Please get rid of the plastic encased ranks

Started by piperl4, March 09, 2008, 06:24:24 PM

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Gunner C

Quote from: bte on March 24, 2008, 09:22:21 PM
Quote from: DNall on March 24, 2008, 08:39:05 PM
The dark blue flight suit, util, and BBDU all use dark blue grade. In fact the only thing that does use ultramarine grade is BDUs.

The BBDU uses utramarine and not dark blue insignia. The dark blue is only for utility and new dark blue NOMEX flight suit.


I've always wondered why they didn't just get rid of the ultramarine and use the dark blue on the BBDUs.  Seems logical to me (oops, just answered my own question).  :o

GC

DNall

My mistake. I've commonly seen BBDUs with dark blue grade. I thought that was one of the many things in transition.

My point though is ultramarine is not universal on our uniforms, so there's no merit in that as a justification.

Ultramarine is almost universally disliked (at the least) by membership. I understand where it came from, but as someone else said, there's a difference between positive useful traditions & being stuck in the past, left behind by the modern AF & world - be that ES trng, technology, or uniforms.

My understanding is that we're trying to move away from ultramarine as we move to ABUs, and that BBDU would go to dark blue at the same time if not before. Such a decision obviously being highly popular with membership. As well as, presenting a much more professional & aesthetic appearance. Why then would we even consider extending use of ultramarine grade to another item - especially in this case where the existing see-thru plastic gives a sage background already? Literally the closest thing we can do to what we have now is color grade on OD background. under the current emergency circumstances, why is that not being asked of AF for priority review?


Eagle400

Quote from: DNall on March 25, 2008, 08:58:44 AM
My point though is ultramarine is not universal on our uniforms, so there's no merit in that as a justification.

I agree.  I think the use of dark blue rank on the blue flight suit is a foreshadowing of dark blue tapes on all applicable utility uniforms, but right now that's just a guess.    

Quote from: DNall on March 25, 2008, 08:58:44 AMUltramarine is almost universally disliked (at the least) by membership. I understand where it came from, but as someone else said, there's a difference between positive useful traditions & being stuck in the past, left behind by the modern AF & world - be that ES trng, technology, or uniforms.

Yes, and you can add me to the list of people who have always disliked the ultramarine blue tapes.  I was a cadet for 8 years, and hated having to wear such an embarassing color on my uniform.

I mean, CAP might as well be wearing brown doughboy hats and cloth putees; they are about as attractive as the ultramarine blue tapes, and are also ancient uniform items.

Quote from: DNall on March 25, 2008, 08:58:44 AMMy understanding is that we're trying to move away from ultramarine as we move to ABUs, and that BBDU would go to dark blue at the same time if not before. Such a decision obviously being highly popular with membership. As well as, presenting a much more professional & aesthetic appearance. Why then would we even consider extending use of ultramarine grade to another item - especially in this case where the existing see-thru plastic gives a sage background already?

Yes, and I too am in favor of having every utility uniform go to dark blue tapes. 

But if CAP wants to go to ultramarine blue rank on the AF flight suit before then, that wouldn't be that bad of a decision; cloth is much, much easier to sew on than plastic will ever be.

Also, it wouldn't be much different than what the military sometimes does.  Remember the ICB?  There was no reason at all to come out with a new issue black leather combat boot before going to a new uniform that requires a different style issue boot made out suede, with a totally different color.
     
Quote from: DNall on March 25, 2008, 08:58:44 AMLiterally the closest thing we can do to what we have now is color grade on OD background. under the current emergency circumstances, why is that not being asked of AF for priority review?

Because they will never approve it; it looks too much like the AF rank insignia.

As much as you and I would like to see full color on OD rank insignia for the AF flight suit, dark blue is much more distinctive and is more likely to be approved.

cnitas

Quote from: CCSE on March 25, 2008, 02:27:32 PM

Because they will never approve it; it looks too much like the AF rank insignia.

As much as you and I would like to see full color on OD rank insignia for the AF flight suit, dark blue is much more distinctive and is more likely to be approved.
How do you know this?

There was a time not too long ago when the AF also wore plastic encased rank *concurrently* with CAP ::GASP::   :o

I do not see any problem whatsoever going with sage background and bright rank.
Mark A. Piersall, Lt Col, CAP
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

mikeylikey

How about NO RANK.  It is already on your namebadge.  Lets get rid of rank altogether!  It really means nothing, and CAP NHQ publishes pamphlets that say exactly that.....
What's up monkeys?

cnitas

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 25, 2008, 04:28:36 PM
  It really means nothing, and CAP NHQ publishes pamphlets that say exactly that.....

Really?  Which ones?
Mark A. Piersall, Lt Col, CAP
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

Eagle400

Quote from: cnitas on March 25, 2008, 06:01:11 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 25, 2008, 04:28:36 PM
  It really means nothing, and CAP NHQ publishes pamphlets that say exactly that.....

Really?  Which ones?

You won't find them; it is the actions of many members that have made rank in CAP meaningless. 

Remember the old saying, actions speak louder than words?  It's true!

Just like a medal that's handed out like candy, the prestige of the rank is tarnished and the feeling of satisfaction that comes with achieving it is diminished.   

DNall

Quote from: cnitas on March 25, 2008, 03:23:54 PM
Quote from: CCSE on March 25, 2008, 02:27:32 PM

Because they will never approve it; it looks too much like the AF rank insignia.

As much as you and I would like to see full color on OD rank insignia for the AF flight suit, dark blue is much more distinctive and is more likely to be approved.
How do you know this?

There was a time not too long ago when the AF also wore plastic encased rank *concurrently* with CAP ::GASP::   :o

I do not see any problem whatsoever going with sage background and bright rank.
I would agree with that statement. AF grade on flight suits is subdued. Full-color is highly distinguishable from that. It has no more or less appearance of being a real mil officer than see thru plastic, and in fact appears as close to what we have as is reasonably possible.

I would be asking the AF right now for an emergency approval of off-the-shelf color on OD sew on for flight suits, citing safety & insurance concerns of keeping as many aircrew in PPE as possible. I'd be willing to accept an interm authorization (6-12mos) until supply of plastic encased can be sufficiently restored at a reasonable cost, or a perm decision can be made on keeping sewn on grade.

If & only if they refuse that, then I'd talk about dark blue as a second option & ultrmarine as a last option. Personally, I'd call it a toss up of keeping black background versus restored plastic encased, just from a aesthetic point of view. Clearly sewn on is much more user friendly & inexpensive.


Quote from: mikeylikey on March 25, 2008, 04:28:36 PM
How about NO RANK.  It is already on your namebadge.  Lets get rid of rank altogether!  It really means nothing, and CAP NHQ publishes pamphlets that say exactly that.....
Respectfully sir, I understand you dislike CAP's grade system. I understand that it doesn't have anything approaching UCMJ authority & that grade doesn't necessarily track with position in the way that it normally (but not always) does in the military. I'd whole-heartedly agree that we need to reform our grade and assignment system in a reasonable way that increases quality, credibility, & operational effectiveness across-the board. However, that's not the matter being discussed.

Grade does exist in CAP, and as long as that's the case it must be appropriately indicated on uniforms following the example set for us by our proponent (the AF).

mikeylikey

Quote from: DNall on March 25, 2008, 06:23:51 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 25, 2008, 04:28:36 PM
How about NO RANK.  It is already on your namebadge.  Lets get rid of rank altogether!  It really means nothing, and CAP NHQ publishes pamphlets that say exactly that.....
Respectfully sir, I understand you dislike CAP's grade system. I understand that it doesn't have anything approaching UCMJ authority & that grade doesn't necessarily track with position in the way that it normally (but not always) does in the military. I'd whole-heartedly agree that we need to reform our grade and assignment system in a reasonable way that increases quality, credibility, & operational effectiveness across-the board. However, that's not the matter being discussed.

Grade does exist in CAP, and as long as that's the case it must be appropriately indicated on uniforms following the example set for us by our proponent (the AF).

D....I was a huge proponenet of keeping rank and grade in CAP, but I find myself to just get frustrated at times.  There are so many that have for years said "just get rid of it", or do like the "Coast Guard AUX does", so I have decided to just follow suit.  Until a change comes that makes the rank insignia representative of something more than it currently is, all it does it make the individual feel better about themselves.  (I for one, want people to feel good about themselves, but historically in CAP, rank and grade and who reports to who was much clearer than it currently is, and I would like to see the organization move back into that system)
What's up monkeys?

Eagle400

I think we are forgetting an important fact...

The value of CAP rank is determined by the actions of the membership. 

If commanders make it easy to promote people up to Lt Col, provide advanced rank to folks who don't deserve it, and give officers tasks not equal to their level of responsibility, they are doing 3 things:

1) They are diminishing the value of rank for everyone, including themselves

2) They are cheating people out of the experience they are supposed to be getting

3) They are reducing the productivity of their chain of command

Let's remember this as we discuss this issue.

arajca

#90
All thia about the value of rank/grade in CAP is interesting, but let's get back to the topic at hand - the plastic encased grade insignia.

As has been mentioned, Vanguard is having difficulty finding a reliable, quality source for this insignia. Within two months, they will make a determination as whether they will carry plastic encased grade insignia. (as stated at the NB meeting) If they do not, CAP will present an emergency request to the AF to authorize cloth grade insignia on the green flight suit and jacket (again, stated at the NB meeting). The options are:
1. Subdued on sage/olive fabric - not likely to get approved, looks too much like the AF.
2. Full color on sage/olive fabric - more possible than 1, but still unlikely.
3. Full color on dark blue - IMHO, most likely to get approved. Maintains continuity with the blue flight suit and utility uniforms, which are currently authorized this insignia.
4. Full color on ultramarine blue - Very likely to get approved, neck-and-neck with 3. UGLY!
5. No grade insignia - Would cause great complaining from the rank and file. Due to past history of flight suits without grade, not as likely as 3 or 4, but more the 1.

IMHO, presenting 1 or 2 may result in 4 being approved, given the current feelings on both sides. Presenting 3 is the best option.

Again, just my opinion.

* Flightsuits (and bdu's) without grade used be able to be worn by all members without regard to h/w standards. Many still remember this - on both sides. Due to many members ignoring the rules, the utility uniform and bbdu were implemented.

DNall

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 25, 2008, 06:33:14 PM
D....I was a huge proponenet of keeping rank and grade in CAP, but I find myself to just get frustrated at times.  There are so many that have for years said "just get rid of it", or do like the "Coast Guard AUX does", so I have decided to just follow suit.  Until a change comes that makes the rank insignia representative of something more than it currently is, all it does it make the individual feel better about themselves.  (I for one, want people to feel good about themselves, but historically in CAP, rank and grade and who reports to who was much clearer than it currently is, and I would like to see the organization move back into that system)
See I agree with most of that. It's just not the topic under discussion.

Quick off topic, then we'll move on:
I also feel very frustrated with it at times. However, I disagree with the "just get rid of it" bit. It is indicative of some minimal things, which I know has limited but some usefulness.

I don't like the CG-Aux system at all. No offense to them, but it's a democratic process in a para-military organization. Impose that on our politically charged system & you have a nightmare that doesn't remotely reward merit or cause the cream to rise to the top.

I do favor a much reformed PD/adult program that does a much better job of developing leaders from within rather than relying on skills people bring from outside. And I favor using the AF educational system as a model, while utilizing elements from ARNG OCS & ACA in terms of format, with the addition of technology for remote delivery. I also favor promoting to slots in a limited way & holding field grade above the Sq level. There's been several several threads on the topic, and of course many opinions.

Until some kind of major meaningful reform can occur, we're stuck with what we got. What that happens to be is a volunteer organization that rewards members with fairly meaningless bling (grade, ribbons, positions, etc). That self-importance & pride are the paycheck for what CAP does. The AF knows that. They look at our wear of the AF uniform in the same way. I'd love to make it all more meaningful & practical, but I'm not in a position personally to make that happen. I will let you know though when I get elected president.

As I said though, as long as CAP has grade, it must be indicated on uniforms in an appropriate - meaning taken from the example set for us by the AF.  /end off topic, back to your regularly shceduled programing.

DNall

Quote from: arajca on March 25, 2008, 07:04:13 PM
As has been mentioned, Vanguard is having difficulty finding a reliable, quality source for this insignia. Within two months, they will make a determination as whether they will carry plastic encased grade insignia. (as stated at the NB meeting) If they do not, CAP will present an emergency request to the AF to authorize cloth grade insignia on the green flight suit and jacket (again, stated at the NB meeting).

Thank you for that clarification.  8)
I would not even propose #1 on that list. I would also not forward 3-5 initially, only IF option 2 were disapproved, and as I said, a req for temp authorization until a more formal process can occur makes that a much stronger case. Then you're arguing down the road to keep what you got, but willing to talk about options 3-4 if that's not appropriate. And, I wouldn't heistate to say we're working toward dropping ultramarine completely in the longer term.

mikeylikey

^ It is just amazing that Vanguard can get this issue presented to the AF, but CAP members couldn't for the past 10 years.  Wow.....we all now know who is running CAP, and it starts with a "V" and ends with an "anguard"

It would be economical on everyones part to use the subdued insignia the AF currently uses.  More green bags than blue out there folks, and the ultramarine blue tape is a specialty item and only makes the supplier more money.  BUT, I understand that will never happen, and I am sure no matter what we discuss here the decisions were already made 4 months ago to go with full color on ultramarine blue by both VANGUARD and AF.   

What's up monkeys?

DNall

Vanguard isn't getting it put to AF, CAP NHQ is. The issue of sewn on grade has been proposed multiple times to AF for approval over the past 10 years - at least 2-3 times.

Sewed on subdued is absolutely not happening, and even proposing it makes all options less likely to be approved.

Ultramarine is a specialty color, versus OD, but the shear nature of the item keeps it inexpensive. It's more that we're trying to move away from the color longer-term & putting it on an additional uniform is a step backward that makes that process harder.

afgeo4

So as a compromise, do we all agree that full color on navy blue background is the best way to go (aesthetically and financially)?

That would also be another step to changing ALL insignia to that color scheme which would in turn make the insignia easier to procure and less expensive to the membership. Also makes it easier for members to understand which insignia to wear and creates less "out of uniform" issues.

So... how do we make this happen? Can we petition/lobby Vanguard or NHQ?
GEORGE LURYE

Hawk200

Quote from: afgeo4 on March 26, 2008, 03:03:41 AM
So as a compromise, do we all agree that full color on navy blue background is the best way to go (aesthetically and financially)?

Now that I think about it, I have to say "Why not?". It would be far easier, same thing across the board, no confusion. It would also be distinctive. Might look a little funny at first, but we would all get used to it. And you can't get real confused about what goes on which uniform when there is only one thing to choose from.

Now, if we could ditch everything but navy blue for every uniform, we'd be good.

cnitas

Why not? 
Because blue on a sage green flight bag looks strange, out of place, and is not in line with our parent service.

Has anyone setup a test to see what you are arguing for? 

Mark A. Piersall, Lt Col, CAP
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

DNall

Sorry, but I'm not in favor of blue backgrounds on green uniforms.

Plastic encased is expensive & hard to work with, but it looks okay, if outdated quite a bit. Color on OD/sage would present the same basic appearance with an updated cleaner look, and is aesthetically pleasing. That has to be the first choice. Subdued shouldn't even be considered. Just mentioning that to AF terms this whole request in the absolute wrong way.

If they deny that then sure we can talk about dark blue before we get to the bottom of the barrel ultramarine. But I wouldn't go in swinging with those.

If you could get ALL uniform combinations in one background color, that'd be easier for Vanguard & brand new members to avoid screwing up, but it still wouldn't look good. Plus, then you're talking about everyone changing BDUs completely for a very small gain, and then maybe changing again when you go to ABUs, or worse setting yourself up for dark blue on ABUs. That's not good options.

No, I think the best way to go with this is an emergency interim (12mo) authorization for off-the-shelf color on OD background until either another supplier cna be found to provide plastic encased at reasonable price and adequate supply chain, or AF can determine if they want to stick with the sewn on. Getting something like that adopted should not be an issue. Remember, you don't have to win the war all at once, you take a little ground & hold it, then you take a little more later on.

DrJbdm

This is a little off topic, but MikeyLikey's favorite insignia supplier; the one that starts with a V and ends with anguard has personally told me on several occasions that they are trying to push CAP away from Ultramarine blue because it is getting difficult for them to get the material. Now I suspect they have enough material to last a couple more years or so but it is running out rather quickly.

  I suspect within the next five years we will no longer have ultramarine blue tapes or insignias.  If CAP gets their act together and raises the bar substantially just maybe AF will see to move CAP a bit closer to them in terms of uniform appearance. CAP has to do the major changing towards AF standards, AF will not move away from their position.