New National Commander elected

Started by vento, August 18, 2011, 04:10:35 PM

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RADIOMAN015

Quote from: JC004 on October 01, 2011, 05:59:26 AM
I guess we'd still have the CAP distinctive field uniform - the BDU.  Much to RM's annoyance.
Well again, when we start talking about CAP branding, etc, at least in my opinion we need ONE field uniform (and flight uniform) that everyone can wear, and differentiates us from the military.   I tend to believe the blue BDU's and flight suits with the appropriate highly colored emergency services patches accomplish this better than a uniform such as the camoflauge BDU that causes confusion.

When the American Red Cross is conducting any field operations, there's absolutely NO doubt in identifying them, due to the type of colorful uniforms & vests they wear.   CAP National policy, wise this is probably a good debate to have, with the "wanna fraction" against the "branding/differentiation fraction".     
RM   


RiverAux

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on October 01, 2011, 01:32:43 PM
I don't  foresee the AF pulling all it's funding from CAP due to the cost effectiveness at this point of ES support provided via the aircraft fleet and also the potential recruiting pool for cadets.
The AF doesn't fund us.  Congress does.

Eclipse


"That Others May Zoom"

SARDOC


The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: Eclipse on October 01, 2011, 09:41:56 PM
Who is confused?

RM must be...he's the only one who keeps bringing up this "differentiate us from the military" issue. 

I have never, in all my years of wearing woodland BDU on CAP ops, been confused for anything but CAP.  In contrast, NSCC wears woodland BDU's with subdued nametapes and metal subdued grade.  I met an Ensign earlier this summer kitted out exactly that way, and I am literate enough to have read his subdued NSCC tape when I got close enough to talk to him to realise that he was not in the USN.

I frequently wear the dark-blue CAP utility jumpsuit and have never been mistaken for Air Force.

We are not the American Red Cross any more than we are the actual military.

I have never met our new NatCC (lame attempt to get thread back on track) - the only ones I actually met were General Bergman and ex-Generalissimo P*n*d* - but it would be interesting to hear General Carr's take on this endless, pointless debate on "distinctiveness."  To me, the whole thing is a red herring because you are never going to get a common consensus on what an empirical definition of "distinctiveness" is.

After all, Australian, Canadian and New Zealand service uniforms are very, very close to their British forbears (excepting the RAAF midnight blue service dress) and the only thing "distinctive" about them is a curved shoulder flash with their nationality.







To me, making something similar saying "CIVIL AIR PATROL" would go a lot further toward "distinctiveness" then endless uniform permutations and further "greying."
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Eclipse

Quote from: CyBorg on October 01, 2011, 11:01:37 PMIn contrast, NSCC wears woodland BDU's with subdued nametapes and metal subdued grade.  I met an Ensign earlier this summer kitted out exactly that way, and I am literate enough to have read his subdued NSCC tape when I got close enough to talk to him to realise that he was not in the USN.

Actually a lot of NSCC units are transitioning to the new NWU, configed in much the same way, and of course their adults wear the same uniforms as the Navy.  Whatever the "issue" is, it has nothing to do with confusion with active forces.

"That Others May Zoom"

PHall

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on October 01, 2011, 01:32:43 PMLastly the new National Commander, is a USAF retiree, so he is fully aware of the realities of complying with USAF requirements as well as their informal guidance to keep us out of hot water, rather than historically with a few "wanna bees" running a muck.
RM

Actually, he's a Air National Guard Retiree.

GMat

No, he is an active duty USAF retiree.

Spaceman3750


JeffDG


The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: Eclipse on October 01, 2011, 11:14:10 PM
Actually a lot of NSCC units are transitioning to the new NWU, configed in much the same way, and of course their adults wear the same uniforms as the Navy.  Whatever the "issue" is, it has nothing to do with confusion with active forces.

The NSCC ensign told me that the acceptance throughout the NSCC of the NWU wasn't going very smoothly, at least at that time, and his unit would be wearing WBDU's for the foreseeable future.

But, yes, of course their adult members wear the same uniforms as the Navy, with very, very little alteration (I think it's just slapping a patch on the left sleeve and different hat device).

If the issue with us isn't "confusion with the active forces," I would ask: what is it that seems to keep poisoning the well between us and the AF?  Some will say, in their experience, that it isn't poisoned at all; I dissent.  When it gets to the point that such a big chunk of our parent service knows nothing about its Auxiliary other than it being a bunch of fatties who don't know how to get a haircut or wear our uniform properly but will try to make you salute them, that doesn't say a lot for the water in said well being exactly sweet.
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JC004

#91
Quote from: SARDOC on October 01, 2011, 09:42:28 PM
Quote from: JC004 on October 01, 2011, 05:05:58 AM
I'm glad this didn't become a uniform thread.

Spoke too soon.

Negative.  Sarcasm. 

Quote from: CyBorg on October 01, 2011, 11:01:37 PM
...
I have never met our new NatCC (lame attempt to get thread back on track) - the only ones I actually met were General Bergman and ex-Generalissimo P*n*d* - but it would be interesting to hear General Carr's take on this endless, pointless debate on "distinctiveness." 
...

I'm not interested in this at all, expect perhaps a tiny bit.

I want to know his take on missions, mission development, technology, and laying the infrastructure to make CAP volunteering a great experience, an easy experience, a rewarding experience, and something with an operations tempo and other opportunities that just blow everyone else away.  In short (so I don't have to write a lot), all the stuff written up in "Solutions for Civil Air Patrol."

bosshawk

Paul M. Reed
Col, USA(ret)
Former CAP Lt Col
Wilson #2777

titanII

Quote from: CyBorg on October 02, 2011, 04:12:24 AM
their adult members wear the same uniforms as the Navy, with very, very little alteration (I think it's just slapping a patch on the left sleeve and different hat device).
[nitpick] There's a NSCC patch on the left sleeve, different hat device, and I think also a NSCC tape above the left pocket [nitpick/]
Sorry for the probably superfluous nitpick.
As for the thread, I think that as long as Gen Carr continues mostly in the direction that Gen Courter went, we'll be fine. Not to say that we shouldn't change anything-- complacency is never a good thing. But General Courter, IMO, was what CAP needed after HWSRN.
No longer active on CAP talk

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: JC004 on October 02, 2011, 07:50:39 AM
Quote from: SARDOC on October 01, 2011, 09:42:28 PM
Quote from: JC004 on October 01, 2011, 05:05:58 AM

Quote from: CyBorg on October 01, 2011, 11:01:37 PM
...
I have never met our new NatCC (lame attempt to get thread back on track) - the only ones I actually met were General Bergman and ex-Generalissimo P*n*d* - but it would be interesting to hear General Carr's take on this endless, pointless debate on "distinctiveness." 
...

I'm not interested in this at all, expect perhaps a tiny bit.

I want to know his take on missions, mission development, technology, and laying the infrastructure to make CAP volunteering a great experience, an easy experience, a rewarding experience, and something with an operations tempo and other opportunities that just blow everyone else away.  In short (so I don't have to write a lot), all the stuff written up in "Solutions for Civil Air Patrol."

The way the organization is currently managed and even organized as far as overall governing,  I don't see ANY National Commander as making a very big impact on the organization.  Generally, my observations is that CAP goes VERY slow in adapting ANY internal changes, unless it is the Air Force that is putting on the pressure (since in reality they ARE the funding source and as THE MAJOR stakeholder (stock holder)),
anything else involving CAP is usually sent to a committee for years of study and than recommendations that may or may not go anywhere.

I think eventually funding support cuts from the USAF is going to have an impact on the organization (wouldn't be surprised to see the free cadet uniform program get reduced)..   One thing that the unpaid volunteers don't need is more required training/administrative mumbo jumbo unless is specifically matches increased operational missions.
RM

   

JC004

What is this?  I know you know how to use the quote feature. 

You make an excellent point that there will be struggles of all kinds with the current messy governance structure.  I think, however, that you are wrong that a national commander can't make a big impact.  In some ways, it's like how a POTUS would make an impact.

I spent a lot of time looking at this issue over 3 months leading up to the election.  I talked to a lot of people, read a lot, went through countless pages of meeting minutes, looked over years of history recorded as it happened on CAPTalk, CAP Blog, and elsewhere, etc., etc., etc.  What worked, what didn't work, what happened when [insert whatever here]...

A national commander CAN make a good and lasting impact on the organization.  This is how we arrived at the central focus of FW's campaign - laying groundwork for igniting the organization.  Pull people in, get great ideas flowing, communicate effectively (and often) with the field, lay out goals, build teams (task forces rather than focusing on committees), etc., etc., etc.

So I think that a national commander can make a big impact on operations, morale, retention, and all the like.  It's just that it requires a lot of work, leadership, field involvement, innovation, communication, etc.

The BOG doesn't involve itself with much of the little stuff, so it's the National Board approving those things and making them roll.  The commander sets that pace, appoints people who will carry out those goals, and makes a real impact all the way to the unit level.  When you have the type of tools and all that we laid out in the proposals, that makes a BIG impact directly and all the way down to the individual unit members.

The focus has to be on the field rather than echelons above reality.  When they have that, they make a big impact, it ignites the membership, CAP retains people, and things get done.

lordmonar

One point......IMHO the National Commander should NOT be making that much of an impact.  It should the be BoG who are shaping our direction and future.  It should be the BoG who is looking into new fields of expertise.

The National Commander should be developing those goals and making it happen.

On the other hand........this is not a democrocy....it is a closed oligarchy.....and what you and I want or think has very little to do with what sort of National Commander we get (this is not to say Wing CC's don't value our ideas).

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

Quote from: lordmonar on October 02, 2011, 09:12:56 PM
One point......IMHO the National Commander should NOT be making that much of an impact.  It should the be BoG who are shaping our direction and future.  It should be the BoG who is looking into new fields of expertise.

The executive leader of any organization is the one who sets the goals and put the pressure on the other internal authoritative bodies to make things happen, without that force of will, the committees and boards within that organization will simply move along status quo until change is imposed from external forces.

This is a universal truth of any large organization or governing body and certainly applies to CAP.

"... you move with the times or the times move you. " Gordon Ramsay

"That Others May Zoom"

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: JC004 on October 02, 2011, 07:03:43 PM
What is this?  I know you know how to use the quote feature. 

You make an excellent point that there will be struggles of all kinds with the current messy governance structure.  I think, however, that you are wrong that a national commander can't make a big impact.  In some ways, it's like how a POTUS would make an impact.



A national commander CAN make a good and lasting impact on the organization.  This is how we arrived at the central focus of FW's campaign - laying groundwork for igniting the organization.  Pull people in, get great ideas flowing, communicate effectively (and often) with the field, lay out goals, build teams (task forces rather than focusing on committees), etc., etc., etc.

So I think that a national commander can make a big impact on operations, morale, retention, and all the like.  It's just that it requires a lot of work, leadership, field involvement, innovation, communication, etc.

The BOG doesn't involve itself with much of the little stuff, so it's the National Board approving those things and making them roll.  The commander sets that pace, appoints people who will carry out those goals, and makes a real impact all the way to the unit level.  When you have the type of tools and all that we laid out in the proposals, that makes a BIG impact directly and all the way down to the individual unit members.

The focus has to be on the field rather than echelons above reality.  When they have that, they make a big impact, it ignites the membership, CAP retains people, and things get done.

Well, again where are CAP's Long Term Goals as approved by the BOG published ???  That is going to drive the entire organization, from strategic to operational planning.    Also FW was up front on his proposals --  I would think that since he didn't get elected that was because most didn't agree with his agenda :-\ ???   So what's the implications overall for CAP,  is it "don't rock the boat" logic that will continue to prevail ???
RM


The CyBorg is destroyed

If there is a "don't rock the boat" attitude up top, I am both frustrated with it but understand it.

I am frustrated with it because if you do what you've always done expecting different results...I think that's Einstein's definition of insanity.  I also remember what Ned said about a bunch of CAP colonels not being disposed toward radical change.

However, given what General Courter had to do to stop a severely-listing boat from going inverted, I understand it.

Nonetheless, it doesn't excuse holding a calcified, afraid-to-tick-off-the-Air Force attitude when one doesn't know what would tick off the AF without asking!

I would hope that a NatCC is more than just a "figurehead," which is how Lordmonar's description sounded to me.
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