How tough is tough?

[stratoflyer]

I think I'm about to open a can of worms here but I really hope to hear some sound opinions on this one.

How tough can cadets be? I'm talking in terms of strictness and military bearing and all that stuff. Maybe a case scenario would help here...

There's this squadron (let's call it Squadron Soft) that has a cadet staff that is unmotivated. They feel they have their hands tied by the seniors who cite the Cadet Protection Policy way too much. For example, cadet cadre cannot be heard raising their voices at a flight; having a flight stand at attention for more than a minute is excessive; cadets are not allowed to perform much physical activity, even when in BDU's.

When a cadet walks by a senior member or cadet officer and doesn't salute, nothing is said.

We are all aware of hazing, but based on other postings, hazing is still something that is debated and handled differently among squadrons. One cadet at a squadron once told me that she thought it becomes hazing when the cadet himself feels that it is hazing--for example, if the cadet wants to do pushups for discipline, than he can volunteer pushups.

In short, I think that a lot of seniors are just too afraid about the protection policy and is compounded by over-protective parents. Yet I've seen some squadrons handle their meetings as if they were 3 hour encampments.

[stratoflyer]

Check out the discussion that took place in this topic:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=5404.0

This is a subject that is very dear and imperative to many folks out there.

[Duke Dillio]

A friend of mine used to recite his favorite saying:

"There is a fine line between being hard and being stupid."

The goal of CAP is to develop future leaders from America's youth.  Many people, in and out of CAP, have different opinions on conduct in regards to developing youth.  For example, a lot of the "bleeding heart liberals" will tell you that it is never okay to spank a child.  Others believe that you should "spank them early and spank them often."  Everyone has a different opinion on how to raise kids and develop leaders and citizens out of them.

I personally don't have any problem with cadets doing pushups or other physical activities, within reason.  The problem is that there is a always a small group that goes overboard, then the lawyers get involved, and voila the regs change to stop it from happening again.  This is not inherent to CAP.  It happens in governments at all levels.  The only thing you can really do is follow the regs as written and use a little bit of common sense.

[lordmonar]

My cadets are not unmotivated...they follow the customs and courtesies.  They salute me...even when they don't have to.

And I don't have to yell, and threaten push ups, or make them stand at attention for too long.

Discipline is not instilled by yelling, and push ups.  YMMV

[JoeTomasone]

Just check out the various boot camps for the military - most have changed dramatically due to concerns about being too hard on the recruits.   The Marine Corps is a great example.   If a recruit feels that he's been harassed, threatened, demeaned, etc, he reports it and the DI in question is immediately relieved pending an investigation. 

[SM-MADDOG]

I think that CAP should let the program be a little tougher than what it is, but when your deaing with Cadets young in age to 18 you cant do much with them. Say you have a cadet that is 12 or 13 and if we were real tough for dislipline you ride them hard then they quit. I think if the proper policy is followed you can still take care of dislipline areas. But the Cadet Protection Policy amoung other reg's say Seniors and Cadet Officers or supervisors cant do certain things. Me being a Senior im not going to violate it lol. Im a new Cadet Program Officer and am learning more everyday about the cadet program.

[stratoflyer]

Part of it is what I've seen in other posts: there are just too many cadets that are too young. 15 is young but heck 12? How about a difference in regular cadets (15 and up) and junior cadets (12 - 15).

The boy scouts have cub scouts. How about we have junior cadets?

[IceNine]

^ the cub cadets (pun intended) are in the experimental stages right now, but it will be IIRC like 6 and up

As for the Cadet Protection Policy, this document is a tool to help keep us in check and protect our cadets.  It is not, and never was intended to dumb down leadership or halt tough love leadership.

If you wouldn't do it to an employee at work, don't do it to our cadets.  There is no reason you cannot correct them, or call their bluff, or let them drill for a couple hours, or do PT on a Red flag day.

The problem is not the Cadet Protection Policy, its the interpretation that too many have taken.  Again this doc is just a guide, not a Training Timeout card for out cadets.

[Dad2-4]

Part of it is what I've seen in other posts: there are just too many cadets that are too young. 15 is young but heck 12? How about a difference in regular cadets (15 and up) and junior cadets (12 - 15).

The boy scouts have cub scouts. How about we have junior cadets?

Jr Cadets are part of an elementary school program being tested right now. Very successful from what I gather. http://www.cap.gov/visitors/news/cap_news_online/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&nodeID=6192&newsID=3622&year=2007&month=10
12 years old is not a "junior cadet", but a full fledged, card carrying, achievement earning "regular cadet." I have a new middle school based unit and these 12+ year old members are just as motivated and hard working as any older cadet I've seen. While they have moments of high spiritedness and need to settled down, so do older cadets. It's just a different type of high spirited activity.
If you wait until kids are 15 to begin recruiting them, you're passing up a lot of good potential, and competing against a lot of other activities.

[Stonewall]

If a recruit feels that he's been harassed, threatened, demeaned, etc, he reports it and the DI in question is immediately relieved pending an investigation. 

Let me guess, you heard someone else say this.  This crap is not true.  Probably not a day, maybe an hour, that goes by, that recruits are not "harassed, threatened or demeaned" by the pure definition of those words.  While AF recruits may be going to Burger King in their 3rd week (saw it with my own two eyes 3 weeks ago) you can sure bet that their TIs are giving them push-ups, threatening the same, and otherwise harassing them.  Again, I saw it with my own two eyes while working with AF BMT recruits in July over on the Medina Annex of Lackland AFB.

I've got a friend who is a drill sergeant at Ft. Benning, again, you can sure bet that only in extreme cases, like someone getting physically beaten, that a drill sergeant is relieved pending an investigation. 

No matter what, whether it be in CAP or the military, one generation will always say the generations of today "have it easy" or the service as a whole is "soft".  I say it myself, more so in CAP than in the military, but it is to be expected.

I speak of my time as a cadet of the 80s and cadets of today are in awe of what we did.  If you'd like, I can show pictures of us firing .50 cals, rappelling, doing "water ops" and putting on our special "Recondo" program...totally on our own, mostly without senior member supervision.  If you ask me, it's the cadets who are different.  Take orientation flights as an example.  I can barely get cadets to fly in a 2006 C-182 Glass Cockpit for free without begging, bribing or basically picking them up at their doorstep.  As a cadet I didn't care for flying, but I also took every single opportunity to do something, anything, in CAP.  So yeah, I flew my little butt off, more than the 6 alloted O-rides.

Hell, my buddy and I, at age 15, managed to get ourselves on the Golden Knights' aircraft during TWO SEPARATE AIRSHOWS as "ride alongs".  Even got our squadron commander to sign off that we were the squadron Public Information Officers....which, for those two days, we were.  Night time call-outs, multi-day missions, real and training, 6 hour road trips to visit other squadrons, fly in simulators, get military orientation flights...yeah, I'd say the program of today is rather wimpy and lacks a set of brass balls nuggets.  Ever have a 17 year old cadet plan, manage, execute and lead 20 cadets through a 3 day survival exercise on a mountain without any help from seniors other than supervision during the actual activity?  Yeah, that was in 1999, less than 10 years ago.  He is now a Captain (Ranger) in the Army.  Not just talking the talk, got pictures from pretty much every "tough" activity we ever did.  And yes, I've done lots of push-ups and have given lots of push-ups, but not for a long long time since they've been frowned upon.

Push-ups is a stupid issue.  Are they necessary?  No.  Can they be effective?  Yes, for some cases.  They are not to be used as actual (real) punishment, but yeah, it ain't rocket science, but still, some people, mostly senior cadets and goofy senior members that saw Full Metal Jacket too many times can't comprehend how to use things like push-ups.  And for that, it is just better that they not be allowed at all in CAP.  While I may be able to "drop" a group of cadets in the field during an FTX for not "dummy cording" their gear (after losing a flashlight), you'll find some 350 lbs senior member in spandex BBDUs "smoking" the crap out of a group of cadets until their hands bleed, all the while he's eating a donut and bragging to his buddy sitting in the station wagon with all the lights and sirens about how hardcorps he is.

[BillB]

In February, there was a reunion of former Florida Wing cadets from the 1940's up to 1990. Many of the attendees were still active CAP members. The conversation went back to how different todays cadet program is compared to the 60's and even up to the 90's. As Stonewall says, the cadets are also different. Schedule O-rides and see how many cadets DON'T show up.
But in many cases it's a matter of CAP doesn't even know it's own history. Four years ago, an all-female color guard won National Color Guard Competition. National did a news release that it was the first female team to win a National Competition. National was wrong. In 1964, the Miami All-Girls Squadron won National Drill Competition. At the reunion many of the former "MAGS" heard about the news release and as one woman commented, "another National screwup".
The cadet program in the 50's through mid 60's was different from the mid 60's to 90's which was very much different again. So you can say there have been four different cadet programs. The 1942 to 47, the period of WW II where cadets were mainly on a path to the USAAF. The 50's through mid 60's when the Squadron Commander ran the cadet program including promotions and demotions (without achievements). The mid 60's through the 1990's when there was USAF support, airlift, encampments etc. with more senior control of the program.  And lastly the 90's to today when the corporation developed more authority and CPPT was established.
Much of the blame for CPPT "dumbing" the cadet program isn't valid, in that many of the problems are based on Commanders, at all levels reading of the Regulation. To often they prohibit something that they think might embarrass the cadet. On the Corporate level, an activity is "dumbed" to protect the corporation from lawsuits. But in general the reunion atendees (which included two former Wing Commanders) agreed that the old program was more fun for cadets than the current program.

[stratoflyer]

The last 2 comments are very insightful. They speak of a long time ago, but I was a cadet up until 3 years ago and I feel like the cadets' world has changed. True, and I agree, unit commanders have a lot to do with it. But I do have to say it is up to the cadets themselves. Cadets turning down o-rides in my book is heretical. But, asking kids to get up in the morning on a Saturday or asking them to go play outside to many parents is also heretical. I've met parents that have said things like kids have it tough these days. They speak academically with all the competition for college and all. But I say kids fainting outside the campus bookstore because they never played outside is something that needs to be addressed. 

Remember CAP helps develop better citizens for America? Well, I can see that the future is being filled more and more with whiners, complainers, and people that just weasel around. We need to address our youth, and CAP is an outstanding way to do so. But these kids need to be encouraged and find motivation within. And it starts by examples: seniors have a lot to do with it.

[Eclipse]

The world has changed, including the military.

Less, less, less, all the way around.  How many bases have closed since the mid-80's?

Less bases means less people with paramilitary leadership experience to guide the programs, which in turns means more straight-out civilians trying their best to mixed results.

Less bases means less access to military "toys" and resources and less access to behavioral examples.

How many major cities no longer have a military presence of any kind?
(Guard bases and reserve centers don't really "count", as many of them hide in commercial areas and you can't tell them from every other business.  I'm talking about "real" bases that have a visceral impact on the economy and attitudes.  Chicago, for example, used to have several armories in the city limits, a large USAF and ANG presence at O'Hare, and several large bases in the vicinity including Fort Sheridan, Glenview NAS, Rantoul, Chanute, and Joliet, not to mention the Nike bases all over the place.  Now, if it weren't for Great Lakes, and the small Guard base at Midway, people in Chicago would rarely see a uniform at all.)

How many services went though a phase of "professionalization" to attract a higher caliber of recruit?

While overtly there may be a high-level of "support the troops", in a lot of places its actually "support somebody else doing the dirty jobs".

There is no longer a national expectation of service, and largely families "cocoon" into their own worlds and don't even know their next door neighbors.

There is also a lot more vying for kids' attention these days.

When I was cadet age there were about 15 TV stations, and most of the networks could care less about my demographic.

Summer meant running out the front door of my house and not coming back until dinner time.  Today its XBox time and texting, unless you Tivo'ed something good or need to update FaceSpace.

Most park district & school coaches think they are building professional teams and require nearly year-round commitment, with little sympathy for excuses like "serving their country in uniform" ("either he practices or he's benched, I don't care if it >is< Memorial Day and school's closed...").

Yes, a lot has changed.

[stratoflyer]

Grim and true...

[arajca]

WIWAC (early 80's), we marched EVERYWHERE at encampment. Usually six - seven miles a day. And we called jodies every time. A couple years ago, when I was safety officer for an encampment, the senior staff was trying to figure out how to transport the cadets to the meal facility using vans since the usual facility was closed for remodelling. The new facility was about 1/4 mile away. WTF! I made the recommendation that the cadets MARCH to meals. You'd swear I suggested they simulate the Bataan Death March from the reaction from some seniors. Fortunately, the commander decided I had the right idea and the cadets marched to and from meals. The usual facility was about 100' from the dorms.

[CASH172]

I'll try and give a more younger view at this.  Today's average teenager has a lot to worry about.  The most important thing that most think of and their parents as well, is college.  It seems everything in the world revolves around getting that college application to look perfect for when its sent in.  Parents view getting a varied mix of extracurricular activities will do the job, on top of good grades and such.  Everything is so structured for teenagers.  One day's track practice, next is CAP, then Debate, then theater, it just doesn't leave a teenager time to devote to CAP outside of his/her regular time. 

CAP is a what each cadet makes of it.  Some only show up regularly to meetings and barely participate outside of the squadron.  To most college admissions officers, they don't see much beyond the words "Civil Air Patrol" in the college application.  They see  the student has participated and weigh that all the same.  Problem is, some cadet could've reached C/A1C while another one is a C/Capt, and many colleges wouldn't know the difference.  I think it's one problem today, that the general knowledge of CAP and its role is not widespread.

Many parents and cadets know this too and will just simply show up to the point where it can be written in a resume.  They don't get involved beyond that, but the whole cadet experience involves getting outside and doing advanced activities.  In this, they never develop all the advanced leadership skills and traits that CAP is meant to teach. 

In terms of CPP and the corporatizing of CAP, I never experienced what everyone calls the good ol' days, so I can't say which is better or worse.  I will say from what I'm reading that it sounded like a much more interesting program to be in.  Unfortunately, the times change.  The military changes, teenagers change, the world changes, and CAP just has to adjust. 

[AlphaSigOU]

WIWAC (late 70s - mid 80s for me)...

Rappelling off a 250' cliff, 200 of which was in midair, with only a fellow cadet on belay. (I was too young at the time to go down the 750' cliff.)

Corrupting our young, impressionable cadink minds with salty language and even saltier jody calls/cadences.

Pushing down the surface of the earth several inches courtesy of many, many pushups.

FTXs complete with bottle rocket battles. (That stopped when someone got injured.)

Much closer cooperation with the Air Force... almost every squadron or group had a AF Reserve CAP liaison just a phone call away, and nine times out of ten we'd get an o-ride or surplus uniforms with no problem.

But that was back in the days when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was a cadink. Even though I am proud to have been a 'dink in those days, today I rarely interact with cadets, not because it isn't the same program I experienced when I was their ages but it's gone in a totally different direction. To many it's just an activity you can check off for your kid's college application.

[Eclipse]

(That stopped when someone got injured.)

A lot of what comprises the known universe today falls into or was defined by that statement.

[stratoflyer]

Yeah, that's what I was pointing at. The whole thing about filling out a resume. That attitude stinks, because what suffers is quality. Like many have said, these kids show up and do the minimum, and miss out on a great opportunity. Parents have a big say in that of course.

Personal experience: all that resume building went to hell when I had to stay home and take care of my family. And IMHO, I'm a better person today because of what I learned during these past few arduous years. Some of these college graduates have no idea what the real world is like: I see it happen around me all the time. Not that I'm some ol' fart with eons of experience, but real world livin' is something a resume aint never gonna reflect fully. Some of the best mentors I've ever had didn't even finish college until later in life and were toughened up because they had to fight for their education.

I guess what I'm saying is this: the more you want something, and the more you have to battle for it, the more it's going to mean something to you, and the more  it will help you. I think that is what's missing: kids just don't appreciate things like they should.

Example: talk to a kid about the first American in space: ask him how brave that guy really was to be strapped to a converted war weapon and shot into a void in a little tiny capsule. See what kind of response you get.

[Michael]

In my leadership experiences, I've learned that a modest amount of toughness and yelling is good and healthy. 

When I was yelled at when I was an in-flight, the toughness of my leaders pressured me. It made me move and act better. It made me a better cadet.

But when it gets anal, it needs to stop, and leaders need to start looking at what their goals really are, and what good things are already happening.

In addition, all forms of loud "calling out" should be done at the whole flight, never at one person.  That I've also found is very bad.

[CAP006]

In my leadership experiences, I've learned that a modest amount of toughness and yelling is good and healthy. 

When I was yelled at when I was an in-flight, the toughness of my leaders pressured me. It made me move and act better. It made me a better cadet.

But when it gets anal, it needs to stop, and leaders need to start looking at what their goals are, and what good things are already happening.

In addition, all forms of loud "calling out" should be done at the whole flight, never at one person.  That I've also found is very bad.

I agree.  There are times when being loud is necessary but you also need to know when enough is enough.

[Rotorhead]

I'll try and give a more younger view at this.  Today's average teenager has a lot to worry about.  The most important thing that most think of and their parents as well, is college.  It seems everything in the world revolves around getting that college application to look perfect for when its sent in.  Parents view getting a varied mix of extracurricular activities will do the job, on top of good grades and such.  Everything is so structured for teenagers.  One day's track practice, next is CAP, then Debate, then theater, it just doesn't leave a teenager time to devote to CAP outside of his/her regular time. 

I experienced exactly this 25 years ago. Thiings haven't changed at all, in this regard.

[Eebdog]

I seriously hope we're talking about training activities such as encampment or weekend pre-enc training, not the typical squadron meeting (with the exception of squadrons that run some sort of basic cadet training cycle). Shocking as it may sound, you'll lose more prospects than you'll gain by yelling (unless it's jodies or motivational).

Encampment's over. Time to chillax a bit.

[jeders]

Encampment's over. Time to chillax a bit.

Unfortunately, people get too "chillaxed." When I joined CAP back in the dark days before Pearl Harbor , actually back in '00, I was in a Squadron that wasn't hardcore but still produced generally good cadets. We didn't do pushups, mostly due to CPPT, and unless we screwed up no one was yelling at us. I eventually became the cadet commander and we maintained a decent level of professionalism without going overboard. Then I left town to get my Masters degree. After two years, I came back and rejoined that squadron and became the DCC before I even officially transfered in. I went to my first meeting last Tuesday and was amazed at how relaxed things were. We had cadets show up in incorrect uniforms, I don't mean blues instead of BDUs, I mean a cadet wearing gray a name tag, one rank insignia, and not wearing his flight cap outside. There was no opening formation, everyone just filed into the classroom for ML.

Fortunately, the squadron commander is of the opinion that this is now my cadet program and I'm free to make it tougher as long as I stay within the boundaries of the regulations and common sense. Does this mean that I' m going to start yelling at cadets for not wearing uniforms properly right in front of everyone, no. Does it mean I'm going to start dropping cadets until there arms give out, no. Does it mean that the program will be tougher than before, you better believe it. Because from what I'm seeing, there is no toughness in this squadron.

So back to the original question, how tough is tough? Through my, admittedly limited, time in CAP, I've found that most cadets will respond to the level of toughness that they are faced with by overcoming. Little Johnny may not like to get up at 0500, but if you motivate him, he will. So how tough it too tough, too tough is where your demands far surpass a cadets motivation.

[John Bryan]

This is kind of a side question......I know what the regs say and I obey them 100%...that said, do we really think push ups or PT for displine is child abuse? I mean if that is the case then every middle school wrestling and football coach in America is a child abuser. Heck, I think Pop Warner still makes you run laps or do push ups.....I know there are still middle school and high school gym teachers that do.

Maybe, just maybe we over reacted , kind of like the golf cart thing? I mean PT and the rest can cross into hazing....but rather then train the members Cadet Officers and Seniors alike to know what is healthy and what is hazing we just say thou shall not.

I think we need to start doing a lot more training rather then just saying NOT ALLOWED.  I mean thats what ORM is about.

And not just CP.....heck we need to do large van, vehicle operator training, but instead we just keep issuing policies to remove seats.

Anyway....sorry for my rant

[Ned]

John,

Excellent points.  And ones that those of us in CP take very seriously.

CAP's cadet program has always been a challenging and vigorous military-based leadership program.  And I don't think that is going to change any time soon.

And I agree that we need to spend some more time trying to define the "look and feel" of our CP.  It's an area that has always interested me.

You can see my article on that very subject on CadetStuff here .

A couple of points.  I don't think anyone at NHQ or on the NB thinks that push ups are always abusive per se.  Heck, I was in the Army for over 20 years and I seem to recall that during my Initial Entry Training that the DIs dispensed push ups fairly frequently to get our attention and help us focus on the tasks at hand.   

But we should probably remember that Army DIs and Air Force MTIs are veteran service members who have graduated from a 16 week course and been through a couple of cycles of OJT under the supervision of experience instructors before they are allowed train basic recruits and hand out those push ups.

The typical encampment flight sergeant or commander is more like 16 years old with maybe 20-30 days of CAP "active duty" total.  And the senior member Tactical Officer may not have much more direct experience.

And those professional DIs and MTIs are dealing with 17-25 year olds who are significantly different than the 13-15 year old cadets that we are training at encampments and our home units.

So that's long way of saying that I agree that we need to come up with some doctrine on our "look and feel" where we try to describe our "toughness" levels and provide tools and training so that CP officers from Alaska to Puerto Rico can understand it and safely train our troops.

To start the ball rolling, I am sending an officer to both Lackland and the USAFA to talk to representatives of the Training Wings there about how they go about creating their "look and feel", and to identify and secure existing USAF doctrine on training and stress levels.

The goal is to draft doctrine and training materials relevant to our cadet program.  At this point, we are calling it a draft 52-10 Implementation Guide, but as it develops we may wind up calling it something else.

Thanks for reading this far.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor

[stratoflyer]

Thanks Ned!

[John Bryan]

Ned,

Thanks for the reply and your efforts. I love the USAFA input....since unlike basic training TI's, their cadre is only a couple years older and still leaders in training themselves. While I have no misunderstanding of the large difference between CAP cadets and USAFA cadets, it is at least apples and oranges.....unlike TI's and recruits which compared to CAP cadets are grapes and watermelons.

I for one do not think we need to have a "Push Up for Punishment program".....I just am a little sick of hearing how making a kid do a lap or 10 push ups is child abuse....I don't think it would add anything to our program to have PT as punishment and in fact it might hurt the PFT program we do use......but again, I also don't think it is child abuse.  I would rather see this addressed in the CAPR 52-16 as an issue of how we run our cadet program then in CAPR 52-10 on the same level as physical abuse, sexual abuse and real hazing. 

[jimmydeanno]

I think this could do with our "punishment fitting the crime" avenue.

One could say that someone doing laps or pushups during football practice is getting a punishment that fits the crime.

It might be a strech, but I think an argument could be made in that direction.

[stratoflyer]

I don't look at it as punishment. Real punishment is for something serious. Kind of what Jimmy said. Dropping a cadet for 5 pushups for being late, away from the flight, might be a little something for him to think about (getting sweaty and red in the face for being late is not a good deal)--but it is not punishment per se. Punishment would be suspension from 3 squadron activities for verbal language directed at another member.

At the JROTC, I found that some cadets thought dropping for pushups coupled with a motivational phrase on each count was actually helpful to them.

Just thoughts. I'm not saying that we need pushups in CAP, but merely stating that IMHO, pushups can't really be punishment.

Can CP be tougher at squadrons with the CPPT in place as is? Absolutely!

For example, the Marines will soon be doing Combat Fitness tests. I watched a video on this and thought--hey, we could adapt it for cadets. That would be a cool activity. Then through in a group leadership challenge in there, and now you got a cool activity for a cadet training weekend.

At my squadron, cadets frequently comment that one of their favorite activities are the physically challenging ones.

[Flying Pig]

WHat I liked about physical "punishment" was that when it was over, you knew it was over.  In the Marines, drop your rifle, 20 push ups.  Running to formation 30 seconds late, 50 pushups, maybe some flutter kicks.  CAP.....Late to a meeting, knock out 10, get in formation.

You knew it was done and over with for minor violations.  But of course, we had idiots take it to far and people got hurt.

[SarDragon]

The question I still have is:  When was handing out pushups for punishment ever permitted in CAP? WIWAC, we were always told that it was forbidden, even though some units would ignore it. That included the encampment I attended. I was a cadet from '64 to '69.

[DC]

It would never fly, but come to think of it, push ups could have the effect of encouraging physical fitness? I have always felt that CAP needed to place more emphasis on this to combat the growing (no pun intended) obesity rate in America. Encouraging physical activity is not really a bad idea...

But of course, there are the parents that will flip and the cadets on a power trip that will hurt someone...

Maybe if there was a limit placed, and a requirement for SM supervision...

I really think that most cadets would appreciate it, and would benefit from it a lot more than a teenager's idea of 'counseling' which more often than not is just getting chewed out.. I believe AFJROTC doesn't allow it, but other branches of JROTC do, and it seems to work for them...

[CAP006]

It would never fly, but come to think of it, push ups could have the effect of encouraging physical fitness? I have always felt that CAP needed to place more emphasis on this to combat the growing (no pun intended) obesity rate in America. Encouraging physical activity is not really a bad idea...

But of course, there are the parents that will flip and the cadets on a power trip that will hurt someone...

Maybe if there was a limit placed, and a requirement for SM supervision...

I really think that most cadets would appreciate it, and would benefit from it a lot more than a teenager's idea of 'counseling' which more often than not is just getting chewed out.. I believe AFJROTC doesn't allow it, but other branches of JROTC do, and it seems to work for them...

I agree. I think that if a cadet has been given a warning or two and still doesn't listen then he should be punished in the proper way.  What I do in my squadron is that when doing drill, if cadets are disobeying, have all of them do push-ups together (and me cause I'm F.C) instead of pulling specific ones out.  The cadets will then learn how to be a team and when more then one is messing up, then the rest will pay as well.

Also, I don't make the cadets do more than 20 push-ups or sit-up as a punishment (so to speak) period. And I also alternate between push-ups and sit-ups.

In having to punish a cadet there should be a safety limit now how far is aloud. Dose anyone else agree?

[jimmydeanno]

It would never fly, but come to think of it, push ups could have the effect of encouraging physical fitness? I have always felt that CAP needed to place more emphasis on this to combat the growing (no pun intended) obesity rate in America. Encouraging physical activity is not really a bad idea...

But of course, there are the parents that will flip and the cadets on a power trip that will hurt someone...

Maybe if there was a limit placed, and a requirement for SM supervision...

I really think that most cadets would appreciate it, and would benefit from it a lot more than a teenager's idea of 'counseling' which more often than not is just getting chewed out.. I believe AFJROTC doesn't allow it, but other branches of JROTC do, and it seems to work for them...

I agree. I think that if a cadet has been given a warning or two and still doesn't listen then he should be punished in the proper way.  What I do in my squadron is that when doing drill, if cadets are disobeying, have all of them do push-ups together (and me cause I'm F.C) instead of pulling specific ones out.  The cadets will then learn how to be a team and when more then one is messing up, then the rest will pay as well.

Also, I don't make the cadets do more than 20 push-ups or sit-up as a punishment (so to speak) period. And I also alternate between push-ups and sit-ups.

In having to punish a cadet there should be a safety limit now how far is aloud. Dose anyone else agree?

So you're admittidly violating CAP's policies and directives?

HAZING: Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator. Examples of hazing include using exercise as punishment or assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency (such as making a cadet run laps for having poorly shined shoes).

[CAP006]

It would never fly, but come to think of it, push ups could have the effect of encouraging physical fitness? I have always felt that CAP needed to place more emphasis on this to combat the growing (no pun intended) obesity rate in America. Encouraging physical activity is not really a bad idea...

But of course, there are the parents that will flip and the cadets on a power trip that will hurt someone...

Maybe if there was a limit placed, and a requirement for SM supervision...

I really think that most cadets would appreciate it, and would benefit from it a lot more than a teenager's idea of 'counseling' which more often than not is just getting chewed out.. I believe AFJROTC doesn't allow it, but other branches of JROTC do, and it seems to work for them...

I agree. I think that if a cadet has been given a warning or two and still doesn't listen then he should be punished in the proper way.  What I do in my squadron is that when doing drill, if cadets are disobeying, have all of them do push-ups together (and me cause I'm F.C) instead of pulling specific ones out.  The cadets will then learn how to be a team and when more then one is messing up, then the rest will pay as well.

Also, I don't make the cadets do more than 20 push-ups or sit-up as a punishment (so to speak) period. And I also alternate between push-ups and sit-ups.

In having to punish a cadet there should be a safety limit now how far is aloud. Dose anyone else agree?

So you're admittidly violating CAP's policies and directives?

HAZING: Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator. Examples of hazing include using exercise as punishment or assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency (such as making a cadet run laps for having poorly shined shoes).

NO no no!  I understand why you may think that but I don't do it to abuse or humiliate the cadet. I am very carefull on how its done and I also do it with them so that I feel what they feel and so they don't think as if I'm being mean or cruel.  Thats also what one of my senior members told me to do.

[MIKE]

HAZING: Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator. Examples of hazing include using exercise as punishment or assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency (such as making a cadet run laps for having poorly shined shoes).

Emphasis mine.

[DC]

Push ups are not allowed PERIOD unless it is part of a Physical Training program. They cannot be handed out arbitrarily whether the staff does them or not.

It is ALL considered hazing. I disagree with the reg, but you don't mess around with, or even try to bend the CPP. It is an excellent way to get 2Bed.

As a Cadet Officer the safety iof your cadets is your responsibility, to not know CAPR 52-10 and take other people's (even SMs) word for anything there is just stupid, and will get you in trouble.

[CAP006]

HAZING: Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator. Examples of hazing include using exercise as punishment or assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency (such as making a cadet run laps for having poorly shined shoes).

Emphasis mine.

OK. I understand but if I can't use exercise as a form of punishment then what should I do cause it works great in my squadron?
I don't what to sound rude or bossy but I would like to know an alternative.  

[davidsinn]

HAZING: Hazing is defined as any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful. Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate the culpability of the perpetrator. Examples of hazing include using exercise as punishment or assigning remedial training that does not fit the deficiency (such as making a cadet run laps for having poorly shined shoes).

Emphasis mine.

OK. I understand but if I can't use exercise as a form of punishment then what should I do cause it works great in my squadron?
I don't what to sound rude or bossy but I would like to know an alternative. 

There isn't one and therein lies the problem. Writing them up is too harsh for piddly little things like screwing around in drill.

[DC]

Inform them of what they did wrong. If they make a habit of it counsel them. Take further action if needed.

CPP says that the punishment should be related to the offense, so be creative. But remember that it cannot be demeaning, so if they fail to salute you you cannot make them salute a trash can repeatedly in public... Just be creative.

[MIKE]

Be careful with the creativity.

[stratoflyer]

If a whole flight is messing around, is it a violation of the CPPT to engage in some impromptu physical fitness by doing some push-ups? Note: not punishment, but just physical fitness for the whole flight.

Lord knows a little physical activity can bring focus to the mind. Case in point: It is considered a good thing to get up and walk to the back of a room and remain standing during a presentation if the person is falling asleep. I've done it and it helps me stay awake during classes.

[MIKE]

If a whole flight is messing around, is it a violation of the CPPT to engage in some impromptu physical fitness by doing some push-ups? Note: not punishment, but just physical fitness for the whole flight.

Heck yes it is.  Look at what you just said.

[CAP006]

If a whole flight is messing around, is it a violation of the CPPT to engage in some impromptu physical fitness by doing some push-ups? Note: not punishment, but just physical fitness for the whole flight.

Ok  honestly, I think that if the whole squadron is messing around and wont listen to anything you say, I think that push-ups are necessary but I understand what you guys are saying. Thanks for all your ideas and regs.

[FW]

Wow, excellent discussion.

Even though I haven't been directly involved with cadets since the '80s, I've been fortunate to have observed hundreds, if not thousands, of cadets over the last couple of decades.  What's good to know is our cadets are still becoming, for the most part, successful adults.  We still  help produce astronauts, blue angels, thunderbirds, Rhodes scholars and professionals in all fields.  Our cadets still are ready to assist in SAR/DR.  Older cadets still mentor younger ones.  Our NCSAs are full and encampments seem to fill up every year.  

Yes, there are many differences in how "we" were treated as cadets "way back when" however, IMHO, so what?  Methods are modified/improved with time and experience.  The hard part is keeping up with the times and keeping the program relevant.

If the "whole flight" is messing around, the problem is with the program, not the flight.  I would be messing around too if all I did was drill every meeting.  Back when I was a sq/cc, I knew I was in trouble when my cadet/cc started complaining about the cadets. It was a signal to get some good programing/training into the schedule.  That was the real "tough" part.  That will never change

[IceNine]

If a whole flight is messing around, is it a violation of the CPPT to engage in some impromptu physical fitness by doing some push-ups? Note: not punishment, but just physical fitness for the whole flight.

Ok  honestly, I think that if the whole squadron is messing around and wont listen to anything you say, I think that push-ups are necessary but I understand what you guys are saying. Thanks for all your ideas and regs.

If this is a problem, Look internally... It may not be a problem with the followers.

[stratoflyer]

Perhaps I should have clarified a bit. First, I said a flight, not the squadron. Second, this flight might be full of cadets looking for more physical activities. Third, what if these guys are good cadets but there's just one of those moments where concentration seems to mind.

Of course if this were the case every meeting, obviously there would be something wrong. But with if several of the regular flight members are missing, and the ones that did show up for the majority feel like messing around a bit.

What I've seen happen is at our squadron we have a policy that if cadets feel weak or in any way about to pass out in formation, they raise their hand and ask permission to sit in the shade until they recover. What happened is now a bunch of cadets are taking advantage of this and as soon as in formation, they ask to be out because they feel 'weak'. No one can say otherwise and they are allowed sit out on opening formations DURING RAISING OF THE FLAG!! And then they look like nothings wrong and you ask them and they say nope, still not feeling better.

Mind you, I have seen a few pass out and throw up from overheating, and that's why we have that policy.

SO, with that said, if we are in the shade, and the temps are cool, and there's no way for them to get out of formation...

Yeah yeah, I know some of you are gonna fir out and say "oh, there's a problem with your CP" or oh, this and that ___ _____ _____ _____

Just remember, I'm a senior member...not DCC and not C/CC or Flt Sgt.

[FW]

I understood the post perfectly

One of the many laws of nature is: Dealing with teenagers is a real challenge.

As this law is universal and will never change, we must deal with it and obey its fundamental truth in the most humane way allowable under all our other laws and regulations.  Otherwise the paperwork will kill ya.

Once the above is understood, solutions to all these types of problems, at the squadron, will usually work out with a modicum of discussion and direct supervision.  If that doesn't work, suppress the urge to get out the 50 cal. and work it out with the cadets a bit more.  If there is a problem with opening formation, figure out why and fix it.  You can't fix something if you don't know what is broken and, you can't fix it without the proper tools at hand. (that's another law I learned about)

Take the problems in stride,  give them the opportunity to learn from their negative behavior by introducing the concept of accountability and, watch the fun.  

[Eclipse]

What I've seen happen is at our squadron we have a policy that if cadets feel weak or in any way about to pass out in formation, they raise their hand and ask permission to sit in the shade until they recover. What happened is now a bunch of cadets are taking advantage of this and as soon as in formation, they ask to be out because they feel 'weak'. No one can say otherwise and they are allowed sit out on opening formations DURING RAISING OF THE FLAG!! And then they look like nothings wrong and you ask them and they say nope, still not feeling better.

If you have cadets "Technicolor yawning" or passing out in formation, you're out there too long.

For the goldbrickers this is easy - make sure you have a qualified HSO from the unit on standby - if they feel "faint" have them checked, then send them home, immediately.

Two instances require them to have mom and dad return with a doctor's note before they can participate in any outside activity - if they can't even stand in line for a  few minutes, there must be something very wrong with them.

Let them know they can't game the system and still play when they feel like it.

[Sleepwalker]

   As a Squadron Commander, NO harrassing or hazing is allowed at any time for any reason - that includes ANY pushups for ANY 'punishment' reasons for ANY number of Cadets.  It is not up to debate according to the regs - period.  Any deviation or excuse is is wrong - period.  What is the option then?  I make it VERY clear to all the Cadets that  there is ONE  - and only ONE - option open to me; a 2B.  We talk about their problem, more than once, maybe up to  three times, but I have effectivly 2B'd two Cadets (over the past 4 years) and all the others are quite motivated to behave.  It works VERY well.  The two cases were told that I was going to put in the paperwork to suspend or 2B them and they both quit of thier own accord.  The old saying goes (as a play on words of course) that "sometimes you have to shoot a hostage".  Many other Cadets who were starting to become problems straightened up very quickly when informed that they might be 2B'd. We are very limited on how anyone can respond to problem Cadets, but doing pushups is stricktly forbidden and therefore NOT an option.
   If any of my Cadets tried to make others do pushups as punishment, they might be looking at thier own 2B.  Yet my Cadet staff rarely have any discipline problems. 

                 

[Ned]

^ You are correct that pushups are simply not allowed for punishment reasons at any time, but I cannot agree that the only remedy available to a commander is the drastic remedy of a 2B.

Commanders have a full range of discretion in dealing with violations of regs by members, ranging from simple education on the applicable standard through formal counseling and reprimand and a number of other options before reaching the drastic step of involuntary membership termination.

Just as we tell cadet leaders that there are a number of disciplinary tools available to them in dealing with cadets -- the only notable exception being the "pushup tool" which we have taken out of the toolbox; commanders have a full "toolbox" that has a whole lot of tools in it other than the "2B tool."

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor

[TEAM SURGE]

Your right for the most part a lot of cadets parents are way over to protective!

I think hazing is a flight sergent making a cadet  pump out 50 push ups for no reason, yelling at a cadet for no reason what so ever. It's some cadets get "butt hurt" when somebody raises there voice or corrects them rudely.

I think the program should be a little rough on the cadets. Some cadets just don't get things into their head if your to soft about things. If your a little rough on the cadets eventually it teaches discipline.

[jeders]

Your right for the most part a lot of cadets parents are way over to protective!

I think hazing is a flight sergent making a cadet  pump out 50 push ups for no reason, yelling at a cadet for no reason what so ever. It's some cadets get "butt hurt" when somebody raises there voice or corrects them rudely.

I think the program should be a little rough on the cadets. Some cadets just don't get things into their head if your to soft about things. If your a little rough on the cadets eventually it teaches discipline.

Believe me, you can teach discipline without being rough. And if you are physically or mentally rough, it could easily be construed as hazing or abuse.

[ol'fido]

Most of the "discipline problems" i've read about in these posts seem to be instances of cadets who weren't trained or told what was expected in the first place. If you look in the dictionary you'll usually find that the first definition of discipline is training and not punishment.  Train them right, set the standard, enforce the standard, and make sure YOU!!!! are meeting the standard yourself and the cadets will normally follow suit.  I have found that when cadets are in error the fault can usually be found in the leadership not the cadet. If the the cadet is there and they want to be a part of the program they will meet the standard or exceed it. If not they will drift off to the local computer blog and be out of your hair.  Make sure you are training them right and not doing what your "ole sarge" did to you or what you saw on some military movie out of Hollywood. This will clear up 99% of your problem.

[Sleepwalker]

^ You are correct that pushups are simply not allowed for punishment reasons at any time, but I cannot agree that the only remedy available to a commander is the drastic remedy of a 2B.

Commanders have a full range of discretion in dealing with violations of regs by members, ranging from simple education on the applicable standard through formal counseling and reprimand and a number of other options before reaching the drastic step of involuntary membership termination.

Just as we tell cadet leaders that there are a number of disciplinary tools available to them in dealing with cadets -- the only notable exception being the "pushup tool" which we have taken out of the toolbox; commanders have a full "toolbox" that has a whole lot of tools in it other than the "2B tool."

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor

Ned,

     Didn't I just say I do all those things before a 2B?  I totally agree with you.   I give you the benefit of the doubt by asuming that you did not understand what I was getting at.  By definition, all the "tools" available to us are 'academic' (talking to, reprimand, etc) but the only real "punishment" we can force upon problem Cadets is a 2B (It could be argued that a reduction in rank is also punishment, but in my experience it is the brand new Cadet with one or two stripes that is the problem, and they don't have anything really invested in the rank).  All I am saying is that #1: we CANNOT do push-ups - period.  #2: If you let the Cadets know that since we cannot do pushups, the only real punishment option is a 2B, they "get it".  I make sure that the new Cadets and Parents understand this on Day 1.  This has worked very well with my Squadron and many others that I know of. 
   The other two dozen Cadets that are there to learn are very grateful for the clear boundaries.  As a note, I have had many Cadets who were informed of this when they joined and began to show lax discipline - they have become some of the best Cadets we have without needing to do pushups.       
   We must be doing something right as our little squadron makes several Lts, Majors, and Captains every year, along with three Spaatz Cadets over a year and a half period (a fourth one is testing right now).  We have put four Cadets into service Academies in that time as well.         

[Ned]

Ned,

     Didn't I just say I do all those things before a 2B?  I totally agree with you.   I give you the benefit of the doubt by asuming that you did not understand what I was getting at. 

Perhaps you are correct that I misunderstood.  But I've gone back over your response, and I'm still a little confused, I guess. 

You said

As a Squadron Commander, NO harrassing or hazing is allowed at any time for any reason - that includes ANY pushups for ANY 'punishment' reasons for ANY number of Cadets.  [. . .]   What is the option then?  I make it VERY clear to all the Cadets that  there is ONE  - and only ONE - option open to me; a 2B.  [. . .] I have effectivly 2B'd two Cadets (over the past 4 years) and all the others are quite motivated to behave.  It works VERY well. The two cases were told that I was going to put in the paperwork to suspend or 2B them and they both quit of thier own accord.  The old saying goes (as a play on words of course) that "sometimes you have to shoot a hostage".  Many other Cadets who were starting to become problems straightened up very quickly when informed that they might be 2B'd. We are very limited on how anyone can respond to problem

Maybe I'm getting old, but even after re-reading your post it sounds like you hammer anyone giving pushups with a 2B.

I'm not suggesting that a 2B is always inappropriate -- you are the commander and you are the person with the knowledge on the situation.  I'm just a staff guy out to support you in the exercise of your discretion wherever possible.

But every commander needs to know that there are a bunch of other options before reaching for the 2B.

Maybe where we differ is in how we define "punishment."

I use the word "punishment" in the sense of something I do with or to a cadet in attempt to reduce bad behavior.  (Like if I encountered a cadet NCO giving pushups as a punishment.) 

That can cover a lot of ground from things like demotion or delayed promotions to formal and informal counselings, to remedial duties and training related to the deficiency. 

In fact, I don't think of a 2b as "punishment," since it doesn't really address the behavior -- it just gets the perpetrator out of the system. (The threat of a 2B could be a punishment, however.)

I honestly and genuinely appreciate the good work that you are doing for our cadets, and you are certainly right that you "must be doing something right" with your record of accomplishments.


And if I somehow misunderstood your post, I apologize. 

But it sounds as if we agree that there are a whole lot more remedies to this kind of situation than summarily terminating the offender.

Ned Lee

[arajca]

Ned,
   one of the sections you snipped says

We talk about their problem, more than once, maybe up to  three times

Seems to me that Sleepwalker told us the 2B is at the end of escalating consouling sessions, not an immediate response. Although, depending to the problem, it may be an appropriate immediate response.

[JoeTomasone]

If a recruit feels that he's been harassed, threatened, demeaned, etc, he reports it and the DI in question is immediately relieved pending an investigation. 

Let me guess, you heard someone else say this.  This crap is not true. 

Actually, I read it in a book called "Boot":

http://www.amazon.com/Boot-Daniel-Da-Cruz/dp/0312900600/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220468243&sr=1-1


It was in a chapter discussing how the DIs viewed the restrictions placed upon them.   It said without ambiguity that a DI accused of mistreating recruits is immediately relieved pending investigation.  In fact, they ask the recruits if anyone has verbally abused them, physically abused them, etc, and then inform them that they can go immediately to the Squadron's CO (IIRC) in the event that they feel they have been abused.   


In another book that follows a Navy SEAL class through BUD/S, but whose title I cannot recall, they discuss how the program has been scaled back in intensity due to external pressure.

[stratoflyer]

I thought the discussion on the 2b was pretty insightful.

I my university courses, they taught that we should definitely make our expectations clear to every class of what is expected of them. We were also told to make 'positive' rules and not 'negative' rules consisting of a bunch of "don'ts". See, what happens is if you tell a kid not to push a red shiny button, he's darn well gonna push the button.

I'm basically saying I agree that Day 1 of a cadet's training in CAP should include a stern list of expectations of discipline and leadership. Fact is, promotions are nothing more than evaluations on meeting said expectations: not just run-of-the-mill testing and drone answers.

Somewhere in there I also read something that made me wonder: we can be physically and mentally challenging cadets: physically through fitness and mentally through academics. I would say it is how you come across laying out expectations for these things that matters.

[TEAM SURGE]

I thought the discussion on the 2b was pretty insightful.

I my university courses, they taught that we should definitely make our expectations clear to every class of what is expected of them. We were also told to make 'positive' rules and not 'negative' rules consisting of a bunch of "don'ts". See, what happens is if you tell a kid not to push a red shiny button, he's darn well gonna push the button.

I'm basically saying I agree that Day 1 of a cadet's training in CAP should include a stern list of expectations of discipline and leadership. Fact is, promotions are nothing more than evaluations on meeting said expectations: not just run-of-the-mill testing and drone answers.

Somewhere in there I also read something that made me wonder: we can be physically and mentally challenging cadets: physically through fitness and mentally through academics. I would say it is how you come across laying out expectations for these things that matters.

Absolutely if you enforce your rules they will stick. Out of the arguement you have all I got out of it was no pushups, 2b's(which I don't know?). I am just saying Be strict. Don;t let something slide. If you let it slide they will never get it corrected.

[DC]

2b's(which I don't know?).

2b is a shorthand reference to CAPF 2B, Membership Termination. To be 2Bed is to be kicked out of CAP.

While it does not necessarily mean leaving the organization on bad terms (there are several possible reasons listed on the form, including joinng the military, etc), it is usually thought of in that context, because most people leaving by choice just let their membership expire...

[arajca]

I thought the discussion on the 2b was pretty insightful.

I my university courses, they taught that we should definitely make our expectations clear to every class of what is expected of them. We were also told to make 'positive' rules and not 'negative' rules consisting of a bunch of "don'ts". See, what happens is if you tell a kid not to push a red shiny button, he's darn well gonna push the button.

I'm basically saying I agree that Day 1 of a cadet's training in CAP should include a stern list of expectations of discipline and leadership. Fact is, promotions are nothing more than evaluations on meeting said expectations: not just run-of-the-mill testing and drone answers.

Somewhere in there I also read something that made me wonder: we can be physically and mentally challenging cadets: physically through fitness and mentally through academics. I would say it is how you come across laying out expectations for these things that matters.

Absolutely if you enforce your rules they will stick. Out of the arguement you have all I got out of it was no pushups, 2b's(which I don't know?). I am just saying Be strict. Don;t let something slide. If you let it slide they will never get it corrected.

Something that wasn't explicitly stated but works quite well - make any punishment fit the offense. For example, if a cadet won't salute properly after being trained and corrected several times, have them give a report on the history and significance of the salute to the unit. I have seen this done several times and I have seen a noticible improvement each time (different cadets). If they will not comlpete the assignment, hold their promotions until they do - failure to obey a direct order.

[Ford73Diesel]

I do not believe push-ups are an appropriate punishment. Yelling and creating a stressful (to a small degree) environment should only be reserved for encampment. In my military experience, boot camp squares away someone, and from that point on they know how to act, (for the most part, there are exceptions) and any school or operational setting ofter that is more relaxed, becuase if things were like boot camp all the time, no one would remain in the military.

I also think that "punishment" in the form of withholding promotions or something like that would work much better to instill discipline.

[Ford73Diesel]

However for minor offenses in CAP there is no easy way to "punish" someone.

Some units have had limited success with a points system where so many points would result in a 2b or withholding of promotion. I like the idea of writing an essay as someone mentioned earlier.
.

[stratoflyer]

Yeah, the essay idea was cool. Could be hand written after a regular meeting with senior members and cadet staff supervising and instructing? Sound like detention?

[arajca]

I've seen it done as homework. Why punish the seniors and cadet staff?

[stratoflyer]

They'd be having a staff meeting somewhere nearby keeping an eye?

[DC]

Why does it have to be supervised? You could just tell Cadet Snuffy that you want an essay that is x words long on subject y by next week, or else.

It is usually fairly easy to tell if it is plagarized or not, and asking a cadet to stay late after a meeting can be difficult. I have had parents get after me because the meeting broke 10 minutes late, how will you tell a parent that their kid has to stay another hour to write an essay. (on that subject, how will you find a SM that wants to sit there and babysit him?)

I'd say have them do it on their own, maybe with a phone call in the middle of the week to check on their progress/remind them.

[ol'fido]

I still believe that in most cases that cadets that are properly trained and lead will not cause problems that can't be cured with a simple "Alright, people, let's put it in check" or the patented, number 3 "death stare". Cadets behaving badly is usually youthful rambunctiousness or lack of training and not from any real desire to cause trouble. Good leadership will usually solve this. Yelling to discipline should be used rarely if at all. If you try to be Mr. Hardcore all the time, the cadets will become dulled to it and all you will get out of yelling is a sore throat. In fact, some of the most effective butt chewings I've got in my life were by someone speaking at barely more than a whisper.

However, if you feel like you need a system here's one for you. The key to it is progressive discipline. That means that there is a graduated response to most minor transgressions. The more the offense occurs; the greater the disciplinary measure taken. For instance, you can give each cadet a couple of 3x5 cards: a warning card and a demerit card. The first step in progressive discipline is the verbal warning or "don't do that!". The next step would be the written warning. Let's say that cadet Smith didn't have his rank insignia on correctly for the second time. You tell him to fix it and write on his warning card: insignia improperly worn, the date and your name.  On down the road you see Smith with his boots not shined. You look at his warning card and see that Maj Jones warned him the month before about his boots. So, you write him a demerit on his demerit cards.

After 6 demerits, the cadet gets a sit down formal counseling session. Formal counseling can also be done if a cadet gets more than three demerits within a certain time period like two meetings(?). Once, the cadet has 12 demerits he gets a formal counseling and a term of adminstrative hold for say one month. That means that no paper work such as promotions or recognition can be filled out on that cadet for the term of the hold. This is an activity restriction as well. The next time the cadet gets 12 demerits it goes to two months hold, then three, then six. If the cadet has had a total of one year of administraitive holds, then I would have a review board and then if all were in agreement, 2b the cadet. This is a variation of what we do where I work.  You given the cadet every opportunity to steer the right course and you've also created a paper chain of documented disciplinary problems.

[cap235629]

(on that subject, how will you find a SM that wants to sit there and babysit him?)

You mean 2 senior members 

[DC]

(on that subject, how will you find a SM that wants to sit there and babysit him?)

You mean 2 senior members 

Not exactly.

Ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

Emphasis mine. Two SMs must be present at overnight activities (its a seperate discussion, but note that it does not specify the gender of those SMs), it is encouraged that there be two SMs at other activities, but not required.

[stratoflyer]

I really liked olefido's suggestion. I think that works great. It reminds me though of a little game I used to play...

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

(on that subject, how will you find a SM that wants to sit there and babysit him?)

You mean 2 senior members 

Not exactly.

Ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

Emphasis mine. Two SMs must be present at overnight activities (its a seperate discussion, but note that it does not specify the gender of those SMs), it is encouraged that there be two SMs at other activities, but not required.

But CPPT requires that you do not have 1 cadet and 1 senior alone. So either his/her battle buddy goes along or you need a 2nd SM

[jimmydeanno]

But CPPT requires that you do not have 1 cadet and 1 senior alone. So either his/her battle buddy goes along or you need a 2nd SM

CAPR 52-10 does not state that anywhere in it.  However, good judgement and common sense would dictate situations where the appearance of inpropriety would strongly suggest you have someone else available.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

I stand corrected.

From CAPP 50-3

Generally, this means that a minimum of two senior members will be present when appropriate and feasible.

This does give some leeway. 
Especially in a discipline situation I would not put myself alone with a cadet. I've done quite a few Level I trainings and have always said avoid a cadet said / you said situation, by having min groups of 3.

[notaNCO forever]

 Even if your another cadet I would recommend you avoid being alone with another cadet that your "disciplining".

[DC]

I stand corrected.

From CAPP 50-3

Generally, this means that a minimum of two senior members will be present when appropriate and feasible.

This does give some leeway. 
Especially in a discipline situation I would not put myself alone with a cadet. I've done quite a few Level I trainings and have always said avoid a cadet said / you said situation, by having min groups of 3.

You shouldn't. It isn't mandated by the regulation, but it is just common sense that you should not be alone with a cadet at any time. That is the thing with regulations, a lot of times you have to apply common sense when interpreting and implementing them.

[stratoflyer]

Common sense is the least common of all senses.

Protect yourself. Do not put yourself in a questionable position. These days, every one is lawsuit happy.

That is why I started this thread, to see how poeple approached discipline and strictness differently.

[Ned]

Common sense is the least common of all senses.

Protect yourself. Do not put yourself in a questionable position. These days, every one is lawsuit happy.

Although I am no longer a CAP legal officer, I'd like to point out that there is no significant legal exposure to simply being alone with a cadet at a CAP activity.  I've never seen or heard of such a lawsuit, and I'm pretty sure I would have after nearly 40 years in CP at every level from local to National and as a CAP legal officer.

Mostly because no ethical lawyer could file such a silly lawsuit.

Moreover, there simply isn't a problem of cadets falsely claiming molest during a squadron meeting or similar activity.  That's not an accident, but rather a result of experienced CP officers appying our very reasonable CPP as well as their own common sense and experience.  We have a system designed to hold members accountable for their actions, including both harming cadets as well as making false claims.  It seems to be working pretty well.



It bears repeating -- our cadets deserve to be challenged, mentored, led, and trained.

Safeguard them and apply generous amounts of common sense and you will be fine.



Too many seniors treat our cadets like they were some sort of IED; waiting to explode and engulf some innocent senior in endless and costly litigation.


That's a serious disservice to our cadets and an indication that the senior might be more comfortable working primarily in ES or AE.




Ned Lee
Former Legal Officer
(and current National Cadet Advisor)

[stratoflyer]

Too many seniors treat our cadets like they were some sort of IED; waiting to explode and engulf some innocent senior in endless and costly litigation.
That's a serious disservice to our cadets and an indication that the senior might be more comfortable working primarily in ES or AE.

Like I said, it was the reason why I wanted opinions on this matter.

As far as what I said earlier, it was more from my experience in the teaching field. I work at a private school as well as a private school and some of the things I've seen and the stories I've heard, they just make me want to be doubly careful with youth. I'm very young myself and sometimes works against me as people sometimes think I am too inexperienced. Again, when I wrote that, I was mainly thinking on a broader aspect.

I am glad to know that our Cadets can handle and even desire many challenges and training.

[SJFedor]

I stand corrected.

From CAPP 50-3

Generally, this means that a minimum of two senior members will be present when appropriate and feasible.

This does give some leeway. 
Especially in a discipline situation I would not put myself alone with a cadet. I've done quite a few Level I trainings and have always said avoid a cadet said / you said situation, by having min groups of 3.

Note that the citation you provided is from a pamphlet, not a regulation. Pamphlets are kinda "how-to's" and "best practices", whereas regulations are "regulatory".

But, of course, it's always good to not try and get yourself in any form of compromising situation.