To crab or not to crab

[Flying Pig]

What are the thoughts.  I find the wing low method somewhat challenging.  I landed at a small 2000ft runway that was about as wide as the gear in a 90 degree 20 kt. cross wind. Duty related and needed to land.  Not to be confused with Get thereitis!  I entered final with a side slip established and was able to maintain a straight ground track.  I "somewhat" gently touched down on my right gear which was the low wing.  I could sense that I was still being blown sideways.  I powered up, went around and crabbed in.  Like we are taught, I held the crab until the last possible second then straightened out for touch down then held aileron into the wind.  No flaps on either approach.  That actually worked pretty well.  I had some slight side loading right as I touched but nothing that I was concerned with.

Thoughts.  Do I just need to work on my x-wind landings?  Experiences, tips?  This is in a TC206H with full Vortex Generators.

[PHall]

The way I was taught was pretty the same way you were taught.
Crab on final, a boot to the rudder in the flare and plant it.

[flynd94]

In a straight wing aircraft you can you use either the side slip or crab/kick.  Both work just great.  I always taught my students both methods but, preferred the side slip.

My belief was it allowed them to get stabilized on final.  You can adjust the amount of slip needed as you continue down final.  Now, remember that as you round out/flare, you have to increase the amount of slip due to the fact that the aileron's are less effective.

The crab/kick method introduces a attitude change close to the runway, at a time that you don't want to be making unnecessary changes.  Plus, remember that in using this method you are actually transitioning to a side slip, when you do the kick.  A common fault of pilots is to kick out to early, or not maintain alignment with the runway center line.  This gives you a side load, which is undesirable.

The key to a great crab/kick is to hold the crab in until the last moment.  This takes time/experience to develop that "feeling" of when to kick out.  Now, if you are flying a swept wing aircraft you only use the crab/kick method.  This is due to the aerodynamics of the swept wing.

I find that I am still established in the crab in the flare and,  time my kick with my wheels touching down.  In a swept wing aircraft the saying goes "you only slip, as far as you want to fall".

Hope this helps.

Keith

[Short Field]

Some of the more experienced instructors around here recommend dropping your wing and correcting with rudder earlier to make sure you have enough rudder to keep you straight in the crosswind.  If you need more rudder authority, keep your airspeed up until you are on the ground.

[bosshawk]

Rob: what you did sounds like just what I do if faced with a strong crosswind.  That shouldn't get you in trouble.

[sparks]

Both methods work but I prefer and teach the slip. A 20 knot direct crosswind exceeds the POH in all of the aircraft I fly. Maybe the 206 has a  higher limit.

[SJFedor]

I find that I am still established in the crab in the flare and,  time my kick with my wheels touching down.  In a swept wing aircraft the saying goes "you only slip, as far as you want to fall".

I did notice that. Me and a friend got a chance to play in the Delta simulators in ATL last May. SimTech wanted to give me a run for my money, so flamed out an engine on me, and I ended up really high. Maybe 4000ft AGL at about a 2.5-3 mile final. So, I put a 737-800 in a slip, albeit in a simulator. Thing dropped like a stone!

And I got it on the runway

[Trung Si Ma]

I use either onto pavement, but am partial to the sideslip into grass, particularly if going into a small strip with lots of tree's around.

[DG]

It really depends on what airplane you are in.

In our high wing Cessnas, the wing down into the wind with top rudder is preferred.  To fly a stabilized final at minimum airspeed.

For airplanes like the Cirrus, you must fly a crabbed final.  Also for the Airbus.

If you fly wing down, top rudder in a 747, you are likely to lose an engine.

The most common error is landing with an air speed that is too high.  Almost every time you will have trouble, that is the reason.

[Mustang]

Crab on final, a boot to the rudder in the flare and plant it.

That works in a heavy airplane, but I wouldn't recommend it in a light GA airplane.  A better technique is a gentle transition from a crab to a sideslip on short final, not in the flare. "Kicking" opposite rudder might well induce more of a rolling action than desired, exposing the undersurface of the upwind wing to the wind which could make matters even worse.  Again, it's standard procedure for airliners and other big jets, but not for little airplanes.

Kicking out crab at the moment of touchdown is something only someone with superhuman flying skills like Keith should attempt. 

[heliodoc]

Rob

Pretty much as I was taught and where I flew jumpers, x winds were the a factor ALL of the time.  So my experience when it was tight, was a go around just like you indicated.

Your question on cross wind landings.....  You can never do TOO many
When I feel like I am rusty and I can find a C note ....I'll fly another aircraft , usually the jumper acft, I'll go find cross winds.

I am not too apt to do in CAP aircraft aircraft UNLESS I got an instructor along who at least has 1 more cross wind landing than I do and with some of the risk adverse things going on in CAP, I will continue to do crosswinds in rental aircraft.

[PHall]

Crab on final, a boot to the rudder in the flare and plant it.

That works in a heavy airplane, but I wouldn't recommend it in a light GA airplane.  A better technique is a gentle transition from a crab to a sideslip on short final, not in the flare. "Kicking" opposite rudder might well induce more of a rolling action than desired, exposing the undersurface of the upwind wing to the wind which could make matters even worse.  Again, it's standard procedure for airliners and other big jets, but not for little airplanes.

Kicking out crab at the moment of touchdown is something only someone with superhuman flying skills like Keith should attempt. 

Okay, I may have confused you with the terminology.

When you pull the power in the flare you apply the required amount of rudder to line you up with the runway and then touch down. The idea is to minimise the time from pulling the power to touchdown to reduce the amount of "weathervaning" the airplane does before touchdown.

Does that help your understanding of what I was trying to say?

[CadetProgramGuy]

You may have been outside of the Crosswidn component for your aircraft....

20kts 90 degrees off your wing is a hefty x-wind component.

[Flying Pig]

There is no ATIS or AWOS there.  So it was my estimate by the sock.  If Im not mistaken, there was a funnel cloud right off the departure end as well that I had to dodge!

[JGremlin]

You may have been outside of the Crosswidn component for your aircraft....

20kts 90 degrees off your wing is a hefty x-wind component.

The max crosswind component for an aircraft is whatever you can get it to do. The number listed in the POH is the max demonstrated crosswind component. That means its the most that the manufacturer and their lawyers decided to test the aircraft to. But that number is not limiting, If you can get it down safely in higher winds, its perfectly legal for you to do so as far as FAA is concerned.

A 20kt crosswind is high for a Cessna but there's no reason that most models won't be able to handle it safely IME.

[CadetProgramGuy]

You may have been outside of the Crosswidn component for your aircraft....

20kts 90 degrees off your wing is a hefty x-wind component.

The max crosswind component for an aircraft is whatever you can get it to do. The number listed in the POH is the max demonstrated crosswind component. That means its the most that the manufacturer and their lawyers decided to test the aircraft to. But that number is not limiting, If you can get it down safely in higher winds, its perfectly legal for you to do so as far as FAA is concerned.

A 20kt crosswind is high for a Cessna but there's no reason that most models won't be able to handle it safely IME.

Good luck explaining that to any lawyer when you auger in an aircraft.

[JGremlin]

You may have been outside of the Crosswidn component for your aircraft....

20kts 90 degrees off your wing is a hefty x-wind component.

The max crosswind component for an aircraft is whatever you can get it to do. The number listed in the POH is the max demonstrated crosswind component. That means its the most that the manufacturer and their lawyers decided to test the aircraft to. But that number is not limiting, If you can get it down safely in higher winds, its perfectly legal for you to do so as far as FAA is concerned.

A 20kt crosswind is high for a Cessna but there's no reason that most models won't be able to handle it safely IME.

Good luck explaining that to any lawyer when you auger in an aircraft.

Maybe your definition of auger is different from mine. If I 'auger an aircraft in' the only person I'm going to be explaining anything to is an undertaker.

[Mustang]

Okay, I may have confused you with the terminology.

When you pull the power in the flare you apply the required amount of rudder to line you up with the runway and then touch down. The idea is to minimise the time from pulling the power to touchdown to reduce the amount of "weathervaning" the airplane does before touchdown.

Does that help your understanding of what I was trying to say?

Yep, but you're still gonna incur undesirable side loads on the landing gear that way.   Heavy aircraft are designed for that, small ones aren't.  It's better to land with the upwind wing low, using opposite rudder to keep the aircraft pointed straight down the runway, touching down on the upwind main gear first. 

The max crosswind component for an aircraft is whatever you can get it to do. The number listed in the POH is the max demonstrated crosswind component. That means its the most that the manufacturer and their lawyers decided to test the aircraft to. But that number is not limiting, If you can get it down safely in higher winds, its perfectly legal for you to do so as far as FAA is concerned.

A 20kt crosswind is high for a Cessna but there's no reason that most models won't be able to handle it safely IME.

15 kts is still the limit for CAP ops though, unless they dropped that from the 60-1 rewrite too.

[CASH172]

15 kts is still the limit for CAP ops though, unless they dropped that from the 60-1 rewrite too.

It's still there.

The maximum crosswind limit for operating CAP aircraft is that which is stated in the Pilot Operating Handbook (POH) as the maximum demonstrated crosswind velocity or 15 knots if the POH does not specify a limit.

[DG]

Good luck explaining that to any lawyer when you auger in an aircraft.

Don't underestimate a good liar's ability to comprehend.