Time for me to fly...

[Duke Dillio]

So it would seem that it is time for me to take the next step and become a pilot.  I'm looking for any advice as to choosing a flight school i.e. what to look for, do's and don'ts, what to be wary of, 141 versus 61, etc.  Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

[Flying Pig]

Where are you located?  Unless you are using your GI Bill, which would require a Part 141, it doesnt really matter.  Ive done both.  Dont pay a ton of money up front.  There is nothing wrong with getting a discount for putting $1000 on your books, some schools do that, but dont drop a bunch.  There has been many a school that was alive and well on Friday and Monday morning they were closed up. (research Silver State Helicopters)

If you are in CAP already, Im sure there are plenty of pilots who you can talk to about local reputations.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

As a long time instructor.

1.  In regards to 61 v 141 schools:  If you are paying the bills it really does not matter.  It is more a matter of the quality of the school and the staff.  There are some very good part 61 facilities and there are an equal number of horrible 141 programs.

2.  Take your time, interview with the school.  Don't be shy examine their teaching materials, meet the staff, meet and talk with the instructors. 

3.  Remember, you are hiring the school and the instructor to provide a service.  You are in charge, and yours are the goals and expectations that must be met or you will "fire: them and move on.
     Now this being said, as an instructor I conduct the lesson, I set the lesson goals, I determine the overall progress.  The student is entitled to quality instruction, clear guidance, breifings before and after every flight, periodic chats just to address overall progress.  The student has the right to set and verify the schedule and expect the schedule will be followed.

4.  Not every student is for every instructor and not every instructor is for every student.  Sometimes people just don't quite mesh.  If the student does not feel they are getting all they should from the instructor, if the student feels ill at ease with an instructor, tell the instructor.  Most decent instructors will either attempt to change their presentation style and failing that will help the student find another instructor.  (If the instr gets defensive and starts making excuses, it's time to "fire" him/her and tell their boss you want to fly with someone else.)  At the same time, if the (decent) instructor feels he/she is just not reaching the student, they (and most will) should talk with the student and offer to help find another instructor more in line with the student's mind/thoughts/abilities/etc.

5.  Remember there are Flight Instructors and pilots with flight instructor ratings.  THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

6.  Is the instructor a member of a "professional" organization such as Society of Aviation Flight Educators (SAFE) or the National Association of Flight Instructors (NAFI)?  Is the Instructor participating in the FAA Wings Program?   Does the school, staff, and the instructors take part in hosting and attending FAA/AOPA safety meetings?

REMEMBER IT'S YOUR MONEY, SPEND IT THE WAY YOU NEED TO - BUT WISELY.

7.  Funding:  Avoid any place that requires payment up front.  Pay as you go. 

8.  Be suspect of anyplace that stresses the FAA 40 hr  (35 hr for 141) training for the Private Pilot Certificate.  The national average is somewhere in the 60 hour range for both 61 and 141  students to get the private. 

9.  Don't hesitate in asking for references from the school and the instructor.  Not only of the successful former students, but also ask for contact information for some of their failures and ask why they failed.  My daughter fired a CFI that persisted in eating corn chips while flying.  The bad breath oder was really terrible for her.   I had a student go the the Chief Instructor at our 141 school and demand to be placed with another instructor because I was "too hard and would not let him get away with anything".   I have also "fired" student for not doing homework, not preparing for lessons, excessive cancellations, etc.

Good luck to you.
 

[Duke Dillio]

Thanks Cliff.  There is some really good advice there.  I live in Boardman, OR which is aways from civilization as we know it (Taco Bell, McD's, etc.)  I have been looking into a couple of flight schools in Kennewick, WA.  The going rate there is $135 per hour for a C172.  I haven't contacted the school yet as I am still doing my research but I would expect it to be around $200 per hour with the instructor.  I see that there is an online ground school for $77 and was also wondering if that would be a good option.  Also, what types of materials will I need and what is the associated cost on average?

[Flying Pig]

3.  Remember, you are hiring the school and the instructor to provide a service.  You are in charge, and yours are the goals and expectations that must be met or you will "fire: them and move on.
     Now this being said, as an instructor I conduct the lesson, I set the lesson goals, I determine the overall progress.  The student is entitled to quality instruction, clear guidance, breifings before and after every flight, periodic chats just to address overall progress.  The student has the right to set and verify the schedule and expect the schedule will be followed.

That being said.... I have seen a number of places that almost give the impression that they are doing you a favor by teaching you.  I do a little CFI'ing independently.  Be very clear on the billing aspects.  That will often be the issue that will cause problems

Another CFI I know had an issue with the student on billing.  On the day the student solo'd.  They did a 1.5 dual, landed, then he sent the student on the solo that went .5.  When the student wrote out the check at the end of the lesson, the student wrote it for 1.5.   The students reasoning was that the instructor had nothing to do with him flying the solo and that he wasnt going to pay the instructor to stand on the ground and watch him solo.   

The school is providing a FOR PROFIT service.  They want to provide that service and make money.  You want that service and are willing to pay for it.  Most schools I know of have no idea hashing out those details upfront.

Also..... ask about guaranteed amount.  I have done two ratings where I walked in and said "OK, you advertised cost is $10,500 for the 40hr course.   Ill give you $8700 cash right now for the 40hr course.   The owner agreed. I went to the bank and came back with a drug dealer sized wad of cash in an envelope.  Ive done that twice.   Basically what happened is we negotiated the hourly rate of the aircraft in exchange for me handing the owner cash on the spot.

I know that we have said in earlier posts that you dont go to schools that REQUIRE full payment upfront, this isnt what we are talking about.  But you had better make sure you are committed.  Both times Ive done it, it was for add-ons.  Not initial ratings.  I was already a CFI, so I knew what the add-on was going to entail and knew I was ready for it.  I also needed it for work, so I really was committed.  But I know other people who have done it on their initial private ratings.  Get your receipts like normal, know your balance, etc etc.  Dont think you are making a shady deal or anything.  In todays society I think people feel dirty about handing someone a stack of cash in an envelope. Just dont get stopped by the cops on the way back to the school from the bank!  You may have some explainin' to do 

The online ground schools....... I would hold off right now.  Because you are still going to do ground with your instructor.  Just wait until you start your lessons to start forking out money for online classes in addition to your regular ground lessons you will already be paying for

[Duke Dillio]

How often do I need to fly?  I am looking at being able to pay about $400 a week but with the current rates, that equates to about 2 hours of flight time.  Is that enough or should I try to budget more?

[Cliff_Chambliss]

Thanks Cliff.  There is some really good advice there.  I live in Boardman, OR which is aways from civilization as we know it (Taco Bell, McD's, etc.)  I have been looking into a couple of flight schools in Kennewick, WA.  The going rate there is $135 per hour for a C172.  I haven't contacted the school yet as I am still doing my research but I would expect it to be around $200 per hour with the instructor.  I see that there is an online ground school for $77 and was also wondering if that would be a good option.  Also, what types of materials will I need and what is the associated cost on average?

I really can't address the aircraft rental market in your area.  However, at the Army Flying Activity at Redstone Arsenal, Alabama C-172's rent from 85.00 to 110.00 per hr. depending on if you are talking about the 1968 model up to the 2007 model.  One thing to ask about when renting is insurance.  Don't just ask if the aircraft are insured, but ask if you as a student pilot are insured.  Chances are the answer is going to be a big no.  That being said, you should consider non-owners rental insurance from a vendo such as Avemco or the AOPA.  The game here is to protect your assets.

Ground school.  The FAA requires the completion of an approved ground study program.  There are different programs for diffeent folks, so here you can really choose the one best suited to you.
1.  Formal Ground School:  Frequently taught by an instructor at the FBO/Flight School.  These typically run 1 or 2 nights per week for 6 to 8 weeks.  Also, some community colleges offer private pilot ground school courses in their adult continuing edcation programs.
2.  Dvd/Online interactive Courses.  These are very well put together courses offered by really big names in the aviation training world.  King, Gliem, Jeppsen, Sporty's just to name a few.  All teach pretty much the same material but presentation styles vary.  Google each andcheck them out.  I believe some offer a free introductory lesson.
3.  Buy the Ground School text book and do home study.  Jeppsen, Gleim, ASA, and others have specific Private Pilot text books and study guides.
4.  Actual FAA Publications and Handbooks.  Many if not all are available at no charge from the FAA's website (www.faa.gov).
However, all the above points (1-3) have extracted information the Private Pilot applicant needs to know from the FAA Handbooks.  The FAA Handbooks present a lot more information that can confuse and overwhelm a student.  (1-3 presents the information the typical Airplane Single Engine Land VFR Private Pilot applicant needs to know.  The FAA Publications cover everything from Private Pilot to Airline Transport Pilot, Land plane and sea plane, Instrument flight, single engine and multiengine, and so on.)  But they do cover almost everything.
   So, on the ground training you have choices

[Cliff_Chambliss]

How often do I need to fly?  I am looking at being able to pay about $400 a week but with the current rates, that equates to about 2 hours of flight time.  Is that enough or should I try to budget more?

I typically tell my students the best seems to be 3 lessons every two weeks.  Some weeks 1 some weeks 2.  It depends on the student and the phase of flight.  Local airwork, ground reference, traffic pattern, 2x per week.  Nights and cross country  1x per week.
I also plan for each lesson to average 2 hours.  .25 hr preflight brief, 1.5 hr flight, .25 hr debrief.  (seldom works but that's what I try to plan for).

[bflynn]

I would budget for and schedule 3 lessons a week with at least a day between.  On some weeks, you'll fly all 3, but probably you'll have at least 1 cancelled for some reason, usually weather.  On average, you'll probably wind up with just 2 lessons a week.

Take your training in a 172 and fly your initial Form-5 immediately after your checkride.

Don't set artificial goals.  You'll do solo and take your checkride when your instructor says you're ready.  They will be right about it.  Flying as a student is still flying.

When you get discouraged, realize that every pilot who has come before you has been in the same place.  None of us could keep the ball centered or fly a stable approach when we first started out.  It's normal and you WILL get it if you keep at it.  Nobody has ever failed to learn to fly, some just quit before they did.

[Flying Pig]

I had a CFI who was coming up to his 1000hrs or whatever it was to start applying to the airlines.  He wanted to fly no matter what!  And I didnt know any better.  One day I meet him and he looks like crap.  Its chilly out but he is sweating and flushed looking.  As we are walking out to the plane he leans over a trash can and throws up.  Then says "Wheeeew..... OK I feel a lot better."  and then we keep walknig to the plane like nothing happened.  I ask "DUDE....(cuz Im from California)  you have the flu or something?"  He says he thinks it was something he ate.   Needless to say, he actually decides to cancel the lesson.

Not more than a couple weeks later, he gets let go after a student complains that his very FIRST lesson was a 3.5hr round trip cross country to San Diego Class B to have lunch with another instructor who was doing a legit dual cross country.  THe two CFIs were buddies.  One CFI was on a legit flight.... this guy just happened to think his brand new student wouldnt mind footing the bill for the reunion.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

hence my comment:  There are Flight Instructors and there are pilots with flight instructor ratings - They are not the same.

The student needs to finish every flight feeling good about themself the flight, and feeling that while they are with the Instructor they are the most important person in their (the instructor's) life.

[BHartman007]

I don't have nearly the experience as the guys above, so my best advice is to echo the aforementioned "find an instructor you  like and work well with".
My instructor doesn't charge me his rate for solo flight, just the plane. Heck we did a 1:15 ground school last weekend and he didn't even charge me.

I'd try to fly at least two hours a week. I get in an hour Saturday and another on Sunday. When daylight savings hits next week I'll be bumping it to 3 or 4 hours a week to finish sooner.

[Flying Pig]

Im not suggesting a CFI charge you for dual while you are on a solo Xcty.....  but when I jump out so you can solo for the first time, and Im on the ground with a radio so I can communicate with you......my clock is still running

[Cliff_Chambliss]

An unfortunate fact of aviation life is that Instructing is the entry level job for most hopeful professional pilots.  Look around at the local airport and notice that the majority of the CFI's tend to fall into two groups. 

On one hand you get the young guys just starting out.  Many are really up to date on all the knowledge requirements and really want to fly and get the hours for the next rung on the 'pool your poverty' ladder. 

The next largest group are the old grey beards (self included).  These are the guys who have already tried their hand at jousting with windmills and trying to conquer the world.  They tend to take on fewer students and spend more time with the student for they are teaching because they want to.

There are pros and cons to each groups and to each member within each group.  Within our little club we have a few younger guys trying support themselves and their families on very meager flight instruction pay and for them they almost have to charge for every minute of their time.  Does this make them bad people?  No.  It's just life.  We also have a bunch of older guys.  I for one am going to charge my student for actual flight time plus .5 hr for pre & post.  Now if the student has honsest questions and a desire to learn I will spend as much time as I can with him/her and no charge another cent.  On the other hand, should a student show up unprepared I will send them home without flying and still charge them the .5 hr as a learning point and many of the other older guys do pretty much the same. 

[Flying Pig]

Something else to point out I think....  Unless your CFI is responsible for billing, do not discuss finances with him/her.  Take it up with the owner.  Because generally the CFI is just CFI'ing.   Remember, at larger flight schools, the CFI is only getting a portion of the CFI rate.  The school is actually renting you the instructor.   There are a few schools where I am.  The instructor rate is up to about $55-$60 an hour.  The CFI themselves are only getting about $15-$20.  So in many cases, its not up to the instructor to negotiate that.    Again..... these are things you need to sort out and understand before you start. 

I dont know anything about you or if you are a cadet or SM, so Ill add that if your parents are paying for it, make sure they read these posts also.  If you are an adult paying for yourself....... I suggest seeing if your parents will pay for it!!! HAAAAAAA

[Duke Dillio]

Well, I'm a senior and my parents won't have anything to do with the financial portion.  I am looking at having no problem with doing two hours a week.  My biggest issue is my variable schedule.  (I work in a power plant on a Dupont schedule.)  Some weeks I could fly 7 days while others I might have an issue getting in at least once.  I'm not doing this to gain employment.  I just want to learn to fly.  Easy enough having a dream.  Much more difficult to make the dream come true.

[SJFedor]

When I was working on my instrument rating, I was in a bit of a time crunch because I was getting ready to move from PA to TN. I used a flight training finance company (Pilot Finance I think) which was nice, because there was a line of credit set up, ready to go, and I could pull from it as my schedule saw fit. And for them to release money to the flight school, it had to have my signature and everything else, so it helped keep track of things. Interest rates were really reasonable, and I got it paid off pretty quick, but it was nice when I did my IFR X/C (flew from PA to TN and back, ended up being an over $1000 flight, but finished out my X/C time that I needed.)

[Flying Pig]

Yeah.... a lot of students forget to save up for those big ticket flights.   Not to mention the chekride.  In my area, examiners are about $450-$500 for a ride, plus the rental of the plane.  That can easily be a $600 day. 

[SJFedor]

Absolutely. I think I might have paid an extra $200 total in interest, for the ability to draw whatever amount of money is needed to get me done. I think all told my instrument cost me right around $5k (2005/2006), and I was flying 4-5 times a week (and then going to work). And that's not too bad, considering I needed to build at least 35hrs of X/C time before I was elligible to complete it.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

Duke,
   As you start out and meet with the various folks find out what program they are using.  Most places use the Jeppsen Syllabus but there are others by King, ASA, Q Ref, etc.  Most of these will have an outline of the course and a schedule of lessons.  Note, these are lessons and not flights.  Some lessons may take more than one flight.  Anyway this schedule will give you an idea of a "road map" for your training and you can start getting an idea of how often you will fly and how long (under ideal conditions) each flight should be.
  Also, early on get a copy of the Private Pilot Practical Test Standards (which is the final exam).  Look through the PTS and everywhere you see tolerances of 100 ft, 10 degrees, etc make pen changes to 20 ft, 2 kts, and 2 degrees.  These should be your goals (not that you have to meet them to "pass" but why not aim for the bulls eye instead of the entire target.

In our neck of the woods:  Note this is a military flying club so rental and instructor fees may be less than market.
Aircraft Rental  average 105.00 per hr.
Instructor:  27.00/hr
Training materials:  300.00  Books, charts, plotter, e6b, flight bag, etc.
Medical:  100.00
Written Test:  85.00
Practical Test:  150.00
Headset:  100.00-900.00
misc junk  250.00  all that stuff that you feel you have to have that you will later sell in a yard sale.  knee boards, fancy markers, removable compass rose,  29 assorted flashlights, timers, cokes (for those bets with your instructor that you will lose) etc.

[Flying Pig]

WOW..... Yeah a little less on your end.

Rental here for a 172 is over $150 per hr
CFI - $60ish
Written $150
Examiner $450-$500