ABU's???

[biomed441]

If all CAP was was a community based USAF cadet program, then I would expect to see uniforms much more in line with the USAF.

I very strongly doubt it, based on events of the late '80s and early '90s that we're still being punished/punishing ourselves for.

Oh I don't disagree with you in that respect.  I was meaning more on a speculative level, had CAP not been as broad of a program to begin with prior to those events and only designed to support a cadet program like the Sea Cadets and Young Marines, USACC Etc...

As for the being punished/punishing ourselves.  I'm not at the top so whatever politics are being played involved with "punishing ourselves" needs to stop.  If the USAF Says no, then they say no.  What is the logic in punishing ourselves if that is in fact what we are doing?  Has anyone ever just tried to asked if we can get back some of what we lost?  Maybe the AF is more forgiving than we think it is? 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

As for the being punished/punishing ourselves.  I'm not at the top so whatever politics are being played involved with "punishing ourselves" needs to stop.  If the USAF Says no, then they say no.  What is the logic in punishing ourselves if that is in fact what we are doing?  Has anyone ever just tried to asked if we can get back some of what we lost?  Maybe the AF is more forgiving than we think it is? 

Good points and a good question.

However, I think that in the aftermath of the previous Generalissimo and the way he "introduced" a perfectly good uniform that's being canned for no good reason I can see, I think those higher up the food chain don't really want to push any uniform issue with the AF.

I'd be good with blue CAP epaulets and nameplate to be used both on the white and light blue shirt and service coat, or brushed silver two-line nameplate on service coat, and replace "U.S." collar brass with "CAP," but no way in heck will the issue be broached other than here on CT.

[afgeo4]

The National Commodore, USCGAUX, who wears three stars, is obligated to salute a brand-new Warrant Officer 1. 

USCG Auxiliary members are required to render salute military officers holding rank higher than their office position's equivalent rank. Thus, Commodores are not required to salute anyone who holds less stars than they do. The Coast Guard recognizes that USCG Auxiliary members are civilians without rank, but in an effort to not confuse the public, members who wear seemingly higher rank only salute those higher ranked than them. It is also the reason why USCG Auxiliary members are often required to wear the Member insignia on their uniforms while augmenting active/reserve forces of the Coast Guard. It prevents confusion from seeing a LT saluting a Petty Officer.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^New one on me.  I stand corrected.

When I was in the Aux, it was made clear to me that all military commissioned and warrant officers outranked me, no matter how many rings I had (for the record: VFC, 1 1/2 rings) and therefore I was to salute them.

I never augmented but just in case I kept a set of Member insignia in the pocket of my working blues.

[zonaman]

Part of the punishment is self-flagellation on the part of CAP leadership.  You have no doubt read elsewhere about the saga of the Corporate Service Uniform, which is a good example.  As I see it, CAP upper echelons are still so nervous about the events of the late '80s/early '90s that they see a "this will tick off the AF" bogeyman under every bed.  Others will no doubt disagree.

You mean it's been 20 to 30 years since the "bad apples"!? . . . and the "upper echelons" are still walking on eggshells!?. . .  oh-man, somebody do something!

I had no idea it was like that. I joined CAP in the late 90's, BDU's that look like Christmas trees and grey epaulets are all I know besides a few old pictures I've seen. -- BTW the whole "Christmas tree" thing came from AF personell that used to work with my squadron a while back. It was all in good humor.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

When I first joined ('93) we had just had the maroon epaulettes inflicted on us by the AF not long before.  However, we still had blue three-line nameplates.

The "berry boards" were bloody ugly. 



As soon as the marginally-better grey ones came out, I canned those horrible berry boards.

I would think that getting back the blue CAP epaulettes would be a step in the right direction, including wearing them on the service dress.



If one cannot tell that is a Civil Air Patrol insignia, it is not a problem with "low light" or "at a distance."  The problem is that the viewer is illiterate.

We used to have solid green background rank, but even if we get the ABU, you can bet we'll still have the ultramarine blue.



If it doesn't look like, as you said, a uniform "Christmas tree," those up the food chain start worrying that the AF is going to somehow get ticked off again.

As regards the ABU, though...honestly, I don't ever see it happening for us.  There is a mindset in CAP about "distinctiveness" and I don't think there is a way to make the ABU look "distinctive" enough.

[Hawk200]

As regards the ABU, though...honestly, I don't ever see it happening for us.  There is a mindset in CAP about "distinctiveness" and I don't think there is a way to make the ABU look "distinctive" enough.

Blue tapes/rank/insignia on a BDU looked distinctive enough. Don't see why it wouldn't be considered for the next uniform. Just hope it's a more appealing blue than the current.

[afgeo4]

Part of the punishment is self-flagellation on the part of CAP leadership.  You have no doubt read elsewhere about the saga of the Corporate Service Uniform, which is a good example.  As I see it, CAP upper echelons are still so nervous about the events of the late '80s/early '90s that they see a "this will tick off the AF" bogeyman under every bed.  Others will no doubt disagree.

You mean it's been 20 to 30 years since the "bad apples"!? . . . and the "upper echelons" are still walking on eggshells!?. . .  oh-man, somebody do something!

I had no idea it was like that. I joined CAP in the late 90's, BDU's that look like Christmas trees and grey epaulets are all I know besides a few old pictures I've seen. -- BTW the whole "Christmas tree" thing came from AF personell that used to work with my squadron a while back. It was all in good humor.

Also in good humor... the Army always referred to AF BDUs as Christmas trees because of all the pretty patches we wore. The Air Force is historically non-subdued. It never needed to be honestly. Still doesn't. The only Airmen that do beyond the fence work wear Army uniforms most of the time anyway.

[JBC]

As regards the ABU, though...honestly, I don't ever see it happening for us.  There is a mindset in CAP about "distinctiveness" and I don't think there is a way to make the ABU look "distinctive" enough.

Blue tapes/rank/insignia on a BDU looked distinctive enough. Don't see why it wouldn't be considered for the next uniform. Just hope it's a more appealing blue than the current.

Possibly some moderately less repulsive navy blue tapes. The '60s tapes are the only part of the current uniform I have trouble continuing to stomach. Except for the boy-scoutish model rocketry patch.

[J. Wilson]

I doubt we'll be in ABUs anytime soon.

[Hawk200]

I doubt we'll be in ABUs anytime soon.

What makes you say that?

[HGjunkie]

I've heard it all about ABU's. First, it was supposed to happen in 2011. Now, it's supposed to start in 2015 from what I've heard. I think the issue should be dropped until NHQ comes out with a policy on it.

[Tim Medeiros]

I think the issue should be dropped until NHQ comes out with a policy on it.

I would agree, but then I realize this is CAPTalk, and that the topic gets picked up by new members every couple of months.

[HGjunkie]

I think the issue should be dropped until NHQ comes out with a policy on it.

I would agree, but then I realize this is CAPTalk, and that the topic gets picked up by new members every couple of months.

Well in that case, Play game!

[cust0s]

I'll bite!

I have mixed feelings about the issue.  On one hand I think there should be some sort of change because usually change can be a good thing and even motivate esprit de corps and boost unit morale.  I hear old and new members always asking.  Constructively we can assess priorities for why we would want to make a uniform change and then stick to it.  I personally would like a one size fits all based on the needed application for the uniform (e.g. one type of BDU, dress uniform, flight suit for pilots and mission scanners, etc., and of course a one type distinctive uniform respective for the overweight and grooming standard members, and yes, even if that just means a polo shirt option).  On the other hand, I would hate to see excellent members who may not have much cash in the bank at the moment and who also have a current uniform but unable to purchase a new uniform and subsequently miss some of the meetings (I like the phase out approach in that case).

Overall, they could revamp all of the uniform regs.  Specifically, if you're going to have specialty patches and related items for any uniform, then make sure that vanguard is carrying these items for all specialties, duties, etc.  If not, then why even have them?  Moreover, maybe we should go to a velcro uniform...  I mean think about it, whenever you get promoted, demoted, new rating, new unit, etc.... then you could rip off and slap on the new patch.  Also, if we were ever to get ABUs and lets say that you were also active duty Air Force or reserve, then no need to buy a new uniform, if you are at CAP slap on the CAP distinctive velcro name tape, and other patches, and voila.  Also, the vice versa would be same when you go back to work.  You could keep some of these in your pocket and save time.  Perhaps we're allowed to used velcro on our own initiative?  Does anyone know otherwise?  Correct me if I'm wrong.

This is just a thought, but it could make us more uniform.  I love the corporate side of things but I also think that we just look awful in formation with a few seniors in Polos or varying uniforms of the like. *shrug*  Otherwise, don't forget that when the Air Force became it's own branch it wanted to be as distinctive as possible from the Army.  Similarly, we should resemble the Air Force, but we should also have pride in our own distinctiveness...whatever that may end up being in the long run.

Again, just a thought, but who knows when, if ever, anything as far as uniforms will change....

[DakRadz]

Otherwise, don't forget that when the Air Force became it's own branch it wanted to be as distinctive as possible from the Army.  Similarly, we should resemble the Air Force, but we should also have pride in our own distinctiveness...whatever that may end up being in the long run.

Again, just a thought, but who knows when, if ever, anything as far as uniforms will change....

But they went from being "Army Air Forces" to definite, independent, pure "Air Force."

We are the Air Force Auxiliary, and the Air Force has a vote on our Ruling Council of Overlords. Air Force is kinda a key piece of the puzzle.

[tsrup]

I'll bite!

I have mixed feelings about the issue.  On one hand I think there should be some sort of change because usually change can be a good thing and even motivate esprit de corps and boost unit morale.  I hear old and new members always asking.  Constructively we can assess priorities for why we would want to make a uniform change and then stick to it.  I personally would like a one size fits all based on the needed application for the uniform (e.g. one type of BDU, dress uniform, flight suit for pilots and mission scanners, etc., and of course a one type distinctive uniform respective for the overweight and grooming standard members, and yes, even if that just means a polo shirt option).  On the other hand, I would hate to see excellent members who may not have much cash in the bank at the moment and who also have a current uniform but unable to purchase a new uniform and subsequently miss some of the meetings (I like the phase out approach in that case).

Overall, they could revamp all of the uniform regs.  Specifically, if you're going to have specialty patches and related items for any uniform, then make sure that vanguard is carrying these items for all specialties, duties, etc.  If not, then why even have them?  Moreover, maybe we should go to a velcro uniform...  I mean think about it, whenever you get promoted, demoted, new rating, new unit, etc.... then you could rip off and slap on the new patch.  Also, if we were ever to get ABUs and lets say that you were also active duty Air Force or reserve, then no need to buy a new uniform, if you are at CAP slap on the CAP distinctive velcro name tape, and other patches, and voila.  Also, the vice versa would be same when you go back to work.  You could keep some of these in your pocket and save time.  Perhaps we're allowed to used velcro on our own initiative?  Does anyone know otherwise?  Correct me if I'm wrong.

This is just a thought, but it could make us more uniform.  I love the corporate side of things but I also think that we just look awful in formation with a few seniors in Polos or varying uniforms of the like. *shrug*  Otherwise, don't forget that when the Air Force became it's own branch it wanted to be as distinctive as possible from the Army.  Similarly, we should resemble the Air Force, but we should also have pride in our own distinctiveness...whatever that may end up being in the long run.

Again, just a thought, but who knows when, if ever, anything as far as uniforms will change....

Except Real AF^TM sew on their patches... so using the same uniform for CAP as your work uniform (at least the blouse) wouldn't work, especially with those who are Enlisted and have stripes on their sleeves. 
Not only that but as far as cadets are concerned, the pin on rank works perfectly for their frequent promotions, and Seniors don't get promoted often enough for sewing on new rank to really be an issue.  To be perfectly honest, after Captain, every promotion is probably right around a good time to get a new set anyways (YMMV).

As far as a phase in is concerned, that is pretty much a given.  It's what we've done with every uniform adjustment we've ever had.  I think the concept of "Next month BDU's will be out!" a little far fetched (ok, a lot far fetched).  I see something of a phase in of 2-5 years being what we'll have (if we have it).

Personally I'd love to see us make the switch.  It has nothing to do with a hard-kewl attitude, but just a way of saying "hey, we are on the same team still?  Right?".

Either way it's time to figure out what we're going to do. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

I've heard it all about ABU's. First, it was supposed to happen in 2011. Now, it's supposed to start in 2015 from what I've heard. I think the issue should be dropped until NHQ comes out with a policy on it.

Actually, the rumor mill since 06ish has been 2007, then 08, then 09, 10, 11...15...

I think you get the point.

[AngelWings]

 Why is something so simple has a uniform phase in getting so complicated. It cost money, it needs some time to allow people to get them, there has to be a policy carry over on the wear of ABU's, what is so complicated with it. I know funds are real tight, but that wouldn't be too complicated to go out and say is the official reason we are not getting ABU's right now.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Why is something so simple has a uniform phase in getting so complicated. It cost money, it needs some time to allow people to get them, there has to be a policy carry over on the wear of ABU's, what is so complicated with it. I know funds are real tight, but that wouldn't be too complicated to go out and say is the official reason we are not getting ABU's right now.

There's nothing complicated about it.

When the AF says we can go ahead anytime we want, NHQ (after CAP governing body approval) could put out an ICL with the uniform and patch locations. That's it. Nothing more to it.