Cadets in the Program "Just to Fly"

Started by Jolt, March 15, 2007, 04:30:44 PM

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DNall


flyguy06

Quote from: Jolt on March 15, 2007, 05:23:37 PM
Okay, okay... sorry.

I was just wondering if you thought it was important for all cadets to at least know all of the basic stuff you learn at encampments (a little bit about uniform wear, some customs and courtesies, some drill here and there).  I don't want every one of my cadets to go out and join a drill team and honor guard... I just want them to be able to do simple things like read grade insignia.

It seems as if some people join so that they can stay at C/AB the entire time and take the o-flights.  Should you be allowed to do that?

You cant do that? CAPM 52-16 says you HAVE to advance in grade and if you dont in a certain time period ( I think its three years) you can be terminated from CAP. SO you cant just stay at one rank like Senior Members can.

What folks have to realize is the the Cadet program is VERY different than the Senior Member program. The cadet proam IS a military program, the Senior member program not so much. Cadets have to participate in Drilll and Ceremonies, Physical Fitness and leadership training. Its required to progress in the program and its required as per CAPM 52-16.

Too many people try to comapare the wo programs and they are very different. Yes, A senior member can join and if all they want to do is ES then they can do that. A cadet is not in that situation.

And I do not believe that cadets HAVE to participate in ES to be active in CAP. The primary purpose of the cadet programis to build leaders in an aerospace environment. They are to be encoruaged to get into the aviation or aerospace field. Nothing in this mandate says anything about search and rescue. We ALLOW cadets too particiapte in ES. It is not mandatory


Cadets do have to participate in military drill and military leadership. If a cadet joins soley to fly or build time he is inthe wrong organization. A cadet can get his lisences all the way up to CFI in CAP, but if it were me, he or she would have to give to CAP in order to get from CAP

LTC_Gadget

As cap428 said, balance is key.  There are units that do nothing but drill, drill, drill and win competitions, of course.  But, as I've told cadets in the past, if the only unit that placed better than you is one that ignores the rest of the program and does only drill, I don't think they have a thing to be ashamed of.  There are three blades on the prop.  As someone else said, pay attention to 52-16; it's the bible for how to run things. If you're not with it, either in letter or in spirit/intent, then you're just flat wrong.

If all that a cadet, or senior member for that matter, wants to do is fly, I say send them on their way, and let 'em pay the going rate for the privilege of exercising their hobby.  We are tasked to do more than fly, and there are quite a few jobs that are necessary and important, and never touch an aircraft.  If you don't buy into the whole pkg, go where it's all about the flying - a flying club. 

I like to spend time in the right or back seat as much as anyone.  But I know that sometimes I'll have to mind a radio, or man a desk because the mission requires it.  I hate prima donnas, no matter what their skill.  When I was on wing staff years ago, and helping to run a SAREX, I actually had a guy show up wanting to get his CAPF5 ride so that he could fly that weekend.  I told him that we needed some trainees in some other slots that weekend.  He told me "Look, I'm just a a pilot, OK?"  Since he was a Lieutenant and I was a Capt I quoted him back to himself and said "That's 'Look, I'm just a pilot currently, SIR."  He looked at me for a second and got the idea.  I went on to tell him that if all the aircraft were currently on sorties, and all he could do was fly, then he wasn't much good to us at the moment, was he?  I also pointed out that subdued insignia on the flight suit wasn't authorized. He told me that's what came on it.  I repeated that it wasn't authorized, and neither were his brown cowboy boots.  He made a wise decision stop while he was behind, and not to argue from the position of weakness any more that weekend.  The Wing Ops Officer also made sure that the good Lieutenant got schooled in a couple of other mission slots that weekend so that he wasn't just a pilot.

You see, what some folks forget is that there's almost always plenty of people that show up at scheduled exercises and tests.  But when the phone rings at three AM on Wednesday, you could find that you have five people with which to execute a mission.. Hello multitasking and cross-functionalization.  I also participated in one mission where they didn't need us to fly, as Oklahoma Highway patrol was doing that, and they didn't need ground teams as as the guard, and Dept of Corrections was doing that.  They just wanted us to plan, coordinate, direct, organize, and help everyone else do their jobs as efficiently and non-wastefully as possible. In small units, and when called to real missions, we all have to be multi-talented and cross-functional.

V/R,
John Boyd, LtCol, CAP
Mitchell and Earhart unnumbered, yada, yada
The older I get, the more I learn.  The more I learn, the more I find left yet to learn.

LTC_Gadget

#23
I've already gotten one PM taking me to task for my actions. I knew what I meant, but hadn't anticipated all the 'alternate interpretations' of my 'issue.'

I'll reprise some of what I wrote that person privately. I thought I might save some of you the typing to do the same thing, and maybe avoid making some folks 'jack--hole' list if I posted part of my response publicly.  After all, unlike some other boards, I might actually run into some of you folks somewhere eventually, so yeah, I *do* kinda care what you think...  ;)

Actually, I had a far greater problem with his attitude about 'just being a pilot,' and not caring to learn or do anything else, and not caring about how (dis)courteously or inappropriately or emphatically he expressed it.  One should use plain human courtesy, at least.  He seemed annoyed that someone should even suggest there were other jobs that he could do to contribute. 

My father is a former Marine.  I grew up learning to say 'please' and 'thank you', 'sir' and ma'am, respecting my elders and my superiors (in rank or position), whether in or out of uniform.  It didn't kill me. I also grew up learning that I should never have to apologize for having manners.

And no, I'm not a party to that whole UCMJ discussion thread, either.  It won't work, and isn't appropriate for all the reasons stated there, so don't read *that* into me, either.. ;-) 

So, the major issue was his general attitude and demeanor, the fact that he didn't even care enough to wear his uniform correctly.  The courtesy thing was just the 'hook' to grab his attention with.  All those things, right at that particular moment, added together contributed to my response, and not necessarily any one issue.  On a different day, with different issues, now "several" years later, who knows how it might go down. 

My point was more about being cross-functional, being aware that there are several facets to our program, and that we can't take any of them to the exclusion of the others -- balance, etc, and not being a one-trick prima donna.,  My apologies for not expressing the focus more clearly to begin with. Hopefully, I've done a better job of clarifying it now.

Great topic.  Great board. Great people.

V/R,
John Boyd, LtCol, CAP
Mitchell and Earhart unnumbered, yada, yada
The older I get, the more I learn.  The more I learn, the more I find left yet to learn.

Jolt

I suppose I don't have anything wrong with people focusing on one aspect of the program so much as I have a problem with people coming into the program and taking things away from it without giving back.

If SM pilots come in just to fly for cheap (and I think I even read once a long while back that some paid their girlfriends' membership and got her a ball cap for a uniform so they could go flying together), then those are the people I have a problem with.  We have an example of a senior member that's in the program only to fly in our very own squadron, but I have no problem with that at all because he gives back to the program.  He only comes to the meetings every month for the safety briefing so that he's allowed to fly, but he's a CFI and he constantly volunteers his time to give lessons to our cadets.  One 17 year old cadet recently earned his private pilot's license under his tutelage and he was rated as the best CFI in the North East last year.

I think I can sum up my thoughts: CAP is a volunteer program, not a discount business.  If you want to take some of the benefits (what, cheap car rentals at Hertz or something?  CAP magazine?  Discount flights?), you have to volunteer and give something back.  I think the same should apply to cadets.  AE is a great reason to join, but they should do the customs and courtesies and drill and ceremonies the same way a cadet who joined for the military environment has to participate in the AE activities.

flyguy06

Cadets dont have the choice not to do the military customs and curteousies. If your cadets arent doing that, then they arent doing the cadet program properly.

I agree that you need to work for CAP to enjoy the benefits. Thats why I am against people that join CAP to be in the military flying club.

But one thing I'd like to point out. WHen I think of the AE mission of CAP, I dont think of flying. Thats aviation not aerospace.. WHen I think of aerospace, I think of NASA, model rocketry, going to visit a shuttle lanch or gooing to space camp or reading abut a satalite that was launch. Ther eis a difference between aerospace and aviation

DNall

Quote from: flyguy06 on March 24, 2007, 08:28:36 PM
You cant do that? CAPM 52-16 says you HAVE to advance in grade and if you dont in a certain time period ( I think its three years) you can be terminated from CAP.
Two achievments per year or you can be terminated.

Fifinella

Quote from: flyguy06 on March 25, 2007, 01:38:14 PM
But one thing I'd like to point out. WHen I think of the AE mission of CAP, I dont think of flying. Thats aviation not aerospace.. WHen I think of aerospace, I think of NASA, model rocketry, going to visit a shuttle lanch or gooing to space camp or reading abut a satalite that was launch. Ther eis a difference between aerospace and aviation
Fair enough.  You're certainly entitled to your opinion.  But when the Air Force started using the term "aerospace" it was to include space, not exclude aviation. [yes, I know we're not the US Air Force.  Just citing one example.]  I think we should be introducing cadets to the entire spectrum, whatever you choose to call it.
Judy LaValley, Maj, CAP
Asst. DCP, LAWG
SWR-LA-001
GRW #2753

A.Member

Quote from: flyguy06 on March 25, 2007, 01:38:14 PM
But one thing I'd like to point out. WHen I think of the AE mission of CAP, I dont think of flying. Thats aviation not aerospace.. WHen I think of aerospace, I think of NASA, model rocketry, going to visit a shuttle lanch or gooing to space camp or reading abut a satalite that was launch. Ther eis a difference between aerospace and aviation
Yes, there is a difference - aviation is a subset of aerospace.  As such, there is much more to AE than what you've listed and aviation/flying is most definitely a critical component. 

Just to help you out a bit - from P15 (AEO Handbook) (my emphasis added):
QuoteAerospace Education is defined as that branch of general education concerned with communicating knowledge, skills, and attitudes about aerospace activities and the total impact of air and space vehicles upon society.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."