ABU's???

[MIKE]

Black boots was a temporary thing for maintenance people.  IIRC there are green boots out now that are more resistant to fuels and lubricants.

[Eclipse]

CAP will never see ABU's.

[lordmonar]

In 5 years no one will be wearing ABUs.

And to use your catch phrase....Cite please?

[Eclipse]

In 5 years no one will be wearing ABUs.

And to use your catch phrase....Cite please?

Obviously you can't cite an opinion, beyond providing common sense observations.

Somebody new jumps on and says "I heard..."  then we all spend time discussing the where and when, despite the fact that the USAF is in the process of phasing out or replacing ABU's for a lot of Airmen in theater and the DOD is looking at going back to a combined field combat uniform for all the services.  Add to that the fact that the ABU is by no means a universally "loved" uniform by those who wear it every day.

We all know there is no need for a new uniform, a lot of wings are swimming in BDU's to the point that they can't give them away, and despite the assertions of a few people who apparently have neither Google or a phone, there is no shortage of availability of BDU's in the retail space (especially considering that at least two US branches are still wearing them right now).  Those people who cite that they can't get them at AAFES or MCSS ignore the fact that 80% of the membership don't even know what those acronyms mean, and most are more upset about the shutdown of the
other vendor they thought was the official source for uniforms.

Further, with proper care, a set of BDU's, whatever the color, will last for years.  Most members wear them a calendar day or two in a given month (considering a few hours a week, a couple times a month).  I have sets in the closet that still have a single white bar on one collar that look like they
just came from store, and those were actually used for real missions, encampments, and regular meetings for several years.

By the time CAP gets around to the consideration of a new field uniform, assuming they do, ABU's will not exist in their current form.

CAP will never get ABU's.

[Ned]

As a guy who just spent over 90 minutes in a National Uniform Committee conference call, I gotta say that we as an organization have a remarkable "lack of consensus" on uniform issues.

It seems that everyone has strong opinions and no two opinions seem to be the same.  And everyone is convinced that anyone else's vision is unprofessional, silly, or worse.

I did a couple of decades plus in Army uniforms, including two major transitions - from OD fatigues to BDUs; and from BDUs to ACUs.  We certainly spent our fair share of time grousing about uniforms (especially the beret), but somehow the diversity of opinions and angst level amongst CAP members seems several orders of magnitude higher.

Any ideas why that is so?  Is it just the nature of the "paid vs. unpaid professional" status?  Army folks get issued some of their uniforms and/or paid an allowance, but usually spend significant amounts of their own money on uniforms and supplies (including matching doodads and trinkets).  CAP members typically pay a much higher percentage of their uniform costs.  Could that "investment" be responsible for the stronger uniform opinion diversity?

As others have pointed out, here on CAPTalk there are more posts on uniforms that ES and CP added together.

It's a very strange phenomena, to be sure.

[AngelWings]

This comment shouldn't raise a stink.  Maybe I should attach some kinda warning, disclaimer, or somethin':

Anyone else wonder why the AF picked tiger-stripe?

On a positive note, I like the rough-side-out boots everyone is going to.

They pciked tigerstripe because they wanted to look different. Guess what the ABU looks: diferent.

[lordmonar]

I'm sure that personal investment is one of the issues.

No one likes the idea of having to shell out $200 to get new ABU's (if we ever get them).

I also think that there are several other elements running here.

You have the ex-military type who absolutely hate the idea of "wannabees" wearing their uniform, especially if they are fat and fuzzy.
You have the ex-military type who spent 20+ years being told what to wear and don't want anything to do with uniforms of any sort.
Then you have the supposed "corporate" types who seem bent to do anything and everything to move us away from the USAF.

Then add the ideal that CAP members at a certain level think that they absolutely must have a say in things.  That no matter what the issue is their view will be the one to carry the day....and they will do everything they can to stop anything else from moving forward.

Then there is the simple fact that people don't like to get anyone mad at them....or at least their clique.  Lt CoL X and his buddies like the aviators and polos and he does not want to make them upset by making wear blues/CSUs/Pink Tutus.

Then add the strangeness of our governance system......no matter what the unifrom committee does....it then has to go before the 50+ members of the NB who bring all the same sort of attitudes to the table.

I would not want your job.....unless I was in charge and only had 4-5 people on the committee.
The Uniform Committee should have on Representative from the NB, one from the BoG, one from the CAP-USAF, Legal, CP, AE and Operations.

Quick dirty and straight forward.

Job one would be to fix/correct 39-1 as it exists today.
Job two is to resolve the multiforms of our organisation.
Then they can address changes to specific uniform combos and/or requests from the field.

As someone said on CS....they need to fix the existing problems instead of adding new unifrom combinations.

[EMT-83]

You missed another category: those of us who honestly don't give a crap, and will wear what we're told to.

[RVT]

As a guy who just spent over 90 minutes in a National Uniform Committee conference call, I gotta say that we as an organization have a remarkable "lack of consensus" on uniform issues.  It seems that everyone has strong opinions and no two opinions seem to be the same.  And everyone is convinced that anyone else's vision is unprofessional, silly, or worse.  As others have pointed out, here on CAPTalk there are more posts on uniforms that ES and CP added together. It's a very strange phenomena, to be sure.

I would think it is largely because we have a full range of corporate uniforms.  We aren't debating how to wear USAF uniforms, just our own stuff.

The Coast Guard Aux doesn't have these discussions because except for one polo shirt with a very specific purpose they have no equivalent to our corporate uniforms.  They don't want or need them because the overweight members with beards.....wear Coast Guard Uniforms.

[lordmonar]

You missed another category: those of us who honestly don't give a crap, and will wear what we're told to.

Those of us that give a crap.......but will wear what we're told to.

[RVT]

You missed another category: those of us who honestly don't give a crap, and will wear what we're told to.

And the more common category.  Those  who honestly don't give a crap, and will wear whatever they want to.  People seem to really care about uniforms on CAPTALK - but not in any real life situation I have seen in the 11 months I've been back.

[DogCollar]

Ned...God Bless You!  I know that I wouldn't have been able to have been on that conference call that you described for 90 seconds, much less 90 minutes.

Uniforms...ah yes.  I usually don't get involved in these discussions.  I do find them fascinating however! 

I don't know what camp I might be in, I just know that for me, I joined CAP because of it's missions.  ES, AE and Cadet Program engage me, my interests, and I feel like I am involved in something that is important for our nation.  To me, form should follow function.  That means, do the uniforms of CAP support and enhance the missions that CAP performs?

While it would be nice to be able to get all members wearing like uniforms, it's not likely to happen.  I would rather see uniformity in function, than in exact style.  For example...shouldn't all flight teams be in flight suits?  Shouldn't all ground team member be in BDU's or BBDU's?  All cadets and adults who are involved in Cadet Programs should establish a "uniform of the day" and everyone be in that "style" uniform.

In short, a small victory would be some regulations guiding members to wear what "style" uniform when...be it an Air Force style uniform or it's Corporate counterpart...everyone performing the same "function" in the same "style" uniform.

[davidsinn]

As a guy who just spent over 90 minutes in a National Uniform Committee conference call, I gotta say that we as an organization have a remarkable "lack of consensus" on uniform issues.

I have to ask: was anything actually accomplished during this call or was it a verbal version of a CT uniform thread? In other words, was a consensus reached on anything or a decision made on anything?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

ABUs will likely be gone before we ever get the chance to have them... unless we get them from the AF because they don't want them now because they are switching to the MPU (multi-purpose uniform), more commonly referred to as multi-cam. Even the Army is usit in Afghanistan now, and it will likely become the new standard for all branches, I hope.

[Ned]

I have to ask: was anything actually accomplished during this call or was it a verbal version of a CT uniform thread? In other words, was a consensus reached on anything or a decision made on anything?

This call was just one of many as the committee moves toward consensus on a unified policy to present to the NB in August.  I think it is safe to say that progress is made during each one of these calls.  But no huge paradigm shifts are currently on the table.

IOW, I've been on hundreds of committees between work, church, and CAP.  Some have small tasks to accomplish, some have large and more complex tasks.  The Uniform Committee has a large and complex task before it and is moving methodically through it.

And a committee moving methodically can seem downright dull at times, but that doesn't mean that the work isn't getting done.

[RiverAux]

I would think it is largely because we have a full range of corporate uniforms.  We aren't debating how to wear USAF uniforms, just our own stuff.

The Coast Guard Aux doesn't have these discussions because except for one polo shirt with a very specific purpose they have no equivalent to our corporate uniforms.  They don't want or need them because the overweight members with beards.....wear Coast Guard Uniforms.

Exactly right.  Since the Aux leadership has absolutely no control over Aux uniforms and since there are only minor distinctions between CG and CG Aux uniforms, we generally only change when the CG changes and you get remarkably stable uniform regulations that are easy to understand. 

If we returned to a single AF-style uniform for all CAP members and eliminated all civilian-style and corporate uniforms, all the "angst" would be gone quite quickly.

Of course we would still have problems with people wearing the uniform incorrectly (CG Aux isn't immune from that), but it would sure be easier to fix when everyone knows the regs and they are relatively stable.

[AngelWings]

ABUs will likely be gone before we ever get the chance to have them... unless we get them from the AF because they don't want them now because they are switching to the MPU (multi-purpose uniform), more commonly referred to as multi-cam. Even the Army is usit in Afghanistan now, and it will likely become the new standard for all branches, I hope.

It isn't effective for much more environments than tree's and Afghanistan. It was designed to specifically fit into the Afghan enivornment. The ABU was, with speculation and a little opinion involved here, a uniform to be close enough to look like the US Army, but be different enough to look like more than a tiger-stripe copy. It is theatre wear, not everyday wear. It'd make us look weird, and would be a lot harder to get the USAF to let us wear. Lastly, the ABU generally is a well fitting uniform for us. It has a few extra pockets, comes pre-creased and is wash and wear, but still would look professional, and the sage green boots would be an improvement from black, mainly because black boots are calf skin leather, which shows alot of signs of wear.

[NCRblues]

I'm sure that personal investment is one of the issues.

No one likes the idea of having to shell out $200 to get new ABU's (if we ever get them).

I also think that there are several other elements running here.

You have the ex-military type who absolutely hate the idea of "wannabees" wearing their uniform, especially if they are fat and fuzzy.
You have the ex-military type who spent 20+ years being told what to wear and don't want anything to do with uniforms of any sort.
Then you have the supposed "corporate" types who seem bent to do anything and everything to move us away from the USAF.

Then add the ideal that CAP members at a certain level think that they absolutely must have a say in things.  That no matter what the issue is their view will be the one to carry the day....and they will do everything they can to stop anything else from moving forward.

Then there is the simple fact that people don't like to get anyone mad at them....or at least their clique.  Lt CoL X and his buddies like the aviators and polos and he does not want to make them upset by making wear blues/CSUs/Pink Tutus.

Then add the strangeness of our governance system......no matter what the unifrom committee does....it then has to go before the 50+ members of the NB who bring all the same sort of attitudes to the table.

I would not want your job.....unless I was in charge and only had 4-5 people on the committee.
The Uniform Committee should have on Representative from the NB, one from the BoG, one from the CAP-USAF, Legal, CP, AE and Operations.

Quick dirty and straight forward.

Job one would be to fix/correct 39-1 as it exists today.
Job two is to resolve the multiforms of our organisation.
Then they can address changes to specific uniform combos and/or requests from the field.

As someone said on CS....they need to fix the existing problems instead of adding new unifrom combinations.

You also forgot people like me, ex-military, who loves the USAF connection and uniform, and wants EVERYONE in a USAF style...

[RADIOMAN015]

I'm sure that personal investment is one of the issues.

No one likes the idea of having to shell out $200 to get new ABU's (if we ever get them).


Quick dirty and straight forward.

Job one would be to fix/correct 39-1 as it exists today.
Job two is to resolve the multiforms of our organisation.
Then they can address changes to specific uniform combos and/or requests from the field.

As someone said on CS....they need to fix the existing problems instead of adding new unifrom combinations.

You also forgot people like me, ex-military, who loves the USAF connection and uniform, and wants EVERYONE in a USAF style...

I think even the AF has a problem differentiating itself when wearing the new ABU's/ACU's etc from everyone else that is wearing them.  Frankly I can't tell the difference (cause I really don't care anyways).  I also think they got carried away by even having office workers wear this uniform all the time.  I would think 1 day a week as "warrior day" would be fine.

The issue with a CIVIL AIR PATROL field uniform is can it EFFECTIVELY distinguish us from others when performing assigned voluntary "Mission For America"   From a public relations standpoint we've achieved this when ANYONE in the public see us in uniform and state there goes CIVIL AIR PATROL.  We definitely aren't going to get this done with BDU's or ACU's. 

I think it's easy to see which way many of the NB will vote just based upon the uniforms they are wearing to the meeting.  Should prove to be interesting in the future to see what changes (if any) will occur.
RM   
I think mature adult members join Civil Air Patrol because of its' missions and uniforms are not a primary factor in joining or staying in CAP.  In fact I think most military retirees aren't really that interested in the CAP military uniform option unless they've got some uniforms right after coming off of active duty.

One thing is for sure the ABU's/ACU's are made for going to war.  CAP is not a combat command per federal law and the AF's implementing regulations, therefore any of our uniforms should allows us to be readily seen and identified as non combat participants as Civil Air Patrol volunteer members.
RM       

[Ned]

I think even the AF has a problem differentiating itself when wearing the new ABU's/ACU's etc from everyone else that is wearing them.  Frankly I can't tell the difference (cause I really don't care anyways).  I also think they got carried away by even having office workers wear this uniform all the time.  I would think 1 day a week as "warrior day" would be fine.

I may be wrong, but I don't think Gen Schwarz follows CAPTalk and may not get the benefit of your advice.

You can email him off of this page.