Why so many homeschoolers?

[cadetesman]

Why are there so many homeschoolers in CAP?

It seems as if myself and the others that go to traditional school are in the minority. Anyone have statistics on this?

But really, anyone have any idea why?

Note: I have nothing against them, just curious.

[Extremepredjudice]

I guess cause most school kids go to JROTC

[lordmonar]

Homeschooler organisers are always looking for group acitivities for their students.

The group socialization has always been the one problem with homeschoolers.  So they look for good groups for their students to join where they get to work and play with other kids their age.

CAP is a good choice for that.

[PHall]

Many home school organizations recommend CAP as a socialization activity. Which is just one reason we seem to see so many home schooled cadets.

[jimmydeanno]

I've found that parents of home-schooled kids are looking for a few things:

1) Social Interaction
2) Something unique and relatively "low-cost."
3) Many home-school kids can get school credit for the course work found in CAP (i.e. PT counts towards a Physical Education Credit, Completing AE modules counts as a Science Credit, etc).
4) Free supplemental educational materials.

And the list goes on.  Home schooled students don't have the full array of options that public school students do, so CAP is a good fit.  YMMV.

[Extremepredjudice]

1) Social Interaction

I hate when people say this. I socialize more than public school kids. Sorry I don't have to deal with stupid high school drama.

[coudano]

1) Social Interaction

I hate when people say this. I socialize more than public school kids. Sorry I don't have to deal with stupid high school drama.

Stupid high school drama is how much of the adult world works.
Knowing how to navigate it is not a disadvantage

[lordmonar]

1) Social Interaction

I hate when people say this. I socialize more than public school kids. Sorry I don't have to deal with stupid high school drama.

Cool....but not all homeschoolers do.

[cadetesman]

All of this sounds reasonable....except relatively low cost.   

[a2capt]

CAP is actually listed as an option given to home schoolers at least  in California. Because they need to have extra-curicular activity, and the weekly meeting plus getting involved in other parts of the program provide opportunities for that interaction, plus the CAP Leadership and AE curriculum.

[Eclipse]

1) Social Interaction

I hate when people say this. I socialize more than public school kids. Sorry I don't have to deal with stupid high school drama.

Not possible.

Socialization is not socializing any more than worming from home would compare to a corporate environment.

There are 100 intersections a day which occur in social situations whore people have no choice but to adapt.
Self-selecting from that environment makes it more comfortable,  but does not force the use and growth of skills needed in these types of environments.

Like it or not, the norm in most of the world is organized, group education, and people who "go" to work.  That may change,  but it will be a decades-long evolution.

That doesn't make it "better" or "worse" just that it "is".

[jimmydeanno]

All of this sounds reasonable....except relatively low cost.   

Compared to many high-school activities CAP is about as cheap as they get.

My neighbor's daughter had to come up with about $3k to be able to dance line for the year (competition fees, uniform fees, travel expenses, etc).

YMCA camps can run in the thousands of dollars per week.

The football players in this area end up having to run massive fundraising campaigns to offset their personal expenses to play.

Even if CAP cost a few hundred dollars per year, it's still, most likely, the most inexpensive thing a lot of families can find - especially in terms of return on investment.

1) Social Interaction

I hate when people say this. I socialize more than public school kids. Sorry I don't have to deal with stupid high school drama.

It may be fine for you, but many home school families have difficulty finding a diverse range of activities that their kids can do with a group of same aged youth.  Many home schooled students I've had join my units have been extremely socially awkward, because they spent most of their time alone, only interacting with their own, socially awkward, families.

Children who are unable to interact socially usually are having these difficulties because they have not been given the opportunity to in the past.

Social interaction has to be one of the most important activities that your child can be involved in. It teaches them the rights and wrongs in their wider community, helps them to build relationships and teaches them how to cope in group situations.

[68w20]

1) Social Interaction

I hate when people say this. I socialize more than public school kids. Sorry I don't have to deal with stupid high school drama.

Not possible.

Eclipse, based on my prior experience as a home-schooled Cadet, I think I can guess where Extremeprejudice is coming from (please correct me if I'm wrong EP).  This is one of the most common arguments against homeschooling at all levels.  Legislation banning homeschooling has been based on this, as well as misguided ideas and misconceptions concerning the nature of homeschooling.  Both here and abroad (Germany, for example), homeschooling has had a negative connotation attached to it based on assumptions that all homeschoolers are social dwarfs, religious fundamentalists, or simply bad parents that don't want their children to have a "real" education.

The reason that the OP reacted so vehemently, and the reason that your comment is out of line, is that these misconceptions lead to legitimate problems in the day-to-day lives of homeschoolers.  Your post (and others like it, such as Lordmonar's assumption that "not all homeschoolers do that") perpetuates the stereotypes to which I previously referred, and could detrimentally effect the interactions of Cadet leadership that will read it in a public forum. 

Socialization is not socializing any more than worming from home would compare to a corporate environment.

There are 100 intersections a day which occur in social situations whore people have no choice but to adapt.
Self-selecting from that environment makes it more comfortable,  but does not force the use and growth of skills needed in these types of environments.

What you're saying is true, however it's ridiculous to assume that homeschoolers do not seek out similar environments through which their students can achieve the same social experiences.  In addition, repeated social interaction does NOT in and of itself make one social adept.  It is essential in providing the mental "muscle memory" necessary to have meaningful social interaction, but the act itself is not the defining factor.  Socialization hasn't been a part of educational or even social theory for many years, so to assume that a group setting is THE factor necessary to making one socially adept is completely without scholarly foundation.   

Like it or not, the norm in most of the world is organized, group education, and people who "go" to work.  That may change,  but it will be a decades-long evolution.

That doesn't make it the most effective.  Just because everybody's doing it doesn't mean it's the right way.  Why was Alexander individually tutored by Aristotle?  And what about the founding fathers that were self-taught?

That doesn't make it "better" or "worse" just that it "is".

Valid.

One last point:
The posts in this thread have one overarching theme: that homeschoolers join CAP in order to socialize with others.  This is not the ONLY reason that homeschoolers join this program.  I joined because I was interested in the military (the same reason as my current C/CC who attended a private school) and looking for something to help pay for college.  One of my current homeschooling Cadets joined because she wants to be a pilot, and this program will help her to that end. 

The idea that all or even many homeschoolers have difficulty in finding social interactions for their students is absurd, and based on the assumption that anything not fitting the norm MUST be detrimental to all involved. 

[titanII]

I guess cause most school kids go to JROTC

At least where I'm from (it is probably different elsewhere), this isn't exactly true. I don't know of any schools in my area that offer any of the JROTC's. Heck, I'd never even heard of JROTC until I joined CAP Talk.

Sorry I don't have to deal with stupid high school drama.

I have never seen this "drama" you're talking about at my school. Granted, I do go to an all-guys private school, so it's a bit different 

[John Bryan]

1. Social Interaction - Not all kids are social butterflies...this goes for home school, public and private school. There are awkward kids everywhere. I don't think kids who don't go to school but attend church , CAP, 4H , work a part time job etc are any more or less social then those who do all that and go to school. If public school was always 100% great a socialization I don't think we would have the school violence and bullying issues we see across the country.

2. The SAT and ACT scores show it.....the number of cadets where I am from who are home schooled and starting college at 15 or 16 show....home school is as good or better then public school most of the time. Yes there are cases of kids being home schooled and not being taught but there are as many stories from failing public schools.

3. Home school community welcomes CAP. Many public schools don't. Some do not because they do not like the military. Others are so busy trying to get all the kids to pass standard tests that they don't have time for extra programs.

4. We should look at why do youth join CAP. I think we would see they join for many of the same reasons, no matter where they go to school.

[Nathan]

Eclipse, based on my prior experience as a home-schooled Cadet, I think I can guess where Extremeprejudice is coming from (please correct me if I'm wrong EP).  This is one of the most common arguments against homeschooling at all levels.  Legislation banning homeschooling has been based on this, as well as misguided ideas and misconceptions concerning the nature of homeschooling.  Both here and abroad (Germany, for example), homeschooling has had a negative connotation attached to it based on assumptions that all homeschoolers are social dwarfs, religious fundamentalists, or simply bad parents that don't want their children to have a "real" education.

The reason that the OP reacted so vehemently, and the reason that your comment is out of line, is that these misconceptions lead to legitimate problems in the day-to-day lives of homeschoolers.  Your post (and others like it, such as Lordmonar's assumption that "not all homeschoolers do that") perpetuates the stereotypes to which I previously referred, and could detrimentally effect the interactions of Cadet leadership that will read it in a public forum.

Eh, I think that's taking it a little far. I don't think that anyone here is intending to downright insult homeschooled cadets or perpetuate any stereotypes.

But I also think that, even if we were, the point isn't necessarily off the table for debate. In this case, it's not a completely unfounded stereotype, nor is the proposed mechanism out in left field. The notion that children are at higher risk of not being up-to-date socially is supported by studies. It's important to note that when I say "higher risk", it means exactly that. There will be many children who are socialized fine due to opportunities provided by the family for outside interaction, but compared to the regularly-schooled population, there are higher percentages of children with social difficulties in adult life.

I can provide the links to the articles, though I'm not sure you can access them unless you can get a college subscription. Nevertheless, my point isn't to delve into whether or not homeschooling is okay. But the fact is that these viewpoints DO have a basis in reality, and in an organization that seems to attract homeschoolers, we have a pretty close seat to see these types of characteristics for ourselves.

Also, keep in mind that when someone makes the assertion that CAP helps homeschooled kids socialize, the fact that YOU, a homeschooled cadet, have socialized fine does not itself defeat the argument. It would simply be said that you are proof that the program works. In my own experience, many of our homeschooled cadets join CAP having rarely, if ever been forced to interact with other people they didn't necessarily like or obey an authority figure outside of their own parents. Students who have been forced to be around annoying classmates and teachers their entire lives do not lack these experiences.

What you're saying is true, however it's ridiculous to assume that homeschoolers do not seek out similar environments through which their students can achieve the same social experiences.  In addition, repeated social interaction does NOT in and of itself make one social adept.  It is essential in providing the mental "muscle memory" necessary to have meaningful social interaction, but the act itself is not the defining factor.  Socialization hasn't been a part of educational or even social theory for many years, so to assume that a group setting is THE factor necessary to making one socially adept is completely without scholarly foundation.

Actually, we're not assuming that homeschoolers don't look for socialized interaction. We just got done saying that CAP is one of the ways many homeschoolers do this. Even in "social situations" provided by parents, there are not necessarily going to be situations where the child has to play with a group of people he doesn't necessarily like. The kid probably hasn't had to obey anyone other than his parents. The kid hasn't necessarily had to realize that most learning isn't going to happen one-on-one, and has to be willing to absorb information without necessarily being able to ask a question and have someone work with him/her until the problem is solved.

You see what I mean? I don't believe (I haven't seen, personally) any zombie homeschoolers that show up with absolutely zero ability to interact with people. They can interact fine, but whereas regularly-schooled cadets have already had to deal with all of the above situations for years due to the school system, a homeschooler can, and in many cases does, miss even a few opportunities to interact in the ways described above. You're right that it isn't just muscle memory, but the parts that many homeschoolers don't pick up includes traits that are learned and perfected, rather than memorized.

That doesn't make it the most effective.  Just because everybody's doing it doesn't mean it's the right way.  Why was Alexander individually tutored by Aristotle?  And what about the founding fathers that were self-taught?

Well, see, that's the problem that we're saying is irrelevant to this conversation. CAP is largely a social organization that requires conformity to the norm. Whether or not it's the best way of doing things isn't what is being discussed. What's being asserted is that homeschoolers aren't necessarily prepared to deal as easily with that kind of an organization as are other students. Right or wrong, the environment is there, and so when we say that homeschoolers seem to be correlated with requiring a little bit more learning and experience to catch up with his or her peers socially, that's just a comparison, not a moral assertion.

The posts in this thread have one overarching theme: that homeschoolers join CAP in order to socialize with others.  This is not the ONLY reason that homeschoolers join this program.  I joined because I was interested in the military (the same reason as my current C/CC who attended a private school) and looking for something to help pay for college.  One of my current homeschooling Cadets joined because she wants to be a pilot, and this program will help her to that end. 

The idea that all or even many homeschoolers have difficulty in finding social interactions for their students is absurd, and based on the assumption that anything not fitting the norm MUST be detrimental to all involved.

I'm not really sure that anyone actually made the assertion that homeschoolers are primarily motivated by the desire to socialize. Jimmydeano even has it as a bullet on a list of reasons that homeschoolers join. Regularly-schooled children certainly join to socialize as well, but they also have many of these opportunities presented (and compelled) by the school system every single day of their lives. So when we list it as a significantly more important factor in the motivations behind many homeschool recruits, that's the only reason why.

And again, remember that many of the people contributing to this topic, myself included, have been working in the cadet programs for quite a long time. These trend never even crossed my mind until I became a cadet leader and noticed it myself (without the influence of any apparent stereotype). It's not a bad thing or a reason to treat homeschooled cadets any differently, nor is it a moral judgement passed on the homeschool system itself. It's simply a trend that leaders notice and tend to adapt for, so that we can ensure that every cadet, homeschooled or not, can get the most out of the program.

[Eclipse]

Here's the point about social interaction.

Some is voluntary, some is involuntary.

Formalized education (school), and most corporate work environments, not to mention most of life, are involuntary social environments.
You have little control over them or the other people involved, you cannot easily self-select out, and faux pas are generally "punished" either
directly or indirectly.

CAP, 4H, team sports, etc., are voluntary social situations, and for the most part opposite 180-off from the above, especially
in that you don't have to join, or you can quit  if somebody is "touching your stuff".

Far too many parents spend far too much time avoiding the involuntary and only pointing their kids at the places where they
are likely to excel with little interpersonal conflict, then when the "real" world hands them a reality sandwich, they have no
idea how to deal.  A lot of kids today are held together by tissue paper and rubber bands, folding at the first insinuation they
are not a beautiful or unique snowflake.

Involuntary social situations like formalized educational institutions force the interactions in a more Darwinian sense, just like the "real"
world will, whether mom and dad like it or not.

As to bullying, it's a real phenomenon, but I don't believe it is any more prevalent now than when I was school age, or my dad, or his dad.
The whole situation is primarily a product of media over-hype, and the "culture of cause", intersected by unnecessary, poorly understood
technology that should not be in the hands of children.  Seriously, 8 year olds need cell phones?

I also think is that today's parent's are fundamentally disconnected and more reliant on systems and outsiders to raise their kids, the result being
that they seek control wherever they can find it, even if that control is ultimately either trivial or detrimental to their child's development.

And with all that text, I'm not going to even try to insinuate that a lot of school systems are not just basically warehouses, and I know there is
a good argument in a lot of cases that home schooling is the only acceptable alternative, but I simply do not believe that a child
at home with mom and dad all day, who goes to outside activities in the evenings and weekends, will get the same socialization as
children who attend traditional schools and have to interact with peers all day.

[Spaceman3750]

A recent Pew Center study suggested that 1 in 5 teens are bullied.

I have only met one homeschooled person who was not socially awkward, and that was my little brother. I was homeschooled for 5 years and being socially awkward is still something I deal with today.

[Eclipse]

A recent Pew Center study suggested that 1 in 5 teens are bullied.

Part of that is in how you define bullying, which these days seems to include every time someone calls you "Mr. Poopy Pants".
Just as in the same sense that there are no peanuts on airplanes "in case", and every kid who has "issues" now has an
ASD, now much of normal kid behavior is "bullying".

And what the "culture of cause^®" seems to miss is that when you move the line and "everything is something", it actually
makes that "something" more "common", and engenders "cause fatigue^®" in the very people they are trying to educate,
ultimately to the disservice of those who really need help.

"culture of cause^®" and "cause fatigue^®" are registered trademarks of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium.  All Rights Reserved. Let eClipseco service all of your rhetoric and propaganda needs!

[Spaceman3750]

A recent Pew Center study suggested that 1 in 5 teens are bullied.

Part of that is in how you define bullying, which these days seems to include every time someone calls you "Mr. Poopy Pants".

Well, verbal bullying has proven to be a big, high-profile issue. Just look at the rash of teen suicides over the past few years due to cyber bullying.