Should we reclassify "senior members without grade" as "Airman"?

[BuckeyeDEJ]

So there's a rather large faction in CAP that wants SMs without grade and SMs with grade that doesn't mean anything. 

Nope.  There isn't.

+1

If anything, second lieutenant in CAP is absolutely throwaway. HQ AU A4/6 Course 13 should be mandatory before officer grade is given to ANY CAP member up for a duty-performance promotion. That would add some credibility.

SMWOG is just fine the way it is.  I'm a SMWOG right now - I just reupped after an 18 year absence.  What I'm not is any kind of "candidate" or "trainee".  I'm a highly trained aviation professional who needs to complete the new Level I material to be promoted to Captain again.

Neither am I an airman basic.  I left the Army after my two years as an E-3, so long ago it hurts to remember, and so long ago it's pretty much irrelevant, IMHO. But I am not an AB.

Leave well enough alone - this another solution looking for a problem.

No, you are not an airman basic. Unfortunately, before you can wear your railroad tracks again, you have to do Level I all over again. So what's your nomenclature? Your grade as a captain is suspended due to a membership lapse and training currency. So you're a suspended captain.

[MSgt Van]

Heck no.

[Polecat]

So this is what you guys do at meetings?  Sit around and discuss your titles and how confusing they are to each other?

No I eat donuts, drink coffee and critique Cadets drill movements even though I don't have any idea how to actually perform drill myself.  I also show up 30 minutes late, never salute anyone (nor return salutes) use my CAP membership to get discounts at Wendy's and McDonald's.  I then leave 20 minutes before the end of a meeting since I don't care for all that "military custom stuff".  I also never show up to help out at unit fundraisers, never attend weekend activities, keep as far away from Cadets as possible and sit in my flight suite week after week.  Not to mention, I talk trash on people I don't even know at Wing and Group Headquarters, never progressed past Level 1 in 10 years as a Senior Member and always (always) wait until my membership expires to renew.

SERIOUSLY.... I am kidding.  HOWEVER, I have met Senior Members like this before.  Have you??

You just described my former sqd CC, DCC, heck 6 out of 7 senior members (with and without grade) from that sqd. Wow. It's kinda VERYscary and sad how often this happens. Ugh. 

Back on topic. I voted for I don't care because I didn't see and option I like. What do they call officer canidates in OCS? If that isn't something crazy I think that would be an idea. But whatever, it doesn't matter to me much anyway.

[Hawk200]

I don't really see any better option. I did actually end up with a person confused about "Senior Members". She thought it was a senior citizen reference.

I don't think "airman" fits. As pointed out, "Officer Candidate" might not be accurate if the member has prior military experience as an NCO and wishes to go that route.

Our organization really doesn't really have anything that really seems to fit. "Plebe" doesn't work, and I certainly wouldn't want to use it. "Cadet" doesn't work for obvious reasons.

Not sure what works. Don't have any other ideas either. What did they call them in the beginning?

[AirDX]

I don't really see any better option. I did actually end up with a person confused about "Senior Members". She thought it was a senior citizen reference.

I don't think "airman" fits. As pointed out, "Officer Candidate" might not be accurate if the member has prior military experience as an NCO and wishes to go that route.

Our organization really doesn't really have anything that really seems to fit. "Plebe" doesn't work, and I certainly wouldn't want to use it. "Cadet" doesn't work for obvious reasons.

Not sure what works. Don't have any other ideas either. What did they call them in the beginning?

Sounds like any potential choice is just as awkward as SMWOG.  Unless we overhaul our entire grade structure as has been suggested elsewhere on this board, SMWOG is as good as anything else.

Not to be a thread hijacker, but I'd like to see us all (except commanders, who would be breveted during the time they are commanders, and prior service commisioned officers) be put in a Flight Officer scheme.  The rank structure would be OURS, and there wouldn't be any issue with officers, warrant officers, NCOs, etc. being "insulted" by us.

[Hawk200]

Not to be a thread hijacker, but I'd like to see us all (except commanders, who would be breveted during the time they are commanders, and prior service commisioned officers) be put in a Flight Officer scheme.  The rank structure would be OURS, and there wouldn't be any issue with officers, warrant officers, NCOs, etc. being "insulted" by us.

Just a heads up, that has been suggested here before, and it tends to get ugly. How about we now talk about it? It's one of those subjects where there's never any clear winner.

[lordmonar]

Not to be a thread hijacker, but I'd like to see us all (except commanders, who would be breveted during the time they are commanders, and prior service commisioned officers) be put in a Flight Officer scheme.  The rank structure would be OURS, and there wouldn't be any issue with officers, warrant officers, NCOs, etc. being "insulted" by us.

Just a heads up, that has been suggested here before, and it tends to get ugly. How about we now talk about it? It's one of those subjects where there's never any clear winner.

I agree with that.
Everyone is a Flight Officer based on your PD level of competion.  You come in as an Flight Officer Trainee and become FO-1 when your finish your Level 1.

No special promotions for anything...I don't care if you are a retired 4 star you join as an FOT untl you finish level 1 and then you re just an FO-1.

Ranks is awarded based on your positon in the organisations.

National CC is  a 2 start
Vice CC is a one start
National Staff is Col

Regional CC is 1 star
Vice is Col
Staff is Lt Col

Wing CC is Col
Vice is Lt col
Staff is Maj
Group CCC is Lt Col
Vice is Major
Staff is Capt

Squadron CC is Major
Vice is Capt
Staff is 1st Lt

There are NO 2nd Lts.  Assitanct anything officers at any level do not get rank.  So if you are on the National Director of CP's staff you would be just a FO-4 or FO-5 working for a Col.

Ranks would be worn only while in the postion.  So the National CC goes back to being a FO-5 once he or she leave the job of National CC.

Some ES postions  (IC, PAO, PSC, OSC, AOBD, GOBD) would carry rank with them so that they better interface with the media and outside agencies. (an IC as a Lt Col is more impressive then and IC who is just an FO-3 or FO-4).  Once ther rating expires then off comes the rank.

Finally we have to have hard and fast requirements for each level of leadership.  Create a level of PD for each level of involvment.  Level-1 basic member, Leve 2 squadron staff, Level 3 squadron leaderhip/group staff.  Level 4 group leadeship/wing staff.  level 5  wing leadership/regeional staff.  level 6 regional leadership/national staff.  level 7 for national leadership.

This would cfreate mmore grades FOT to FO-7 but then it will make our ranks mean something.

Okay rant done.

[Spike]

Maybe we eliminate rank titles altogether and just go with position titles.  We all wear the CAP uniforms with the "CAP" cutouts on them and drive on.

Instead of "Hi I am "Capt Jason Blah, Squadron Commander", it would be "Hi I am Jason Blah, Squadron Commander".

Simple right??

Seriously in an organization where a Lt Col takes orders from a 1st Lt who is the Squadron Commander, we can easily get rid of rank.  Then we know....Wing Commander gives orders to Group Commanders who give orders to Squadron Commanders who give order to Squadron Members.  SIMPLE!

We then leave the Cadet program alone, but still require all Cadets to express proper customs and courtesies to Senior Members, even though there is no rank.

I don't like the idea, but throw it out there anyway!!!!!

[Major Carrales]

Maybe we eliminate rank titles altogether and just go with position titles.  We all wear the CAP uniforms with the "CAP" cutouts on them and drive on.

Instead of "Hi I am "Capt Jason Blah, Squadron Commander", it would be "Hi I am Jason Blah, Squadron Commander".

Simple right??

Seriously in an organization where a Lt Col takes orders from a 1st Lt who is the Squadron Commander, we can easily get rid of rank.  Then we know....Wing Commander gives orders to Group Commanders who give orders to Squadron Commanders who give order to Squadron Members.  SIMPLE!

We then leave the Cadet program alone, but still require all Cadets to express proper customs and courtesies to Senior Members, even though there is no rank.

I don't like the idea, but throw it out there anyway!!!!!

You know, while were at it lets just do this...

National Commander= Pope
National Vice Commander= Metropolitan Extraordinary and Bishop Plenipotentiary 
Region Commander= Cardinal Bishops & Archbishops
Wing Commander= Bishops
Group Commander= Monsignors
Squadron Commander= Reverend Father
Flight Commander= Deacon

Hummm... you know what, let's just leave it like it is.  (I hope this illustrates the point of how pointless this type of discussion actually is)

[Hawk200]

Maybe I should go find Pandora and tell her she lost another box.

[AirDX]

I like things in the vein of lordmonar above - except I'd restrict officer grade even further:

Wing Co: COL
Vice Wing Co: LTC
Group Co: LTC
Vice Group Co: MAJ
Squadron Co: MAJ
Deputy Co(s): CPT
Flight Co: CPT

Ain't no LTs, brother.  The above get the rank pinned on at the change of command ceremony.  The outgoing CO gets the command service ribbon, and reverts to permanent rank

Exception: Former and current commissioned officers of the US military may wear their rank (I'm not sure what to do with BG and above, I'll admit).

The rest of the membership falls into a series of Flight Officer ranks based on training level.

New members enter as Junior Flight Officers (I don't like the word trainee, doesn't fit a lot of new folks).

On completion of Level I plus ECI 13 (or whatever it's called nowadays) they become Flight Officers.

Technical Flight Officers upon Level II
Master Flight Officers upon Level III
Senior Flight Officers upon Level IV
Chief Flight Officers upon Level V

At the same time, do away with the ribbons for Levels I-IV.  Too many folks running around looking like Audie Murphy.  Let's leave that to the regular AF.

Prior or current enlisted (E-1 to E-9) may wear their rank, as may prior or current warrant officers.

Consider the thread semi-hijacked.

[AirDX]

(I hope this illustrates the point of how pointless this type of discussion actually is)

I wouldn't consider any reasonable discussion of an issue to be pointless.

[FARRIER]

So there's a rather large faction in CAP that wants SMs without grade and SMs with grade that doesn't mean anything. 

SM w/o grade is a huge misnomer.  Everyone has grade, it's just that we have a lowest grade - SM.  WIWAC the SM enlisted ranks started with SM, then went to airman, then airman first class, etc.

Non-pilots started out as enlisted, learned a skill, progressed, etc.  It worked out great!  Some became officers, some didn't.  When a person became a 2d Lt, it was a big deal.  Can someone point out the problem here?  (Perhaps it is that rank/grade meant something in CAP back then, but means nothing now.  Maybe that correlates with CAP being an institution that was much more respected by USAF back then than it is now.)

I think those who voted "I don't care" were being more honest than some.

I came into CAP as a cadet after this had been stopped. Respectfully, leave it as it is for now.

[wuzafuzz]

Instead of all this reorganizing, why not just change the insignia for rank?  Keep titles they way they are so you don't have to mess with the membership databases.

Or...

Keep the current Flight Officer grades and make Warrant Officers above those.  Since the Air Force uses neither, there shouldn't be too much heartburn over our using them.  Let commanders be "officers" but only when serving as a commander, similar to the CG Aux roles.

No automatic grade for former military officers or NCO's.  Be in CAP and go with the CAP program. 

Or...

Leave it the way it is, warts and all.

[wuzafuzz]

One more thought:

Do CG Aux, ACA officers, and Sea Cadet Officers spend this much time worrying about rank/grade?  There will always be some folks who think it's lousy we wear officer insignia, but do we change everything as a result?  There are also people who are offended when the sky is blue or I share my evil conservative politics.   :angel:

I'd hazard a guess our members/officers are as well trained as some SDF officers.  Not all, but some.

Sure, there is room for us to improve.  I especially like the idea of improving our introductory training.  When it's all said and done, the AF says we can wear the insignia.  If that's not adequate authority for some, nothing will please them.

Eric OUT.

[brasda91]

By the way, does anyone have an argument for why using the term "Senior Member Without Grade" and "SM" for their "rank" is a good way to deal with new senior members and those who don't want to be officers or NCOs?  If there is a pro-SMWOG argument, I sure would like to hear it.

We have some Senior Members with out grade, some NCO's and some with grade.  We are in the Senior Member program.

We have some Cadets without grade, some NCO's and some with grade (Cadet Officers).  They are in the Cadet Program.

You have to have the discipline to know when to use the term Senior Member and when to say Adult member.  When dealing with prospective members, I try to use the term Adult "member" or "Program".  Once they join and begin Level I training then use the term Senior Member.

[Spike]

One more thought:

Do CG Aux, ACA officers, and Sea Cadet Officers spend this much time worrying about rank/grade? 
Eric OUT.

ACA Officers just slap on rank insignia, no worry about Federal Laws or what the "Army might think".  They get away with it because they have one "tiny" uniform item that can hardly be seen to make their Army Uniforms "distinctive".

That is why I don't understand why CAP uniforms have to look like a freaking clown costume for the AF. 

[heliodoc]

CAP does fine by itself creating the clown suits and again remember the smurf suit.

Grant you, I really do not know the history behind it NOR do I care

I am sure there is plenty of AF personnel wondering WTF with CAP and all its bling and worries about its uniform

I am also sure that the AF is looking at how we perform and also we we wear the uni

BUT CAP does fine inventing it own clown suits and grade/ rank issues

Many CAPers who worry this much about unis probably do not have enough to do

We just need the clown shoes to go with the clown costume(s)

And the CAP world worried about HWSRN... a clown also  You get what U PAY for!!!!

[AirAux]

As of today, all SMWOG will be derisively called "Doolies" to reflect our relationship with the AF and the USAFA.  This will motivate all to become 2Lt's as soon as possible.  That pretty much wraps up the flyby Mav..

[flyguy06]

Why not start a CAP Officer Candidate school similar to what the State Defense Force do? That way new members wil have the rank of Officer Candidate until they complete OCS which then they can be 2nd LT's