ABU's???

[Майор Хаткевич]

Thom knows what I was talking about. I was speaking of the ERDL pattern used in Vietnam, which evolved into the pattern we know and love today on BDU's. I wasn't saying that BDU's were used in Vietnam. Just that a similar woodland camouflage pattern was.

But were they worn full force in the Air Force? If not, why would we use the earliest date as a base point?

[titanII]

But were they worn full force in the Air Force? If not, why would we use the earliest date as a base point?

No, I don't think they were used full force in the Air Force. I used the earliest date as a base point to show when that kind of uniform (ERDL/BDU woodland camo) was introduced- regardless of service. (Plus it helps my point for there to be more time btwn Military introduction and CAP introduction    )

[Hawk200]

But were they worn full force in the Air Force? If not, why would we use the earliest date as a base point?

No, I don't think they were used full force in the Air Force. I used the earliest date as a base point to show when that kind of uniform (ERDL/BDU woodland camo) was introduced- regardless of service. (Plus it helps my point for there to be more time btwn Military introduction and CAP introduction    )

The ERDL camo was a jungle camouflage pattern. It was a lot brighter than woodland, and there are some subtle differences in the shaping.

It doesn't demonstrate anything relating to the point of time between military adoption and CAP adoption. CAP adopts what the Air Force permits, and it wasn't until the '90's that CAP got woodland. The Air Force didn't use the woodland as a widespread issue until '88, and never used ERDL as general issue.

[SarDragon]

Due to availability issues, the overseas CAP units were permitted to wear woodland BDUs at the same time the AF was.

[titanII]

Good points by everyone. I'm gonna cede this to you. Let's switch to ABU's. I'm not gonna be happy about buying new uniform items, but at least I won't have to iron my ABUs or shine my boots.

[Hawk200]

I'm not gonna be happy about buying new uniform items, but at least I won't have to iron my ABUs or shine my boots.

I'll agree on the first point, but not shining or ironing is definitely a plus.

I just wish the Air Force had used tan boots instead of those green ones.

[DakRadz]

I'm not gonna be happy about buying new uniform items, but at least I won't have to iron my ABUs or shine my boots.

I'll agree on the first point, but not shining or ironing is definitely a plus.

I just wish the Air Force had used tan boots instead of those green ones.

Hey, eBay is amazing. I have some issue Sage Bellevilles with no visible wear I snagged for $20.

I bought them for airsoft/working outside, but I'd love to use them for CAP. Until then, they won't be seen in an official uniform worn by me.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Yes, there are things about being significantly different in low light conditions, but the why is not presently known. (And I'm talking the legitimate "why" not the hearsay.)

Sir, the day you find out what that "low light/at a distance" Bull Durham actually means, please let us all know.  The one who is able to do that should immediately be promoted to Major General and appointed National Commander.  As it is it is just a nebulous phrase that can mean almost anything to anybody and is used every now and then as a cattle prod to put CAP in its place from being too "uppity" about uniform issues.

But, on topic, I would support doing away with all tapes, collar blingage etc, and going with the leather aircrew patch on BDU's, BBDU's and ABU's when we get them  .  The Air Force tried it and binned it because officers weren't being recognised for salutes.  We don't really have that issue.

It would save a lot of money and a lot of wear on the uniforms.

[MIKE]

The ABS-G uses a cloth ASNP similar to the McPeak BDUs.

[Hawk200]

Yes, there are things about being significantly different in low light conditions, but the why is not presently known. (And I'm talking the legitimate "why" not the hearsay.)

Sir, the day you find out what that "low light/at a distance" Bull Durham actually means, please let us all know.

Actually, you can let me know, because it's unlikely that I ever would. If I had known, I would have shared. I do recall that it has been mentioned at one of the National Staff get togethers, so it's well above my pay grade (and probably yours as well).

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Actually, you can let me know, because it's unlikely that I ever would. If I had known, I would have shared. I do recall that it has been mentioned at one of the National Staff get togethers, so it's well above my pay grade (and probably yours as well).

It is above my paygrade too...I am a lowly Captain serving mostly in the background, having never commanded a unit (though I was a Deputy Commander at one time), though hopefully not a Captain-For-Life.

That phrase about "low light/at a distance" has always irked the heck out of me, because of its ambiguity.  It can mean almost anything, and it has been used to put the kibosh on existing uniforms (CSU) and to limit what can be done with possible future uniforms (such as subdued tapes for the ABU).

[Hawk200]

That phrase about "low light/at a distance" has always irked the heck out of me, because of its ambiguity.  It can mean almost anything,

I agree. It's a little too general for my taste, and I don't care for it's use in any way shape or form. Even in "low light conditions" you could tell the difference between the various branches of military personnel when they all wore the BDU.

(such as subdued tapes for the ABU).

Honestly, I don't think we need them. However, I don't think we should have to wear those garish ultramarine blue tapes. I think navy blue accoutrements would be just fine, and we can already get the basic items (tapes and rank) right now. Badges would take only a little longer.

Right now, ABUs from 50 feet don't even look like they have tapes on them. All that is really visible is the rank and any badges that are worn. From that distance, it looks like the person is wearing a badge about an inch and half above their pocket.

Now, something like navy blue nametapes would be obvious at most distances in even low light conditions. You can easily tell there is something over the pockets. It's not obvious with Air Force tapes that are the same pattern as the uniform it's sewed on to. Dark blue actually looks decent, and it's in full compliance with "low light" issues to any reasonable person.

I'd be happy if they told us dark blue tapes, and all the accoutrements in the standard Air Force colors. Wouldn't be much different than most of the State Guards out there. Upside is no special rank insignia, use the Air Force stuff. No special cloth colors either.

Of course, I can see some genius wearing the Air Force subdued tapes on it in full violation of the policy, and getting us all in trouble.

[zonaman]

I find reading uniform threads intrestring. So many strong opinions in different directions, and most with good points or useable ideas.

I would really like to know if other cadet/similar organizations like JROTC, CG-AUX, Sea Cadets, Devil Pups, ect. have similar problems with there uniforms. In my experience I have seen the Sea Cadets in uniform. There uniforms are very close to the navy, especially the adult leadership. I understand they even assist the AD Navy on docked ships. Everything on the uniform is subdued. I can't imagine they don't run into problems. I don't see the Navy turning the Sea Cadet BDU into a "Christmas tree" (CAP BDU).

I'm not in the Sea Cadets and don't know how they operate. I only know what I've seen. It appears to me that CAP or the AF decides to punish the entire organization (CAP) because of a few bad apples.
I was just wondering. Maybe someone can fill me in.

[SAR-EMT1]

CG Aux is ALMOST identical to AD CG with two exceptions:   
Black "A" superimposed on top of rank patches.
Service tape reads "USCG Auxiliary" instead of "USCG"

My ROTC uniforms were identical to AD USAF with Rank insignia being the exception:

ROTC's make use of cadet officer insignia identical to that used by our own cadinks.
Shoulder boards were dark blue slides with white stripes similar to the CAP Flight Officer insignia.
Nametapes said " US Air Force"

[RiverAux]

CG Aux is ALMOST identical to AD CG with two exceptions:   
Black "A" superimposed on top of rank patches.
Service tape reads "USCG Auxiliary" instead of "USCG"

But realize that you will also find a few CG Auxies that don't think that we deserve to wear that uniform and that we should be in all civilian clothes or something totally distinctive.  I'm not one of them, but they exist. 

[PHall]

CG Aux is ALMOST identical to AD CG with two exceptions:   
Black "A" superimposed on top of rank patches.
Service tape reads "USCG Auxiliary" instead of "USCG"

But realize that you will also find a few CG Auxies that don't think that we deserve to wear that uniform and that we should be in all civilian clothes or something totally distinctive.  I'm not one of them, but they exist.

RADIOMAN015 is an Auxie?

[biomed441]

I find reading uniform threads intrestring. So many strong opinions in different directions, and most with good points or useable ideas.

I would really like to know if other cadet/similar organizations like JROTC, CG-AUX, Sea Cadets, Devil Pups, ect. have similar problems with there uniforms. In my experience I have seen the Sea Cadets in uniform. There uniforms are very close to the navy, especially the adult leadership. I understand they even assist the AD Navy on docked ships. Everything on the uniform is subdued. I can't imagine they don't run into problems. I don't see the Navy turning the Sea Cadet BDU into a "Christmas tree" (CAP BDU).

I'm not in the Sea Cadets and don't know how they operate. I only know what I've seen. It appears to me that CAP or the AF decides to punish the entire organization (CAP) because of a few bad apples.
I was just wondering. Maybe someone can fill me in.

Sea cadets wear very very similar uniforms to the USN, as do their senior leadership, but they also have a much more focused vision on military education and naval orientation where as CAP has 3 missions to worry about.  If you look at a lot of the arguments for and against uniforms here, especially the utility uniforms; arguments often draw from their function in our ES mission.  Sea Cadets don't have that issue as they are Cadet Program only, and the Navy recognizes them more as an alternative to JROTC.  CAP, while our Cadet Program could compare in some respects to JROTC, its not everything that we are.  If all CAP was was a community based USAF cadet program, then I would expect to see uniforms much more in line with the USAF.  My 2 cents anyways.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I find reading uniform threads intrestring. So many strong opinions in different directions, and most with good points or useable ideas.

Yes, but many of those useable ideas will never be used because of ever-present CAP politics and the unfounded fear that anything we do that would deviate from the status quo would automatically tick off the Air Force.

I would really like to know if other cadet/similar organizations like JROTC, CG-AUX, Sea Cadets, Devil Pups, ect. have similar problems with there uniforms.

"Devil Pups?"  Do you mean the Young Marines?

I can only speak from direct experience about the USCGAUX, having served with them.  Their uniforms are identical to the CG in almost every way, except for the silver office braid (they don't hold ranks; they hold an alphabet soup of office designations) and the fact that their metal office insignia has either a blue or red "A" affixed.  They do not observe military courtesies among one another, though they are required to with the Armed Forces.  The National Commodore, USCGAUX, who wears three stars, is obligated to salute a brand-new Warrant Officer 1.  They are much more integrated with their parent service than CAP will ever be again.

The Commandant of the Coast Guard, Admiral Robert J. Papp Jr., has an official policy for their Auxiliary...I would be surprised if CSAF, General Norton Schwartz, has much more than a cursory knowledge of CAP.

In my experience I have seen the Sea Cadets in uniform. There uniforms are very close to the navy, especially the adult leadership. I understand they even assist the AD Navy on docked ships. Everything on the uniform is subdued. I can't imagine they don't run into problems. I don't see the Navy turning the Sea Cadet BDU into a "Christmas tree" (CAP BDU).

I've talked with a few, most recently an Ensign from the local unit.  A few years ago I considered joining up with them, because the CAP squadron I was in was basically a pilots-only flying club and there weren't any others nearby but was told in so many words that they did not need the services of "CAP rejects."      This was about 10 years ago, and I lived in another state/wing.

It appears to me that CAP or the AF decides to punish the entire organization (CAP) because of a few bad apples.

That's a fairly accurate assessment.  We used to be MUCH more integrated with the AF than we are now, and our uniforms were much closer.  We wore the same blue shoulder marks that they did, with the addition of "CAP," and we wore metal grade insignia.  The only real differences were our nameplates and "CAP" collar brass.

But...a few of those "bad apples" you mention put the kibosh on that in the early '90s, doing stupid things like trolling for salutes and trying to give orders to AF enlisted personnel which they had no authority to give.  The AF has been punishing us ever since, first with maroon epaulettes, loss of metal rank, then a half-measure of leniency with grey epaulettes.  A former squadron CC of mine knew former National CC BG Richard Anderson personally, and the General told him that "CAP will never get hard rank or blue epaulettes back."

Part of the punishment is self-flagellation on the part of CAP leadership.  You have no doubt read elsewhere about the saga of the Corporate Service Uniform, which is a good example.  As I see it, CAP upper echelons are still so nervous about the events of the late '80s/early '90s that they see a "this will tick off the AF" bogeyman under every bed.  Others will no doubt disagree.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If all CAP was was a community based USAF cadet program, then I would expect to see uniforms much more in line with the USAF.

I very strongly doubt it, based on events of the late '80s and early '90s that we're still being punished/punishing ourselves for.

[RiverAux]

We used to be MUCH more integrated with the AF than we are now, and our uniforms were much closer. 

While our uniforms have certainly been closer to the AF in the past, I would argue that CAP has never really been "integrated" with the AF in any operational sense except for a very, very limited extent during WWII (there were only a few thousand CAP personnel involved with the "active" AF missions like coastal patrol, tow target training, etc. out of 100K+ CAP members at any one time). 

One might even argue that CAP has been more integrated with the AF in recent years through AFNORTH tracking of CAP missions and various small AF taskings (intercept missions, full-motion video training, a few major exercises, etc.).  However, like WWII, the number of CAP people involved in those activities is tiny.