Color Guard Rifles

[L Cid]

I would like to purchase M14 drill rifles for our Color Guard unit.  Does anyone have a site or place where i can find and purchase M14 rifles?  Thanks for your response.

[DrDave]

Not sure if they have M14 replicas, but Glendale is an excellent source for all things color/honor guard:

www.glendale.com

Dr. Dave

[jimmydeanno]

Sorry, couldn't find M-14 replicas...but www.paradestore.com has Springfield 1903s and M-1 replicas...

[Stonewall]

You do realize that the M-14 weighs in at almost 10 lbs, right?  As someone who carried an M-14 for 2 years in the Army's Old Guard, I can tell you that thing gets pretty dern heavy standing there at right shoulder or of course, holding it at present arms.

I wouldn't waste your money on a rifle a 4 1/2 ft cadet weighing in at 90 lbs can't even pick up, let alone throw the thing up to his/her shoulder.

[L Cid]

You do realize that the M-14 weighs in at almost 10 lbs, right?  As someone who carried an M-14 for 2 years in the Army's Old Guard, I can tell you that thing gets pretty dern heavy standing there at right shoulder or of course, holding it at present arms.

I wouldn't waste your money on a rifle a 4 1/2 ft cadet weighing in at 90 lbs can't even pick up, let alone throw the thing up to his/her shoulder.

OK, a replica will do just fine.  Anyone know where we can find non-working replicas of M14 rifles?  We are not interested in Springfield rifles or M-1 Garands.....M14, thank you.  BTW, the Naval and Air Force Academies use M14s for their drill and parades.  Is there anyone here who has a connection with either Academy?  I have tried calling them and I get a runaround from the bookstore to the Cadet store to the armory and back again.  If you know exactly who to call, please leave that information here.  Thank you most sincerely.

[flyerthom]

I would like to purchase M14 drill rifles for our Color Guard unit.  Does anyone have a site or place where i can find and purchase M14 rifles?  Thanks for your response.

http://www.thekingofdeals.com/m14mirire.html

$99.00 each

Airsoft version:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=78655282

$ 129.00

[SJFedor]

I've found it pretty tough to find drill worthy M14s. However, talk to some of the american legions, VFWs, etc, some of them have armories for their "honor guards" and may have demil'ed rifles.

[addo1]

  Here it is.  Blank M14.
 http://www.packrat-toyz.com/Re-enactor%20Supplies/prop_guns.htm

Picture attached

[addo1]

They also have every accessory that you will ever want for your M14!
                         Phone:  713-884-1112
                 General Info: packrat-toyz@pdq.net

[smgilbert101]

You do realize that the M-14 weighs in at almost 10 lbs, right?  As someone who carried an M-14 for 2 years in the Army's Old Guard, I can tell you that thing gets pretty dern heavy standing there at right shoulder or of course, holding it at present arms.

Another Old Guardsman..which company?

I was 1st Platoon Echo Company (The real Honor Guard    )

[Stonewall]

You do realize that the M-14 weighs in at almost 10 lbs, right?  As someone who carried an M-14 for 2 years in the Army's Old Guard, I can tell you that thing gets pretty dern heavy standing there at right shoulder or of course, holding it at present arms.

Another Old Guardsman..which company?

I was 1st Platoon Echo Company (The real Honor Guard    )

The guy in the picture below isn't you is it?  His name is Gilbert and we both ended up in the same Army National Guard Company after active duty. He was from E Co. I was from D Co., 1st Plt.  I was there from '92 to '94.  I was selected to go to the Pentagon for the SECDEF detail during my last year in.  Got out in '95 then went into the Army Guard.

[smgilbert101]

The guy in the picture below isn't you is it?  His name is Gilbert and we both ended up in the same Army National Guard Company after active duty. He was from E Co. I was from D Co., 1st Plt.  I was there from '92 to '94.  I was selected to go to the Pentagon for the SECDEF detail during my last year in.  Got out in '95 then went into the Army Guard.

Awww...  Delta Dawgs wasn't it?  Nope, I left the Old Guard for the 101st Airborne back in 1982.  I told my Lt. that I wanted to be a "real" infantryman (he later became an Old Guard commander).  The funny thing is that I got to know him alot better 20 years later and he still remembered the conversation.  My desert camos (MFO duty in egypt) were the older 5 color.

Did you ever get sent to find the key to Blackjack field when you were a newby?

I know what you mean about the M-14's weight, I used to h-a-t-e rifle PT.  My hand used to cramp up something fierce when I first got there.  After I few weeks, we had grips that were strong enough to crush someone elses hand.

And yup, I'm an old fart...my Mitchell is 1585 

[Stonewall]

Okay, is that your son?   

I have a SGT at my police department that's a retired 1SG who spent all of his career at either Ranger Regiment or Ranger School, except for a 3 year stint at the Old Guard in early 1980s.  Know of a Jimmy Owens?

You know the Old Guard has deployed at least one company constantly since 9/11?  There are Old Guard combat patches these days.

As a member of Delta Dawgs, in two years, I spent 3 weeks in Panama (JOTC), 1 rotation at JRTC in Arkansas, then 2 at JRTC in Louisiana, 2 three week rotations at NTC in California, a couple trips to Ft. Bragg, and of course, tons of time at Ft. AP Hill.  I got there the same day Col. Hunt got there, the Commander of 3rd Ranger BN who jumped into Panama.  At an address to the Old Guard, he said he would make us Infantryman again, and he certainly tried.  I definately spent more time in BDUs than blues. 

The SECDEF detail I went on at the Pentagon was a joint service gig where we stood outside the SECDEF's office in blues with an M9.  Totally ceremonial (for looks), but we had some added perks like training and getting to take part of some cool stuff.

But yeah, I enjoyed my time there and since I didn't get enough time in the field I went into the Army Guard, still as Infantry and got deployed in '97 for 9 months to Bosnia. 

[smgilbert101]

Okay, is that your son?   

Uhhhhh...ummmm, not that I know of....uhhh ummmm    I can think of many great evenings in Georgetown but that's a different thread...   :angel:

I went through JOTC in '83 and spent quite a bit of time in Central America and an MFO stint in Egypt. Like you, I've spent my fair share of time at A.P. Hill battling the ticks and timber rattlers.

Off and on I've kept my eye on my old regiment and have only heard great things. 

[addo1]

  L Cid,
    Did you ever find out if those M14's on that site are what you are exactly looking for???

[smgilbert101]

They look like they'd fit the bill for a Color Guard.  Be careful about using these replicas for a drill team.  Drill teams are hard on rifles and they'd probably get broken fairly quickly.  Drill teams members frequently drop their rifles when they are learning how to spin them.  Just doing manual of arms, I cracked a few wooden stocks on the real M-14's.  Do I get an amen from Stonewall?

I would suggest some of the Airsoft replica rifles for your Color Guard, but they are capable of firing plastic BB's so they are probably not allowed in CAP.  Having seen the Airsoft M-14's first hand, I can tell you that they definitely would not withstand the wear and tear required for a drill team.

For those of you who do not now what an "Old Guardsman" is, it is the United States Army Honor Guard.  The US Army Honor Guard is also known as the 1st Battalion, 3rd US Infantry (The Old Guard).  Some of the more known teams include the US Army Drill Team and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldiers.

[addo1]

  These are actually made for the wear and tear of movie actors, so I think these M14's would hold up fine!! Also, this company sells to drill teams often.

[L Cid]

Is anyone familiar with using AirSoft rifles for drill or color guard?  Can a CAP Cadet Squadron use AirSoft rifles?  Some of these airsoft rifles are beautiful.  For example:
http://www.vietnamwar-guns.com/shop/product_catalog.php?c=27  and

Thanks for all constructive advice.

V/R

[MIKE]

I wouldn't... The cadets would be too tempted to play with them, and they would have to be rendered inert for use.  Otherwise they would not be permissible.

1-4. c. Weapons. There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any device that could be used as a weapon at any cadet activity. The only exceptions to this policy are:
(1) Deactivated Firearms. Cadets may use facsimile or deactivated firearms only as part of an honor guard or color guard. A deactivated firearm is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the firing of a weapon. A facsimile is a copy that is not capable of firing ammunition. ...

For my money the Mrk. 1s or the M-1 from paradestore.com are perfectly acceptable for cadet purposes.

[addo1]

Is anyone familiar with using AirSoft rifles for drill or color guard?  Can a CAP Cadet Squadron use AirSoft rifles?  Some of these airsoft rifles are beautiful.  For example:
http://www.vietnamwar-guns.com/shop/product_catalog.php?c=27  and

Thanks for all constructive advice.

V/R

I agree with smgilbert101.  They have many airsoft editions which look really neat, but I think they are not very sturdy and they might cause problems.  I think I might know of another website with M14 Drill rifles, but I will have to check!

[ladyreferee]

Airsoft anything these days has nice big orange tips.  When the tips are taken off, you get in trouble with not only the manufacturer for altering the gun, but also your local policeman who lives next door and sees you playing in the backyard with it.  But they sure are fun!  We have a whole neighborhood arsenal at our house....

[MIKE]

They can really sting when you get shot in the [FPoC] on full-auto. 

[addo1]

Theyt can really sting when you get shot in the [FPoC] on full-auto. 

Oh, yeah!! Had a few too many experiences....

[MIKE]

Paint balls hurt more though... and leave welts.

[addo1]

Paint balls hurt more though... and leave welts.

Never actually played paintball... I can only imagine!!!

[L Cid]

I agree with smgilbert101.  They have many airsoft editions which look really neat, but I think they are not very sturdy and they might cause problems.  I think I might know of another website with M14 Drill rifles, but I will have to check!

I'm looking forward to your checking on that site.  Any chance you found it by now?
Thanks!

Tags - MIKE

[addo1]

  Strange, I can't find it anywhere     But, I am still looking.

[floridacyclist]

Shame I've never seen an M-16 drill rifle. I learned the manual of arms with it and somehow I doubt you'd get much argument from the cadets either LOL

[addo1]

I agree with smgilbert101.  They have many airsoft editions which look really neat, but I think they are not very sturdy and they might cause problems.  I think I might know of another website with M14 Drill rifles, but I will have to check!

I'm looking forward to your checking on that site.  Any chance you found it by now?
Thanks!

Tags - MIKE

That site went out of buisness just a couple of days ago.    Sorry!

[NIN]

My AEO is an AF JROTC instructor, too, and he donated two brand new Drill America rifles to the squadron for the color guard:

http://www.glendale.com/detail.aspx?ID=415

They're sweet, but we use our "old" drill rifles for practice training and then transition to the heaver M-1-style rifles for the folks who are actually participating on the color guard. 

(You learn the moves on the lighter rifles, then move to the 8lb monsters!)

[Major Lord]

It looks a little "plasticky" does it look like a real firearm or more like those "Davy Crockett" cap guns they represent as springfields?

Major Lord

[baronet68]

1-4. c. Weapons. There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any device that could be used as a weapon at any cadet activity. The only exceptions to this policy are:
(1) Deactivated Firearms. Cadets may use facsimile or deactivated firearms only as part of an honor guard or color guard. A deactivated firearm is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the firing of a weapon. A facsimile is a copy that is not capable of firing ammunition. ...

So, would this mean that you could use firearms to do grass drills during color guard practice?

[DHollywood]

Airsoft anything these days has nice big orange tips.  When the tips are taken off, you get in trouble with not only the manufacturer for altering the gun, but also your local policeman who lives next door and sees you playing in the backyard with it.  But they sure are fun!  We have a whole neighborhood arsenal at our house....

Actually the ONLY law requireing the orange tip applies to the sale of the airsoft rifle.

There is no law that prohibits the removal

of the orange tip.  Perhaps a local regulation might purport to do so, but it would not pass constitutional muster.

I participate in several very large scale national military simulation events each year (upwards of 600 people) and none of us have orange tips.   

A realistic looking M14 airsoft rifle with wood furniture would cost no less than about $500, probably even more.  Drill replicas are much less expensive.  And when that cadet drops that $500 airsoft rifle its done. 

IMHAO

[Major Lord]

Lt. Thorpe is a little off base when it comes to Kalifornia: Here is the law:

12553.  (a) (1) Any person who changes, alters, removes, or
obliterates any coloration or markings that are required by any
applicable state or federal law or regulation, for any imitation
firearm, or device described in subdivision (c) of Section 12555, in
any way that makes the imitation firearm or device look more like a
firearm is guilty of a misdemeanor.

Here is why we can do it as CAP but not as private citizens:

12555.  (a) Any person who, for commercial purposes, purchases,
sells, manufactures, ships, transports, distributes, or receives, by
mail order or in any other manner, an imitation firearm except as
authorized by this section shall be liable for a civil fine in an
action brought by the city attorney or the district attorney of not
more than ten thousand dollars ($10,000) for each violation.
   (b) The manufacture, purchase, sale, shipping, transport,
distribution, or receipt, by mail or in any other manner, of
imitation firearms is authorized if the device is manufactured,
purchased, sold, shipped, transported, distributed, or received for
any of the following purposes:
   (1) Solely for export in interstate or foreign commerce.
   (2) Solely for lawful use in theatrical productions, including
motion picture, television, and stage productions.
   (3) For use in a certified or regulated sporting event or
competition.
   (4) For use in military or civil defense activities, or ceremonial
activities.

Most States have a similar statute and there may be some recent Federal Laws on this as well.

Major Lord

[NIN]

It looks a little "plasticky" does it look like a real firearm or more like those "Davy Crockett" cap guns they represent as springfields?

Nah, they look nice.  They're glass-filled fiberglass stocks with metal accouterments.  Solid.  Not plastic-looking at all.  And heavy as all hell.

They make an upper receiver assembly for them that allows you to rack the action for inspection arms.

[Major Lord]

Excellent! I was thinking about building up a couple of AR-15's on dummy receivers, but I may give these a look-see first. The website said that you can order a returnable unit for inspection. They are a heck of a lot less expensive than building M-16 dummy guns. (although the dummy guns would look just like the real thing)

Major Lord

[NIN]

Excellent! I was thinking about building up a couple of AR-15's on dummy receivers, but I may give these a look-see first. The website said that you can order a returnable unit for inspection. They are a heck of a lot less expensive than building M-16 dummy guns. (although the dummy guns would look just like the real thing)

Yeah, I thought about writing to Colt and seeing if we could get a couple "reject" lower receivers (ie. the machining was goofed so they couldn't put any guts into it, like trigger, safety, sear, hammer, etc) and then building up the uppers with a couple shot-out barrels.   Too expensive.

My cadets know the rule: you drop one of these babies, you get down with it.

(Top tip: buy a couple rifle cases for them. They're nice enough you want to protect the furniture)

[Flying Pig]

My cadets know the rule: you drop one of these babies, you get down with it.


Believe it or not, when I was in the Marines (Infantry), I got two weeks restriction to the barracks and suspension of promotion to Sgt for 6 months for making a Marine do 20 push ups for dropping his rifle.  And Im not leaving anything out of the story!  The C.O. said I should have made the Marine write an essay on the issues with dropping a rifle.

That was just after that video came out in the late 90's of the Marines getting their Gold Wings punched into their chest.

Im personally all for following your weapon though......Whats worse is that guy who did the pushups didnt care, it was  a bystander from a totally different unit who made the complaint.  The guy who did the push ups actually spoke on my behalf.  Anyway....enough on that tanget.

To quote Gen Chesty Puller....Your not a Marine until youve been NJP'd   (Non Judicial Punishment)

[Major Lord]

You can buy "80%"receivers and just not drill out all the holes you would need to to make it a fully operational weapon. My plan is to not drill any holes except the cross pins and and the buffer tube and glue the controls (trigger, safety/selector) with JB weld. There were complete GI M-16 parts sets avaiable for as low as 250.00 in good shape as of last year.

Major Lord

[DHollywood]

Lt. Thorpe is a little off base when it comes to Kalifornia: Here is the law:

12553.  (a) (1) Any person who changes, alters, removes, or
obliterates any coloration or markings that are required by any
applicable state or federal law or regulation, for any imitation
firearm, or device described in subdivision (c) of Section 12555, in
any way that makes the imitation firearm or device look more like a
firearm is guilty of a misdemeanor.

Here is why we can do it as CAP but not as private citizens:

12555.  (a) Any person who, for commercial purposes, purchases,
sells, manufactures, ships, transports, distributes, or receives, by
mail order or in any other manner, an imitation firearm except as
authorized by this section shall be liable for a civil fine in an
action brought by the city attorney or the district attorney of not
more than ten thousand dollars ($10,000) for each violation.
   (b) The manufacture, purchase, sale, shipping, transport,
distribution, or receipt, by mail or in any other manner, of
imitation firearms is authorized if the device is manufactured,
purchased, sold, shipped, transported, distributed, or received for
any of the following purposes:
   (1) Solely for export in interstate or foreign commerce.
   (2) Solely for lawful use in theatrical productions, including
motion picture, television, and stage productions.
   (3) For use in a certified or regulated sporting event or
competition.
   (4) For use in military or civil defense activities, or ceremonial
activities.

Most States have a similar statute and there may be some recent Federal Laws on this as well.

Major Lord

Would you mind providing the entire citation for whichever code that is?

Commifornia does tend to push the constitutional limits of federally occupied regulatory areas for sure.

As for the airsoft events where we all remove those silly orange tips:

2) Solely for lawful use in theatrical productions, including
motion picture, television, and stage productions.
3) For use in a certified or regulated sporting event or
competition.

Airsoft milsim events are both in fact.

A closer analysis of the code you cite reveals that the code does not itself create a requirement for the orange tip, it merely creates a state offense for a federally required orange tip.

A good lawyer can fit nearly any scenario into any of these exemptions.

A bad lawyer wrote that code.

[Major Lord]

Well, as you can imagine it is quite a big code. It starts with 12020 California Penal Code, but I don't think I want to paste 20 million words here! You can find all of CA's blackletter law @: www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html

I will see if I can find the Federal Law on orange tips. By the way, it is also illegal to have a real firearm colored orange in California..We can lawfully alllow cadets access to real firearms, just not toys with no orange tip.Go figure.

Major Lord

[DHollywood]

Actually I just needed to know what code you were citing - the Cal. Penal. Code.  Answers my question and I can toss that into Westlaw to see what courts have done with it.

The federal law is 15 USC 5001.

Interesting that the code contains federal occupying language:

(g) Preemption of State or local laws or ordinances; exceptions

The provisions of this section shall supersede any provision of State or local laws or ordinances which provide for markings or identification inconsistent with provisions of this section provided that no State shall—

(i) prohibit the sale or manufacture of any look-alike, nonfiring, collector replica of an antique firearm developed prior to 1898, or

(ii) prohibit the sale (other than prohibiting the sale to minors) of traditional B–B, paint ball, or pellet-firing air guns that expel a projectile through the force of air pressure.

The federal requirements prohibit the manufacture, entering into commerce, shipping, transporting, or receiving of the class of replicas stated without the blaze orange tip.

No where does the federal law bar possession without the orange tip.  Once the end user has the replica and it is no longer in the stream of commerce, the orange tip may be lawfully removed.

Sure, some local authorities claim to have some regulation that requires the orange tip, however aside from the exclusions available for sporting and theatrical productions, the local regulation would most likely be found violative of the constitution if it added terms and requirements to the federal law.

Not that I would encourage anyone to commit civil disobedience on the issue, but for myself I have no orange tip and travel to California several times a year for milsim events with no worries. 

A LEO probably would think the Code commands the orange tip be present at all times, but it simply defers to federal requirements which only command the orance tip during the period of time the replica is in the stream of commerce.

States may never expand on any commerce clause regulation by the feds.

Motion to dismiss granted.

[Major Lord]

"A bad lawyer wrote that code."

As opposed to the "good" kind?

Major Lord

Its 99% of Attorneys who give the others a bad name!

[Major Lord]

I ordered and received my Glendales' Garand Parade rifles. I suppose they would be fine for twirling around as toys, and they are marginally better than the "Davy Crockett cap gun" drill rifles out there, but I am a little disappointed. One would think that to Guard the National Colors, a rifle that at least looks like wood and metal would be desirable. (or plastic for an M-16) You could not even butt-stroke a hippie trying to burn old Glory with a plastic toy like this. I guess they will do for now.

Major Lord

[NIN]

I ordered and received my Glendales' Garand Parade rifles. I suppose they would be fine for twirling around as toys, and they are marginally better than the "Davy Crockett cap gun" drill rifles out there, but I am a little disappointed. One would think that to Guard the National Colors, a rifle that at least looks like wood and metal would be desirable. (or plastic for an M-16) You could not even butt-stroke a hippie trying to burn old Glory with a plastic toy like this. I guess they will do for now.

You got the same ones originally pictured?  (EDIT: These rifles? http://www.paradestore.com/detail.aspx?ID=415)

And you don't like 'em?

Hmmm, I guess I've been lulled for too many years by the "cheap wood and stamped steel parade rifles" that I found these to be fantastic rifles by comparison.  Certainly not the "real deal," but way, way better than the usual imitation.

[Major Lord]

Yes, those are the rifles. They are better than the flat-sawed planks that are out there, but they just are not  "weapons grade".  Maybe I can get some real dewatted Garands, but is would be a [darn] shame to weld up a working Garand to make neutered drill piece ( it might even be a sin, chaplains? Marines?) What this country need is a good M-16 HG rifle!

Major Lord

[NIN]

Yes, those are the rifles. They are better than the flat-sawed planks that are out there, but they just are not  "weapons grade".  Maybe I can get some real dewatted Garands, but is would be a [darn] shame to weld up a working Garand to make neutered drill piece ( it might even be a sin, chaplains? Marines?) What this country need is a good M-16 HG rifle!

Hmmm. Having drilled with an M-16, and done color guard with one, and also done color guard with an M-1, I think the M-1 is a much better "performance" rifle from a size & look standpoint.  The M-16 is all plastic and crap. Ugh.

Hauling a loaded M-1 around for a firing detail is a little, uh, "tiring," but it sure makes a nice *bark*...

Bummer that the Drill Americas are not what you expected.  Now I feel a little responsible for recommending them... 

[Major Lord]

I don't hold you responsible, not to worry!

I an ideal world, we would have an Honor/Color Guard rifle that looked like a rifle, and preferably, could even fire blanks ( you know, for salutes and mock executions of prisoners...) But I suspect that it would be pretty expensive to produce a good one. I know that they make good quality blank firing guns, but I have never seen anything except a lever action rifle . These Toy Garands will do for now, until we find the perfect rifle!

Major Lord

[Falshrmjgr]

I joined the Rifle Drill Team in my AFJROTC squadron when I was 13 years old.   Demilitarized M1 Garands with lead in the barrel.  Heavy?  Heck yes, but it makes you focus on performing drill correctly.  After four years, it didn't seem like anything.  Rifle exchanges, simple, complex spins, manual of arms;  all superior when performed with demil'd rifles.  My senior year the Old Guard did a performance near by, and we got to work with them for about 2 hours.  I thought their M14's felt light, and 2 of us were encouraged to apply for the Old Guard.  (There was not single move that they performed that any junior or senior on my team couldn't perform, although the bayonets took a few minutes to get used to.)   Look at the Old Guard, the USMC Silent Drill Team, the A&M Fish Drill Team.  That's the standard.  Don't adopt anything that won't let you get there.

We used to compete against squadrons who used the toy rifles, and frankly there was no comparison.  The light weight of the toys leads to tacky dance moves because you can toss them around like nothing.  Not only that, but the sound isn't right.

Lastly, there is a certain solemnity that comes with having actual weapons.  I must have done every Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, Parade, and/or Veteran's event there was for four years, whether as a Drill Team Member or Color Guard.  I would have been embarrassed to carry the toy rifles, regardless of how "good" they looked.  If it takes tired arms at the end of the day to pay respect properly, I'll pick it every time.

IMHO, demilitarized rifles are the only proper choice for an organization such as CAP.  Save the toys for the Marching Bands.

(Oh, and just for the record, M-16's are gawd-awfull due to the pistol grip.)

[baronet68]

IMHO, demilitarized rifles are the only proper choice for an organization such as CAP.  Save the toys for the Marching Bands.

Real rifles do tend to look really nice.  Our Color Guard uses two of my own 'temporarily' demilitarized Swiss K-31 rifles - originally purchased about 2 years ago for only $69 each.  Sadly, they have appreciated quite a bit since then and typically go for about $190 each today.

[Major Lord]

Falshrmjgr said that very eloquently! Baronet, Like you, we have been using surplus rifles that have been refinished and had the firing pins ground off, and the side folding Bayonets removed and the mount point ground down. Mosin Nagant model 44 carbines. Other than the straight bolt handle, the look a lot like mini-Springfields. I have felt a little guilty about using commie rifles, but the local Big 5 sold them to me for 49.00 each.

Major Lord

[NIN]

(snip)
IMHO, demilitarized rifles are the only proper choice for an organization such as CAP.  Save the toys for the Marching Bands.

(Oh, and just for the record, M-16's are gawd-awfull due to the pistol grip.)

Agree with that!  Ugh.  The M-16's rifle drill is just.. ugly...

While I'd love to get a couple of the ceremonial rifles (they give 'em to VFW & Legion posts, why not CAP?), obtaining a good de-mill'd rifle is generally not inexpensive. 

I will say this: those "Drill America" rifles are very solid, they're not cheaply made, and they're not light.  I've only carried a Garand for ceremonial purposes twice, but they seem to be "right in the ballpark."  If you're looking for a good "non-weapon weapon" choice, I still think they're it.

[baronet68]

...Mosin Nagant model 44 carbines. Other than the straight bolt handle, the look a lot like mini-Springfields. I have felt a little guilty about using commie rifles...

Major Lord

No need to feel guilty at all.  The Soviet Union was part of the Allies back when the Model 44 was adopted.   

[Tubacap]

Question for the masses.  Has anyone approached the VFW, Legion, Airborne, or anyone else who gets free rifles and asked for donations to the local squadrons?  If so how did you approach it, and what was the response?

[floridacyclist]

I found two links that some may find interesting or useful

http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/m1garand.htm

http://tri.army.mil/logistics/LE/LC-LEAD.htm

I'd be curious to hear anything back on those.

[NIN]

Question for the masses.  Has anyone approached the VFW, Legion, Airborne, or anyone else who gets free rifles and asked for donations to the local squadrons?  If so how did you approach it, and what was the response?

The problem is, those rifles belonging to the Legion, VFW, etc, belong to the Ceremonial Rifle Program and are really just on loan (its more or less a permanent loan) to those organizations.  They are not permitted to transfer those weapons to a 3rd party w/o the DoD's consent.


EDIT: http://www.tacom.army.mil/ceremonial_rifle/veterans.htm

We tried some years back, but the sticking point for us was a place to secure the weapons.  And then they said "We don't give rifles to CAP.."

[Tubacap]

I checked with the Army today, and US law is apparently strict enough that they can't even donate the rifles to the active Duty folks for ceremonial work, it is strictly LE and Veterans recognized veterans organizations.

[MIKE]

What about a possible Civilian Marksmanship Program angle?  Get CAP recognized through that via the existing NRA qualification standards or something?

Cadet A:  "How did you get that cool bling?"
Cadet B:  "I qualified on an M1... My squadron has eight of 'em and we shoot quarterly as a squadron activity."

[floridacyclist]

That was my first link above. They're not cheap, but possibly doable via a DDR grant or seperate CG/DT fundraiser.

[JayT]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=F9wR5M4v8KM

The M16 can look good in drill.

[flyerthom]

I found the rifle you don't want

[baronet68]

 

My wife says she wants one!

[spaatzmom]

That was my first link above. They're not cheap, but possibly doable via a DDR grant or seperate CG/DT fundraiser.

I know this is a little late in posting, but there is a continued belief that DDR will fund things such as this.  They will not under any circumstances grant monies for squadron supplies.  There was a time when this was done, but it was greatly abused by many, leading to the complete revamping of what was available to squadrons.  Nothing (promotional items) will be provided to any function that has no direct connection to a DDR presentation at that function.  Sorry.

[AlaskanCadet]

Check out this site. I personally prefer the resin rifles, though I did wish the bolts would work on these!

http://www.packrat-toyz.com/Re-enactor%20Supplies/prop_guns.htm

Hope this helps!

[cap235629]

you can purchase demilled drill rifle from the army's cmp (M-1 with welded firing pin and barrel etc) for around $350 if you or someone you know meets the requirements (member of a veterans group is all you need and a copy of ddfm 214 showing rifle qualification meets "marksmanship" requirement)

here are the details
http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/m1garand.htm

and the order form
http://www.odcmp.com/Forms/1orderform.pdf