Jewish Holidays and CAP Activities

[dogboy]

In the California Wing, activities are often scheduled on Jewish Holidays, making in difficult for Jewish members to participate.

Judaism is not monolithic and level of observance varies. Here's a list of holidays that Jews should not participate in CAP activities except emergency services.

Note there are other holidays on which some believe work should be avoided.

The Jewish calendar is lunar so the date of a holiday on the Gregorian Solar calendar will vary from year to year. Dates for 2009 shown

_________

Passover: No work permitted on April 9-11, 15-16. Work is permitted only on April 12-14 with certain restrictions. Sunset of April 8 through nightfall of April 16

Shavuot: Sunset of May 28 through nightfall of May 30

Rosh Hashanah: Sunset of September 18 through nightfall of September 20

Yom Kippur: Sunset of September 27 through nightfall of September 28

Sukkot: No work permitted on Oct. 3-4. Work is permitted on Oct. 5-9 with certain restrictions. Sunset of October 2 through sunset of October 9

Shemini Atzeret: Sunset of October 9 through nightfall of October 10

Simchat Torah: Nightfall of October 10 through nightfall of October 11

Chanukah: This is not a holiday on which work is forbidden. However it can be an important family holiday. Sunset of December 11 through December 19

_______________________
Of these holidays, virtually all Jews observe Passover, Rosh Hashanah, and Yom Kippur. Observance of other holidays varies.

I'm not a Rabbi. I'm trying to provide common-sense information about these holidays. If your opinion differs, please share it.

Here's a link to the dates of holidays for the next several years
http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday0.htm

[Eclipse]

If a CAP activity is scheduled on a day in which a respective religion prohibits work or requires attendance of a ceremony or service, then the member should simply not come to CAP.

With only 52 weeks in a year, if we start scheduling around every religion, we'll never do anything. 

[Flying Pig]

In my experience, some activities are scheduled around dates outside the control of CAP ie. an airshow, or the availability of the members teaching the course. Summertime = Encampment, long weekends may equal SLS/CLC.  Summertime for Mountain Flying Courses and SAREX's to guarantee good weather and crappy engine performance.   Dont know what to tell ya'.  I know several Jewish members who are very successful in CAWG.  Was this just intended as a public service announcement for the Jewish members, or are you trying to address an issue?

[Eclipse]

Separate, but related, is the assumption that just because its a holiday weekend or some "special" event is happening we should avoid those weekends too.

Superbowl Sunday, to me, is just another Sunday.

And just this last weekend we had a SAREX moved "...because it was Labor Day...". however it turns out most of those who would have participated were planning on doing so because it was Labor Day.

[jimmydeanno]

Many CAP activities already have flexibility for CAP members to be able to observe their religious preferences.  For example, many CAP encampments begin on A Saturday or Sunday.  For many Jews, travel is prohibited on Saturday. 

How ever will they participate in Encampment if they can't get there the first day?  Well, as long as they complete 80%, they're good.

Are you Muslim?  Need to take time to pray throughout the day?  Fine.  Complete 80% and your good.

CAP doesn't discriminate against people practicing there faiths.  You're more than welcome to.  You're a volunteer and if your volunteer time conflicts with your faith, then don't do the volunteer stuff.  Just sayin...

[MIKE]

If a CAP activity is scheduled on a day in which a respective religion prohibits work or requires attendance of a ceremony or service, then the member should simply not come to CAP.

Agreed... You shouldn't try to cater to everyone. That being said those Winter Encampments that get held starting on the 26th of December doesn't sit well with me either.  However; I've also been in a squadron where nearly all the "critical personnel" were Jewish, so no meetings on Jewish holidays.  Probably could have met, but I would have been the only senior available in most cases.

[Major Carrales]

The precarious subject of religion and CAP. 

While I support the religious beliefs of the membership, I must point out that Religion is one of the most personal and passionate of all human endeavors.  In that regard, our practicing it is sort of a "one on one" with our deity...despite the congregation's gathering.

This being said, I cannot impose my Religious beliefs on anyone and would not allow any given Feast Day, Holy Day of Obligation or major celebration of the Roman Catholic Church to cause a CAP activity to be canceled.   I would simply refrain from the CAP activity.

Because of this, it is my belief that others who practice religious worship calling for fasting or strict observance to the Sabbath (be it Saturday or Sunday) to do the same.  After all, it is the sacrifice of the individual to observe the day, not everyone else.   

By the way, as an interesting piece of trivia only slightly related to this thread, a student informed me  today that Doritos are not Kosher.  It seems certain pork products go into their production.

[DBlair]

A bit of a sidenote while on this topic, it reminds me of comments made by a potential member (an Orthodox Jew*) who was highly-qualified, but had difficulty with the issue that most training and events took place on the weekends. She ultimately did not join because of this as she realized that if she wanted to get involved beyond just weekly unit meetings and progress within the program (activities, SLS, ES training, etc), that weekends would be an issue.

Any suggestions of how to deal with this issue? The potential member was very interested and it was the Saturday thing that was the show-stopper.


Interesting Fact:
While Jewish Law requires total adherence to very detailed Shabbat (Sabbath) and Chagim (Holidays) laws and so forth, the reason why some may consider ES missions to be an exception is that Jewish Law allows someone to break these laws if it can be considered that it was an attempt to save a life. That being said, the use of a phone or any electrical device is not allowed, so I'm not sure how they would be notified of the mission in the first place, but the exception does indeed exist for them to participate. (Just thought I'd mention this as it was explained to us via a potential member.)

*Key to Jewish Denominations:
"Reform" = Does not see Jewish law as binding and thus is very lax in observance.
"Conservative" = Follows some of the laws, etc.
"Orthodox" = Sees all Jewish law as binding and believes in absolute adherence.

[Eclipse]

Any suggestions of how to deal with this issue? The potential member was very interested and it was the Saturday thing that was the show-stopper.

Not really - some things are what they are.

I just had a potential member call me and say he worked evenings and weekends, including the meeting nights of his local squadron.  Once you're invested its easier to be a remote presence, but in the first 6 months to a year, darn near impossible if you can't come to meetings and training.

[FW]

Most members who are observant will not participate on those holidays they consider holy.  Each individual must weigh the positives and negatives to membership.  I am not that religious however, there are some holidays I will be with family and, not at mission base for a sarex or the weekly meeting.  I do have priorities and, CAP comes in 2nd certain times.

This practice has not stopped me from "full" participation in CAP. 

[Spike]

^ Agreed!

Like what was said above, if we start catering to every religion, we will never get anything done.

I would rather make it policy that CAP units not meet on Federal Holidays.  Some do not, but others still do.  Since most FED Holidays fall on a Monday, it comes down to "should I go to CAP, or should I eat hot dogs with the family??"

[AirAux]

I have had similar problems with Seventh Day Adventists as their Sabbath is Saturday and that is always a big training day for CAP, SLS, CLC, almost everything.  It didn't work out in this case.  They just couldn't get the required training to stay active and participate.  Choices and priorities just gotta be made.

[arajca]

I've had Chaplains and other religiouns members tell me I can't hold training classes on Sunday. My typical response is they need to deconflict, not me. I have adjusted the schedule to allow for services, usually by moving the start time back an hour or two. At the same time, we have members attending who have a six+ hour drive after the training is over to consider as well.

My OPINION is that if religious folks have a problem with how a course is scheduled, they need to step up and direct one that meets their scheduling needs.

[Cecil DP]

Reminds me that several years ago, I was told by a former Region Commander that the National Boards used to be held in the fall, but that due to the many religious holidays during that period it was permenently moved to the August to avoid the conflict.

[dogboy]

Judaism is not monolithic and level of observance varies. Here's a list of holidays that Jews should not participate in CAP activities except emergency services.

Passover: No work permitted on April 9-11, 15-16. Work is permitted only on April 12-14 with certain restrictions. Sunset of April 8 through nightfall of April 16

Rosh Hashanah: Sunset of September 18 through nightfall of September 20

Yom Kippur: Sunset of September 27 through nightfall of September 28

_______________________

Of these holidays, virtually all Jews observe Passover, Rosh Hashanah, and Yom Kippur. Observance of other holidays varies.

As I explained Judism is not monlithic, and there is great variation in how holidays are celebrated. I indicated the three MOST important holidays: Passover, Rosh Hashanah, and Yom Kippur.

Activities on these days make it essentially impossible for Jew to attend. These are NINE days out of the whole year.

The California Wing conference is scheduled during Rosh Hashanah.

My suggestion would be that units with potentially a strong Jewish presence at least consider the calendar. Other units should at least honor these three holidays.

[dogboy]

Interesting Fact:
While Jewish Law requires total adherence to very detailed Shabbat (Sabbath) and Chagim (Holidays) laws and so forth, the reason why some may consider ES missions to be an exception is that Jewish Law allows someone to break these laws if it can be considered that it was an attempt to save a life. That being said, the use of a phone or any electrical device is not allowed, so I'm not sure how they would be notified of the mission in the first place, but the exception does indeed exist for them to participate.

As I said, Judaism is not monolithic and there are differences of opinion on Jewish laws. For example, in Brooklyn, very Orthodox Jews run an volunteer ambulance service that runs on the Sabbath and holidays. Their opinion is that electrical or mechanical devices can be used as part of the "save a life" exception.

[Spike]

The California Wing conference is scheduled during Rosh Hashanah.

My suggestion would be that units with potentially a strong Jewish presence at least consider the calendar. Other units should at least honor these three holidays.

Why??  We are supposed to leave religious teachings at the door.  We are not supposed to be the local church.  Canceling meetings due to Jewish Holidays is as much of a hit against a non-Jew as having a meeting during a Jewish Holiday is to a Jew. 

Lets all leave our religion out of CAP.  If you can't make a meeting due to Religion, all that is needed is a phone call or email to your Commander stating; "I can not make it to the meeting on ________".  PERIOD

If we started this, then We would never get any work done.

I feel for those that can not attend CAP due to religion, but you made a choice regarding your religion, and that choice was yours and only yours.  No one is stopping you from coming or going, and if they are.......that becomes an IG issue. 

As for those members who don't meet on a particular religious holiday (of which you are not affiliated), tell your Commander: "that practice MUST stop".  If he or she will not listen, Go to the next level in the chain of command.

Now....the only time CAP units should not meet.......FEDERAL Holidays. 

[notaNCO forever]

The California Wing conference is scheduled during Rosh Hashanah.

My suggestion would be that units with potentially a strong Jewish presence at least consider the calendar. Other units should at least honor these three holidays.

Why??  We are supposed to leave religious teachings at the door.  We are not supposed to be the local church.  Canceling meetings due to Jewish Holidays is as much of a hit against a non-Jew as having a meeting during a Jewish Holiday is to a Jew. 

Lets all leave our religion out of CAP.  If you can't make a meeting due to Religion, all that is needed is a phone call or email to your Commander stating; "I can not make it to the meeting on ________".  PERIOD

If we started this, then We would never get any work done.

I feel for those that can not attend CAP due to religion, but you made a choice regarding your religion, and that choice was yours and only yours.  No one is stopping you from coming or going, and if they are.......that becomes an IG issue. 

As for those members who don't meet on a particular religious holiday (of which you are not affiliated), tell your Commander: "that practice MUST stop".  If he or she will not listen, Go to the next level in the chain of command.

Now....the only time CAP units should not meet.......FEDERAL Holidays.

So your squadron has meetings on Christmas if your meeting night is that night?

[dogboy]

Been to any CAP activities on Good Friday, Easter, or Christmas lately?

Permit me to clarify. Nobody suggests that every CAP activity can avoid every Jewish holiday. Obviously meetings go on regardless of Jewish holidays.

But couldn't something as unique as a yearly Wing Conference be held some other time than the most Holy Days in the Jewish calendar?

As for leaving religion at the door, I'm afraid I must disagree. Many members of CAP, including myself, carry our religion with us everywhere. We don't press it on others, we don't refer to it, but it's always there.

[Spike]

Been to any CAP activities on Good Friday, Easter, or Christmas lately?

Permit me to clarify. Nobody suggests that every CAP activity can avoid every Jewish holiday. Obviously meetings go on regardless of Jewish holidays.

But couldn't something as unique as a yearly Wing Conference be held some other time than the most Holy Days in the Jewish calendar?

As for leaving religion at the door, I'm afraid I must disagree. Many members of CAP, including myself, carry our religion with us everywhere. We don't press it on others, we don't refer to it, but it's always there.

Thursday, January 1     New Year's Day
Monday, January 19    Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr.
Monday, February 16*    Washington's Birthday
Monday, May 25    Memorial Day
Friday, July 3**    Independence Day
Monday, September 7    Labor Day
Monday, October 12    Columbus Day
Wednesday, November 11    Veterans Day
Thursday, November 26    Thanksgiving Day
Friday, December 25    Christmas Day

You will see that Almost all Federal Holidays in 2010, will fall on a Monday, and two fall on a Friday and 1 on a Thursday...... So, Christmas Day.....No CAP Meeting (Federal Holiday).  Easter and Good Friday are Catholic/ Christian Holidays, I would have a meeting, and plan to.  BUT isn't Easter always on a Sunday (so that's two of your examples, and lets talk about Good Friday.  Good Friday falls on April 2, 2010.  I have meetings on Mondays.  Most every other CAP unit have meetings on a day OTHER THAN FRIDAY!!!

So your examples are mute points at the least. 

As far as impressing your religion on other......that is exactly what you are doing when you DEMAND to have CAP activities canceled on JEWISH Holidays. 

[Spike]

By the Way here are the Catholic Religions Holidays.  I want these to be "CAP Free days" if Jewish Holidays become "CAP Free days".  (I am not even Catholic, just looking out for the moral welfare of my Catholic Members!)

+ Mary, Mother of God
+ Ash Wednesday
+ Holy Thursday
+ Good Friday
+ Holy Saturday
+ Easter
+ Divine Mercy Sunday
+ Ascension
+ Pentecost
+ Trinity Sunday
+ Corpus Christi
+ Assumption of Mary
+ All Saints Day
+ First Sunday of Advent
+ Immaculate Conception
+ Christmas

[hatentx]

I am going to have to agree with this one.  Religious observancs should be taken into account in some issues.  Like a Wing or Natianal Conference.  Something like a SAREX or traning event not an issue it is something that happenes often enough.  Same thing something that has a meal in it shouldnt be done during Romadom either if it is a once a year thing.  While I agree religion should dictate what we do we can be considerate of those other religions.  Most Christian holidays are given off already so it isnt a hassel for the majority but the minority can atleast be thought of.  It is what we would teach the Cadets in Moral Leadership nights right?

[dogboy]

I'm beginning to detect a pattern in your responses here.

Easter and Good Friday: Easter is on Sunday. Meeting aren't held on Sundays. But what about other activities: training, SLS, CLC, and conferences are never held over Easter weekend.

Christmas Day is a Federal holiday because it is a Christian holiday.

I don't believe that asking the CAP activities be scheduled so they don't conflict with a few Jewish holidays and therefore allow the participation of Jewish members is "impressing your religion on other(s)".

It's perfectly reasonable not to schedule optional activities over Easter or Christmas; I'm only asking that another religion be shown the same courtesy.

[Eclipse]

No one is saying that we shouldn't at least consult a calendar when planning activities, but as has been stated, there are only so many weekends in a year, and my state's calendar fills up fast.

Let's also be clear, Easter and Christmas may have started out as Christian holidays, but they are now more commercial engines than religious festivals.  Certainly people go to church, but more often its family parties, egg hunts and caroling as opposed to Midnight Candle mass and 40 days of fasting. For all intents and purposes these have become mainstream secular observances that a majority of Americans celebrate, including Jewish people.

There was a time in this country when Good Friday meant business ground to a halt, now you generally have to take a floater to even have off.  You can extrapolate that to the other major holidays as well.

CAP is a secular organization, existing within a governmental framework which tries to be tolerant and sensitive to other religions, but is still decidedly Christian in its customs and observances, because so is most of the rest of the country and culture.  That's not going to change any time soon.

[RiverAux]

Many Christian denominations have evening services on various weeknights in addition to Sunday services.  Should we move our meetings to avoid them?

[DBlair]

We each have our own personal beliefs and perspectives on how religious holidays should be observed. We may or may not agree with the beliefs of another person, and this isn't really something we need to be debating here.

Other than the standard Federal holidays, I think a lot of it depends on local issues. For example, if a certain community or Wing has a large Jewish population, then perhaps planning events on major Jewish holidays would not be the best strategic decision as it would yield low participation and prevent a substantial amount of members from participating. That being said, if a specific community does not have such a Jewish population, then it isn't such a pressing issue.

I'm not saying that every religious holiday, day of rest, or event of every religion should be avoided when scheduling events as then we would never get anything done- there is a holiday pretty much every day of the year if you consider every religion out there. Though, I do believe that reasonable accommodations should be made if there is a substantial quantity of members are from a specific religion.

I think of it this way... If I schedule an event on a certain day and many of my members aren't going to be available for whatever reason, then perhaps it would be better to select a different day.

[Strick]

Please dont forget St.Patricks Day for us Irish Catholics(cant fly that day

[Major Carrales]

By the Way here are the Catholic Religions Holidays.  I want these to be "CAP Free days" if Jewish Holidays become "CAP Free days".  (I am not even Catholic, just looking out for the moral welfare of my Catholic Members!)

+ Mary, Mother of God
+ Ash Wednesday
+ Holy Thursday
+ Good Friday
+ Holy Saturday
+ Easter
+ Divine Mercy Sunday
+ Ascension
+ Pentecost
+ Trinity Sunday
+ Corpus Christi
+ Assumption of Mary
+ All Saints Day
+ First Sunday of Advent
+ Immaculate Conception
+ Christmas

Corpus Christi...hummmm?  Maybe my unit should take that day off.

[dogboy]

Easter and Christmas may have started out as Christian holidays, but they are now more commercial engines than religious festivals. 
<snip> For all intents and purposes these have become mainstream secular observances that a majority of Americans celebrate, including Jewish people.

No one can debate that Christmas, at least, has become commercialized; Easter much less so.

However, at least where I live, both Christmas and Easter still are very strong religious holidays with triple and quadrupedal services offered in churches.

My observation is that very, very few Jews celebrate Christmas or Easter as a secular holiday. I've never met a Jew who celebrates Easter in any form and the clear trend is away from the secular celebration of Christmas by Jews.

[Eclipse]

My observation is that very, very few Jews celebrate Christmas or Easter as a secular holiday. I've never met a Jew who celebrates Easter in any form and the clear trend is away from the secular celebration of Christmas by Jews.

Cite please.

[Cecil DP]

Easter and Christmas may have started out as Christian holidays, but they are now more commercial engines than religious festivals. 
<snip> For all intents and purposes these have become mainstream secular observances that a majority of Americans celebrate, including Jewish people.

No one can debate that Christmas, at least, has become commercialized; Easter much less so.

However, at least where I live, both Christmas and Easter still are very strong religious holidays with triple and quadrupedal services offered in churches.

My observation is that very, very few Jews celebrate Christmas or Easter as a secular holiday. I've never met a Jew who celebrates Easter in any form and the clear trend is away from the secular celebration of Christmas by Jews.

correct about the jewish race not celebrating Easter, but Passopver is always within a week of if not coincident with the Easter celebration.

[Major Carrales]

Well, then the true solution is simple...

We divide the Civil Air Patrol (in the tradition Solomon), into Religious sects, thus allowing some people to fill in when others are at service...

Roman Catholic CAP- Lots of feast days and religiously significant days.   

Protestant CAP- Not some many such days, however, the majors are covered.

Eastern Orthodox CAP- Still on the Julian Calendar

Jewish CAP- IAW the Traditions of Judaism

Muslim CAP- IAW the Koran and Traditions of Muhammad

Atheistic CAP- Don't believe they will work

Buddhist CAP- One with everything

While our society has moved away from segregation, this solution is the only one that addresses the issues presented in the above thread.

SERIOUSLY people... do we really have to go there?

[Eclipse]

If you're a "twice-a-year Catholic" and a "twice-a-year CAP member" which organization do you blow off
when a SAREx is scheduled on Good Friday?

[Major Carrales]

If you're a "twice-a-year Catholic" and a "twice-a-year CAP member" which organization do you blow off
when a SAREx is scheduled on Good Friday?

If you are a twice a year "either of those" you are, in fact, neither of those.

[Flying Pig]

^ :clap: :clap:

[Flying Pig]

My father is the pastor of an Assembly of God Church (Christian)

On major holiday, Christmas, Easter, etc. he purposely makes sure his sermon has NOTHING to do with that holiday.  His theory is that if all you do is come to church on holidays, hes going to do more than tell you the bedtime story you came expecting. 

[Gunner C]

I think this might boil down to common sense - schedule meetings that fit for the majority of your people:

• In the bible belt, don't schedule meetings on Sundays and Wednesdays, Easter, and Christmas
• In the Mountain West, don't schedule meetings on Sundays and Mondays, Easter, and Christmas, and the 24th of July
• If you live in a predominately Jewish area such as parts of New York, Memphis Tennessee, and West Helena Arkansas, avoid meetings on Friday, Saturday, and the high holy days
• If you live in Flint, Michigan, don't schedule meetings for Fridays and for the entire month of Ramadan
• If they're the type who go to church three times in their lives (hatched, matched, and dispatched), calendar's open!

Check with your unit chaplain.  He should be able to give you guidance.  But DON'T  summarily exclude people of faith.  You'll limit your unit and miss out on folks who'll add new dimension to the family.

[isuhawkeye]

I am amazed at some of the people on this board.  If a member (or more importantly a group of members) of your unit is/are activley trying to participate in CAP why wouldnt you at least consider developing schedules that acomodate the maximum number of participants?

I dont think that anyone is implying that all possible holidays, or cultural events should be avaided, but shouldnt active members be allowed to participate and advance if they are so motivated?

[arajca]

I am amazed at some of the people on this board.  If a member (or more importantly a group of members) of your unit is/are activley trying to participate in CAP why wouldnt you at least consider developing schedules that acomodate the maximum number of participants?

Since the OP references WING-WIDE activities, which group do you not accomodate? If someone has scheduling issues, they need to deconflict, not expect me to do it for them. When I've started the planning process, I usually send out a wing-wide email saying that I'm looking at doing something in a particular time frame - usually in a particular month. I generally have one or two who respond by letting me know of SAREX's or similar conflicts. I don't get religious scheduling complaints until after I've nailed down the date and aranged for the facility, at which time it's too late.

I dont think that anyone is implying that all possible holidays, or cultural events should be avaided, but shouldnt active members be allowed to participate and advance if they are so motivated?

If you schedule for one group, you have to schedule for all.

All members are allowed to participate. If scheduling doesn't work for someone, THEY need to take steps to correct the problem, not expect me to.

[davedove]

I am amazed at some of the people on this board.  If a member (or more importantly a group of members) of your unit is/are activley trying to participate in CAP why wouldnt you at least consider developing schedules that acomodate the maximum number of participants?

Since the OP references WING-WIDE activities, which group do you not accomodate? If someone has scheduling issues, they need to deconflict, not expect me to do it for them. When I've started the planning process, I usually send out a wing-wide email saying that I'm looking at doing something in a particular time frame - usually in a particular month. I generally have one or two who respond by letting me know of SAREX's or similar conflicts. I don't get religious scheduling complaints until after I've nailed down the date and aranged for the facility, at which time it's too late.

I think what the whole argument boils down to is REASONABLE accomodation or requests.  It is the responsibility of the individuals affected to make their needs known ahead of time.  Then the planners can make REASONABLE allowances.  If they don't alert the planner ahead of time, that's their own problem.

I dont think that anyone is implying that all possible holidays, or cultural events should be avaided, but shouldnt active members be allowed to participate and advance if they are so motivated?

If you schedule for one group, you have to schedule for all.

All members are allowed to participate. If scheduling doesn't work for someone, THEY need to take steps to correct the problem, not expect me to.

Again, as long as the schedule can REASONABLY accomodate the special schedules, there shouldn't be a problem.

I know, someone is going to ask how you determine reasonable.  Well, that's a judgement call in each case and another argument.

[RiverAux]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of automatically writing off Sunday as an acceptable SAREX day.  We have too few weekend days in the year to lose half of them as potential training days. 

[Cecil DP]

The on-line SLS mentioned in another forum is a prime example of how we can manage training and PD when there is a conflict over dates or religious belief.

[Gunner C]

The on-line SLS mentioned in another forum is a prime example of how we can manage training and PD when there is a conflict over dates or religious belief.

Actually, it's just accommodating chaplains.  NHQ never considered accommodating anyone else's religious beliefs.  I have sabbath duties, just as chaplains do, but I wouldn't have been eligible for the online course (I wouldn't take it, either).

[Cecil DP]

Mu understanding is that while it's currently open only to chaplains, it would eventually be open to the general membership or under special circumstances.

SLS On-line (for Chaplains)
(31 Aug 09)

On-line SLS: Now available to chaplains. Chaplains may register through this link or go to the On-line Courses & Exams page in CAP University.  On-line SLS will soon be open to all eligible candidates who would not otherwise be able to attend in residence.  Please note that the primary method of completing SLS is in residence and the on-line option is primarily for those who can not attend in residence.

PD Staff

[Gunner C]

Horrible idea to make separate classes of members like that.  Of course, the chaplains believe they are a separate class.

[DBlair]

The on-line SLS mentioned in another forum is a prime example of how we can manage training and PD when there is a conflict over dates or religious belief.

With the way so many things are now online for CAP, I'm kind of surprised we haven't transitioned completely to online training, be it online videos, or other materials which could accomplish the training without members have to drive several hours each way and get a hotel or perhaps not be able to participate due to religious issues.

It just seems like the availability of an online version of training classes would be ideal to reach more members, considering that it would be cost effective, available on-demand, and wouldn't have travel or scheduling difficulties.

Any thoughts?

[SarDragon]

There are some courses, because of their nature, that really need the face-to-face environment that classroom instruction provides. SLS, CLC, RSC, and NSC come imediately to mind. Any type of instructor training course is another. ACUT is another. All of these have portions that require personal interaction that cannot be achieved in an online course on a nationwide basis, either in the form of discussion, or practical work.

Additionally, some folks just don't learn well in an online environment. There's no one to answer questions, there's little "student management", and not much of an effective feedback mechanism.

The Navy used to have "self-paced" courses that relied primarily on computer-based instruction, and they were canned after a few years, because the quality of the graduates wasn't acceptable for the reasons above.

[Cecil DP]

The on-line SLS mentioned in another forum is a prime example of how we can manage training and PD when there is a conflict over dates or religious belief.

With the way so many things are now online for CAP, I'm kind of surprised we haven't transitioned completely to online training, be it online videos, or other materials which could accomplish the training without members have to drive several hours each way and get a hotel or perhaps not be able to participate due to religious issues.

It just seems like the availability of an online version of training classes would be ideal to reach more members, considering that it would be cost effective, available on-demand, and wouldn't have travel or scheduling difficulties.

Any thoughts?

Though I posted the message supporting the use of the on-line SLS for those who couldn't attend the class as usually conducted on weekends. I do believe this is a last resort. I would prefer that an occassional SLS or CLC be held on weekdays possibly 4 hours a week over a month.

[Major Carrales]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of automatically writing off Sunday as an acceptable SAREX day.  We have too few weekend days in the year to lose half of them as potential training days.

I agree, Sunday should be utilized...and normally is in Texas. 

It has been my experience that in Texas the Friday is used to move aircraft and run a small number of exercises (could be done by "Sunday" Christians freeing up Jews and "Saturday" Christians...which exist because I know a great many for their religious obligation), Saturday is the bulk of training (for Sunday Christians) and Sunday is for the overflow and can run just like Saturday only on Sunday with the returns (for Jews and "Saturday" Christians)  Seems like every one wins if they look at it that way.

I also note that businesses operate on both Christian and Jewish holidays.  Could it be that the one group fills in for the other while they are attending religious needs.  Now, I am going to use a term here that may provoke some reprisal because I understand that in Yiddish circles the latter word can be used as a pejorative for Gentiles.  But as I understand it there can be such a thing as a "Shabat Goy," a person, non-Jewish, who is contracted, or by understanding, to conduct work in an Orthodox home on the sabbath.  Seems like my above solution would follow that model.

Also, Sunday is a sort of Secular "Sabbath" built on traditions that once were Christian, however are now simply a "day off as part of the weekend."

[Gunner C]

The on-line SLS mentioned in another forum is a prime example of how we can manage training and PD when there is a conflict over dates or religious belief.

With the way so many things are now online for CAP, I'm kind of surprised we haven't transitioned completely to online training, be it online videos, or other materials which could accomplish the training without members have to drive several hours each way and get a hotel or perhaps not be able to participate due to religious issues.

It just seems like the availability of an online version of training classes would be ideal to reach more members, considering that it would be cost effective, available on-demand, and wouldn't have travel or scheduling difficulties.

Any thoughts?

Though I posted the message supporting the use of the on-line SLS for those who couldn't attend the class as usually conducted on weekends. I do believe this is a last resort. I would prefer that an occassional SLS or CLC be held on weekdays possibly 4 hours a week over a month.

There are all sorts of combinations that could work - if the chaplains were actually sincere about this, which I believe they are not (not necessarily individually, but as a group). 

I was a training developer for the Special Warfare Center.  There was a good deal of training that we distributed by CD and on the net.  But this type of training was NEVER a candidate.  There's too much value in the group learning experience and too little of it comes through on the net, DVD, or other types of distributed training.

The chaplains corps needs to kept on a short leash.  Find another way to get this training or just do without.

[arajca]

The chaplains corps needs to kept on a short leash.  Find another way to get this training or just do without.

I don't know about the short leash, but it is extremely disingenuous that the Chaplain Corps accepted that they need to do the same PD as every other senior member, then get an exception because of scheduling difficulties.

Sure, they're busy. So is every other senior member, but we can make time for this if we feel it is important. There is nothing stopping a chaplain from directing an SLS or CLC on a schedule the accommodates their needs.

In short, everyone has schedule conflicts. Everyone has to deal with it. Religious folks are no exception. If a course director doesn't take your particular schedule (religious or otherwise) into account when setting up a course, set one up yourself. Take the initative. Besides, directing courses is required for PD advancement.

[a2capt]

...
If a course director doesn't take your particular schedule (religious or otherwise) into account when setting up a course, set one up yourself

Who says the SLS / CLC or whatever two day course must be on a Sunday?

Or Saturday?

The clergy never get a day off? Don't try and sell me that one. There are plenty of fill ins within the community. They all help each other out.

I've been to plenty of SLS/CLCs and other PD activities as staff, after being a student at them, and you know what?

Every one of them has had a chaplain there, if not taking the course, certainly there on Sundays leading a service or gathering in the morning and staying the whole day.

So.. obviously it worked for them to find time. 

[Lt Oliv]

...
If a course director doesn't take your particular schedule (religious or otherwise) into account when setting up a course, set one up yourself

Who says the SLS / CLC or whatever two day course must be on a Sunday?

Or Saturday?

The clergy never get a day off? Don't try and sell me that one. There are plenty of fill ins within the community. They all help each other out.

I've been to plenty of SLS/CLCs and other PD activities as staff, after being a student at them, and you know what?

Every one of them has had a chaplain there, if not taking the course, certainly there on Sundays leading a service or gathering in the morning and staying the whole day.

So.. obviously it worked for them to find time.

This thread is actually starting to irritate me for comments like this, so I will make one post and one post only.

I am a Conservative Jew.  My wife is a Conservative Rabbi and a CAP Chaplain. 

In our town, there are two Rabbis.  One is Reform, the other Conservative. 

Saturday is out for all CAP Activities, for both of us.  We don't demand that things be scheduled around us, we just don't attend activities on Saturday.  On Sunday, my wife still works with evening services and often some sort of day activity. 

Ideally, she gets Monday off.  In an aging congregation, we have gone three MONTHS without her having a day off because a funeral automatically cancels any plans for time away from the synagogue. 

So back off Chaplains.  They don't always have someone who can cover them.  And unlike you, my and the rest of secular society, don't have two consecutive days off her week with which they can simply get away from the office. 

My Group has Commanders Call on Saturdays.  I do not attend, I catch up with the Commander at the next group meeting.  No problem.

Airshow work tends to start on Friday night and into Saturday, I don't go. 

I do attend meetings, I also perform all of the duties of my current assignment.  I have not had one complaint.  I keep kosher, but I don't expect everyone in my group to do the same.  If I show up and they are serving non-kosher meat (even if that meat is beef, chicken or turkey), I just don't eat it.  I don't kick up a fuss and whine about it.  I eat at my house or in establishments which are under the supervision of a Rabbi.

However, if I noticed that everything was scheduled on Saturday, I'd probably leave.  Moreover, I wouldn't talk up the organization when I'm with friends.  As a result, CAP will lose current members and the possibility of new members because I would be quite vocal were it not "Jewish friendly." 

But that has not happened.  There is a big difference between scheduling so as to completely exclude members of a particular religion or religious class (Saturday Sabbath Observers) and simply employing days that many people have off anyway.  We're big Jewish boys and girls, we know what we can go to and what we cannot.  We don't need CAP to try to cater to us, and we really don't need people to be offended for us for a perceived slight.

[AirDX]

^Yay, Ollie!  :clap:

I'm going to refer to the CAP core values again, in particular, Respect.

Everyone in this thread needs to lighten up.  Some folks, because of their beliefs, can't or won't participate in CAP activities on some days.  Some folks can't participate in CAP activities on certain days becasue of work.  Oh well!  Welcome them when they can participate.  If we can, make accomodations so that all can participate on some level, but geez.... have some respect!

[Jill]

Ollie,

Thank you for your post.  I am Reformed and my husband is Conservative.  We attend what we can, when we can. 

[Cecil DP]

Great post Ollie. To qoute Sir Charlie Chaplain " I don't have the honor of being Jewish", but I think you spoke for everyone who has a religious or professional conflicts with the CAP schedule. 

[Jill]

Ollie,

By the way,  our cousin is a Rabbi.  I understand your wife's demands.  Especially in regards to funerals.  Many do not understand jewish law and what is required.

Enjoy the celebration of ראש השנה .

Jill

[Jill]

By the way, my husband is Rick Finkelstein who was promoted to Major.

Goodnight...

Jill

[Spike]

Wow.....three pages and ??

I got lost about three times. 

[ol'fido]

Wow.....three pages and ??

I got lost about three times.

Well,.. at least it aint a uniform thread.

[arajca]

Wow.....three pages and ??

I got lost about three times.

Well,.. at least it aint a uniform thread.

We can fix that... :angel:

[LittleIronPilot]

The California Wing conference is scheduled during Rosh Hashanah.

My suggestion would be that units with potentially a strong Jewish presence at least consider the calendar. Other units should at least honor these three holidays.

Why??  We are supposed to leave religious teachings at the door.  We are not supposed to be the local church.  Canceling meetings due to Jewish Holidays is as much of a hit against a non-Jew as having a meeting during a Jewish Holiday is to a Jew. 

Lets all leave our religion out of CAP.  If you can't make a meeting due to Religion, all that is needed is a phone call or email to your Commander stating; "I can not make it to the meeting on ________".  PERIOD

If we started this, then We would never get any work done.

I feel for those that can not attend CAP due to religion, but you made a choice regarding your religion, and that choice was yours and only yours.  No one is stopping you from coming or going, and if they are.......that becomes an IG issue. 

As for those members who don't meet on a particular religious holiday (of which you are not affiliated), tell your Commander: "that practice MUST stop".  If he or she will not listen, Go to the next level in the chain of command.

Now....the only time CAP units should not meet.......FEDERAL Holidays.

So your squadron has meetings on Christmas if your meeting night is that night?

Christmas...much to the chagrin of many christians, has far transcended religious meaning for many, many people.

[Gunner C]

That is so true. But it happens to just about every group.  My grandfather, a Polish Jew, loved the holiday season - loved them all.  He combined, when they were close together, Hanukkah and Christmas and enjoyed New Years.  He loved the parties, the gifts, getting together with family and friends, but he, unfortunately, forgot the meaning behind the holiday.

In my family, we keep the gift-giving to a minimum and maximize the story behind the holiday.  My wife and I make sure we spend time with family and don't usually go to parties and stuff.  My kids love Santa at the mall, but they know what the meaning behind the tradition of giving gifts.  We also do acts of service and try to make sure that anyone we know who's alone has a place to go (our place).

Whether a member goes to CAP meetings on holidays is, of course, up to them.  A unit needs to determine wisely if they're going to knowingly schedule events on major religious holidays.  If a chaplain is doing their job, they should advise the commander on these matters.  I wouldn't want anyone to feel that they're not an important part of they unit just because they're religious.  I costs pennies more to go first class.

[AirDX]

Festivus for the Rest of Us!

[Spike]

^ MAN...beat me to it!

[Gunner C]

Festivus for the Rest of Us!

Well, that's the last time I ever talk about childhood memory.  What a jerk.  My grandfather was FAR from some STUPID Seinfeld caricature.

[Eclipse]

Festivus for the Rest of Us!

Well, that's the last time I ever talk about childhood memory.  What a jerk.  My grandfather was FAR from some STUPID Seinfeld caricature.

I didn't take that to be remotely related to this - simply a reaction to a thread which has outlived its useful life.  I can't believe I left George's family on the table that long...