Flightline Marshaling - Training and SQTR Signoffs

[DAWHALEN]

Hello all,
Can a mature cadet that is signed off on FLM, has his SET and is working on his FLS train and certify others with oversight from our unit Stan/Eval officer and Safety officer.

Is his Qual enough to sign off the new trainees or does it require a FLS.

I have done some searching, asking questions and such but have not found a definite answer.

Thanks

Daniel Whalen, Captain CAP
Commander
PCR-WA-110

[Larry Mangum]

Is your Stan/Eval oficer or Safety Officer a FLS?  FLM is an ES rating so unless they are they cannot supervise the training.

[JoeTomasone]

Anyone can train ES qualifications - even if they are not qualified in that specialty.   However, only someone currently qualified in that specialty (or a higher one) with SET can evaluate and do signoffs. 

That being said, not everyone who CAN train SHOULD train...   A good instructor turns out good students..  A bad instructor, well.....

[mynetdude]

the OP is asking if whether the FLM can sign off or must an FLS do sign offs... this takes a bit of common sense to figure out or we wouldn't need an FLS.

I am going through the same thing, I am almost FLM qualified and once I do I cannot teach FLM until I've become FLS.  AFAIK GTM can only be taught by a GTL as well.

I am waiting to hear back from the training director as to whether there is an FLS available to allow me to do FLM because a FLM cannot operate on the flight line without an FLS.

[lordmonar]

Some wings may be controlling who can be an evaluator.

Check with your Wing ES officer to see if they have implemented any different policies.

Other then that....yes a squared away cadet is more then qualified enough to be a FLM evaluator....especially as he has been approved to become a FLS.

[ßτε]

To evaluate tasks for FLM, one needs to be a FLM (or higher) for at least one year and have been approved at the wing level as a SET. It is possible for a cadet to have this.

Wings may have additional requirements. For instance, CAWG does not let FLM to sign off tasks, nor does it allow cadets to sign off tasks. See: http://www.cawg.cap.gov/Files/Pubs/OI/OI_13.pdf

[JoeTomasone]

for at least one year and have been approved at the wing level as a SET.

Cite, please.

[SarDragon]

CAPR 60-3, page 23, para 2-2.a.(1)

(1) Evaluators who are current and qualified supervisors as outlined on the NHQ CAP/DOS website must complete the current emergency services Skills Evaluator Training (SET) also outlined on the NHQ CAP/DOS website. SET will be reflected on the CAPF 101 with "NO EXPIRE". The member must also have held the specialty achievement qualification in which they are to evaluate for at least one year. Exceptions to the one year requirement can be approved by the wing commander or their designees in cases where the member's professional background meets the experience criteria.

[JoeTomasone]

CAPR 60-3, page 23, para 2-2.a.(1)

(1) Evaluators who are current and qualified supervisors as outlined on the NHQ CAP/DOS website must complete the current emergency services Skills Evaluator Training (SET) also outlined on the NHQ CAP/DOS website. SET will be reflected on the CAPF 101 with "NO EXPIRE". The member must also have held the specialty achievement qualification in which they are to evaluate for at least one year. Exceptions to the one year requirement can be approved by the wing commander or their designees in cases where the member's professional background meets the experience criteria.

Danke... That's a new requirement, I see...

[DC]

the OP is asking if whether the FLM can sign off or must an FLS do sign offs... this takes a bit of common sense to figure out or we wouldn't need an FLS.

I am going through the same thing, I am almost FLM qualified and once I do I cannot teach FLM until I've become FLS.  AFAIK GTM can only be taught by a GTL as well.

I am waiting to hear back from the training director as to whether there is an FLS available to allow me to do FLM because a FLM cannot operate on the flight line without an FLS.

No... The purpose of a FLS is to supervise multiple FLMs on a flight line, not train them. Same with a GTL.

See SarDragon's quote.

[mynetdude]

the OP is asking if whether the FLM can sign off or must an FLS do sign offs... this takes a bit of common sense to figure out or we wouldn't need an FLS.

I am going through the same thing, I am almost FLM qualified and once I do I cannot teach FLM until I've become FLS.  AFAIK GTM can only be taught by a GTL as well.

I am waiting to hear back from the training director as to whether there is an FLS available to allow me to do FLM because a FLM cannot operate on the flight line without an FLS.

No... The purpose of a FLS is to supervise multiple FLMs on a flight line, not train them. Same with a GTL.

See SarDragon's quote.

I had the impression I could not train FLMs unless I was FLS well it doesn't matter, I ned to be FLM for one year before I can do any sign offs... well that's just dandy!

[davidsinn]

I am an FLS. I do NOT train FLMs. That is not my job. My job is to run the flight line in a safe manner. I delegate training to trusted FLMs...Usually my wife.

[mynetdude]

I am an FLS. I do NOT train FLMs. That is not my job. My job is to run the flight line in a safe manner. I delegate training to trusted FLMs...Usually my wife.

But as a FLS you would train FLMs who want to become FLS.

Is there a document that explains that FLMs can do sign offs? Perhaps I was getting too far ahead of myself since a FLS is required for a FLM to operate on the flight line?

[davidsinn]

I am an FLS. I do NOT train FLMs. That is not my job. My job is to run the flight line in a safe manner. I delegate training to trusted FLMs...Usually my wife.

But as a FLS you would train FLMs who want to become FLS.

Is there a document that explains that FLMs can do sign offs? Perhaps I was getting too far ahead of myself since a FLS is required for a FLM to operate on the flight line?

60-3 one is what you are looking for. The relevant section was already posted. Yes I would train FLMs to become FLSs but I would not take a GES and train them to be an FLM. I don't have time to do that as my duties as FLS would preclude it.

[davedove]

I am an FLS. I do NOT train FLMs. That is not my job. My job is to run the flight line in a safe manner. I delegate training to trusted FLMs...Usually my wife.

But as a FLS you would train FLMs who want to become FLS.

Is there a document that explains that FLMs can do sign offs? Perhaps I was getting too far ahead of myself since a FLS is required for a FLM to operate on the flight line?

60-3 one is what you are looking for. The relevant section was already posted. Yes I would train FLMs to become FLSs but I would not take a GES and train them to be an FLM. I don't have time to do that as my duties as FLS would preclude it.

But, by the regs, you COULD train the FLM (assuming time allowed).

[DAWHALEN]

Thanks everyone for the information. Very impressed with the great amount of input! Seems to be a few opinions so I will run it all by our Wing ES folks just to be sure.
Our intent is certainly to train with professionalism and high quality. We certainly have the folks to do that.

[davidsinn]

I am an FLS. I do NOT train FLMs. That is not my job. My job is to run the flight line in a safe manner. I delegate training to trusted FLMs...Usually my wife.

But as a FLS you would train FLMs who want to become FLS.

Is there a document that explains that FLMs can do sign offs? Perhaps I was getting too far ahead of myself since a FLS is required for a FLM to operate on the flight line?

60-3 one is what you are looking for. The relevant section was already posted. Yes I would train FLMs to become FLSs but I would not take a GES and train them to be an FLM. I don't have time to do that as my duties as FLS would preclude it.

But, by the regs, you COULD train the FLM (assuming time allowed).

Correct. And I have done so actually. I don't like to do it, because the primary responsibility of the FLS is safety of the flight line and that's hard to do if you're in the trenches with the newbies fielding questions and teaching skills. I prefer to roam around the ramp area looking for hazards and generally keeping situational awareness for the whole operation.

[Short Field]

I would not take a GES and train them to be an FLM. I don't have time to do that as my duties as FLS would preclude it.

Gee, I guess I need to stop training anyone except a IC trainee. 

Most of your duties as a FLS once operations start involve briefing and supervising the FLMs.  I don't understand how you can brief and supervise them during an operation without assuming any responsibility for training them during the operation.  You must be running huge numbers of aircraft that are all launching at the same time.

[davidsinn]

I would not take a GES and train them to be an FLM. I don't have time to do that as my duties as FLS would preclude it.

Gee, I guess I need to stop training anyone except a IC trainee. 

Most of your duties as a FLS once operations start involve briefing and supervising the FLMs.  I don't understand how you can brief and supervise them during an operation without assuming any responsibility for training them during the operation.  You must be running huge numbers of aircraft that are all launching at the same time.

Yes I do tend to launch a lot of aircraft at once. My personal record is 7 within about half an hour. FLS responsibility go far beyond briefing and supervising FLMs. I coordinate with the FBO, I track the fueling of the aircraft, I'm in communication with the airboss to let him know that yes, CAP1234 is still on the ramp and no I don't know why you can't raise them on the VHF.

I'm not saying I never train FLMs. I train them before airops kick off in the morning and during breaks but when props are turning my attention is on where everyone is standing and are they paying attention to what's going on. I delegate the training of new FLMs to already qualified FLMs and never exceed a 2:1 trainee:trainer ratio because flight-line is one of the few places in CAP where a mistep could get you dead.

[heliodoc]

^^^^^^

I and others personally launched 12 -20 aircraft per hour with a combo of biz iron, GA spinners, DC-9 freighters, Convair 440/580's, 20 SA226 freighters EACH day and night and THAT was 25 yrs ago

Sounds like you are a ONE MAN ramp show...maybe you could delegate the keeping track of fueling to a responsibly train ed SM or cadet as part of that training program

This was an FBO and everyone was a FLM / FLS in some form or another and we were responsible for teaching the new guys the ropes on a VERY active ramp often and in contact on radios with ramp supervisors

THAT is a flight line out of CAP where a mistep could get even "deader" with turbine, light jet, and heavy jet movement

Maybe that is where CAP needs to draw experience from (the FBO operators) to assist in training events to do FLS....cuz in that environment...there is no shirking ANY responsibility nor saying that there is no training going or time to train DURING operations.

Better keep training FLM in CAP in same respects as the FBO's!!