Please get rid of the plastic encased ranks

Started by piperl4, March 09, 2008, 06:24:24 PM

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piperl4

Please oh Please convince the CAP to abandon the plastic encased rank. It was abandoned by the Military years ago as it was just a pain in the butt. Washing is pain putting them on is a pain and they turn green almost overnight. Why does the CAP stick with them. The Cold War is over leave the past behind.

arajca

They may be going away, but not because of anything CAP does. Vanguard, according to what the rep at the NB said, can't find a good supplier.

Eclipse

I mostly agree, but have never seen one that is green.

If they are too much trouble just get a blue flightsuit. They look better, anyway.

"That Others May Zoom"

piperl4

Eclipse, you have a great point and I indeed did purchase one. However I have asked the question and it appears you may know the answer. Where does it have the reg that you can wear the embroardered rank on it and for the dark blue is it the dark blue rank?. I have seen it mentioned in places but like some of the regs hard to read for sure. I like the blue much better and you can get them on Ebay much cheaper than Vanguard and they are really nice. We fly out of Dover AFB so its nice to wear the blue and there is no chance of confusion with the Military who fly. I was proud to be a ex TSgt in the USAF with 2 tours in VN but still have a problem wearing a military uniform with Captians bars. May be stupid but just does not feel right. We fly every day out of the base and upon entry to the Base get saluted many times. The blue suit avoids that confusion.
So hope you can point us all in the right direction on the proper rank type for the Navy blue flight suit.
Thanks

mikeylikey

Quote from: piperl4 on March 09, 2008, 07:01:56 PM
I was proud to be a ex TSgt in the USAF with 2 tours in VN but still have a problem wearing a military uniform with Captians bars. May be stupid but just does not feel right. We fly every day out of the base and upon entry to the Base get saluted many times. The blue suit avoids that confusion.

First, thank you for your service.  Second, you are right, your comment about rank and getting saluted is stupid.  We are Civil Air Patrol.  Our Uniforms may be a variant of the AF's, but they are fundamentally a Civil Air Patrol Uniform.  If you have a concern about wearing your Captain Rank Insignia, the quick fix would be to stop wearing it. 

If you have trouble returning a salute, then I fear your time in the Service did not teach you anything.  Being saluted is a courtesy the gate guard is throwing your way because he or she believes you to be an Officer.  They don't have to do it, as they are smart enough to know you are in the Civil Air Patrol.  I hope you returned it.  There are many that would rather argue with the Airman and make a point of saying "oh don't ever salute me or CAP members, you don't have to"  That only makes the Airman feel stupid and makes you look like a jerk.  (Note, not you, I used "you" to reference others, as I have no idea what you did in that situation.

I am going to make a leap of judgement here and say you are in the membership category that would rather get rid of everything military about CAP?

Now, I mean no offense to you, as you have not posted enough for me to make a real judgement but based on your post above, it matches others in the "no military aspect of CAP" membership group. 

If I am wrong, let me know, but it sure seems that way to me.
What's up monkeys?

arajca

Quote from: piperl4 on March 09, 2008, 07:01:56 PM
I was proud to be a ex TSgt in the USAF with 2 tours in VN but still have a problem wearing a military uniform with Captians bars. May be stupid but just does not feel right.

There's a solution for this - resign you captaincy and become a NCO. As a former TSgt, you qualify to be a CAP NCO. Then the issue of returning salutes goes away. You just have to initiate them. OR you could just say the heck with all grade and remain a SMWOG.

But I digress. Give it about three months before worrying about plastic encase grade insignia. The Vanguard rep said it would take about that to see if they can reliably get plastic encased grade insignia.

afgeo4

Quote from: arajca on March 09, 2008, 07:28:02 PM
Quote from: piperl4 on March 09, 2008, 07:01:56 PM
I was proud to be a ex TSgt in the USAF with 2 tours in VN but still have a problem wearing a military uniform with Captians bars. May be stupid but just does not feel right.

There's a solution for this - resign you captaincy and become a NCO. As a former TSgt, you qualify to be a CAP NCO. Then the issue of returning salutes goes away. You just have to initiate them. OR you could just say the heck with all grade and remain a SMWOG.

But I digress. Give it about three months before worrying about plastic encase grade insignia. The Vanguard rep said it would take about that to see if they can reliably get plastic encased grade insignia.
I agree... if you want to stay a TSgt... (no reason why you shouldn't), just change in to an NCO and put on your TSgt chevrons. Then you can wear your green bag without issues.

By the way, they salute the grade insignia (rank), not the color of the flightsuit, so you wearing a blue one probably won't change it. Most people will just assume you're a USCG Lieutenant.
GEORGE LURYE

piperl4

With the respect I am sure you are due, you have misjudged the statements completely. Of course I would always return the salute as it is always an honor to be saluted. However I do not propose the CAP do away with all that is military at all. We are in a unique position to be on a USAF installation so things here become easly confused. When at a conference or other Wing type function I am proud to wear the AF style uniform and I do wear CAP and the combat ribbons I did earn, We all paid dear to wear them. I will never feel we are anything but a important part of the USAF and should act as such, we just have a much differant mission.
However every day we are around young men both officer and enlisted who are going or comming from Iraq or other places of conflict. It is us that should be saluting them not the other way around only because of confusion. Beleive me many do get confused.
I only have rank on the flight suit because at a SAR practice a short time ago I did not wear rank on my flight suit as I never have. I was in not so polite of terms reamed for not having them on by a person of rank who had never served in or near the Military. I still have respect for his rank because he wears it and is in fact a Commander, however I will never confuse the two.
Please do not interpit anything here to mean any disrespect toward's any person of any rank in the CAP it is only a personal opinion, that some may feel is right and others may feel is wrong.

piperl4

afgeo4
Got to admit you put a bullet in me with the USCG one. Score 10 points on that one as I never would have thought of that and we have 2 USCG stations within 50 miles of us. I guess that is pretty valid. However being around the CAP for a short while (my first Form 5 check ride was Sept 1975) one thing I did learn is if you intend to move up and do certain jobs, and I will be honest I do wish to do certain things in the CAP that include upward mobility you will never do it as a TSgt. That is just reality. Staying a MP it is fine however today we have some very unique missions and a whole new structure in the NIMS and ICS world and in my Civilian job am very involved in that world. So I am guilty of wanting to now participate at a higher level. I was in the Army as a Spec 4 and the USAF as a Tsgt and they were great ranks to be but in the CAP it just does not work the same.
However your point is well taken and respected.

As for Vanguard well yes they are having a great bit of difficulty to say the least finding a supplier. They have not had Captain bars for a very long long time and don't think they will anytime soon.

Eclipse

To answer the actual >QUESTION< it is contained in one of the many ICL's floating around.

The ICL consolidation letter sent by the iCC contains what you need:

Quote from: iCC's Changes to 39-1 Letter, dated 25 January 2008
(3) CAP Distinctive Flight suit. Effective 15 March 2006, a dark blue
NOMEX flight suit was approved for wear by CAP members. This item will be worn with
the same badges and devices as the currently authorized CAP distinctive ultramarine
blue flight suit. The ultramarine blue flight suit will be phased out 1 March 2009.

(4) Embroidered grade insignia on flight suits. Effective 15 March
2006, embroidered grade insignia, as well as the currently authorized plastic encased
insignia, is authorized on the CAP distinctive flight suits. If embroidered grade is worn,
ultramarine blue grade insignia will be worn on the ultramarine blue NOMEX flight suit
and dark blue grade insignia will be worn on the dark blue utility uniform and new
NOMEX flight suit
.

Link: http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2008_01_25_Uniforms.pdf

"That Others May Zoom"

mikeylikey

^ Back to the original statement, I also agree plastic encased rank insignia should be eliminated.  This was one of the many uniform issues (that should have been) could have been worked out at the recent boards.  Instead we get a silly "eliminate grey braid and give us blue to distinguish us from the AF" proposal.  In reality the person heading up the uniform committee at NHQ should resign his position for allowing that issue with the reasoning used to even be written down.
Man......they really had a chance to fix the uniform issues CAP wide, but instead discussed stupid issues like approving Boonie hats that have been denied by USAF for the past 10 years.

Am I off key here?  Was anyone else a little ticked off?
What's up monkeys?

JayT

Can someone explain to me how some of you really hard corp military guys can get off saying "I take it you want to get rid of all things military in CAP?"

There's such thing as balance and compromise, and frankly, that line of bull is pathetic and insulting towards the bulk of CAP members.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

mikeylikey

^Sadly, there are those that would prefer nothing "military-esque" in CAP.  However our organizations history and mere operating method dictates we use some of the military establishments methods and ways. 

What's up monkeys?

slowpilotdude

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 09, 2008, 08:47:36 PM
Am I off key here?  Was anyone else a little ticked off?

I was! Especially after there was a 57+ page post dedicated to well thought out uniform suggestions...
Kyle J. Velasquez, 1st Lt, CAP
IT Officer / Webmaster
NCR-KS-092

<img src="http://a539.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/72/m_43cab10cbb9936ea51d7ca85dfd2e95a.gif"  border="0">

Intendum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum.

RiverAux

QuoteOR you could just say the heck with all grade and remain a SMWOG.
That doesn't get you out of anything as far as customs and courtesy's go. 

Eagle400

You know, it's been a long time since I've posted here.  I've gone through some life changes and have learned that it is indeed possible to speak your mind on an internet forum without making people mad.  You just have to be very careful what you say. 

With that in mind, what I am about to say is in no way designed to irritate or annoy. 

I believe that it is entirely possible for CAP to be a corporation in charter but a military auxiliary in atmosphere.  It's not that I don't care for the corporation, it's just that I don't care for the attitude that because CAP is a corporation in charter, it must also be a corporation in atmosphere. 

CAP can be a corporation without everyone wearing grey slacks and polo shirts and addressing each other by their first name.  It can also be a corporation without having "corporate uniforms" or phrases such as "you must protect the corporation." 

I have discovered that so much of this "corporate mindset" is because of legal reasons; the corporation is what protects CAP from lawsuits.  I understand that.  However, that doesn't mean that people have to take all the military traditions and customs of CAP and chuck them out the window. 

In the end, all the "corporate mindset" does is confuse the cadets and eat away at CAP's heritage and traditions.  It is a military auxiliary, even if it isin't as close to its parent organization as the Coast Guard Auxiliary is.  To that end, it should be treated like the auxiliary of the USAF and not just another corporation.

Here's an illustration I just came up with.   A suit is another piece of clothing in the closet; a uniform is something more.  When a corporate employee puts his suit on and goes to work, it's another day at work and he represents only the corporation.  However, when a CAP member puts his uniform on and goes to a meeting, he is serving his community, state and nation and he is representing both the CAP and the USAF.

I wonder how many people know that distinction?   I have never served a day in the military and I know the difference.  Maybe it's my cadet training, I don't know.

But I think the "corporate mindset" has a lot to do with people thinking that the uniform is just another piece of clothing and that service in CAP is just another volunteer activity.  Many of these people see CAP as just another corporation and forget that it is a military auxiliary with customs and traditions similar to those of the Air Force. 

Please don't get me wrong... I'm not saying CAP should get rid of the corporation altogether... but I do think the attitude that CAP should be like a corporation in every way should be done away with.  It was never designed to have the atmosphere of a corporation, so why make it into something it was never designed to be?   
 

jb512

To the original poster, I and many others here agree with you about out of date uniform items.

It's been hashed out time and time again in this forum about leather name tags, plastic rank, smurf blue nametapes, etc...

I know that we tend to focus a lot on uniforms, but if I could change one thing about this organization it would be to allow us to keep up with the changes the AF makes.  Our mandatory wear dates could be extended, but at least allow the members to wear up-to-date uniforms if they choose.

Major Carrales

Quote from: CCSE on March 09, 2008, 11:51:26 PM
Here's an illustration I just came up with.   A suit is another piece of clothing in the closet; a uniform is something more.  When a corporate employee puts his suit on and goes to work, it's another day at work and he represents only the corporation.  However, when a CAP member puts his uniform on and goes to a meeting, he is serving his community, state and nation and he is representing both the CAP and the USAF.

That is the finest wording on this matter I have read here to date. 

As a Squadron Commander of a composite squadron I have the opportunity to deal with cadets on a personal level.  I know the cadet oath...some CAP Officers find it "hokey" and "campy."   Maybe that is a product of the times, too cynical...no idealism and optimism left.   

I believe in what the cadet oath entails and I believe it needs to be more than a phrase to begin a meeting.  That should be our default..."service to our community, State and Nation."

Definately more than a mere "suit" or "costume."
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

jb512

Quote from: Major Carrales on March 10, 2008, 01:09:54 AM
Quote from: CCSE on March 09, 2008, 11:51:26 PM
Here's an illustration I just came up with.   A suit is another piece of clothing in the closet; a uniform is something more.  When a corporate employee puts his suit on and goes to work, it's another day at work and he represents only the corporation.  However, when a CAP member puts his uniform on and goes to a meeting, he is serving his community, state and nation and he is representing both the CAP and the USAF.

That is the finest wording on this matter I have read here to date. 

As a Squadron Commander of a composite squadron I have the opportunity to deal with cadets on a personal level.  I know the cadet oath...some CAP Officers find it "hokey" and "campy."   Maybe that is a product of the times, too cynical...no idealism and optimism left.   

I believe in what the cadet oath entails and I believe it needs to be more than a phrase to begin a meeting.  That should be our default..."service to our community, State and Nation."

Definately more than a mere "suit" or "costume."

And I've noticed that SMs who are former cadets are more apt to wear the BDUs or blues than the polos and corporates.  I think those cadet days have a lot to do with that because of the pride and comfort in that uniform that was developed back then.

In my experience, new members who are not military or former cadets of some kind very rarely wear anything other than a polo and/or a flight suit.  Some who deal directly with cadets will wear the white/grays.  Every one of us in our squadron who are former cadets almost always wear AF uniforms.

JohnKachenmeister

Another former CAP officer