How tough is tough?

[stratoflyer]

I think I'm about to open a can of worms here but I really hope to hear some sound opinions on this one.

How tough can cadets be? I'm talking in terms of strictness and military bearing and all that stuff. Maybe a case scenario would help here...

There's this squadron (let's call it Squadron Soft) that has a cadet staff that is unmotivated. They feel they have their hands tied by the seniors who cite the Cadet Protection Policy way too much. For example, cadet cadre cannot be heard raising their voices at a flight; having a flight stand at attention for more than a minute is excessive; cadets are not allowed to perform much physical activity, even when in BDU's.

When a cadet walks by a senior member or cadet officer and doesn't salute, nothing is said.

We are all aware of hazing, but based on other postings, hazing is still something that is debated and handled differently among squadrons. One cadet at a squadron once told me that she thought it becomes hazing when the cadet himself feels that it is hazing--for example, if the cadet wants to do pushups for discipline, than he can volunteer pushups.

In short, I think that a lot of seniors are just too afraid about the protection policy and is compounded by over-protective parents. Yet I've seen some squadrons handle their meetings as if they were 3 hour encampments.

[stratoflyer]

Check out the discussion that took place in this topic:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=5404.0

This is a subject that is very dear and imperative to many folks out there.

[Duke Dillio]

A friend of mine used to recite his favorite saying:

"There is a fine line between being hard and being stupid."

The goal of CAP is to develop future leaders from America's youth.  Many people, in and out of CAP, have different opinions on conduct in regards to developing youth.  For example, a lot of the "bleeding heart liberals" will tell you that it is never okay to spank a child.  Others believe that you should "spank them early and spank them often."  Everyone has a different opinion on how to raise kids and develop leaders and citizens out of them.

I personally don't have any problem with cadets doing pushups or other physical activities, within reason.  The problem is that there is a always a small group that goes overboard, then the lawyers get involved, and voila the regs change to stop it from happening again.  This is not inherent to CAP.  It happens in governments at all levels.  The only thing you can really do is follow the regs as written and use a little bit of common sense.

[lordmonar]

My cadets are not unmotivated...they follow the customs and courtesies.  They salute me...even when they don't have to.

And I don't have to yell, and threaten push ups, or make them stand at attention for too long.

Discipline is not instilled by yelling, and push ups.  YMMV

[JoeTomasone]

Just check out the various boot camps for the military - most have changed dramatically due to concerns about being too hard on the recruits.   The Marine Corps is a great example.   If a recruit feels that he's been harassed, threatened, demeaned, etc, he reports it and the DI in question is immediately relieved pending an investigation. 

[SM-MADDOG]

I think that CAP should let the program be a little tougher than what it is, but when your deaing with Cadets young in age to 18 you cant do much with them. Say you have a cadet that is 12 or 13 and if we were real tough for dislipline you ride them hard then they quit. I think if the proper policy is followed you can still take care of dislipline areas. But the Cadet Protection Policy amoung other reg's say Seniors and Cadet Officers or supervisors cant do certain things. Me being a Senior im not going to violate it lol. Im a new Cadet Program Officer and am learning more everyday about the cadet program.

[stratoflyer]

Part of it is what I've seen in other posts: there are just too many cadets that are too young. 15 is young but heck 12? How about a difference in regular cadets (15 and up) and junior cadets (12 - 15).

The boy scouts have cub scouts. How about we have junior cadets?

[IceNine]

^ the cub cadets (pun intended) are in the experimental stages right now, but it will be IIRC like 6 and up

As for the Cadet Protection Policy, this document is a tool to help keep us in check and protect our cadets.  It is not, and never was intended to dumb down leadership or halt tough love leadership.

If you wouldn't do it to an employee at work, don't do it to our cadets.  There is no reason you cannot correct them, or call their bluff, or let them drill for a couple hours, or do PT on a Red flag day.

The problem is not the Cadet Protection Policy, its the interpretation that too many have taken.  Again this doc is just a guide, not a Training Timeout card for out cadets.

[Dad2-4]

Part of it is what I've seen in other posts: there are just too many cadets that are too young. 15 is young but heck 12? How about a difference in regular cadets (15 and up) and junior cadets (12 - 15).

The boy scouts have cub scouts. How about we have junior cadets?

Jr Cadets are part of an elementary school program being tested right now. Very successful from what I gather. http://www.cap.gov/visitors/news/cap_news_online/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&nodeID=6192&newsID=3622&year=2007&month=10
12 years old is not a "junior cadet", but a full fledged, card carrying, achievement earning "regular cadet." I have a new middle school based unit and these 12+ year old members are just as motivated and hard working as any older cadet I've seen. While they have moments of high spiritedness and need to settled down, so do older cadets. It's just a different type of high spirited activity.
If you wait until kids are 15 to begin recruiting them, you're passing up a lot of good potential, and competing against a lot of other activities.

[Stonewall]

If a recruit feels that he's been harassed, threatened, demeaned, etc, he reports it and the DI in question is immediately relieved pending an investigation. 

Let me guess, you heard someone else say this.  This crap is not true.  Probably not a day, maybe an hour, that goes by, that recruits are not "harassed, threatened or demeaned" by the pure definition of those words.  While AF recruits may be going to Burger King in their 3rd week (saw it with my own two eyes 3 weeks ago) you can sure bet that their TIs are giving them push-ups, threatening the same, and otherwise harassing them.  Again, I saw it with my own two eyes while working with AF BMT recruits in July over on the Medina Annex of Lackland AFB.

I've got a friend who is a drill sergeant at Ft. Benning, again, you can sure bet that only in extreme cases, like someone getting physically beaten, that a drill sergeant is relieved pending an investigation. 

No matter what, whether it be in CAP or the military, one generation will always say the generations of today "have it easy" or the service as a whole is "soft".  I say it myself, more so in CAP than in the military, but it is to be expected.

I speak of my time as a cadet of the 80s and cadets of today are in awe of what we did.  If you'd like, I can show pictures of us firing .50 cals, rappelling, doing "water ops" and putting on our special "Recondo" program...totally on our own, mostly without senior member supervision.  If you ask me, it's the cadets who are different.  Take orientation flights as an example.  I can barely get cadets to fly in a 2006 C-182 Glass Cockpit for free without begging, bribing or basically picking them up at their doorstep.  As a cadet I didn't care for flying, but I also took every single opportunity to do something, anything, in CAP.  So yeah, I flew my little butt off, more than the 6 alloted O-rides.

Hell, my buddy and I, at age 15, managed to get ourselves on the Golden Knights' aircraft during TWO SEPARATE AIRSHOWS as "ride alongs".  Even got our squadron commander to sign off that we were the squadron Public Information Officers....which, for those two days, we were.  Night time call-outs, multi-day missions, real and training, 6 hour road trips to visit other squadrons, fly in simulators, get military orientation flights...yeah, I'd say the program of today is rather wimpy and lacks a set of brass balls nuggets.  Ever have a 17 year old cadet plan, manage, execute and lead 20 cadets through a 3 day survival exercise on a mountain without any help from seniors other than supervision during the actual activity?  Yeah, that was in 1999, less than 10 years ago.  He is now a Captain (Ranger) in the Army.  Not just talking the talk, got pictures from pretty much every "tough" activity we ever did.  And yes, I've done lots of push-ups and have given lots of push-ups, but not for a long long time since they've been frowned upon.

Push-ups is a stupid issue.  Are they necessary?  No.  Can they be effective?  Yes, for some cases.  They are not to be used as actual (real) punishment, but yeah, it ain't rocket science, but still, some people, mostly senior cadets and goofy senior members that saw Full Metal Jacket too many times can't comprehend how to use things like push-ups.  And for that, it is just better that they not be allowed at all in CAP.  While I may be able to "drop" a group of cadets in the field during an FTX for not "dummy cording" their gear (after losing a flashlight), you'll find some 350 lbs senior member in spandex BBDUs "smoking" the crap out of a group of cadets until their hands bleed, all the while he's eating a donut and bragging to his buddy sitting in the station wagon with all the lights and sirens about how hardcorps he is.

[BillB]

In February, there was a reunion of former Florida Wing cadets from the 1940's up to 1990. Many of the attendees were still active CAP members. The conversation went back to how different todays cadet program is compared to the 60's and even up to the 90's. As Stonewall says, the cadets are also different. Schedule O-rides and see how many cadets DON'T show up.
But in many cases it's a matter of CAP doesn't even know it's own history. Four years ago, an all-female color guard won National Color Guard Competition. National did a news release that it was the first female team to win a National Competition. National was wrong. In 1964, the Miami All-Girls Squadron won National Drill Competition. At the reunion many of the former "MAGS" heard about the news release and as one woman commented, "another National screwup".
The cadet program in the 50's through mid 60's was different from the mid 60's to 90's which was very much different again. So you can say there have been four different cadet programs. The 1942 to 47, the period of WW II where cadets were mainly on a path to the USAAF. The 50's through mid 60's when the Squadron Commander ran the cadet program including promotions and demotions (without achievements). The mid 60's through the 1990's when there was USAF support, airlift, encampments etc. with more senior control of the program.  And lastly the 90's to today when the corporation developed more authority and CPPT was established.
Much of the blame for CPPT "dumbing" the cadet program isn't valid, in that many of the problems are based on Commanders, at all levels reading of the Regulation. To often they prohibit something that they think might embarrass the cadet. On the Corporate level, an activity is "dumbed" to protect the corporation from lawsuits. But in general the reunion atendees (which included two former Wing Commanders) agreed that the old program was more fun for cadets than the current program.

[stratoflyer]

The last 2 comments are very insightful. They speak of a long time ago, but I was a cadet up until 3 years ago and I feel like the cadets' world has changed. True, and I agree, unit commanders have a lot to do with it. But I do have to say it is up to the cadets themselves. Cadets turning down o-rides in my book is heretical. But, asking kids to get up in the morning on a Saturday or asking them to go play outside to many parents is also heretical. I've met parents that have said things like kids have it tough these days. They speak academically with all the competition for college and all. But I say kids fainting outside the campus bookstore because they never played outside is something that needs to be addressed. 

Remember CAP helps develop better citizens for America? Well, I can see that the future is being filled more and more with whiners, complainers, and people that just weasel around. We need to address our youth, and CAP is an outstanding way to do so. But these kids need to be encouraged and find motivation within. And it starts by examples: seniors have a lot to do with it.

[Eclipse]

The world has changed, including the military.

Less, less, less, all the way around.  How many bases have closed since the mid-80's?

Less bases means less people with paramilitary leadership experience to guide the programs, which in turns means more straight-out civilians trying their best to mixed results.

Less bases means less access to military "toys" and resources and less access to behavioral examples.

How many major cities no longer have a military presence of any kind?
(Guard bases and reserve centers don't really "count", as many of them hide in commercial areas and you can't tell them from every other business.  I'm talking about "real" bases that have a visceral impact on the economy and attitudes.  Chicago, for example, used to have several armories in the city limits, a large USAF and ANG presence at O'Hare, and several large bases in the vicinity including Fort Sheridan, Glenview NAS, Rantoul, Chanute, and Joliet, not to mention the Nike bases all over the place.  Now, if it weren't for Great Lakes, and the small Guard base at Midway, people in Chicago would rarely see a uniform at all.)

How many services went though a phase of "professionalization" to attract a higher caliber of recruit?

While overtly there may be a high-level of "support the troops", in a lot of places its actually "support somebody else doing the dirty jobs".

There is no longer a national expectation of service, and largely families "cocoon" into their own worlds and don't even know their next door neighbors.

There is also a lot more vying for kids' attention these days.

When I was cadet age there were about 15 TV stations, and most of the networks could care less about my demographic.

Summer meant running out the front door of my house and not coming back until dinner time.  Today its XBox time and texting, unless you Tivo'ed something good or need to update FaceSpace.

Most park district & school coaches think they are building professional teams and require nearly year-round commitment, with little sympathy for excuses like "serving their country in uniform" ("either he practices or he's benched, I don't care if it >is< Memorial Day and school's closed...").

Yes, a lot has changed.

[stratoflyer]

Grim and true...

[arajca]

WIWAC (early 80's), we marched EVERYWHERE at encampment. Usually six - seven miles a day. And we called jodies every time. A couple years ago, when I was safety officer for an encampment, the senior staff was trying to figure out how to transport the cadets to the meal facility using vans since the usual facility was closed for remodelling. The new facility was about 1/4 mile away. WTF! I made the recommendation that the cadets MARCH to meals. You'd swear I suggested they simulate the Bataan Death March from the reaction from some seniors. Fortunately, the commander decided I had the right idea and the cadets marched to and from meals. The usual facility was about 100' from the dorms.

[CASH172]

I'll try and give a more younger view at this.  Today's average teenager has a lot to worry about.  The most important thing that most think of and their parents as well, is college.  It seems everything in the world revolves around getting that college application to look perfect for when its sent in.  Parents view getting a varied mix of extracurricular activities will do the job, on top of good grades and such.  Everything is so structured for teenagers.  One day's track practice, next is CAP, then Debate, then theater, it just doesn't leave a teenager time to devote to CAP outside of his/her regular time. 

CAP is a what each cadet makes of it.  Some only show up regularly to meetings and barely participate outside of the squadron.  To most college admissions officers, they don't see much beyond the words "Civil Air Patrol" in the college application.  They see  the student has participated and weigh that all the same.  Problem is, some cadet could've reached C/A1C while another one is a C/Capt, and many colleges wouldn't know the difference.  I think it's one problem today, that the general knowledge of CAP and its role is not widespread.

Many parents and cadets know this too and will just simply show up to the point where it can be written in a resume.  They don't get involved beyond that, but the whole cadet experience involves getting outside and doing advanced activities.  In this, they never develop all the advanced leadership skills and traits that CAP is meant to teach. 

In terms of CPP and the corporatizing of CAP, I never experienced what everyone calls the good ol' days, so I can't say which is better or worse.  I will say from what I'm reading that it sounded like a much more interesting program to be in.  Unfortunately, the times change.  The military changes, teenagers change, the world changes, and CAP just has to adjust. 

[AlphaSigOU]

WIWAC (late 70s - mid 80s for me)...

Rappelling off a 250' cliff, 200 of which was in midair, with only a fellow cadet on belay. (I was too young at the time to go down the 750' cliff.)

Corrupting our young, impressionable cadink minds with salty language and even saltier jody calls/cadences.

Pushing down the surface of the earth several inches courtesy of many, many pushups.

FTXs complete with bottle rocket battles. (That stopped when someone got injured.)

Much closer cooperation with the Air Force... almost every squadron or group had a AF Reserve CAP liaison just a phone call away, and nine times out of ten we'd get an o-ride or surplus uniforms with no problem.

But that was back in the days when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was a cadink. Even though I am proud to have been a 'dink in those days, today I rarely interact with cadets, not because it isn't the same program I experienced when I was their ages but it's gone in a totally different direction. To many it's just an activity you can check off for your kid's college application.

[Eclipse]

(That stopped when someone got injured.)

A lot of what comprises the known universe today falls into or was defined by that statement.

[stratoflyer]

Yeah, that's what I was pointing at. The whole thing about filling out a resume. That attitude stinks, because what suffers is quality. Like many have said, these kids show up and do the minimum, and miss out on a great opportunity. Parents have a big say in that of course.

Personal experience: all that resume building went to hell when I had to stay home and take care of my family. And IMHO, I'm a better person today because of what I learned during these past few arduous years. Some of these college graduates have no idea what the real world is like: I see it happen around me all the time. Not that I'm some ol' fart with eons of experience, but real world livin' is something a resume aint never gonna reflect fully. Some of the best mentors I've ever had didn't even finish college until later in life and were toughened up because they had to fight for their education.

I guess what I'm saying is this: the more you want something, and the more you have to battle for it, the more it's going to mean something to you, and the more  it will help you. I think that is what's missing: kids just don't appreciate things like they should.

Example: talk to a kid about the first American in space: ask him how brave that guy really was to be strapped to a converted war weapon and shot into a void in a little tiny capsule. See what kind of response you get.

[Michael]

In my leadership experiences, I've learned that a modest amount of toughness and yelling is good and healthy. 

When I was yelled at when I was an in-flight, the toughness of my leaders pressured me. It made me move and act better. It made me a better cadet.

But when it gets anal, it needs to stop, and leaders need to start looking at what their goals really are, and what good things are already happening.

In addition, all forms of loud "calling out" should be done at the whole flight, never at one person.  That I've also found is very bad.