Ground Team Radiological qualification

desert rat · February 15, 2007, 07:37:01 AM

What is the specific training required for this? I can't find a task guide for this training. Also Is there any outside CAP training that would qualify a person in this?

SarDragon · February 15, 2007, 07:56:49 AM

That's a leftover from the 70s. I was qual'd back them, but most wings don't have anything to do with it these days. Save your time for something more useful.

SAR-EMT1 · February 15, 2007, 12:04:36 PM

CAP no longer offers any internal training for this or Airborne monitoring.
FEMA does offer a course, however, you need written invitation from a local EMA staffer to attend, its 3 days and in residence only. -- As far as Ive seen only cops and the like are taking it. HIGHLY doubtful they'd even consider letting us attend.

Al Sayre · February 15, 2007, 12:59:00 PM

Why wouldn't they let us attend? I work at the local nuclear plant, and serve on the Emergency Response Organization as part of my job. The local EMA can use all the trained help it can get in a radiological emergency, and CAP used to have a pretty good program for both ground and aerial monitoring. (I was qualified as a cadet back in the '70's) With the threat of terrorism, it would be folly on their part not to accept the help we could give them if people are willing to do the training. If you are interested, do the online course and then call or check with the local EMA when the next time they offer the course. I suspect you'll be pleasantly suprised. I have had very good luck so far in attending NIMS and other courses offered by the State EMA, they always seem glad to have us.

Eclipse · February 15, 2007, 03:08:44 PM

This is no longer one of CAP's missions, so while there's no reason not to attend, I don't see the point.

We've discussed this at fair length at Palwaukee - if you look at that 1956 National Geographic article on CAP, you will see an ILWG cadet using ground RAD gear on a Steerman.

There is only so much you should expect of volunteers, in the 50's we were still doing above-ground nuke tests in Nevada and calling them "spectator events".

We know better today.

Expecting a volunteer, or worse a cadet volunteer, to expose themselves
to radiation is just not cricket.

I think ARCHER is the nearest we get to this today.

Leave it to to NRC, FEMA, or others who are paid and trained to do this stuff.

DNall · February 15, 2007, 08:24:14 PM

In an actual nuclear incident the NG & NEST teams would be there with super hit tech gear... UAVs to do the close in assessment, those bomb squad robots, all kinds of cool toys, and a full decontamination unit. That's not the kind of thing CAP was ever designed to do.

You've seen all those old post-nuclear war movies, the ones where they finally hear someone on the radio reporting location & rad count so people knw when it's okay to come out of shelters... that's what rad-mon was was about more than anything. The gear used back then was low cost broad strokes stuff.

There is a mission to be done now though that doesn't involve driving thru radiation clouds after an explosion. It's more of enviomental monitoring around nuclear facilities when there's an internal incident or as a spot check to keep them on their toes. That same gear should be on board when you're flying around over stadium, around the shuttle, thru an area the President will be speaking the next day... that kind a thing. You should put that same gear on planes flying the border for customs too. If you want to do a wider more accurate detection & detterence mission, that requires some more accurate gear, which is avaible, but you also have to make CAP into a trusted asset.

On the ground though, I'm not sure there is a real mission. You could get into the training if you really wanted to, but what are you trying to fill every slot on the 101? There's not really a job to be done. I could imagine after-incident outter zone disaster response type missions... and in that case you might want a detector for GTs that records readings to a laptop, but it really doesn't take any significant training to put this thing on the dash, plug it into a laptop w/ some software, call in the code off the screen if the alarm goes off, & email the log file when you get back to base. We could make up a really cool rig for that w/ GPS tracking & everything, but I don't know that tehre's a lot of legitimate need. Maybe someone could sell the idea to DHS, but it'd be down the list behind some things we really do need to be doing & that's where the money needs to be.

If you really want it though, it's not a bad class. Just check w/ your local/state EMA on how you might be able to attend for free. We got some firefighters that have done it recently for their work & I think they might put in for it on the 101, but I don't even know the proceedure for that since I don't thnk it's on eServices.

isuhawkeye · February 16, 2007, 02:14:20 PM

In Iowa we do "Sample Transport" to the hygenics labs. they take very small samples for us to take for analysis, but sinvce it may be hot we get to play with the geiger counters, dosimiters, and the 2pam. lots of fun

arajca · February 16, 2007, 06:07:32 PM

Quote from: dentist1 on February 15, 2007, 07:37:01 AM
What is the specific training required for this? I can't find a task guide for this training. Also Is there any outside CAP training that would qualify a person in this?

IMHO, someone was looking for more missions CAP could do and delved into our history. They uncovered our CD mission of radiological monitoring and made it active again. In the early 80's, I was a ARM qualified as a cadet. The requirements included a two day class on how to operate the equipment and two training flights as part of the class. IIRC, if you were ARM qual'd, you were also GRM qual'd, but I could be mistaken.

As a current haz mat technician, and my team's radmat specialist, there isn't a whole lot to monitoring. Just reading the instruments. Figuring out what those reading mean and how to use them is another story. I use several sources to determine where the 'safe' and 'acceptable' levels are and have the monitors report when they hit the edge of those levels. We don't go closer, except for a couple volunteers, then only for as short a time as possible with as much shielding as possible (which may include a fire truck or loaded dump truck driven in reverse). To date, we've only had to do this in training and have not had any real rad mat incidents.

capchiro · February 16, 2007, 06:25:18 PM

Actually, it's not as far fetched as one might imagine. One of the big areas of concern is dirty bombs. Not really big damage, but big lasting radiation and contaminated places and peoples. I have always found FEMA to be very pleasant to work with and took the instructor course with them a few years back. A phone call or e-mail showing your interest and the reason why you are interested and you have a seat. It's a good opportunity to meet others in the ES field and make contacts for other training. I still wear my ARM patch and do so proudly. Knowledge replaces fear. jmho

desert rat · February 16, 2007, 07:14:43 PM

I live close enough to a major terrorist target, Vegas. We also live close to nucleor testing, and the corridor of nucleor waste being carried up HWY 95. If there was a leak anywhere it ould be in my back yard. We would already be exposed before any national Hazmet teams could arrive. We could set up peremiter checks to determine where safe zones are to send people, plus we could help red cross start setting up shelter where fall out would most likely not be.

I am not looking at this like we would go to hot spots, but check the area we are in for hot spots. and make sure the reliefe sites are contamination free. LET HAZMEt teams go to hot spots, we make sure evacuation spots are kept clean. Also we could be checking our planes to make sure they stay clean.

Also shouldn't we check crash sites for radiation? That would be a great way to set off a dirty bomb.

BillB · February 16, 2007, 09:34:49 PM

Are there still any Geiger counters anywhere in the CAP inventory? I qualified as an ARM years ago, but have not seen any Squadron with a counter. At this time it looks like CAP has no way to set up radiological teams since there is no equipment.

Al Sayre · February 16, 2007, 10:18:20 PM

Sportsmans Guide was selling them for 29.95 recently...

MIKE · February 17, 2007, 01:06:16 AM

Quote from: Al Sayre on February 16, 2007, 10:18:20 PM
Sportsmans Guide was selling them for 29.95 recently...

Model 717 Radiation Detector

CDV-720 Portable Radiation Detector

arajca · February 17, 2007, 01:56:03 AM

CO has its ARM kit at wing hq. I don't know if the calibration is current.

lordmonar · February 17, 2007, 03:38:44 AM

Quote from: DNall on February 15, 2007, 08:24:14 PMOn the ground though, I'm not sure there is a real mission. You could get into the training if you really wanted to, but what are you trying to fill every slot on the 101? There's not really a job to be done.

Well there is soil and water sample in and around nuclear waste storage facilities and plants. Certainly a CAP ground team could do something like that.

Also in this day and age...we need to be aware that CRBN is a likely possibliity. We could assist FEMA and NEST in the event of an incident.

I have been trained by the USAF to respond to Broken Arrow/Bent Spear incedents. The training is not really all that involved. It mainly has to do with contamination avoidance and decontamination procedures, use of the dosometer and radition detectors.

This is definatly something CAP "could" get into if we so desired...and is no more or less dangerous than flying around mountains.

desert rat · February 18, 2007, 12:05:53 AM

How about helping the boarder patrol with radiation monitoring of vehicles ect. Could be a periodic mission as much as the flying patrol. We really need to train on radiation decontaminating the CAP planes, and monitoring their radiation levels.

How do we conduct training for this qualification? Many of us have been miltary trained, many of us have medical training in dealing with effects of radiation and TX. Some of us have FEMA training in person and also by the online courses, and I am sure there are some that have had nuceor radiation commisoin or Homeland security training.

We should be able to come up with some method of training and qualification for this.

Here are my thoughts on training for CAP people without having to go to an outside source:

1. using equipment, like the Victoreen CD V-720, V710, V715 radiation detectors, very cheap millions available from the cold war and easy to use. Train on use of this equipment. (CAP units can get current calibrated units for about $50-$100 each)

2. Understanding personal doiseomitry equipmet and use.

3. How to do decomtamination of aircraft and people.

4. Who to contact and how to contact if radiation detected.

5. Basic medical first responder treatment for radiation poisioning.

We also need a form for recording a ground team radiation incident finding or mission.

swya · February 18, 2007, 05:35:30 AM

couldnt we at least help authorities search for safe areas for mass evacuations in our local areas or check planes or other things used by other people during testing flights for radiation

desert rat · February 19, 2007, 04:05:28 AM

Is anyone interested in making a training program, mission guidline to submit to national?

Al Sayre · February 19, 2007, 01:20:36 PM

WIWAC, Civil Defense gave a major portion of the ground training. CAP had an airborne syllabus, but I don't remember where it came from. It would probably be easier to find some old training material and update it...YMMV

desert rat · February 21, 2007, 06:42:57 PM

Still no work from national on this. I tried the knowledge base and still have no response. It looks like there is no set training for this. This is very simple to train for and is a great mission for a ground team.

Eclipse · February 21, 2007, 07:22:01 PM

Quote from: desert rat on February 21, 2007, 06:42:57 PM
Still no work from national on this. I tried the knowledge base and still have no response. It looks like there is no set training for this. This is very simple to train for and is a great mission for a ground team.

From another thread...

Quote from: desert rat on February 15, 2007, 07:34:46 AM
What is the actual training required for a ground radiological monitoring. I can't find a training task guide anywhere, or what outside CAP training suffices for thequalification.

Quote from: CAP Knowledgebase
CAP does not have a nationwide radiological monitoring program, though some wings do support local agencies with appropriately trained personnel. Your wing will need to recognize your qualifications and have an existing program before utilization and award of a rating...

...The Aerial Radiological Monitoring Patch is awarded for completion of any state or FEMA radiological monitoring course. Individuals who complete such a course should provide a copy of the completion certificate to your professional development or personnel officer for inclusion in your records. The patch may be ordered from CAPMart/Vanguard Item 0839 AERIAL RADIOLOGICAL PATCH.

http://tinyurl.com/2b8586

DNall · February 21, 2007, 07:22:28 PM

The word form national is already posted in the thread. There is no national program. If you state has a program & determines you need the outside CAP training to meet their needs for participation then they & they only can award you the rating as they see fit. Wear of the patch is authorized for completeing any of a few courses, FEMA being the main one. The only state programs I know of involve monitoring flights around power plants to confirm they are clean, but would not occur in case of an emergency. Flying in the safe zone to confirm, etc is done by small UAVs run by the guard.

The $50-100 model would work great if you waive it inches over a non-shielded dirty bomb, or if you were walking around in a nuclear blast zone, but that's not reality. The gear you need to do arieal detection of a low-rad source & filter background is a bit more than $100, but it's not heavy & fits nicely between the seats. The really advanced model Sandia is working on does something like ARCHER in which it creates a map based on radiation return, which is extremely important to make detection more accurate.

ELTHunter · February 22, 2007, 09:06:51 PM

Maybe we don't have a program anymore, but somebody probably needs to tell the DOE and TEMA. In Tennessee, CAP is in the response plan for a nuclear accidents at both DOE facilities and TVA nuclear plants. I think it's something most people have forgotten about, but one of the DOE/NNSA guys mentioned it to me the other day. We have no equipment and a few trained folks left from back in the day. I guess we could lend moral support.

DNall · February 22, 2007, 10:09:57 PM

You should move swiftly to address that with them. They'll help you get DHS grants for equipment, provide the FEMA training to use it, and conduct excercises with you to practice the mission over their facilities. That'd be an excellent relationship to develop anyway as I can imagine keeping an eye out for suspicious behavior around their facilities is a concern as well... they can get two birds with one stone as you do air confirmation of their environmental controls & a little HLS while you're at it. I may have some third party contacts at TVA if you need a hand. Get some help from national to develop it.

Eclipse · February 22, 2007, 10:34:50 PM

Quote from: ELTHunter on February 22, 2007, 09:06:51 PM
Maybe we don't have a program anymore, but somebody probably needs to tell the DOE and TEMA. In Tennessee, CAP is in the response plan for a nuclear accidents at both DOE facilities and TVA nuclear plants. I think it's something most people have forgotten about, but one of the DOE/NNSA guys mentioned it to me the other day. We have no equipment and a few trained folks left from back in the day. I guess we could lend moral support.

CAP is written into the response plans of a LOT of things, doesn't mean we'll come when they call, just means someone typed our name into a box somewhere.

lordmonar · February 22, 2007, 10:41:07 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on February 22, 2007, 10:34:50 PM
Quote from: ELTHunter on February 22, 2007, 09:06:51 PM
Maybe we don't have a program anymore, but somebody probably needs to tell the DOE and TEMA. In Tennessee, CAP is in the response plan for a nuclear accidents at both DOE facilities and TVA nuclear plants. I think it's something most people have forgotten about, but one of the DOE/NNSA guys mentioned it to me the other day. We have no equipment and a few trained folks left from back in the day. I guess we could lend moral support.

CAP is written into the response plans of a LOT of things, doesn't mean we'll come when they call, just means someone typed our name into a box somewhere.

I don't think this would happen without somesort of coordination. Either way.....if you are part of the plan and your wing wants to be part of the plan....the Wing ES guy needs to start securing equipment and training so we can fulfill this mission.

Eclipse · February 23, 2007, 04:10:21 AM

Sorry, it does. In some cases because of histrotical relationships which no longer exist, but the people writing the response plans don't realize it.

We've found out by accident up our way that our names are on lists with agencies that have no actual CAP contact, not could they have any real idea what we could do...