Uniforms and Rank/Grade

Started by ColonelJack, September 16, 2013, 04:41:39 PM

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abdsp51

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 16, 2013, 11:24:12 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on September 16, 2013, 11:09:29 PM
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 16, 2013, 10:24:55 PM
No secret that I am not a fan of the air force style uniforms in CAP.  But would I do away with uniforms entirely?  Absolutely not!  We do need a way to set ourselves apart from others in the AOA.   I would lose the blues and BDUs.  I would go with cargo / tactical pants and either a golf shirt or a khaki shirt.

As far as rank, I guess I could take it or leave it though it might be better if it was somehow tied to one's position or level of responsibility.  The idea of a bunch of Lt Colonels and Majors sitting around in a squadron with a 1st Lt as their commander is rather ridiculous in my opinion.   As far as using rank or ribbons as an indication of personal achievement, that can be accomplished with a limited number of badges or patches for various mission skills.  This would include pilot wings, specialty track badges, etc.  These would be for CAP qualifications only, not what you did back in the day in the military.
Disgruntled much?

Jack asked for our opinions and I gave mine which by the way is similar to others above mine in some regards.  You have yet to offer your opinion but instead just decided to attack me.  I take it your are one of those that loves the fruit salad.  I guess it makes you feel like a man.

There was no attack what so ever just a question.  And if I was so in love with fruit salad I would add my AD rack to my CAP rack. 

Walkman

Personally, I love both the uniforms and rank. As others have already noted, I'd like to see our system of rank improved. I'd even be willing to do more for each promotion than our current system calls for if there was a call for that.

Ned

Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 16, 2013, 11:24:12 PM
Jack asked for our opinions and I gave mine which by the way is similar to others above mine in some regards.  You have yet to offer your opinion but instead just decided to attack me.  I take it your are one of those that loves the fruit salad.  I guess it makes you feel like a man.

To quote a wise man on this subject:

Quote from: David VandenbroeckI do understand why some myself included would prefer changes to the uniform policy but let us refrain from name calling directed at those who like to wear the uniform.

RiverAux

Quote from: skymaster on September 16, 2013, 11:25:20 PM
Actually, in Georgia the Air Patrol had uniforms BEFORE 1 December 1941. Here is a photo from the summer of 1941, showing 3 Air Patrol officers in uniform. The uniform was a khaki USAAF uniform, with a Georgia State Defense Corps patch, silver prop/wing insignia, grade insignia, and a flight cap with red trim. So you are absolutely correct, they WERE intended from the very beginning.

Well, they actually aren't CAP.  Totally different state organization.  Though I'd bet quite a few of them ended up joining CAP when it started. 

Eclipse

We have photos of CAP members in Pinks from March 42, and related photos from the same year in pinks with WWII era insignia
and grade.  Clearly grade and grade insignia have been a part of CAP since day one.

"That Others May Zoom"

whatevah

Quote from: Ned on September 16, 2013, 11:40:42 PM
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 16, 2013, 11:24:12 PM
Jack asked for our opinions and I gave mine which by the way is similar to others above mine in some regards.  You have yet to offer your opinion but instead just decided to attack me.  I take it your are one of those that loves the fruit salad.  I guess it makes you feel like a man.

To quote a wise man on this subject:

Quote from: David VandenbroeckI do understand why some myself included would prefer changes to the uniform policy but let us refrain from name calling directed at those who like to wear the uniform.

I concur; reign it in, fellows...
Jerry Horn
CAPTalk Co-Admin

abdsp51

My thoughts on uniforms. 

1) Level the playing field as it provides a standard appearance (H/W, grooming aside and polo combo aside)
2) Provides a much more professional appearance than most organizations
3) Teaches and reenforces attributes that can and will most of the time lead to success

Grade structure provides a little bit more credibility for outside agencies and has been tradition with the organization for decades.  Can the system be improved sure, but that will take a sustained and standard approach and effort.

With out these we'd be a rag tag organization no one would take seriously in any regards.

Private Investigator

What we got now works for our dysfunctional family. The main thing is the rank and uniform appearance for the Cadet side of the house. Instead of saying, "Cadet Hill, report to Captain Simpson for ...."; it will be "Bobby, see Homer after snacks."

The other thing we do a pretty good job at rewarding our members. Volunteers do like a little attention. YOLO YMMV   8)

Eclipse

Quote from: abdsp51 on September 17, 2013, 12:37:35 AM
1) Level the playing field as it provides a standard appearance (H/W, grooming aside and polo combo aside)

Considering how cherished appearance apparently is to the USAF, at least in as much as it husbands its uniforms
tighter then any of the other services (though besides the CG since the others don't have auxs), it's pretty
amazing how they seem to be basically blind to the fact that having their auxiliary in a mess of different apparel
basically accomplishes the exact opposite of the intent. 

Lose the blues and forget about the ABU nonsense, keep the corporate variants, but leave all the bling intact, including the allowance for war of military decs and badges on corporates.  At least it would be "uniform" and our formations wouldn't
look like a Macklemore video.

"That Others May Zoom"

Critical AOA

Quote from: Ned on September 16, 2013, 11:40:42 PM
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 16, 2013, 11:24:12 PM
Jack asked for our opinions and I gave mine which by the way is similar to others above mine in some regards.  You have yet to offer your opinion but instead just decided to attack me.  I take it your are one of those that loves the fruit salad.  I guess it makes you feel like a man.

To quote a wise man on this subject:

Quote from: David VandenbroeckI do understand why some myself included would prefer changes to the uniform policy but let us refrain from name calling directed at those who like to wear the uniform.

Touché. 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."   - George Bernard Shaw

Garibaldi

Quote from: Private Investigator on September 17, 2013, 01:14:21 AM
What we got now works for our dysfunctional family. The main thing is the rank and uniform appearance for the Cadet side of the house. Instead of saying, "Cadet Hill, report to Captain Simpson for ...."; it will be "Bobby, see Homer after snacks."


I said it once, and I'll say it again. 2225 and that boy ain't right.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

SunDog

I think we could appear professional, sans military rank. IBM and the Red Cross pull it off. Colonel Smith becomes Air Operations Director Smith, or whatever. You can call me Mission Pilot Sundog, instead of Capt Sundog. And I reallly like the tactical/cargo pants and golf shirt/khaki shirt, per DV's post.

But you asked why, I think, one way or the other? I think I'd lean slightly toward losing the rank, and USAF style uniforms, because it might get us some needed cultural distance from Big Blue, maybe help chnge the relationship some, or get it started in that direction. I feel we twist ourselves in some knots emulating the USAF business practices - we lack the "agility" we need, as Ned said recenly.

But if it means a whole lot to keep the status quo, to a lot of folks, I can keep the railroad tracks. Dropping the unis might not help with USAF much, anyway. Tradition has value, as long as it doesn't get in the way of being smarter.

We can look pretty ragged now, for sure. A bunch of us went to a local AFB for a chamber ride a few years ago. Ghastly, I mean hideous, and I'm pretty easy about this stuff.  I didn't KNOW we had that many uniform combinations, or that we could muck them up so ingeniuosly. It was embarrasing. . .

Rank and uniforms seem good for cadets, and Big Blue probably likes it for the cadets, as well. But anyone know why they are in that ancient woodland camo? Are we TRYING to lose them in the woods? Someone sid the woodland was free(obsolete) so that's why?




SarDragon

The BDUs, for the most part, have not been free, and orange vests are required in the woods, so neither of those are valid points.

Next?
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

abdsp51

Quote from: SunDog on September 17, 2013, 04:35:56 AM
But you asked why, I think, one way or the other? I think I'd lean slightly toward losing the rank, and USAF style uniforms, because it might get us some needed cultural distance from Big Blue, maybe help chnge the relationship some, or get it started in that direction. I feel we twist ourselves in some knots emulating the USAF business practices - we lack the "agility" we need, as Ned said recenly.

You realize about the majority of our funding comes from the USAF right? 

Eclipse

Quote from: SunDog on September 17, 2013, 04:35:56 AM
But you asked why, I think, one way or the other? I think I'd lean slightly toward losing the rank, and USAF style uniforms, because it might get us some needed cultural distance from Big Blue, maybe help chnge the relationship some, or get it started in that direction. I feel we twist ourselves in some knots emulating the USAF business practices - we lack the "agility" we need, as Ned said recenly.

Needed cultural difference?  Are you serious? Aeroclubs.com, ORM is pre-printed, Flight Releases are too much hassle, etc., etc. You realize we're a military auxiliary, right?  We twist ourselves in knots breaking regs and "knowing better".

Quote from: SunDog on September 17, 2013, 04:35:56 AMRank and uniforms seem good for cadets, and Big Blue probably likes it for the cadets, as well. But anyone know why they are in that ancient woodland camo? Are we TRYING to lose them in the woods? Someone sid the woodland was free(obsolete) so that's why?

Who's they & them?

Are you going to press buttons now and pretend only cadets wear BDUs?

"That Others May Zoom"

SunDog

Oh. So, why are the cadets in woodland camo? Isn't that kinda odd? Camo and orange vests? Sort of like a cheetah wearing a rotating beacon on his head. . .

But for us old folks, I'd really like a comfy pair of cargo pants and khaki shirt. No name tags on the shirts, either.  USAF might start thinking of us as a civilian volunteer grop, instead of the second (fourth?) string guys you keep around, but don't respect?

BUT BUT BUT. . . let's not change it if it'll really upset a bunch of members. NHQ can get inside USAF's OODA  loop in other ways, someday. . .



SunDog

Quote from: abdsp51 on September 17, 2013, 04:51:23 AM
Quote from: SunDog on September 17, 2013, 04:35:56 AM
But you asked why, I think, one way or the other? I think I'd lean slightly toward losing the rank, and USAF style uniforms, because it might get us some needed cultural distance from Big Blue, maybe help chnge the relationship some, or get it started in that direction. I feel we twist ourselves in some knots emulating the USAF business practices - we lack the "agility" we need, as Ned said recenly.

You realize about the majority of our funding comes from the USAF right?

I thought it was from Congress, and USAF was the oversight body?

Eclipse

#37
Quote from: SunDog on September 17, 2013, 05:10:10 AM
Oh. So, why are the cadets in woodland camo? Isn't that kinda odd? Camo and orange vests? Sort of like a cheetah wearing a rotating beacon on his head. . .

CAP members wear woodland camo because the USAF wore it (as did all the services), at the time CAP did its last major uniform revision.

Quote from: SunDog on September 17, 2013, 05:10:10 AMBut for us old folks, I'd really like a comfy pair of cargo pants and khaki shirt. No name tags on the shirts, either.  USAF might start thinking of us as a civilian volunteer grop, instead of the second (fourth?) string guys you keep around, but don't respect?

Assuming you're really a member, why are you insulting everyone with comments like this?  You seem to have a less then
comprehensive understanding of the organization for someone with such inversely comprehensive opinions.

"That Others May Zoom"

SunDog

Quote from: Eclipse on September 17, 2013, 04:57:20 AM
Quote from: SunDog on September 17, 2013, 04:35:56 AM
But you asked why, I think, one way or the other? I think I'd lean slightly toward losing the rank, and USAF style uniforms, because it might get us some needed cultural distance from Big Blue, maybe help chnge the relationship some, or get it started in that direction. I feel we twist ourselves in some knots emulating the USAF business practices - we lack the "agility" we need, as Ned said recenly.

Needed cultural difference?  Are you serious? Aeroclubs.com, ORM is pre-printed, Flight Releases are too much hassle, etc., etc. You realize we're a military auxiliary, right?  We twist ourselves in knots breaking regs and "knowing better".

Quote from: SunDog on September 17, 2013, 04:35:56 AMRank and uniforms seem good for cadets, and Big Blue probably likes it for the cadets, as well. But anyone know why they are in that ancient woodland camo? Are we TRYING to lose them in the woods? Someone sid the woodland was free(obsolete) so that's why?

Who's they & them?

Are you going to press buttons now and pretend only cadets wear BDUs?

Maybe ratchet down a notch, what d'ya say? "Uniforms and Rank/Grade", remember?

I see cadets in woodland camo, and was idly curious, just thought it was an odd choice, but figured there may be some particular reason for it. If it has religious, cultural, or political importance to you, no sweat, not a hot topic for me. Most seniors I see are in some USAF or corporate combo. I think one of the CP seniors is in the woodland camo, sometimes. Otherwise, it's the blue BDU uniform, flight suit, polo, whatever, for the seniors I see. Hey, IRT cadet uniforms, you can paint 'em pink and call them Mary, and that would be fine with me: I don't have a dog in this fight.

The man asked us what we thought, and why. I spoke my piece. IRT to ORM, FR, etc., U and me been all over that ground.  Let's not hijack another thread.

ZigZag911

I'm with Eclipse...corporate uniforms, all insignia included, as sole choice for seniors...let the cadets keep Air Force style.

Leave the grade structure alone...it's confusing enough as things are...let's limit ourselves to CAP's own problems, rather than also adopting those of CGAUX, Red Cross, etc.