a "race" yet in CAP for sign offs  and really, like aerial detection, as I mentioned in another thread, FLM and FLS is NOT rocket science after one has spent it on some major military and civilian FBO ramps.

Only CAP could make a project out of something by "limiting" SET quals WOOOOW!!  Define a Professional job in CAP?  Is that civilian acquired skills that are transferred in to CAP from the outside or is it training acquired through only CAP? 

Better have some good definite reasons other than "signoff races" to limit SET quals.  The SET "exam" is so lame anyways that even a K-12 teacher could teach FLS / FLM skills.  Those folks HAVE the credentials to teach....CAP going to require college level education to teach as a SET?? How would one argue with that?  Does CAP need  CFI levels or does CAP need to make an exam to the tune of FAA AGI to even teach this skills??

I am surprised NESA doesn't have FLM/FLS training considering they have the MAS it would be perfect, I don't know how many CAP aircraft show up for NESA but I'd personally use NESA as a starting point to advance my training and hone it and if David Sinn were there FWIW I don't know him but I'd want him to be my instructor despite how mean he might be

Since you asked, NBB technically is the FLM/FLS school amongst other training that is available such as UDF

I'd love to go to NESA. I'm most interested in going to MAS and someday I'll get there. If we could run a week long flightline with 20+ airplanes that would rock.

[mynetdude]

Ok that makes sense, that still does not resolve the issue why we need a FLS unless they are reserved for larger flight lines.

Is there any regulation that stipulates that a FLS is not required for FLM ops?

Better yet, find where it says that FLS is required.

Ok.... this really makes me mad... now I just want to put myself in a closet and HIDE!!! (no fault of yours or anyone elses)

[SarDragon]

QUALIFIED SUPERVISOR CHART

[mynetdude]

QUALIFIED SUPERVISOR CHART

This is an AWESOME link!!!!

[mynetdude]

seems I beat this thread to death, awesome answers and worthwhile discussions prove all my misconceptions.

last question, since an AFAM mission # is needed to assist the public in flight line ops do we need a mission number to marshal our own CAP aircraft (say for o-rides, etc? Non mission stuff)

[Eclipse]

seems I beat this thread to death, awesome answers and worthwhile discussions prove all my misconceptions.

last question, since an AFAM mission # is needed to assist the public in flight line ops do we need a mission number to marshal our own CAP aircraft (say for o-rides, etc? Non mission stuff)

An AFAM is not needed to assist the public - in most cases air shows are done as corporate missions and many have no mission number at all.  However if you expect to receive any corporate or USAF support or benefits, you need to be qualified in anything you do.

Moving aircraft is a pretty standard part of regular wing operations, and its not unusual to have a number of aircraft moving on a ramp
for maintenance days, proficiency use, or as you mention, o-rides.  FLM is a term use only for operations covered under ES missions (including airshows), otherwise, you're just "some guy holding orange flashlights" - but if you walk into a Cessna Food Processor, or
wrap an airframe around a fixed object, you had better be qualified and authorized to do it or you'll be writing some big checks.

[RiverAux]

As an AOBD there is no way I would ever say that I could provide any amount of proper supervision to FLMs out on the ramp.  That is a receipe for chopped up FLMs.   I would never consider putting FLMs (especially cadet FLMs) out on a ramp without a supervisor. 

[Short Field]

Then your option as a AOBD is to not have anyone supervising the aircraft on the ramp - if the IC agrees with you.   If you don't need anyone on the ramp, why are you putting people out there to start with? 

[Eclipse]

Cadets should not be operating unsupervised regardless, but I could see adults being capable of avoiding the nasty end of an airplane without someone holding their hand.

Presumably any activity that required a flight line would also have at least one safety officer who would be keeping at least a cursory eye on the ramp.

[Short Field]

Aah, the Safety Officer.....a often overlooked and underutilized asset.

You are right - only a fool would have 12-18 year old kids wandering around moving airplanes without adult supervision.  Almost every mission base I have been to has a few senior members hanging around that are qualified to help park the aircraft with a little prior instruction.

[SarDragon]

Aah, the Safety Officer.....a often overlooked and underutilized asset.

You are right - only a fool would have 12-18 year old kids wandering around moving airplanes without adult supervision.  Almost every mission base I have been to has a few senior members hanging around that are qualified to help park the aircraft with a little prior instruction.

Interesting.

The Navy lets 18 and 19 year olds do this all the time.

[lordmonar]

Well hold on to you seats for this one boy-o's

Who says you MUST have a FLS? 

Must you have a GTL to deploy a ground team on a search? I would think that this is similar to flight line marshallers.

60-1 says you must have a GTL to sortie a ground team...but it does not say you have to have a FLS to marshal an aircraft. 

[lordmonar]

I would never consider putting FLMs (especially cadet FLMs) out on a ramp without a supervisor.

Not every FLM needs a supervisor.

On an average SAREX in my neck of the woods we sortie maybe 2-3 planes in an hour in a quiet corner of the flight line.

While an extra pair of eyes are handy....there is no NEED for a FLS just to supervise most of the FLMs.

If there are younger cadets and or trainees involved I may add more supervision....but he/she does not have to be a fully rated FLS just to supervise a bunch of FLMs.

[Short Field]

You are right - only a fool would have 12-18 year old kids wandering around moving airplanes without adult supervision.

The Navy lets 18 and 19 year olds do this all the time.

Yea, they are kind of short on the 12-18 year olds...

[SarDragon]

You're evading my point, so I'll be direct - what's the difference between a trained 18 yo CAP cadet, and a trained 18 yo sailor?

FWIW, my marshalling skilz exceeded those of one of the instructors in my Aviation Fundamentals School when I joined the Navy. These skilz were learned in CAP.

[Eclipse]

You're evading my point, so I'll be direct - what's the difference between a trained 18 yo CAP cadet, and a trained 18 yo sailor?

(Hint:  The cadets are the ones looking into the canyon of the Navy...)

[SJFedor]

Limiting people with the SET quals?

Well then, CAP better take the "SET test" out of the general ES testing area and start putting under the Commanders Restricted side of eServices, is that how we are to understand this?

IS there a SET Academy or FLM/FLS Academy in the US other than NESA?

Is that what it is going to come down to in CAP limiting SETs and trainers?

If that is going to happen...then there ought to a CAP funded SET Academy and FLS training site in every State?

Limiting the SET quals?? Better get it out of the ES test bank then to limit access....more of  "CAP power and control."

Never saw a "race" yet in CAP for sign offs  and really, like aerial detection, as I mentioned in another thread, FLM and FLS is NOT rocket science after one has spent it on some major military and civilian FBO ramps.

Only CAP could make a project out of something by "limiting" SET quals WOOOOW!!  Define a Professional job in CAP?  Is that civilian acquired skills that are transferred in to CAP from the outside or is it training acquired through only CAP? 

Better have some good definite reasons other than "signoff races" to limit SET quals.  The SET "exam" is so lame anyways that even a K-12 teacher could teach FLS / FLM skills.  Those folks HAVE the credentials to teach....CAP going to require college level education to teach as a SET?? How would one argue with that?  Does CAP need  CFI levels or does CAP need to make an exam to the tune of FAA AGI to even teach this skills??

I am surprised NESA doesn't have FLM/FLS training considering they have the MAS it would be perfect, I don't know how many CAP aircraft show up for NESA but I'd personally use NESA as a starting point to advance my training and hone it and if David Sinn were there FWIW I don't know him but I'd want him to be my instructor despite how mean he might be

Since you asked, NBB technically is the FLM/FLS school amongst other training that is available such as UDF

I'd love to go to NESA. I'm most interested in going to MAS and someday I'll get there. If we could run a week long flightline with 20+ airplanes that would rock.

My first year at NESA I believe we had 22-24 birds on the ramp. Last year I don't remember, this year I'd say we can expect 30+.

NESA MAS has a small crew of FLM/FLS personnel that run our line for us. Most of these people are former NESA grads from other schools who came over to help. I've never heard of them planning on doing anything as far as a formal "training" program, but then again, the NESA flightline can be so busy (read: fast paced but safe so that we can accomplish everything we need to for the large amount of students we have) at times that it might not be the best place for people to be learning.

But it really is a neat sight to see a conga line of 20 CAP aircraft taxiing out for departure... 

[RiverAux]

Then your option as a AOBD is to not have anyone supervising the aircraft on the ramp - if the IC agrees with you.   If you don't need anyone on the ramp, why are you putting people out there to start with?

We don't generally.  I don't think we really need people on the ramp most of the time, if at all.  As far as I can tell, the only reason we have FLMs is to give cadets something to do.

[Short Field]

You're evading my point, so I'll be direct - what's the difference between a trained 18 yo CAP cadet, and a trained 18 yo sailor?

A trained 18 yo sailor has a legal and moral contract with the US Navy that puts the sailor at unlimited liability whenever and however the Navy decides.  A trained 18 yo cadet and his parents have a contract with CAP that promises we will not abuse or endanger the cadet.  Just a tad different...

Old topic but the bottom line is that a cadet is a cadet and requires adult supervision for ES operations.  That is why cadet GTLs must have a senior member on the team and that cadet MPs cannot fly other cadets.  Not my rule - CAP's rule.  If you want to argue the different between a 18 year old cadet and a 18 year old SM, knock yourself out.  While you are at it please address the supervision requirements for each of other six ages in the 12-18 year old group other than the 18 year olds. 

FYI:  I was wearing RM strips in my teens and a high school bud earned the MOH (posthumously) his first year out of high school.

[Short Field]

I don't think we really need people on the ramp most of the time, if at all.  As far as I can tell, the only reason we have FLMs is to give cadets something to do.

We normally have very few cadets show up to be FLMs.  We do have several SMs who are limited in other duties but can handle FLM duties very well that show up a lot.  I find that if you have FLMs who can keep the aircraft secure and supervise the refueling operation, get the fuel receipts, etc, it can knock 20-30 minutes off the debriefing process.

[RiverAux]

If that is all the FLMs are doing, I suppose I wouldn't have a problem with an unsupervised senior member FLM doing that.  But, if anyone is marshalling aircraft then they should be doing it with an FLS on scene or not at all. 

[Short Field]

It is all a matter of degrees.  As long as the people are doing functions they are trained to do and doing them safely, there should be no issues.