Alaska C-172S crash into buildings (fatal)

[Chappie]

We (CAP members) can't control what the media reports but we can certainly watch our statements. Let's keep our Core Values in mind when posting remarks regarding this tragic event.

[Chappie]

I'm kind of ashamed I got to say this on this forum.

Guys.

CAP Talk is an unofficial CAP forum.

Each and everyone of use can be quoted by a news agency as a "Civil Air Patrol Official".    And so just like we all learned in OPSEC training and GES training we should refrain from commenting unless specifically cleared by the PAO or Commander.

Ergo....let's not even link and add comments to this topic.

Blue Skies to the friends and family of the CAP member.   Good luck to the investigative team.

Nothing more needs to be said.

^^^ Concur.   Rather than discussing speculation or news reports, we should be looking for opportunities to be aid, comfort, counsel to those in our membership who are feeling the affects of this event.

[Storm Chaser]

I've read a couple sites that suggest the aircraft was "stolen."

Ah... media. 

Never thought I'd be defending a media assumption, but in general, "unauthorized use" = "stolen". While the nuances may differ, for the public, the terms are equivalent.

If I go to a squadron and, without authorization, take a radio, use it in a mission, and then return it in the same condition, did I stole it? Unauthorized use is certainly NOT the same as "stolen".

[RRLE]

return it in the same condition, did I stole it? Unauthorized use is certainly NOT the same as "stolen".

In the matter under discussion, the plane was never returned nor is it in the same condition so it was stolen.

If your hypothetical radio was misplaced or "stolen" while in your possession without authorization, your original taking of it would have been theft.

[Luis R. Ramos]

If you did that in my squadron, since I did not know your intentions or who took it I would have made a report of a "stolen radio" until ya returned it!

[umpirecali]

If I go to a squadron and, without authorization, take a radio, use it in a mission, and then return it in the same condition, did I stole it? Unauthorized use is certainly NOT the same as "stolen".

According to Merriam-Webster

: to take (something that does not belong to you) in a way that is wrong or illegal
: to take (something that you are not supposed to have) without asking for permission

yup, you stole the radio

If I go to your driveway and without authorization, take your car, use it in a mission, and then return it in the same condition, did I steal it?

Yes, yes I did.  Most people would look the other way on a radio as your intentions were good, and the value was small (and the no harm, no foul factor), but they could also call the police.  Heck, in the eyes of the law, smearing cake on someone's face is considered assault even though it is minor, so "borrowing" a radio is theft.  Taking a radio is still theft if you don't have authorization.  Now, we are talking about a plane and not a radio. Taking a piece of property work hundreds of thousands of dollars (and sometimes millions) without authorization is most certainly theft. 

[LSThiker]

If I go to your driveway and without authorization, take your car, use it in a mission, and then return it in the same condition, did I steal it?

Yes, yes I did.

Depending on what state you are in and the conditions in which you took the car, it may be considered "Operating Without Consent", which is not technically theft according to the law as, again in some states, theft requires the intent to deprive the owner.  Operating Without Consent is when you have no intention of depriving the owner of it and thus return it.   

[Garibaldi]

If I go to your driveway and without authorization, take your car, use it in a mission, and then return it in the same condition, did I steal it?

Yes, yes I did.

Depending on what state you are in and the conditions in which you took the car, it may be considered "Operating Without Consent", which is not technically theft according to the law as, again in some states, theft requires the intent to deprive the owner.  Operating Without Consent is when you have no intention of depriving the owner of it and thus return it.   

Soooooo....something to the effect of leaving a note saying "Dear CAP. I borrowed (this) on (this date) for the purpose of (this). I will return it forthwith but I needed it because reasons. Signed, CAP SM Doodlebug." At least someone will notice item is missing and why.

[JeffDG]

If I go to your driveway and without authorization, take your car, use it in a mission, and then return it in the same condition, did I steal it?

Yes, yes I did.

Depending on what state you are in and the conditions in which you took the car, it may be considered "Operating Without Consent", which is not technically theft according to the law as, again in some states, theft requires the intent to deprive the owner.  Operating Without Consent is when you have no intention of depriving the owner of it and thus return it.   

Soooooo....something to the effect of leaving a note saying "Dear CAP. I borrowed (this) on (this date) for the purpose of (this). I will return it forthwith but I needed it because reasons. Signed, CAP SM Doodlebug." At least someone will notice item is missing and why.

That's the type of document I call a "Constructive CAPF 37"

If you need it, but don't have the form available...at least leave something!

[Storm Chaser]

If I go to a squadron and, without authorization, take a radio, use it in a mission, and then return it in the same condition, did I stole it? Unauthorized use is certainly NOT the same as "stolen".

According to Merriam-Webster

: to take (something that does not belong to you) in a way that is wrong or illegal
: to take (something that you are not supposed to have) without asking for permission

yup, you stole the radio

If I go to your driveway and without authorization, take your car, use it in a mission, and then return it in the same condition, did I steal it?

Yes, yes I did.  Most people would look the other way on a radio as your intentions were good, and the value was small (and the no harm, no foul factor), but they could also call the police.  Heck, in the eyes of the law, smearing cake on someone's face is considered assault even though it is minor, so "borrowing" a radio is theft.  Taking a radio is still theft if you don't have authorization.  Now, we are talking about a plane and not a radio. Taking a piece of property work hundreds of thousands of dollars (and sometimes millions) without authorization is most certainly theft.

It's very easy to use straw man arguments. Comparing your example of a privately own vehicle to my example of a CAP radio used during a mission without authorization is like comparing apples and oranges.

Unauthorized use is wrong and not without consequences. But it doesn't automatically denote theft. A qualified CAP pilot who is scheduled to fly an authorized sortie on a CAP airplane and forgets to get a flight release before taking off has technically taken the airplane without authorization. And while there are consequences to those actions, it doesn't necessarily mean the pilot stole the airplane.

[Nuke52]

A qualified CAP pilot who is scheduled to fly an authorized sortie on a CAP airplane and forgets to get a flight release before taking off has technically taken the airplane without authorization. And while there are consequences to those actions, it doesn't necessarily mean the pilot stole the airplane.

And I assume you agree that a CAP pilot who was not scheduled to fly an authorized sortie on a CAP airplane and never intended to get a flight release, and--possibly--also to never return that airplane to CAP in its previous (i.e., one-piece) condition might just be considered theft?

[EMT-83]

Really? CAP Talk has hit a new low.

After losing the fight with whatever demons he was struggling with, a member has died. Show some respect.