Minimum Age Increase

[Archer]

I remember so distinctly seeing this topic covered vehemently previously, but I've been hammering away at the search function with every alternate word combo--thesaurus in hand--and I can't find it. So I made this. If anyone can link me the droidsthread I am looking for, that would be great. If not, I guess it doesn'tshouldn't hurt to discuss it again; I want to hear everyone's thoughts on increasing the minimum age for cadets.

[lordmonar]

NO.  I want to lower them to 11 or 10 and finished with the fifth grade.

[Archer]

Are you trolling me, Master Sergeant? -_-

[NIN]

Are you trolling me, Master Sergeant? -_-

No, I think he's serious.

Wait, no, I know he's serious.

[lordmonar]

Are you trolling me, Master Sergeant? -_-

Why would I do that?

My reasoning is that we are competing against the BSA for our target audience.  We should match up our recruiting with theirs.
10 and the fifth grade (or at least 11 and the 6th grade) allows us to recruit by school year......we hit the schools in April-May, induct them in in June, get them to encampment that summer.

What are your reasoning for raising the age?  What age would you put it at?  What are the consequences of doing so?

[PA Guy]

I have had terrible luck with 11-12 year olds at encampment.  We send some home but the bigger problem is that they eat up huge amounts of TAC/staff time to the point it is a detriment to the older cadets.

In my wing the parents of every 12 y/o applicant gets a call from the Commandant of Cadets/Encampment Commander explaining what encampment is like and what the expectations are and let the parents make the decision. About half decide to wait another yr.

[lordmonar]

I have had terrible luck with 11-12 year olds at encampment.  We send some home but the bigger problem is that they eat up huge amounts of TAC/staff time to the point it is a detriment to the older cadets.

In my wing the parents of every 12 y/o applicant gets a call from the Commandant of Cadets/Encampment Commander explaining what encampment is like and what the expectations are and let the parents make the decision. About half decide to wait another yr.

That means your encampment is wrong........sorry for being so blunt....but that's the truth.
Our age limit of 12 has been in place for many years.......and if our encampment is too tough then we need to change it.

[Archer]

What are your reasoning for raising the age?  What age would you put it at?  What are the consequences of doing so?

I'm not explicitly for raising, lowering, or leaving it as it is yet; that's why I want to see everyone's viewpoints.

[PA Guy]

I have had terrible luck with 11-12 year olds at encampment.  We send some home but the bigger problem is that they eat up huge amounts of TAC/staff time to the point it is a detriment to the older cadets.

In my wing the parents of every 12 y/o applicant gets a call from the Commandant of Cadets/Encampment Commander explaining what encampment is like and what the expectations are and let the parents make the decision. About half decide to wait another yr.

That means your encampment is wrong........sorry for being so blunt....but that's the truth.
Our age limit of 12 has been in place for many years.......and if our encampment is too tough then we need to change it.

You know what they say about opinions, everybody has one.  Is your opinion based on encampment experience? Have you been to an encampment in recent memory? Sorry for being so blunt.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Other threads have discussed the squadron commanders should not promote if the cadet is not ready. They should not sign off on CAPF 31s for cadets (regardless of age) to go to encampment if they are not ready. The encampment staff should not have to have that conversation.

Thinking outside the box could we set the minimum age for joining to 11 (or 10) and for attending encampment at 12 (subject to some sort of waiver process based on grade and or other criteria, sign offs) The paradigm for 10 or 11 year old cadets would be prove to us you should be allowed to go.

As to my qualifications to have an opinion, see my signature block. One was as a cadet and one was as the Encampment Commander.

[PA Guy]

Other threads have discussed the squadron commanders should not promote if the cadet is not ready. They should not sign off on CAPF 31s for cadets (regardless of age) to go to encampment if they are not ready. The encampment staff should not have to have that conversation.

In my wing one of the biggest problems are sqdn commanders sending cadets to encampment who are unprepared or have probs we should know about.  A few examples this yr included a cadet with Aspergers that the sqdn CC knew about and the mother omitted from the application. The sqdn CC didn't think we needed to know that. In spite of frequent notices sqdn CCs allowed cadets to show up with new boots, some bought them on their way to encampment. Cadets that had no clue how to wear a uniform because they said they had worn it only once before.  Cadets who clearly couldn't meet the Curry PT or drill standard. Cadets that had special dietary requirements we didn't know about and the list goes on.

[coudano]

First of all, I think it is wrong to say we are in 'competition' with boy scouts.
BSA and CAP are separate and distinct niche markets.  It is not like we are losing recruits we would otherwise have, to them.
If anything, in my experience, we pick up a lot of ex boy scouts who are ready for something a little more regimented (when they get 'too old' for scouts).  And of course there are plenty of teens who do both.

The younger (smaller) the cadets are, it becomes very difficult to find them spec uniforms.

I have seen some maturity issues with extremely young cadets, both at encampment and at squadron.  Of course there have been others who have handled themselves well.  On the whole I'd say that is about a coin toss.

My target age for an ideal recruit is actually right at about the 13th birthday (but I don't need to change CAP's regs to pursue that general policy)

[lordmonar]

I have had terrible luck with 11-12 year olds at encampment.  We send some home but the bigger problem is that they eat up huge amounts of TAC/staff time to the point it is a detriment to the older cadets.

In my wing the parents of every 12 y/o applicant gets a call from the Commandant of Cadets/Encampment Commander explaining what encampment is like and what the expectations are and let the parents make the decision. About half decide to wait another yr.

That means your encampment is wrong........sorry for being so blunt....but that's the truth.
Our age limit of 12 has been in place for many years.......and if our encampment is too tough then we need to change it.

You know what they say about opinions, everybody has one.  Is your opinion based on encampment experience? Have you been to an encampment in recent memory? Sorry for being so blunt.

I put one on by my self a few years ago....but that is besides the point.  OUR target audience is youth 12-20.   If we are having trouble with 12 year olds at encampment.....then we either need to a) change encampment, b) change the time frame of when you go to encampment (which by the way...would change the encampment) c) change our entry age for CAP.

And yes I know what they say about opinions.....but I also know what the stated goals from National about CP are.  We need to get our cadets to encampment ASAP.  That comes directly from Ned Lee...when he was the volunteer CP Director and Curt.

So....our age limit is 12....and we need to get them to encampment.....ergo by using worst case planning we need to target our encampments to 12 year olds.

[lordmonar]

Other threads have discussed the squadron commanders should not promote if the cadet is not ready. They should not sign off on CAPF 31s for cadets (regardless of age) to go to encampment if they are not ready. The encampment staff should not have to have that conversation.

Okay....for just 2 seconds I will agree with your.  What is "ready" for encampment?  If I were a squadron CC....where do I find out those standards for "ready" for encampment?   The only criteria I see is "completed the Curry Achievement".

Again....I propose that we have a disconnect about what we "think" encampments should be and what our written CP program is telling our CP officers.

Thinking outside the box could we set the minimum age for joining to 11 (or 10) and for attending encampment at 12 (subject to some sort of waiver process based on grade and or other criteria, sign offs) The paradigm for 10 or 11 year old cadets would be prove to us you should be allowed to go.

As to my qualifications to have an opinion, see my signature block. One was as a cadet and one was as the Encampment Commander.

So it the "ready for encampment just age....or it there other criteria you are thinking about?  I ask this because you mention waivers already.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

I was essentially brainstorming. However the last sentence "The paradigm for 10 or 11 year old cadets would be prove to us you should be allowed to go." I think sums up the idea. If we let the 10 to 11 year old cadets join we change the thought from "they (10 to 11) should go to encampment immediately" to  "should they go to encampment?".

As far as standards for ready for encampment, I do agree there should be additional criteria. Is the Curry even enough? However, I think there is a subjective part of "are they ready".

[PA Guy]

A cadet is ready to attend encampment  on passing and demonstrating the skills required for  the Curry, not having it pencil whipped by a well meaning senior.  The sqdn CC must also decide if the cadet has the maturity to do well being away from home and functioning in a group environment with other cadets from meals to showers. Encampments expect cadets show up with a skill set established by passing the Curry.  They are expected to be mature enough to function without having to see the chaplain or TAC mult times a day or call home every day and the sqdn commander makes that decision when they sign the Form 31. This is no different than holding someone back on a review board.  Just as there are cadets that aren't ready to promote there are cadets that aren't ready to attend encampment. That is why my wing calls the parents of 11-12 year olds, based on past performance of many sqdn CCs who don't want to be the bad guy and prefer to make the encampment the  bad guy. 

Sorry, I forgot to add this reference:  CAPP 52-24 Part 1-1 para. f

Squadron commanders are encouraged to discuss the encampment environment with parents of their
cadets, especially parents of cadets under age 14. It is conceivable that some of the youngest and newest CAP
cadets will be best served if they attend encampment during their second cycle of eligibility.

[lordmonar]

But there's the crux......subjective or not.....you have to have some guidance to the squadrons....or you can't use the "I hate it when they send us kids who are not ready" argument.

The rest is just quality control in the CP in general not just as it applies to encampment.

On thing I have notices is that even though we changed the drill requirements for Curry.....Encampments still expect cadets to know a lot more drill then a Curry cadet may know.

[PA Guy]

But there's the crux......subjective or not.....you have to have some guidance to the squadrons....or you can't use the "I hate it when they send us kids who are not ready" argument.

The rest is just quality control in the CP in general not just as it applies to encampment.

On thing I have notices is that even though we changed the drill requirements for Curry.....Encampments still expect cadets to know a lot more drill then a Curry cadet may know.

I posted a reference to CAPP 52-24 that gives guidance to sqdn CCs. In my AOR sqdn CCs are briefed re: encampment expectations at least twice more during the yr.  Expectations are also outlined in CAPR 52-16 chap 9.

My wings encampment expects a cadet to be proficient in the drill standards required for the Curry. That is our starting point for teaching drill and then adding to that. In the first to second day a diagnostic drill assessment is done and then move on.  The encampment shouldn't need to start teaching such things as how to salute, facing movement or saluting.

[lordmonar]

PA Guy,

52-16 Chap 9 does not tell a squadron commander what the expect performance level of the attendee is beyond "Curry Achievement".

And neither does the Draft 52-24.

[ZigZag911]

Not sure I'm eager to have 10 year olds in CAP, but I suppose we could make it work...if we do go that route, I'd like to see requirements for encampment raised to 12 or 13 years old, with prior completion of Wright award.