Please get rid of the plastic encased ranks

Started by piperl4, March 09, 2008, 06:24:24 PM

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JohnKachenmeister

If you take a blue BDU, and put the UM blue tapes on it, the brand-new BBDU will look "Salty" because the UM tapes appear to have faded.  Even if they are new, since they are a lighter shade of blue, your NEW uniform looks like it is due for replacement.

I can live with dark blue rank on the green bag.  I could live better with full color on a sage green background, but some people think the extra 70 cents would be too costly.

But get rid of the plastic rank and ...

GET RID OF THE ULTRAMARINE BLUE!

Dark blue tapes on the BBDU, BDU and only if necessary, the green bag.
Another former CAP officer

mikeylikey

Why make one set of people (BBDU) look better than everyone else?  The vast majority do not wear Blue uniforms.  Make the uniforms that are predominantly worn look good, let the uniforms that are seldom worn look like crap instead!
What's up monkeys?

Eagle400

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 26, 2008, 10:09:43 PM
Why make one set of people (BBDU) look better than everyone else?  The vast majority do not wear Blue uniforms.  Make the uniforms that are predominantly worn look good, let the uniforms that are seldom worn look like crap instead!

Wait, so it's okay for the uniform that is most commonly worn to look good, but those who cannot wear it should be stuck with a crappy alternative?  That would be just as unfair as if it were the other way around. 

If what you suggest were to happen, those with thyroid problems, pregnancy, bulimia, and other medical issues resulting in weight gain would have a fit and some may even sue on the basis of discrimination.  I can just see it now... "My commander is making me wear a uniform with nametapes that look faded and dramatically different than those worn by folks who don't have medical problems, and that is demeaning."

I'm not by any means politically-correct, but there needs to be standardization of all CAP uniform items so no one is left out.  One team, one look!  

DrJbdm

First of all you can not sue for discrimination based on your OPINION that you think your fat people uniforms are not as nice looking as the in shape people's uniform is. That is not discrimination. that is a personal opinion.

  Second, the idea of one set of tapes, insignia, etc for ALL uniforms so no one feels left out is ridicules .  If that was to happen we would look just as bad as we do now, our tapes/insignias should be matched as closely as the AF will allow with the fabric of what we are wearing. EG: sage rank (full color) on the AF flight suit, blue rank on the blue flight suit. blue tapes on the BBDU and hopefully something close to sage on the ABU/BDU. Lets stop trying to look like clowns who have no idea of color matching. it makes us look like a bunch of amateurs.

Eagle400

Quote from: DrJbdm on March 26, 2008, 11:19:28 PM
First of all you can not sue for discrimination based on your OPINION that you think your fat people uniforms are not as nice looking as the in shape people's uniform is. That is not discrimination. that is a personal opinion.

No.  I'm talking about fat people suing because they are required to wear tapes that look faded compared to the ones worn by those who are in shape and wear AF uniforms.   

Quote from: DrJbdm on March 26, 2008, 11:19:28 PMSecond, the idea of one set of tapes, insignia, etc for ALL uniforms so no one feels left out is ridicules.

Just so you know, I was not referring to blues or flight suit... just BDU's.   

Quote from: DrJbdm on March 26, 2008, 11:19:28 PM... our tapes/insignias should be matched as closely as the AF will allow with the fabric of what we are wearing. EG: sage rank (full color) on the AF flight suit, blue rank on the blue flight suit. blue tapes on the BBDU and hopefully something close to sage on the ABU/BDU. Lets stop trying to look like clowns who have no idea of color matching. it makes us look like a bunch of amateurs.

I agree, and all I'm saying is that if blue is used for both the ABU and BBDU, it should be the same shade for both uniforms. 

DrJbdm

QuoteNo.  I'm talking about fat people suing because they are required to wear tapes that look faded compared to the ones worn by those who are in shape and wear AF uniforms.   

 
    Fat people have no basis for a law suit, it's not discrimination that the fat clothes have name tapes that LOOK faded based on the material. It's a matter of personal opinion.

   Personally I think CAP NEEDS to have a strict weight limit for certain members for safety reasons...I'm talking about flight crew. Our useful load in our aircraft is so small now that we simply can not even have two fat pilots aboard; let alone add a scanner to the mix.

I think flight crew members should have to maintain AF weight standards and be no heavier then about 215 pounds. Otherwise if we keep getting fatter pretty soon our flight crew will only be able to consist of one person.....the pilot! Either that or CAP will have start getting Cessna Caravans so we can keep a decent useful load.

  Don't get upset because I called the BBDU "fat clothes" I know that there are many others who CHOOSE to wear them. BUT they where conceived because of two different types of members who by AF policy can not wear the AF uniform....the fatties and the fuzzies. I'm not picking on the fat people here, I'm simply stating you can't realistically sue because you don't like how the tapes look. the fatties might as well sue the Air Force or CAP for discrimination because they are barred from wearing the AF uniform....but that would be a monumentally bad idea!!

DNall

#106
Quote from: CCSE on March 26, 2008, 10:27:34 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 26, 2008, 10:09:43 PM
Why make one set of people (BBDU) look better than everyone else?  The vast majority do not wear Blue uniforms.  Make the uniforms that are predominantly worn look good, let the uniforms that are seldom worn look like crap instead!

Wait, so it's okay for the uniform that is most commonly worn to look good, but those who cannot wear it should be stuck with a crappy alternative?  That would be just as unfair as if it were the other way around.
Don't propose it the other way around is the point I think he was making. IE - don't put blue tapes/grade/etc on green uniforms or vice versa. Match the background to the uniform, cause that's what looks right. One set for everything becomes a debate of who gets made to look like a clown so the other side can look right. There's no advantage to that. It's not cheaper to produce everything (embroidered items) in one color than two common colors (not ultramarine). It's just as easy to order the right stuff by matching colors. It only gets complicated when we have all dif insignia & it's not color coded to the uniform it belongs with.

And by the way, I dare someone to sue me for discrimination on the basis of them being fat & not liking uniform decisions. Here in a para-military organization wearing uniforms authorized by the real military, with real grade, with legal protection against other people imitating us, operating hundreds of millions of dollars in govt purchased resources, charged with highly intensive SaR/DR/HLS missions, etc. The jury is going to be looking at the whiny civilian over there asking if that's what they have to depend on protecting them in time of need, and if they need to hold it against a leader for trying to enforce or raise standards on such a person. Yeah, bring that suit on.

TmanF22

National, I'm sure does it best with regulation changes. However like anything else they know something we don't. 39-1 leaves gaps a mile wide in specification on any item. Now with that having been said under these circumstances, you could probable put anything on your shoulders and no one could say anything.

DNall

uhh.... I'm pretty sure it spells out plastic encased grade for green flt suits. Could you put something on there & not be disciplined for it in CAP? Of course, but there's a difference between right & wrong. Doing wrong cause you can get away with it or you think it looks cool or whatever makes you a bad person & undeserving of being in CAP.

afgeo4

Quote from: DNall on March 27, 2008, 08:37:49 AM
Quote from: CCSE on March 26, 2008, 10:27:34 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 26, 2008, 10:09:43 PM
Why make one set of people (BBDU) look better than everyone else?  The vast majority do not wear Blue uniforms.  Make the uniforms that are predominantly worn look good, let the uniforms that are seldom worn look like crap instead!

Wait, so it's okay for the uniform that is most commonly worn to look good, but those who cannot wear it should be stuck with a crappy alternative?  That would be just as unfair as if it were the other way around.
Don't propose it the other way around is the point I think he was making. IE - don't put blue tapes/grade/etc on green uniforms or vice versa. Match the background to the uniform, cause that's what looks right. One set for everything becomes a debate of who gets made to look like a clown so the other side can look right. There's no advantage to that. It's not cheaper to produce everything (embroidered items) in one color than two common colors (not ultramarine). It's just as easy to order the right stuff by matching colors. It only gets complicated when we have all dif insignia & it's not color coded to the uniform it belongs with.

And by the way, I dare someone to sue me for discrimination on the basis of them being fat & not liking uniform decisions. Here in a para-military organization wearing uniforms authorized by the real military, with real grade, with legal protection against other people imitating us, operating hundreds of millions of dollars in govt purchased resources, charged with highly intensive SaR/DR/HLS missions, etc. The jury is going to be looking at the whiny civilian over there asking if that's what they have to depend on protecting them in time of need, and if they need to hold it against a leader for trying to enforce or raise standards on such a person. Yeah, bring that suit on.
The background will be blue when we switch to ABUs. I think we should wait to switch until that change is made.
GEORGE LURYE

O-Rex

Quote from: DNall on April 17, 2008, 06:39:34 AM
uhh.... I'm pretty sure it spells out plastic encased grade for green flt suits. Could you put something on there & not be disciplined for it in CAP? Of course, but there's a difference between right & wrong. Doing wrong cause you can get away with it or you think it looks cool or whatever makes you a bad person & undeserving of being in CAP.

Regs nonwithstanding, you just can't find plastic-encased rank anywhere.

Even my "nameless" flightsuit nametag supplier no longer carries them, as they are items that have gone out of use in the military decades ago.

NB/NEC and CAP-USAF need to make a decision on this sooner than later.

DNall

Quote from: O-Rex on April 22, 2008, 04:57:42 PM
Quote from: DNall on April 17, 2008, 06:39:34 AM
uhh.... I'm pretty sure it spells out plastic encased grade for green flt suits. Could you put something on there & not be disciplined for it in CAP? Of course, but there's a difference between right & wrong. Doing wrong cause you can get away with it or you think it looks cool or whatever makes you a bad person & undeserving of being in CAP.

Regs nonwithstanding, you just can't find plastic-encased rank anywhere.

Even my "nameless" flightsuit nametag supplier no longer carries them, as they are items that have gone out of use in the military decades ago.

NB/NEC and CAP-USAF need to make a decision on this sooner than later.
I agree, but you can't just put something else on there cause you feel like it. What would happen to uniforms if people started taking that kind of attitude?

Quote from: afgeo4 on April 22, 2008, 04:34:05 PM
The background will be blue when we switch to ABUs. I think we should wait to switch until that change is made.
The background color for tapes grade will have to be changed with the move to ABUs, not after we're in them. Hopefully that'll be closer to matching the background - therefore less idiotic looking. BBDUs just need to go to all dark blue cause that's what looks right there. That doesn't mean it looks good on anything else.

O-Rex

Quote from: DNall on April 22, 2008, 05:13:26 PM
I agree, but you can't just put something else on there cause you feel like it. What would happen to uniforms if people started taking that kind of attitude?

I wholeheartedly agree: but with no plastic encased rank available anywhere, you're out of uniform either way.

I'm not advocating that members "wing it" as they see fit,  just that this is a more immediate uniform-related issue to address than the Blue Berets and Ranger regalia currently on the NEC agenda.

BDU/ABU nametapes are a little further out on the horizon, and there's still a few years to beat that horse to death.

CAP has alot of folks in flightsuits, and as members become aircrew, and current aircrew are promoted, we need to give them something to wear from what's currently available.

Pylon

Interim solution: source them elsewhere.


http://www.military-patches.com/airforce/officerrankinsignia.html
Sells plastic-encased USAF rank insignia for between $16 - $40/pair

or try eBay or the requesting on the CAPTalk Marketplace
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

O-Rex


Al Sayre

I know of at least one inventive person who just went and bought metal rank, clipped off the pins, laminated it and sewed it to his flight suit...  It looks a little bigger than the ones from the factory, but if you don't know what you are looking for it's very hard to tell.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

O-Rex

Quote from: Al Sayre on April 22, 2008, 05:59:22 PM
I know of at least one inventive person who just went and bought metal rank, clipped off the pins, laminated it and sewed it to his flight suit...  It looks a little bigger than the ones from the factory, but if you don't know what you are looking for it's very hard to tell.

As an avid 'do it yourself-er,' I'd be interested in how they did it (and made it look decent.)

I've seen people do horrid things with plastic-encased rank, i.e., hand sew them, etc.  I know someone who tried what you just described with sticky-back "combat-acetate" (do they still make that?) and after a while, it started to cloud inside, and looked bad.

The astronomically priced rank sold on the link above appears to be just what you described.

Nonetheless, we need an economical long-term fix.....

LittleIronPilot

Quote from: O-Rex on April 22, 2008, 05:40:43 PM
Quote from: DNall on April 22, 2008, 05:13:26 PM
I agree, but you can't just put something else on there cause you feel like it. What would happen to uniforms if people started taking that kind of attitude?

I wholeheartedly agree: but with no plastic encased rank available anywhere, you're out of uniform either way.

I'm not advocating that members "wing it" as they see fit,  just that this is a more immediate uniform-related issue to address than the Blue Berets and Ranger regalia currently on the NEC agenda.

BDU/ABU nametapes are a little further out on the horizon, and there's still a few years to beat that horse to death.

CAP has alot of folks in flightsuits, and as members become aircrew, and current aircrew are promoted, we need to give them something to wear from what's currently available.


Good point! So if someone gets promoted do they continue to wear their old rank (thus being out of uniform), go without rank (thus being out of uniform), or go without rank (thus being out of uniform).

Can you see the theme here.....right NOW Officers are being put in an untenable position, wear the green flight suit out of regulation, or do not wear it, both sucky choices.

O-Rex

Quote from: Pylon on April 22, 2008, 05:49:32 PM
or try eBay or the requesting on the CAPTalk Marketplace

Problem is, with relatively few exceptions, Lt. Col's usually tend to hang onto their rank.  ;)

Smithsonia

If I remember right: The plastic encased ranks came from Air Force Pilots catching particularly their Captain's bars on every little strap and do-hicky and crunching the bars or sheding the bars making for FOD in the plane or on the airfield. The plastic kept the corners of the rank from catching, kept them clean, and kept the pieces together if a gut bust 9 G turn while hanging in the straps bent your rank a little.

So since the Air Force had their reasons for plastic encasment... I'd go with that. That said, the Army has gone to a uniform that has everything from reverse field flag, to rank insignias, to ID badges, and Group patches floating on a carpet of velcro. I suppose that could work on the flight suit too. The Army wants a ready to strip off everything at a moments notice battle uniform... which comes in handy mostly on wash day and so your badges and patches don't fade out. But I suppose theres a limited to how many things the AF wants to hang on a flight suit.
With regards;
1Lt. Ed OBrien
CO Heritage Project Officer
With regards;
ED OBRIEN