CAP Talk

General Discussion => Uniforms & Awards => Topic started by: CAPCAPT41 on May 24, 2011, 10:25:21 PM

Title: ABU's???
Post by: CAPCAPT41 on May 24, 2011, 10:25:21 PM
I have been hearing rumors all over the place about Civil Air Patrol phasing out of BDU's and going to ABU's. Has anyone heard anything about it? if so, is it true or not?? I'm really curious.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: HGjunkie on May 24, 2011, 10:26:48 PM
It's a rumor. There has been numerous "Dates" proposed that I've heard of, none of them have happened though. I wouldn't expect to make the switch anytime soon.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: CAPCAPT41 on May 24, 2011, 11:12:10 PM
Thats what I had figured. It works for me though cause I don't like the way the ABUs look. haha
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: sneakers on May 25, 2011, 12:18:34 AM
Last I heard, the rumor was roughly 5 years from now CAP would be phasing into them.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Eclipse on May 25, 2011, 01:37:18 AM
In 5 years no one will be wearing ABUs.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Major Carrales on May 25, 2011, 01:48:01 AM
The standard rumor date I heard was 2012... and that was in 2007.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AngelWings on May 25, 2011, 02:08:43 AM
 The USAF requirement for all servicemembers to be in ABU's is Novemberish/ End of Third Fiscal Quarter. After that date, it'll take a minimum of a year to start an offical phase-in of ABU's, but that is in a best of case situation.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: anonymous former c/col on May 25, 2011, 02:36:50 AM
This comment shouldn't raise a stink.  Maybe I should attach some kinda warning, disclaimer, or somethin':

Anyone else wonder why the AF picked tiger-stripe?

On a positive note, I like the rough-side-out boots everyone is going to. 

Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: PHall on May 25, 2011, 02:59:53 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on May 25, 2011, 02:08:43 AM
The USAF requirement for all servicemembers to be in ABU's is Novemberish/ End of Third Fiscal Quarter. After that date, it'll take a minimum of a year to start an offical phase-in of ABU's, but that is in a best of case situation.

The USAF requirement is September 30, 2011.  The AF has said in the past that when they have all of their people in the ABU that CAP would then be allowed to wear it.
From what I have heard/seen, the only stumbling block right now is how "our" insignia will differ from the USAF.
We still have to figure out what we want and then we have to get it approved by the AF.
But the AF has said in the past that they want us in the ABU.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: PHall on May 25, 2011, 03:01:13 AM
Quote from: anonymous former c/col on May 25, 2011, 02:36:50 AM
This comment shouldn't raise a stink.  Maybe I should attach some kinda warning, disclaimer, or somethin':

Anyone else wonder why the AF picked tiger-stripe?
On a positive note, I like the rough-side-out boots everyone is going to.

Because the Chief of Staff liked Tiger Stripe. Next question.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: davidsinn on May 25, 2011, 03:05:27 AM
I don't particularly care when we get them, I just hope we have a nice long phase in. Say five years?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Abdomina on May 25, 2011, 03:48:55 AM
I want it imediatly, as i love ABUs
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: NM SAR on May 25, 2011, 01:14:29 PM
seems to me that we'd be better off going entirely to Blue BDUs; ABUs are more expensive, and come with the added cost of a new pair of vomit-green boots.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SARDOC on May 25, 2011, 01:22:32 PM
Quote from: NM SAR on May 25, 2011, 01:14:29 PM
seems to me that we'd be better off going entirely to Blue BDUs; ABUs are more expensive, and come with the added cost of a new pair of vomit-green boots.

Agreed.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Abdomina on May 25, 2011, 01:38:57 PM
One reason that cadets join is becuase of our uniforms and they look like the military, if i was a new cadet i wouldnt want to wear BBDUs
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: MSG Mac on May 25, 2011, 02:44:00 PM
The same thing happened when we transistioned from green fatigues/utility uniforms to BDU's Everybody was in the new uniform before the ink was dry on the announcement.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: davidsinn on May 25, 2011, 03:00:36 PM
Quote from: Abdomina on May 25, 2011, 03:48:55 AM
I want it imediatly, as i love ABUs

That's the nice thing about phase in periods. You can have it the day it goes into effect but I can continue to issue BDUs to my cadets until we run out and they wear out.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Major Carrales on May 25, 2011, 03:18:16 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on May 25, 2011, 03:00:36 PM
Quote from: Abdomina on May 25, 2011, 03:48:55 AM
I want it imediatly, as i love ABUs

That's the nice thing about phase in periods. You can have it the day it goes into effect but I can continue to issue BDUs to my cadets until we run out and they wear out.

I like that as well. 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: BillB on May 25, 2011, 03:38:34 PM
ABUs are more expensive, and come with the added cost of a new pair of vomit-green boots.

Where does it say that CAP when switching to ABU has to wear the green boots? Some USAF duty positions are authorized black leather boots. There is no reason that CAP couldn't request to continue to wear black boots. Besides it would make the CAP uniform more distinctive.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on May 25, 2011, 04:06:09 PM
Quote from: BillB on May 25, 2011, 03:38:34 PM
ABUs are more expensive, and come with the added cost of a new pair of vomit-green boots.

Where does it say that CAP when switching to ABU has to wear the green boots? Some USAF duty positions are authorized black leather boots. There is no reason that CAP couldn't request to continue to wear black boots. Besides it would make the CAP uniform more distinctive.
Oh, please God no. I have seen that, and it is hideous. I would rather the tan boots for distinctiveness. It allows for a distinctive appearance and gives the same sort of boot that is field friendly, and the smooth leather boot while water proof (if polished properly) is not very field friendly as the tiniest thing scratches them.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: MIKE on May 25, 2011, 04:19:46 PM
Black boots was a temporary thing for maintenance people.  IIRC there are green boots out now that are more resistant to fuels and lubricants.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Eclipse on May 25, 2011, 04:20:40 PM
CAP will never see ABU's.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: lordmonar on May 25, 2011, 04:30:31 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 25, 2011, 01:37:18 AM
In 5 years no one will be wearing ABUs.

And to use your catch phrase....Cite please?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Eclipse on May 25, 2011, 04:37:06 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 25, 2011, 04:30:31 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 25, 2011, 01:37:18 AM
In 5 years no one will be wearing ABUs.

And to use your catch phrase....Cite please?

Obviously you can't cite an opinion, beyond providing common sense observations.

Somebody new jumps on and says "I heard..."  then we all spend time discussing the where and when, despite the fact that the USAF is in the process of phasing out or replacing ABU's for a lot of Airmen in theater and the DOD is looking at going back to a combined field combat uniform for all the services.  Add to that the fact that the ABU is by no means a universally "loved" uniform by those who wear it every day.

We all know there is no need for a new uniform, a lot of wings are swimming in BDU's to the point that they can't give them away, and despite the assertions of a few people who apparently have neither Google or a phone, there is no shortage of availability of BDU's in the retail space (especially considering that at least two US branches are still wearing them right now).  Those people who cite that they can't get them at AAFES or MCSS ignore the fact that 80% of the membership don't even know what those acronyms mean, and most are more upset about the shutdown of the
other vendor they thought was the official source for uniforms.

Further, with proper care, a set of BDU's, whatever the color, will last for years.  Most members wear them a calendar day or two in a given month (considering a few hours a week, a couple times a month).  I have sets in the closet that still have a single white bar on one collar that look like they
just came from store, and those were actually used for real missions, encampments, and regular meetings for several years.

By the time CAP gets around to the consideration of a new field uniform, assuming they do, ABU's will not exist in their current form.

CAP will never get ABU's.

Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Ned on May 25, 2011, 05:53:02 PM
As a guy who just spent over 90 minutes in a National Uniform Committee conference call, I gotta say that we as an organization have a remarkable "lack of consensus" on uniform issues.

It seems that everyone has strong opinions and no two opinions seem to be the same.  And everyone is convinced that anyone else's vision is unprofessional, silly, or worse.

I did a couple of decades plus in Army uniforms, including two major transitions - from OD fatigues to BDUs; and from BDUs to ACUs.  We certainly spent our fair share of time grousing about uniforms (especially the beret), but somehow the diversity of opinions and angst level amongst CAP members seems several orders of magnitude higher.

Any ideas why that is so?  Is it just the nature of the "paid vs. unpaid professional" status?  Army folks get issued some of their uniforms and/or paid an allowance, but usually spend significant amounts of their own money on uniforms and supplies (including matching doodads and trinkets).  CAP members typically pay a much higher percentage of their uniform costs.  Could that "investment" be responsible for the stronger uniform opinion diversity?

As others have pointed out, here on CAPTalk there are more posts on uniforms that ES and CP added together.

It's a very strange phenomena, to be sure.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AngelWings on May 25, 2011, 06:37:34 PM
Quote from: anonymous former c/col on May 25, 2011, 02:36:50 AM
This comment shouldn't raise a stink.  Maybe I should attach some kinda warning, disclaimer, or somethin':

Anyone else wonder why the AF picked tiger-stripe?

On a positive note, I like the rough-side-out boots everyone is going to.
They pciked tigerstripe because they wanted to look different. Guess what the ABU looks: diferent.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: lordmonar on May 25, 2011, 06:50:49 PM
I'm sure that personal investment is one of the issues.

No one likes the idea of having to shell out $200 to get new ABU's (if we ever get them).

I also think that there are several other elements running here.

You have the ex-military type who absolutely hate the idea of "wannabees" wearing their uniform, especially if they are fat and fuzzy.
You have the ex-military type who spent 20+ years being told what to wear and don't want anything to do with uniforms of any sort.
Then you have the supposed "corporate" types who seem bent to do anything and everything to move us away from the USAF.

Then add the ideal that CAP members at a certain level think that they absolutely must have a say in things.  That no matter what the issue is their view will be the one to carry the day....and they will do everything they can to stop anything else from moving forward.

Then there is the simple fact that people don't like to get anyone mad at them....or at least their clique.  Lt CoL X and his buddies like the aviators and polos and he does not want to make them upset by making wear blues/CSUs/Pink Tutus.

Then add the strangeness of our governance system......no matter what the unifrom committee does....it then has to go before the 50+ members of the NB who bring all the same sort of attitudes to the table.

I would not want your job.....unless I was in charge and only had 4-5 people on the committee.
The Uniform Committee should have on Representative from the NB, one from the BoG, one from the CAP-USAF, Legal, CP, AE and Operations.

Quick dirty and straight forward.

Job one would be to fix/correct 39-1 as it exists today.
Job two is to resolve the multiforms of our organisation.
Then they can address changes to specific uniform combos and/or requests from the field.

As someone said on CS....they need to fix the existing problems instead of adding new unifrom combinations.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: EMT-83 on May 25, 2011, 07:24:56 PM
You missed another category: those of us who honestly don't give a crap, and will wear what we're told to.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RVT on May 25, 2011, 07:36:03 PM
Quote from: Ned on May 25, 2011, 05:53:02 PMAs a guy who just spent over 90 minutes in a National Uniform Committee conference call, I gotta say that we as an organization have a remarkable "lack of consensus" on uniform issues.  It seems that everyone has strong opinions and no two opinions seem to be the same.  And everyone is convinced that anyone else's vision is unprofessional, silly, or worse.  As others have pointed out, here on CAPTalk there are more posts on uniforms that ES and CP added together. It's a very strange phenomena, to be sure.

I would think it is largely because we have a full range of corporate uniforms.  We aren't debating how to wear USAF uniforms, just our own stuff.

The Coast Guard Aux doesn't have these discussions because except for one polo shirt with a very specific purpose they have no equivalent to our corporate uniforms.  They don't want or need them because the overweight members with beards.....wear Coast Guard Uniforms.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: lordmonar on May 25, 2011, 07:36:32 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on May 25, 2011, 07:24:56 PM
You missed another category: those of us who honestly don't give a crap, and will wear what we're told to.
Those of us that give a crap.......but will wear what we're told to.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RVT on May 25, 2011, 07:52:55 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on May 25, 2011, 07:24:56 PMYou missed another category: those of us who honestly don't give a crap, and will wear what we're told to.

And the more common category.  Those  who honestly don't give a crap, and will wear whatever they want to.  People seem to really care about uniforms on CAPTALK - but not in any real life situation I have seen in the 11 months I've been back.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: DogCollar on May 25, 2011, 07:59:43 PM
Ned...God Bless You!  I know that I wouldn't have been able to have been on that conference call that you described for 90 seconds, much less 90 minutes.

Uniforms...ah yes.  I usually don't get involved in these discussions.  I do find them fascinating however! 

I don't know what camp I might be in, I just know that for me, I joined CAP because of it's missions.  ES, AE and Cadet Program engage me, my interests, and I feel like I am involved in something that is important for our nation.  To me, form should follow function.  That means, do the uniforms of CAP support and enhance the missions that CAP performs?

While it would be nice to be able to get all members wearing like uniforms, it's not likely to happen.  I would rather see uniformity in function, than in exact style.  For example...shouldn't all flight teams be in flight suits?  Shouldn't all ground team member be in BDU's or BBDU's?  All cadets and adults who are involved in Cadet Programs should establish a "uniform of the day" and everyone be in that "style" uniform.

In short, a small victory would be some regulations guiding members to wear what "style" uniform when...be it an Air Force style uniform or it's Corporate counterpart...everyone performing the same "function" in the same "style" uniform.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: davidsinn on May 25, 2011, 08:05:57 PM
Quote from: Ned on May 25, 2011, 05:53:02 PM
As a guy who just spent over 90 minutes in a National Uniform Committee conference call, I gotta say that we as an organization have a remarkable "lack of consensus" on uniform issues.


I have to ask: was anything actually accomplished during this call or was it a verbal version of a CT uniform thread? In other words, was a consensus reached on anything or a decision made on anything?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on May 25, 2011, 08:25:34 PM
ABUs will likely be gone before we ever get the chance to have them... unless we get them from the AF because they don't want them now because they are switching to the MPU (multi-purpose uniform), more commonly referred to as multi-cam. Even the Army is usit in Afghanistan now, and it will likely become the new standard for all branches, I hope.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Ned on May 25, 2011, 08:47:53 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on May 25, 2011, 08:05:57 PM
I have to ask: was anything actually accomplished during this call or was it a verbal version of a CT uniform thread? In other words, was a consensus reached on anything or a decision made on anything?

This call was just one of many as the committee moves toward consensus on a unified policy to present to the NB in August.  I think it is safe to say that progress is made during each one of these calls.  But no huge paradigm shifts are currently on the table.

IOW, I've been on hundreds of committees between work, church, and CAP.  Some have small tasks to accomplish, some have large and more complex tasks.  The Uniform Committee has a large and complex task before it and is moving methodically through it.

And a committee moving methodically can seem downright dull at times, but that doesn't mean that the work isn't getting done.

Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RiverAux on May 25, 2011, 08:49:46 PM
Quote from: RVT on May 25, 2011, 07:36:03 PM
I would think it is largely because we have a full range of corporate uniforms.  We aren't debating how to wear USAF uniforms, just our own stuff.

The Coast Guard Aux doesn't have these discussions because except for one polo shirt with a very specific purpose they have no equivalent to our corporate uniforms.  They don't want or need them because the overweight members with beards.....wear Coast Guard Uniforms.
Exactly right.  Since the Aux leadership has absolutely no control over Aux uniforms and since there are only minor distinctions between CG and CG Aux uniforms, we generally only change when the CG changes and you get remarkably stable uniform regulations that are easy to understand. 

If we returned to a single AF-style uniform for all CAP members and eliminated all civilian-style and corporate uniforms, all the "angst" would be gone quite quickly.

Of course we would still have problems with people wearing the uniform incorrectly (CG Aux isn't immune from that), but it would sure be easier to fix when everyone knows the regs and they are relatively stable.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AngelWings on May 25, 2011, 09:00:51 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 25, 2011, 08:25:34 PM
ABUs will likely be gone before we ever get the chance to have them... unless we get them from the AF because they don't want them now because they are switching to the MPU (multi-purpose uniform), more commonly referred to as multi-cam. Even the Army is usit in Afghanistan now, and it will likely become the new standard for all branches, I hope.
It isn't effective for much more environments than tree's and Afghanistan. It was designed to specifically fit into the Afghan enivornment. The ABU was, with speculation and a little opinion involved here, a uniform to be close enough to look like the US Army, but be different enough to look like more than a tiger-stripe copy. It is theatre wear, not everyday wear. It'd make us look weird, and would be a lot harder to get the USAF to let us wear. Lastly, the ABU generally is a well fitting uniform for us. It has a few extra pockets, comes pre-creased and is wash and wear, but still would look professional, and the sage green boots would be an improvement from black, mainly because black boots are calf skin leather, which shows alot of signs of wear.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: NCRblues on May 25, 2011, 09:18:20 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 25, 2011, 06:50:49 PM
I'm sure that personal investment is one of the issues.

No one likes the idea of having to shell out $200 to get new ABU's (if we ever get them).

I also think that there are several other elements running here.

You have the ex-military type who absolutely hate the idea of "wannabees" wearing their uniform, especially if they are fat and fuzzy.
You have the ex-military type who spent 20+ years being told what to wear and don't want anything to do with uniforms of any sort.
Then you have the supposed "corporate" types who seem bent to do anything and everything to move us away from the USAF.

Then add the ideal that CAP members at a certain level think that they absolutely must have a say in things.  That no matter what the issue is their view will be the one to carry the day....and they will do everything they can to stop anything else from moving forward.

Then there is the simple fact that people don't like to get anyone mad at them....or at least their clique.  Lt CoL X and his buddies like the aviators and polos and he does not want to make them upset by making wear blues/CSUs/Pink Tutus.

Then add the strangeness of our governance system......no matter what the unifrom committee does....it then has to go before the 50+ members of the NB who bring all the same sort of attitudes to the table.

I would not want your job.....unless I was in charge and only had 4-5 people on the committee.
The Uniform Committee should have on Representative from the NB, one from the BoG, one from the CAP-USAF, Legal, CP, AE and Operations.

Quick dirty and straight forward.

Job one would be to fix/correct 39-1 as it exists today.
Job two is to resolve the multiforms of our organisation.
Then they can address changes to specific uniform combos and/or requests from the field.

As someone said on CS....they need to fix the existing problems instead of adding new unifrom combinations.

You also forgot people like me, ex-military, who loves the USAF connection and uniform, and wants EVERYONE in a USAF style...
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RADIOMAN015 on May 25, 2011, 10:30:12 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on May 25, 2011, 09:18:20 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 25, 2011, 06:50:49 PM
I'm sure that personal investment is one of the issues.

No one likes the idea of having to shell out $200 to get new ABU's (if we ever get them).


Quick dirty and straight forward.

Job one would be to fix/correct 39-1 as it exists today.
Job two is to resolve the multiforms of our organisation.
Then they can address changes to specific uniform combos and/or requests from the field.

As someone said on CS....they need to fix the existing problems instead of adding new unifrom combinations.

You also forgot people like me, ex-military, who loves the USAF connection and uniform, and wants EVERYONE in a USAF style...
I think even the AF has a problem differentiating itself when wearing the new ABU's/ACU's etc from everyone else that is wearing them.  Frankly I can't tell the difference (cause I really don't care anyways).  I also think they got carried away by even having office workers wear this uniform all the time.  I would think 1 day a week as "warrior day" would be fine.

The issue with a CIVIL AIR PATROL field uniform is can it EFFECTIVELY distinguish us from others when performing assigned voluntary "Mission For America" ???  From a public relations standpoint we've achieved this when ANYONE in the public see us in uniform and state there goes CIVIL AIR PATROL.  We definitely aren't going to get this done with BDU's or ACU's. 

I think it's easy to see which way many of the NB will vote just based upon the uniforms they are wearing to the meeting.  Should prove to be interesting in the future to see what changes (if any) will occur.
RM   
I think mature adult members join Civil Air Patrol because of its' missions and uniforms are not a primary factor in joining or staying in CAP.  In fact I think most military retirees aren't really that interested in the CAP military uniform option unless they've got some uniforms right after coming off of active duty.

One thing is for sure the ABU's/ACU's are made for going to war.  CAP is not a combat command per federal law and the AF's implementing regulations, therefore any of our uniforms should allows us to be readily seen and identified as non combat participants as Civil Air Patrol volunteer members.
RM       
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Ned on May 25, 2011, 10:36:58 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 25, 2011, 10:30:12 PM
I think even the AF has a problem differentiating itself when wearing the new ABU's/ACU's etc from everyone else that is wearing them.  Frankly I can't tell the difference (cause I really don't care anyways).  I also think they got carried away by even having office workers wear this uniform all the time.  I would think 1 day a week as "warrior day" would be fine.

I may be wrong, but I don't think Gen Schwarz follows CAPTalk and may not get the benefit of your advice.

You can email him off of this page (http://www.af.mil/information/csaf/index.asp).

Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: HGjunkie on May 25, 2011, 10:46:48 PM

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 25, 2011, 10:30:12 PM
I think even the AF has a problem differentiating itself when wearing the new ABU's/ACU's etc from everyone else that is wearing them.  Frankly I can't tell the difference (cause I really don't care anyways).  I also think they got carried away by even having office workers wear this uniform all the time.  I would think 1 day a week as "warrior day" would be fine.
ACU is spotted, ABU is striped. Not hard to tell them apart.

Quote
The issue with a CIVIL AIR PATROL field uniform is can it EFFECTIVELY distinguish us from others when performing assigned voluntary "Mission For America" ???  From a public relations standpoint we've achieved this when ANYONE in the public see us in uniform and state there goes CIVIL AIR PATROL.  We definitely aren't going to get this done with BDU's or ACU's. 
How does wearing BDUs detract from the ability for someone to tell we're not CAP?

QuoteOne thing is for sure the ABU's/ACU's are made for going to war.  CAP is not a combat command per federal law and the AF's implementing regulations, therefore any of our uniforms should allows us to be readily seen and identified as non combat participants as Civil Air Patrol volunteer members.
Well, really, I would venture to say few police depts. that wear BDU style uniforms are combat commands either.

And i'm pretty sure it's easy to distinguish these guys:
(http://www.iawgcap.com/images/Slider_ES.jpg)

From these guys:
(http://epcounty.com/CS/blogs/sheriff_news/WindowsLiveWriter/SearchRescueTeamrescue17yearoldafterfall_12871/DSC02743.jpg)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: titanII on May 25, 2011, 11:01:33 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on May 25, 2011, 10:46:48 PM

(http://www.iawgcap.com/images/Slider_ES.jpg)

Do you know which wing this is? the cadet on the far left looks eerily like what my flight sergeant must have looked like several years ago
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: MIKE on May 25, 2011, 11:21:32 PM
Link points to IAWG... Plus I don't know of any CH-47 units in or around MA.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: NCRblues on May 25, 2011, 11:23:17 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 25, 2011, 10:30:12 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on May 25, 2011, 09:18:20 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 25, 2011, 06:50:49 PM
I'm sure that personal investment is one of the issues.

No one likes the idea of having to shell out $200 to get new ABU's (if we ever get them).


Quick dirty and straight forward.

Job one would be to fix/correct 39-1 as it exists today.
Job two is to resolve the multiforms of our organisation.
Then they can address changes to specific uniform combos and/or requests from the field.

As someone said on CS....they need to fix the existing problems instead of adding new unifrom combinations.

You also forgot people like me, ex-military, who loves the USAF connection and uniform, and wants EVERYONE in a USAF style...
I think even the AF has a problem differentiating itself when wearing the new ABU's/ACU's etc from everyone else that is wearing them.  Frankly I can't tell the difference (cause I really don't care anyways).  I also think they got carried away by even having office workers wear this uniform all the time.  I would think 1 day a week as "warrior day" would be fine.

The issue with a CIVIL AIR PATROL field uniform is can it EFFECTIVELY distinguish us from others when performing assigned voluntary "Mission For America" ???  From a public relations standpoint we've achieved this when ANYONE in the public see us in uniform and state there goes CIVIL AIR PATROL.  We definitely aren't going to get this done with BDU's or ACU's. 

I think it's easy to see which way many of the NB will vote just based upon the uniforms they are wearing to the meeting.  Should prove to be interesting in the future to see what changes (if any) will occur.
RM   
I think mature adult members join Civil Air Patrol because of its' missions and uniforms are not a primary factor in joining or staying in CAP.  In fact I think most military retirees aren't really that interested in the CAP military uniform option unless they've got some uniforms right after coming off of active duty.

One thing is for sure the ABU's/ACU's are made for going to war.  CAP is not a combat command per federal law and the AF's implementing regulations, therefore any of our uniforms should allows us to be readily seen and identified as non combat participants as Civil Air Patrol volunteer members.
RM       

Speaking as a very recent former active duty AF member, the AF and Army can tell each other apart... they are all issued a MRK - 1 eyeball from the supply in the sky....

Your hate of anything connected to the military is well noted, thanks for stopping by, have a nice day
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: HGjunkie on May 26, 2011, 12:56:12 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on May 25, 2011, 11:23:17 PM
The AF and Army can tell each other apart... they are all issued a MRK - 1 eyeball from the supply in the sky....

Awesome.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RADIOMAN015 on May 26, 2011, 01:36:40 AM
Quote from: MIKE on May 25, 2011, 11:21:32 PM
Link points to IAWG... Plus I don't know of any CH-47 units in or around MA.
Bradley International Airport, Windsor Locks CT has a CH47 detachment (6 CH 47's)
RM
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: titanII on May 26, 2011, 02:13:43 AM
Quote from: MIKE on May 25, 2011, 11:21:32 PM
Link points to IAWG... Plus I don't know of any CH-47 units in or around MA.
ahhh, too bad.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on May 26, 2011, 02:47:11 AM
That is one problem some people have with CAP Radioman, people who don't care about those who we are affiliated with. Try to care a bit, please?

The MPU was not designed just for Afghanistan, that is the "woodland pattern" of the MPU, there is also a desert and a snow and urban pattern for the MPU. Having a uniform that can be altered for the needed environment is the best way to make a uniform, this one pattern for all environments is malarkey. You cannot make a single pattern that works in all environments. Just to make the ACU blend in with Iraq, you have to get it dirty a few times and wash it in nasty dirty water to make sure the dirt stains the fabric. If you ask me, someone who has been in both Iraq and Afghanistan as a combatant, the MPU is the best idea any one has had since the beginning of field uniforms. 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: abdsp51 on May 28, 2011, 03:04:34 PM
Had a sit down with the CMSGTAF and he said there is not anything in the works right now for ABU replacement.  This new pattern everyone is yaking about is the pattern meant for Afghanistan for the Army and the AF and is meant for outside the wire missions.  He did say that there is going to be a lighter weight ABU coming out.  Now a question I pose to you guys are do you have that inside info to the CSAF or the CMSGTAF to get your info from or is it just rumors circulating?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: PHall on May 28, 2011, 03:13:05 PM
And before somebody asks, CMSGTAF stands for Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force.
The "real" rank abbreviation is CMSgtAF.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: davidsinn on May 28, 2011, 03:15:20 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 28, 2011, 03:04:34 PM
Had a sit down with the CMSGTAF and he said there is not anything in the works right now for ABU replacement.  This new pattern everyone is yaking about is the pattern meant for Afghanistan for the Army and the AF and is meant for outside the wire missions.  He did say that there is going to be a lighter weight ABU coming out.  Now a question I pose to you guys are do you have that inside info to the CSAF or the CMSGTAF to get your info from or is it just rumors circulating?

The AF may not have any plans for it but I have read multiple news reports that the congress wants to ram it in. It's a waste of money for each service to create it's own uniform.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: abdsp51 on May 28, 2011, 03:20:43 PM
To correct myself and PHall the correct abbreviation is CMSAF.  And congress needs to focus more on getting a budget approved for the next fiscal year before trying to ram uniform changes down the services throats.  IMO until there is something announced through appropriate channels then any inkling of a new uniform is rumor mill.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: ol'fido on May 28, 2011, 07:07:00 PM
Don't we have about SIX other threads discussing this??? :o
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AngelWings on May 28, 2011, 08:44:29 PM
Quote from: ol'fido on May 28, 2011, 07:07:00 PM
Don't we have about SIX other threads discussing this??? :o
Yes. But who cares, we are an disorganized organization  ;)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on May 28, 2011, 09:21:33 PM
As I've said before, I doubt anyone who isn't visually or intellectually challenged can tell the difference:

(http://www.squadron284.org/uniformsbdus.gif)
(http://www.uniformnametape.com/ProductImages/lrgcap01.bmp)
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQAodB7wN-z15TGls35NE2Iks1uF90o4XOG3FmZPFQChok7spHw5A)
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQEoQRnYfgRC4auvJovXstcHOVehKGk8GoV0eaDc9MIlPLwpVj8zg)
(http://www.mdsp.org/images/Uniforms/camo.jpg)
(Maryland State Police)

I suspect this is just another opportunity friend RM is seizing upon to express his oft-stated desire to get CAP out of anything resembling a military uniform and into this:

(http://therubicon.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/leffy2-208x300.jpg)

(no disrespect intended to the fine folk of the Salvation Army)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AngelWings on May 31, 2011, 08:56:13 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 25, 2011, 04:37:06 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 25, 2011, 04:30:31 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 25, 2011, 01:37:18 AM
In 5 years no one will be wearing ABUs.

And to use your catch phrase....Cite please?

(especially considering that at least two US branches are still wearing them right now).
There are actually 4.
The USAF, the USN, the USCG (I bought a BDU top from a local unit), and the PHSCC.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: lordmonar on May 31, 2011, 11:33:53 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on May 28, 2011, 03:15:20 PMThe AF may not have any plans for it but I have read multiple news reports that the congress wants to ram it in. It's a waste of money for each service to create it's own uniform.
And it is a waste of money for congress to force a change for no other reason then "everyone needs to be the same".  Cost savings at this point from consolidation would not make a dent in the loss of all the money and R&D that has been spend to date.

Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: mclarke on June 01, 2011, 12:30:22 AM
Simple response: I have spoke to National about this. They will not even ask/consider ABUs untill the phase out of the USAF is completed. In other words, until 2012 there will be no mention of consideration for CAP to wear the ABUs. Anything you hear about us wearing ABUs prior to 2012 will just be a rumor.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on June 01, 2011, 12:33:21 AM
Quote from: mclarke on June 01, 2011, 12:30:22 AM
Simple response: I have spoke to National about this. They will not even ask/consider ABUs untill the phase out of the USAF is completed. In other words, until 2012 there will be no mention of consideration for CAP to wear the ABUs. Anything you hear about us wearing ABUs prior to 2012 will just be a rumor.

From the words of a 2nd Lt no less! :P

I don't think anyone is saying any of this is official banter. Just ideas being tossed around. We've all been waiting long enough for it to happen...ever since 2007 when the changes were announced.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: BGNightfall on June 01, 2011, 12:34:08 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 31, 2011, 11:33:53 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on May 28, 2011, 03:15:20 PMThe AF may not have any plans for it but I have read multiple news reports that the congress wants to ram it in. It's a waste of money for each service to create it's own uniform.
And it is a waste of money for congress to force a change for no other reason then "everyone needs to be the same".  Cost savings at this point from consolidation would not make a dent in the loss of all the money and R&D that has been spend to date.

That depends... if they roll in a DoD-wide combat uniform before the Navy begins work on its second replacement for the DCU (apparently the Type 2/3 NWU are only for special operations types), and before the Army gets too invested in its newest round of combat uniform redesigns (currently in the development phase), then there may be a fair amount of savings to be had for the tax payer.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: PHall on June 01, 2011, 07:01:55 AM
Quote from: mclarke on June 01, 2011, 12:30:22 AM
Simple response: I have spoke to National about this. They will not even ask/consider ABUs untill the phase out of the USAF is completed. In other words, until 2012 there will be no mention of consideration for CAP to wear the ABUs. Anything you hear about us wearing ABUs prior to 2012 will just be a rumor.

Funny, GEN Courter said something totally different this last weekend. I think I'll go with what the General said.

And what she said is that the CAP-USAF/CC will send a request up the chain this week asking when we can expect to be authorized to wear the ABU.
The mandatory wear date for the Air Force is 1 Oct 2011. And the supply system is fully caught up with demand.
She expects to have an answer before the National Boards in August.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: jimmydeanno on June 01, 2011, 05:57:44 PM
I really think that the supply "issue" isn't an issue at all.  I think that there is an assumption from the AF higher ups that authorizing CAP to wear ABUs will result in 60K+ sets (people will buy more than one set) flying off the MCSS shelves on day 1, creating some sort of shortage that will result in their Airmen being unable to replace their uniforms.

In reality, it'll be a slow phase in anyway as most units aren't near an MCSS, some will purchase from online vendors, etc.

Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: PHall on June 01, 2011, 06:14:30 PM
The "supply issue" was one of the reasons why the Air Force asked us to wait.
And during the first couple of years of the ABU conversion there were some major supply issues.
Congress inserted a "buy American" clause in the DoD Authorization bill which resulted in a couple of suppliers being decertified.
So yeah, for awhile there were shortages in the more popular sizes.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: NCRblues on June 01, 2011, 06:42:09 PM
Quote from: PHall on June 01, 2011, 06:14:30 PM
The "supply issue" was one of the reasons why the Air Force asked us to wait.
And during the first couple of years of the ABU conversion there were some major supply issues.
Congress inserted a "buy American" clause in the DoD Authorization bill which resulted in a couple of suppliers being decertified.
So yeah, for awhile there were shortages in the more popular sizes.

It was in such short supply i literally played tug O' war with a e-7 as an e-4 on lackland for pants in my size....  ;D
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: HGjunkie on June 01, 2011, 08:02:35 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on June 01, 2011, 06:42:09 PM
It was in such short supply i literally played tug O' war with a e-7 as an e-4 on lackland for pants in my size....  ;D

Should have gotten a video.  ;D
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on June 01, 2011, 08:10:49 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on June 01, 2011, 06:42:09 PM
Quote from: PHall on June 01, 2011, 06:14:30 PM
The "supply issue" was one of the reasons why the Air Force asked us to wait.
And during the first couple of years of the ABU conversion there were some major supply issues.
Congress inserted a "buy American" clause in the DoD Authorization bill which resulted in a couple of suppliers being decertified.
So yeah, for awhile there were shortages in the more popular sizes.

It was in such short supply i literally played tug O' war with a e-7 as an e-4 on lackland for pants in my size....  ;D

Who won!?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: NCRblues on June 01, 2011, 08:23:00 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on June 01, 2011, 08:10:49 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on June 01, 2011, 06:42:09 PM
Quote from: PHall on June 01, 2011, 06:14:30 PM
The "supply issue" was one of the reasons why the Air Force asked us to wait.
And during the first couple of years of the ABU conversion there were some major supply issues.
Congress inserted a "buy American" clause in the DoD Authorization bill which resulted in a couple of suppliers being decertified.
So yeah, for awhile there were shortages in the more popular sizes.

It was in such short supply i literally played tug O' war with a e-7 as an e-4 on lackland for pants in my size....  ;D

Who won!?

We pulled back and forth to a standstill... then he pulled rank.....  :-\

I was ANGRY...i had the top, undershirts, boots, and abu colors name tapes...but no dang pants....  >:D
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Eclipse on June 01, 2011, 08:29:12 PM
Are you guys still talking about this?

I already told you, CAP will never get ABU's....
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: HGjunkie on June 01, 2011, 08:32:21 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on June 01, 2011, 08:23:00 PM
I was ANGRY...i had the top, undershirts, boots, and abu colors name tapes...but no dang pants....  >:D

You should have shown up to work wearing everything but the pants and put long-johns on...  :P
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AngelWings on June 01, 2011, 08:36:16 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 01, 2011, 08:29:12 PM
Are you guys still talking about this?

I already told you, CAP will never get ABU's....
Unoptomistic I see... Come in here and kill all of our fun  :clap:  :-[
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 01, 2011, 08:50:40 PM
Quote from: Littleguy on June 01, 2011, 08:36:16 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 01, 2011, 08:29:12 PM
Are you guys still talking about this?

I already told you, CAP will never get ABU's....
Unoptomistic I see... Come in here and kill all of our fun  :clap:  :-[

Not unoptimistic...just realistic.  I sure don't have an expected place in my uniform closet for a set of ABU's with CAP insignia.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: sab163 on June 01, 2011, 08:55:30 PM
if it happens then it happens, and if it don't then it don't.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 01, 2011, 09:06:37 PM
Quote from: sab163 on June 01, 2011, 08:55:30 PM
if it happens then it happens, and if it don't then it don't.

That's about as good as I could put it.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on June 01, 2011, 09:10:10 PM
Quote from: sab163 on June 01, 2011, 08:55:30 PM
if it happens then it happens, and if it don't then it don't.

The problem is, we'll look like a MESS during the transition. And if we start getting them say...2012, and it's phased OUT by 2016 for a DoD outfit...what a mess that will be...
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: sab163 on June 01, 2011, 09:16:31 PM
The problem is, we'll look like a MESS during the transition. And if we start getting them say...2012, and it's phased OUT by 2016 for a DoD outfit...what a mess that will be...
[/quote]

Should we get them and they are phased out, we could keep them as an alt uniform instead of the BBDUs
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 01, 2011, 09:30:03 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on June 01, 2011, 09:10:10 PM
The problem is, we'll look like a MESS during the transition. And if we start getting them say...2012, and it's phased OUT by 2016 for a DoD outfit...what a mess that will be...

I'm going to wait for something in writing from the chaps/chapesses with egg on their caps before I lay any money out.

I'm doubly conscious of that since the CSU phase-out fiasco.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on June 02, 2011, 03:32:31 AM
Quote from: sab163 on June 01, 2011, 09:16:31 PM
The problem is, we'll look like a MESS during the transition. And if we start getting them say...2012, and it's phased OUT by 2016 for a DoD outfit...what a mess that will be...

Should we get them and they are phased out, we could keep them as an alt uniform instead of the BBDUs


From what supply? Even less companies produce ABUs than did BDUs...
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: NM SAR on June 02, 2011, 04:18:18 AM
in the unlikely event that they do show up for CAP, I'm waiting for the drop-dead must-wear-by date.....those things are expensive
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: davidsinn on June 02, 2011, 04:25:12 AM
Quote from: NM SAR on June 02, 2011, 04:18:18 AM
in the unlikely event that they do show up for CAP, I'm waiting for the drop-dead must-wear-by date.....those things are expensive

I'm not going to worry about it. I'll just keep wearing my BBDU and hope they let us wear navy blue insignia someday.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: indygreg on June 02, 2011, 10:47:54 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on June 02, 2011, 04:25:12 AM
Quote from: NM SAR on June 02, 2011, 04:18:18 AM
in the unlikely event that they do show up for CAP, I'm waiting for the drop-dead must-wear-by date.....those things are expensive

I'm not going to worry about it. I'll just keep wearing my BBDU and hope they let us wear navy blue insignia someday.

Please let that happen.  That  looks so much better than the ultramarine blue.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: NIN on June 02, 2011, 02:42:28 PM
Y'know, folks get pretty wrapped around the axle on the issue of phase-in dates and the mix-and-match uniforms you'll have during that cutover period.

Having lived thru the pickle suit-to-BDU transition (which, IMHO, was the fastest uniform transition I'd ever seen, military, CAP or otherwise) and the hand-wringing from the "oh my god, our formations won't look uniform, cuz people will wear whatever uniform they have and you know what that means... anarchy!" crowd, I'll just say this, about that:

If it works for the AF, Army, Marines, Navy & Coasties to have a phase in period, and folks can wear whatever uniform they still have as long as its authorized, and none of those services suffered from a complete loss of good order and discipline due to LCpl Snuffy showing up in BDUs, well, it should _probably_ be OK for CAP in the long run.

But thats just me.  Does it still freak me out a little to see people in a formation wearing mix-and-match uniforms? Yeah, sure does.  The Army Dress Greens are still authorized, and people still wear them (ie. ME), and some folks moved right over to Blues (I did, too, but I don't have belted trousers yet).  Ooookay.  Does it bug me to see a group of cadets, some in greens and some in blues? Yep.  Oh well. Eventually, they'll all be in the same uniform. No sweat.  Breathe. :)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Eclipse on June 02, 2011, 02:53:43 PM
Further to your point, CAP will never be uniform anyway, unless we reduce the number of combos and start enforcing
UOD with real effort.

Rare is the gaggle formation of seniors in the same uniform, especially considering that not everyone owns them all,
some own few, and some couldn't get it right if the stuff came factory configured.

Not all cadets have everything either, so in a lot of photos and formations it is a hodge podge of jackets, short sleeves, and some
in the unofficial FNG white shirt / black pants.

The transition time is the least of our worries...
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on June 03, 2011, 12:15:24 AM
Interesting post on CadetStuff:

Quote from: MorrisseyMEnclosed is a message that I have recieved regarding the NWUs, stating that effective JAN-01-2011, the USNSCC will be authorized to wear the Navy Working Uniform. Ignore the first few paragraphs untill you reach "NAVY Work Uniform".


"All Hands,

Policy Info from the NSCC Executive Director:

Addressing the CO/XO

Recently HQTRS was made aware of an issue concerning how a few NLCC commanding officer's are addressed by their crew.

The NLCC syllabus (p. I-27/28) indicates the CO should be addressed by members of the command as "Captain" regardless of COs rank and the XO should be addressed as "Commander" regardless of rank. This is a common practice found at Navy afloat commands. Occasionally you might see the CO addressed the same at a few shore commands, but not usually. Further, the use of this terminology is for members of the COs/XOs crew only. It does not apply to members outside the command. For the CO, "skipper" is also used.

HQTRS has been advised some NLCC COs are demanding they be addressed as "Captain" not only by members of their own command but outsiders as well. This is totally inappropriate. Accordingly, the NLCC syllabus will be changed to delete the requirement to call the CO, "Captain" and the XO, "Commander". The officers serving in both of these positions shall be referred to by their grade. This applies to the NSCC as well.

NAVY Work Uniform

Inquiries have been made to HQTRS whether the Navy Digital/Work Uniform is authorized for NSCC units. This uniform is NOT authorized for NSCC unit wear until after the first of year. Then it will only be authorized for wear if all members of the unit agree to buy the uniform. We do not want to have mixed uniforms and unless all members of the unit agree to purchase the uniform, it is not authorized. There are still plenty of military units that have BDUs of one sort or another available (at no cost) to outfit a unit. Accordingly, we do not want a unit CO trying to pressure cadets to buy the new Navy NDU/Work Uniform.


M.D. Ford
NSCC Executive Director"

Followed by:

Quote from: MorrisseyMUpdate!

Official from National HQ:

http://resources.seacadets.org/action_letter/2011/al2011_01.pdf
Quote
January 26, 2011
NSCC ACTION LETTER 01-11
From: Executive Director, U.S. Naval Sea Cadet Corps
To: See Distribution
Subj: PRELIMINARY GUIDANCE GOVERNING THE WEAR OF THE
NAVY WORKING UNIFORM
Ref: (a) NSCC/NLCC Uniform Manual

1. Purpose. To provide interim guidance for the proper wearing of the Navy Working Uniform
by Officer, Midshipmen, Instructor and NSCC/NLCC Cadet personnel.

2. Discussion. Starting 1 January 2011 the Navy Working Uniform (NWU) was authorized for
wear by members of the Naval Sea Cadet Corps. This approval should not be taken as an
attempt or an encouragement by the National Headquarters for all personnel to transition to
the NWU but only serves as an authorization to wear the uniform. The NWU is an expensive
uniform, approximately $135.00 per set (new), and under no circumstances shall a unit
pressure an individual to buy this uniform. Commanding officers are reminded that All
members of the unit SHALL be in the same uniform; uniformity is paramount. The Navy
Working Uniform is authorized to be worn at all facilities on base, at the assigned drill space,
while doing unit community service activities, while commuting to/from work and home via
POV, public transportation and short stops to conduct errands such as day care centers or to
go to lunch.

3. Action. Pending release of a the new Uniform Manual the following preliminary guidance is
provided to supplement guidance in reference (a):

a. Cap. The NSCC Mini Left Side Flash will be worn by Officers, Midshipmen, Instructors
and NSCC Cadets. The NLCC Mini Flash will be worn by NLCC Cadets. Please note
that rank insignia is NOT worn on the NWU eight point cover.

b. Shirt

1) NSCC. The NSCC mini flashes will be worn by Officers, Midshipmen, Instructors
and NSCC Cadets on each shoulder pocket with eagles facing forward and bottomedge
parallel to the deck. A full-sized left facing NSCC flash will be worn on the left
breast pocket to be sewn over the existing USN Ship/Eagle/Anchor logo.

2) NLCC. The NLCC mini flashes will be worn by NLCC Cadets on the left shoulder
pocket only and bottom-edge parallel to the deck. A full-sized NLCC flash will be
worn on the left breast pocket to be sewn over the existing USN Ship/Eagle/Anchor
logo.

3) Undershirt. Will be blue short-sleeve crew neck only.

4) Name Tapes. Will be worn on all shirts with the name over the right breast pocket
and USNSCC or USNLCC over left breast pocket.

5) Breast Insignia. Strips will be placed directly over the "USNSCC" strip on the left
breast pocket and shall match color and fabric as uniform component and shall be the
length of the width of the pocket. Authorized breast devices are NSCC Silver and
Gold Wings, EOD, SEAL, SWCC or authorized USN warfare device. Unit or
Regional Director's Command Badge(s) are worn in the primary position, over name
strip, or secondary position, on left breast pocket flap, as appropriate. Breast Devices
will be embroidered in silver and/or gold on blue digital pattern as required. No more
than two devices may be worn.

6) Rank Insignia. Collar devices (blue utility tab device) will be worn on both collar
points, by Officers, Midshipmen, Instructors, Chief Petty Officers and NSCC/NLCC
Petty Officers only.

c. Trousers.

1) Name Strip. The appropriate name strip will be worn centered over the right rear
pocket. Gold for Officers, Midshipmen, Instructors, and Chief Petty Officers. Silver
for NSCC Cadets PO1 and below, and NLCC Cadets SLPO and below.

2) Belt. Officers, Midshipmen, Instructors, and Chief Petty Officers, will wear a khaki
web belt with gold tip and buckle. NSCC Cadets PO1 and below and NLCC cadets
SLPO and below will wear a black belt with silver tip and buckle.

d. Footwear. NWU will be worn with a smooth leather black boot with 8 inch or 9 inch
upper. Trouser legs will be bloused to boot tops with blousing bands (not tucked), to
present a neat appearance.

4. Availability. There is a limited amount of the NWUs at the Uniform Depot. Large and extralarge
sizes are not available. NSCC uniform vendors (SPUR-Name strips / SHIP'S STORECollar
devices) have been contacted and have items specific to the NWU uniform available.

5. Cancellation: This action letter will be cancelled upon release of the new Uniform Manual.

M. D. Ford
Distribution:
Headquarters Representatives
Regional Directors
Unit Commanding Officers


Have a fine Navy day!

Not only do they care about Uniformity, they care about costs!
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Spaceman3750 on June 03, 2011, 07:49:19 AM
If they forced something like that onto cap squadrons we would still be in greens.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on June 03, 2011, 12:16:13 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on June 03, 2011, 07:49:19 AM
If they forced something like that onto cap squadrons we would still be in greens.

Forced what? Units to choose to transition? Eventually there are no greens left. :P
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Smokey on June 03, 2011, 06:09:53 PM
Maybe we will get ABUs ,maybe not.  But one thing is for sure.....we need to get rid of ULTRAMARINE BLUE.  Remember the Smurf suits!!!!!!!  Ultramarine blue went out with shag carpeting, advocado appliances and disco.

Navy blue is so much cleaner and modern.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: manfredvonrichthofen on June 03, 2011, 07:15:58 PM
Quote from: Smokey on June 03, 2011, 06:09:53 PM
Maybe we will get ABUs ,maybe not.  But one thing is for sure.....we need to get rid of ULTRAMARINE BLUE.  Remember the Smurf suits!!!!!!!  Ultramarine blue went out with shag carpeting, advocado appliances and disco.

Navy blue is so much cleaner and modern.

Modern doesn't matter with uniforms, except with the Air Force dress uniform, and I don't know why it does. Uniforms are to help display heritage, as well as being functional, there is nothing wrong with the ultra marine nametapes. Navy blue wouldn't really make us look any better, no matter the field uniform other than the BBDUs, with them, the ultra marine looks hideous, other than that, it is a good uniform. I would even want to keep the ultra marine if we were to switch to the ABU, or MPU, or whatever the Air Force decides we should be wearing.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: MIKE on June 03, 2011, 07:45:01 PM
(http://capblog.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/capabu.jpg)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: HGjunkie on June 03, 2011, 08:12:38 PM
(http://www.flyingtigerssurplus.com/images/products/bgNT1011.jpg)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SarDragon on June 03, 2011, 08:18:54 PM
Orange on Black gets my vote.  >:D
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Eclipse on June 03, 2011, 08:37:45 PM
Quote from: MIKE on June 03, 2011, 07:45:01 PM
(http://capblog.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/capabu.jpg)

Captalk has just been set back in time 4 years...
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RiverAux on June 03, 2011, 08:41:53 PM
If we get the chance to switch the nametapes for something that is distinctive, but not as garish, I say to heck with heritage.  US Army still isn't wearing blue uniforms in the field despite that being the standard for over half our history. 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on June 03, 2011, 08:55:55 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 03, 2011, 08:37:45 PM
Quote from: MIKE on June 03, 2011, 07:45:01 PM
(http://capblog.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/capabu.jpg)

Captalk has just been set back in time 4 years...

^^^
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on June 03, 2011, 08:59:43 PM
In the end we'll end up wearing whatever we're told to. :-X
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SARDOC on June 03, 2011, 09:07:00 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 03, 2011, 08:37:45 PM
Captalk has just been set back in time 4 years...


Haha...*trying to snicker to self quietly
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: titanII on June 04, 2011, 01:22:43 AM
What I want to know is, why do people want to change to the ABU besides being concurrent with the Air Force? From what I've read/heard, they're less practical than the BDU's (and in my opinion have a garish camouflage pattern)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Nilsog on June 04, 2011, 01:32:44 AM
Every enlistedman I've talked to said they'd go back to BDUs in a heartbeat. I haven't heard a good review yet.

Personally, I'll wear whatever 39-1 tells me to. And ICLs. And... NHQ messages in eServices ... I think..
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: lordmonar on June 04, 2011, 02:40:22 PM
Quote from: titanII on June 04, 2011, 01:22:43 AM
What I want to know is, why do people want to change to the ABU besides being concurrent with the Air Force? From what I've read/heard, they're less practical than the BDU's (and in my opinion have a garish camouflage pattern)

Less practical?  In a CAP context or a USAF context?

In a CAP ES context the BDU and BBDU are totally worthless.   If we were going for practical we would go the CAWG route with hi-vis shirts and sturdy blue jeans.

Being concurrent with the Air Force should be the only justification we need.  We are their axillary.....we should look like them.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: titanII on June 04, 2011, 02:56:07 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 04, 2011, 02:40:22 PM
Less practical?  In a CAP context or a USAF context?...

Being concurrent with the Air Force should be the only justification we need.  We are their axillary.....we should look like them.
In a general wear contex. And I think that the BDU's look enough like the Air Force- similar, yet different.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: lordmonar on June 04, 2011, 04:23:50 PM
In a general wear context....the ABUs are far superior to the BDUs.

They are wash and wear.   Take them out of the dryer, hang them up and they are good to go.

CAP follow the USAF's lead and just go with name tape, CAP tape and up to two badges.....and we will have a nice uniform....even if we have to keep the while on ultramarine blue color scheme.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: davidsinn on June 04, 2011, 04:57:06 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 04, 2011, 04:23:50 PM
They are wash and wear.   Take them out of the dryer, hang them up and they are good to go.

So are BDUs. I haven't ironed mine in months.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Allen on June 04, 2011, 05:04:28 PM
what do ABU's look like and who uses them? ???
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on June 04, 2011, 05:13:39 PM
Quote from: Allen on June 04, 2011, 05:04:28 PM
what do ABU's look like and who uses them? ???


Go back to page 1 and start reading from there.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Allen on June 04, 2011, 06:21:44 PM
oh i c.....i prefer BDU's i like them alot better
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Smokey on June 04, 2011, 08:13:57 PM
BTW...The reason we have ulatramarine blue (ugh) is because when we were closer to the Air Force (instead of the way we are now) the Air Force greens (pre BDU) had ultramarine tapes (take a look at Viet Nam era AF uniforms).  The AF had no grief with us having uniforms close to theirs.  The blues had dark blue slides, we had blue nameplates. 

So what went wrong.....
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: lordmonar on June 04, 2011, 09:09:27 PM
I don't think anything has gone wrong....I just think that other issues had priority over what color our name tapes were.

I don't think we are farther away from the USAF then before.....I think it is just might seem that way.  The biggest reason why we don't have closer ties to the everyday USAF is because the USAF has lost a lot of money and manpower over the last 20 years....and they just can't support us the way they used to do.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Allen on June 04, 2011, 10:39:57 PM
for clearfication are you allowed 2 wear anyother coloredd shirt with you bdu's other than black
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: davidsinn on June 04, 2011, 10:47:20 PM
Quote from: Allen on June 04, 2011, 10:39:57 PM
for clearfication are you allowed 2 wear anyother coloredd shirt with you bdu's other than black

BDU brown. Not the ones you can buy at Atterbury. They only sell ACU tan ones now. Stick with black. It's cheaper and looks better.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: abdsp51 on June 05, 2011, 02:04:53 AM
The ABU's are far more wash and wear than what the BDU's were. The only thing I care about them are the green boots which are ick and a waste of money.  And so far my ABU's have held up alot longer than my BDU's despite the many washes. 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: titanII on June 05, 2011, 02:26:33 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 04, 2011, 04:23:50 PM
In a general wear context....the ABUs are far superior to the BDUs.

They are wash and wear.   Take them out of the dryer, hang them up and they are good to go.

CAP follow the USAF's lead and just go with name tape, CAP tape and up to two badges.....and we will have a nice uniform....even if we have to keep the while on ultramarine blue color scheme.
As far as maintenance, I do agree that the wash & wear ABU's and the no-shine boots are superior. But that's not wearing them-that's maintaining them. The ABU's are heavier (hotter) than the BDU, and you can't roll the sleeves up. They also lack some of the improvements that the ACU's made (velcro, tilted pockets)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: abdsp51 on June 05, 2011, 03:10:35 PM
Titan you can roll the sleeves up I have and plenty of folks AF wide have as well.  You just have to remove anything in the pen pocket first.  They can be a hotter than the BDU but if you are hydrated that's not an issue.  As with anything it can be improved.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: titanII on June 05, 2011, 03:41:09 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on June 05, 2011, 03:10:35 PM
Titan you can roll the sleeves up I have and plenty of folks AF wide have as well.
well now I look like a fool  lol :P.  But the improvements.. cost money, and us all getting new utility uniforms... costs money. I think that we look close enough to the Air Force- we're in one their most recent utilty uniforms, but we're also distinctive- not in their current utility uniform, different patches, tapes, insignia, etc.  I think that we get by just fine in our current uniform combos. Most of our uniforms- BDU, service dress, etc. are very similar to Air Force Uniforms, but with defining differences.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Eclipse on June 05, 2011, 04:09:20 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/42/Mcn4bb.jpg/303px-Mcn4bb.jpg)

Quote from: titanII on June 05, 2011, 03:41:09 PMwell now I look like a fool  lol :P.  But the improvements.. cost money, and us all getting new utility uniforms... costs money.

All uniforms cost money.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AngelWings on June 05, 2011, 06:21:48 PM
 The problem here, which I've heard happens all of the services, is that certain people want a new uniform because they want the newest thing, while others want to show their age and experience with the old uniform. It is a problem that will always exsist.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Eclipse on June 05, 2011, 06:24:51 PM
Old uniforms show a lot of things, age and experience is neither of them.

Anyone under that misconception is only kidding themselves.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: abdsp51 on June 05, 2011, 06:32:06 PM
Littleguy which is why there are mandatory wear dates and phase out dates.  Having worn the ABU, DCU, and BDU there are some pros and cons to all of them.  In the desert there is no real advantage in either uniform when it comes to heat and humidity.  I liked the BDU because it was easy to shop for, I could get any number or boots in black.  The ABU makes it a lil more difficult especially come Nov when all that can be worn is green boots.  Now I have heard that the AF is going to be implementing a lighter weight ABU for all AFSCs not just firefighters.  Honestly I prefer the ABU over the BDU as it is wash and wear I have more pockets avalible for some things that I didnt have with the BDU. 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Persona non grata on June 05, 2011, 06:37:51 PM
Besides the cool factor we need to look at

Availability
Practicality
Cost
If the USAF could provide free sets to all and replace when needed I would say go for it.  I wish we could use the 5.11 TDU witch is similar to the ACU in regards to cut wear and wash. ;).

By the way they are still producing the wood land BDU ::)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: abdsp51 on June 05, 2011, 07:50:35 PM
USAF quit funding ABUS for deployments.  You'll now get them in basic and what you come out of pocket for.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: ol'fido on June 05, 2011, 10:13:57 PM
With the weather the way it's been around here the last few days, I would go for sandals, navy blue jam shorts, and a bright yellow Hawaiian shirt with Prop-and-Triangles all over it. 8)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AlphaSigOU on June 05, 2011, 10:59:51 PM
Quote from: ol'fido on June 05, 2011, 10:13:57 PM
With the weather the way it's been around here the last few days, I would go for sandals, navy blue jam shorts, and a bright yellow Hawaiian shirt with Prop-and-Triangles all over it. 8)
That's standard attire here on Kwajalein. (T-shirts or aloha shirts (ain't no such thing as a Hawaiian shirt - that's what malihini - tourists - call it), board shorts and 'slippahs'!)The only time you see people wearing long pants and sweaters/jackets is because they work in one of the computer rooms, which are kept always cold. Top it off with a ball cap and/or shades, and you're good to go!  ;D
We don't call it 'Kwajalein BDUs' (Beach Dress Utilities) for nothin'!
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: BillB on June 05, 2011, 11:06:55 PM
AlphaSigOU

Atleast you could wear what you wore in Miami High in Kwajalein. No need to buy new attire.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AlphaSigOU on June 05, 2011, 11:57:27 PM
Quote from: BillB on June 05, 2011, 11:06:55 PM
AlphaSigOU

Atleast you could wear what you wore in Miami High in Kwajalein. No need to buy new attire.
Miami High?!?!? Ain't no 'Stingaree' (yes, that's the mascot of Miami High)... I still bleed Green and Gray (graduated from North Miami High)! GO PIONEERS!  ;D
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: CCAlex on June 13, 2011, 06:28:52 PM
As Eclipse said many times that CAP will never wear ABU's, I think that we'll wear them eventually, but only after the air force phases out to wear some other uniform. I think that there would probably always be a difference in the uniforms because CAP is not the air force, hence, they'll want to make the distinction between them. A problem I see for the cadets is that, there would probably be no more inspection because you don't iron ABU's, and the "vomit green" boots will never be shined. I think it may be a while before we switch.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: kmbarnes1 on June 13, 2011, 07:27:02 PM
We'd still need inspections: Grooming standards, eyes front and not wandering, standing up straight, shoes on the right feet (yes, I've seen a cadet wear their boots backwards), patches in the right locations, etc.

Plus you need inspections for Blues
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on June 13, 2011, 08:01:34 PM
Quote from: kmbarnes1 on June 13, 2011, 07:27:02 PM
We'd still need inspections: Grooming standards, eyes front and not wandering, standing up straight, shoes on the right feet (yes, I've seen a cadet wear their boots backwards), patches in the right locations, etc.

Plus you need inspections for Blues

Don't forget the most common mistake: improperly placed name/branch tapes. Pin on (and Sew on) grade, etc. etc.

I've NEVER done an inspection, either in ranks or performing the inspection, where I heard/gave anyone a comment on their actual clothing, UNLESS it was excessively dirty/un-tucked/wrinkled/etc.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: JC004 on June 13, 2011, 10:48:31 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on June 13, 2011, 08:01:34 PM
Don't forget the most common mistake: improperly placed name/branch tapes.[citation needed] ...
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Hawk200 on June 13, 2011, 11:01:12 PM
Quote from: JC004 on June 13, 2011, 10:48:31 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on June 13, 2011, 08:01:34 PM
Don't forget the most common mistake: improperly placed name/branch tapes.[citation needed] ...
I've seen it. In Civil Air Patrol, in the Air Force, and in the Army (although, in fairness, with ACU's this is an easy mistake to make on occasion.)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on June 13, 2011, 11:14:02 PM
Quote from: JC004 on June 13, 2011, 10:48:31 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on June 13, 2011, 08:01:34 PM
Don't forget the most common mistake: improperly placed name/branch tapes.[citation needed] ...

It's my experience, if we want to get anal about it. :P

Typically, if cadets screw it up, they don't correct it right away. The same cadet can get cited on it for months, until they either get a talk from a SM, or leave the program. Attention to detail, it's all about the attention to detail.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Eclipse on June 13, 2011, 11:17:42 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on June 13, 2011, 11:14:02 PM
Quote from: JC004 on June 13, 2011, 10:48:31 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on June 13, 2011, 08:01:34 PM
Don't forget the most common mistake: improperly placed name/branch tapes.[citation needed] ...

It's my experience, if we want to get anal about it. :P

Typically, if cadets screw it up, they don't correct it right away. The same cadet can get cited on it for months, until they either get a talk from a SM, or leave the program. Attention to detail, it's all about the attention to detail.

There are also those units who "know better", like setting cadet grade at an angle that "looks cooler".  It is corrected outside the unit, only to be put back wrong the next time you see them.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: JC004 on June 13, 2011, 11:22:33 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on June 13, 2011, 11:01:12 PM
Quote from: JC004 on June 13, 2011, 10:48:31 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on June 13, 2011, 08:01:34 PM
Don't forget the most common mistake: improperly placed name/branch tapes.[citation needed] ...
I've seen it. In Civil Air Patrol, in the Air Force, and in the Army (although, in fairness, with ACU's this is an easy mistake to make on occasion.)

I'd think the most common would be the second sentence, but most importantly, we should add some fun from Wikipedia.  Election time is coming, so everyone should be making signs that say "[citation needed]" to take with them to rallies and other events.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: CadetMurphy on June 14, 2011, 04:02:13 AM
 this is going to be around 2014?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: JC004 on June 14, 2011, 04:14:00 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 13, 2011, 11:17:42 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on June 13, 2011, 11:14:02 PM
Quote from: JC004 on June 13, 2011, 10:48:31 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on June 13, 2011, 08:01:34 PM
Don't forget the most common mistake: improperly placed name/branch tapes.[citation needed] ...

It's my experience, if we want to get anal about it. :P

Typically, if cadets screw it up, they don't correct it right away. The same cadet can get cited on it for months, until they either get a talk from a SM, or leave the program. Attention to detail, it's all about the attention to detail.

There are also those units who "know better", like setting cadet grade at an angle that "looks cooler".  It is corrected outside the unit, only to be put back wrong the next time you see them.

I've seen units tell their C/SNCOs to wear them at an angle for "safety" reasons...  Because hundreds of cadets have died this way...

Quote from: CadetMurphy on June 14, 2011, 04:02:13 AM
 this is going to be around 2014?

Who told you this?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SarDragon on June 14, 2011, 04:36:41 AM
Did you miss the question mark?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SoCalMarine on June 15, 2011, 10:11:12 AM
Quote from: CCAlex on June 13, 2011, 06:28:52 PM
As Eclipse said many times that CAP will never wear ABU's, I think that we'll wear them eventually, but only after the air force phases out to wear some other uniform. I think that there would probably always be a difference in the uniforms because CAP is not the air force, hence, they'll want to make the distinction between them. A problem I see for the cadets is that, there would probably be no more inspection because you don't iron ABU's, and the "vomit green" boots will never be shined. I think it may be a while before we switch.

I don't think this is true at all. The USAF switched to BDUs in the early 80's. CAP switched to the BDUs in the early 90's. So, for over 10 years CAP and the USAF wore the same uniform. Prior to BDUs both CAP and the USAF wore fatigues. In fact, the current practice of blue nametapes and full color patches and rank on the BDUs for CAP is a holdover from the fatigues. I would imagine that if the USAF stays with ABUs that CAP will make the switch roughly 5-10 years out from the USAF required wear date.

Anyway, the last I heard from Col Desmarais who works daily with National said that ABUs are not in the foreseeable future for CAP. He told us that at the end of NESA in 2010.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Angus on June 15, 2011, 08:05:38 PM
Quote from: CCAlex on June 13, 2011, 06:28:52 PM
As Eclipse said many times that CAP will never wear ABU's, I think that we'll wear them eventually, but only after the air force phases out to wear some other uniform. I think that there would probably always be a difference in the uniforms because CAP is not the air force, hence, they'll want to make the distinction between them. A problem I see for the cadets is that, there would probably be no more inspection because you don't iron ABU's, and the "vomit green" boots will never be shined. I think it may be a while before we switch.

A couple things here because like all good CAP members I like to get a little anal. 

At the start of your post you qoute the opinion of another board member and agee with that post.  However in your next sentance you go against the "no ABU's" and say you think we will get them eventually.  Please pick a camp and stay in it.

Next you say that we're not the Air Force.  As I'm sure you need no reminding CAP is the Air Force Auxiliary.  And thus we are part of the Air Force family.  The Air Force has stated in the past that they value the relationship between "Ma Blue" and ourselves.  That being said that is why we are authorized to wear the uniform of the Air Force.


Now to add my 2 cents to the whole debate (again).  I do think that at some point we will get the ABU.  If the phase in date is set for this year for the Air Force it will definitely be some time after that.  Next taking into account how we would want to display our current uniform patches to that uniform and the debate internally and then a presentation to the Air Force and they're response and any possible back and forth.  I'm going to say November of 2012 at the absolute earlest is when we'd start to see anything. 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on June 15, 2011, 08:11:31 PM
The one thing I don't get, is the debate over the patches. I doubt we'd shift from full color, but perhaps a shift in tape colors would be good. The green uniforms to BDUs, the blue carried over ok. But with the ABU, the colors just contrast too much. Then again, the mockup that Eclipse made back in 2007 didn't look all that bad (from a distance!)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Angus on June 15, 2011, 08:17:49 PM
If we do a change in tapes, the only thing I pray is that we get away from the Ultramarine Blue as so many have asked for.  I'm usually in my BBDU (even though I meet the weight & grooming standard)  and the dark blue with that splash of ultramarine looks horrible and not functional at all.  Most importantly while working with other agencies it doesn't carry a sense of professionalism to me.

I've got other issues I'll post later.  Just gotta figure out where they go cause it falls into this and es at the same time. 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SoCalMarine on June 15, 2011, 08:32:38 PM
Quote from: Flint on June 15, 2011, 08:17:49 PM
If we do a change in tapes, the only thing I pray is that we get away from the Ultramarine Blue as so many have asked for.  I'm usually in my BBDU (even though I meet the weight & grooming standard)  and the dark blue with that splash of ultramarine looks horrible and not functional at all.  Most importantly while working with other agencies it doesn't carry a sense of professionalism to me.

I'd agree. I would hope that if we switched to ABUs that we at least moved to the BDU tapes since they are subdued. They'd still stand out enough for the USAF to tell we're not AF personnel, but not look like a mickey mouse outfit.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Phillip on June 16, 2011, 06:25:32 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on June 15, 2011, 08:11:31 PMThe one thing I don't get, is the debate over the patches. I doubt we'd shift from full color, but perhaps a shift in tape colors would be good.

Quote from: Flint on June 15, 2011, 08:17:49 PMIf we do a change in tapes, the only thing I pray is that we get away from the Ultramarine Blue as so many have asked for.

Quote from: honolulugold on June 15, 2011, 08:32:38 PMI would hope that if we switched to ABUs that we at least moved to the BDU tapes since they are subdued.

When (yeah, I said "when") ABUs are authorized, I really don't see any changes being made to insignia color, though I'd agree Ultramarine needs to go.  I foresee the conversation between USAF and CAP going like this:

USAF: "Ok, y'all can wear the ABUs now."
CAP: "Yay!  But with what insignia?"
USAF: "Um...whatever we authorized you to use on the current BDUs."

USAF isn't going to have time to review various proposals for a CAP version of the ABUs and in light of the whole CSU thing, I don't think NHQ is going to press the issue.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: CCAlex on June 16, 2011, 08:21:12 PM
Flint,
I do know that CAP is part of the air force family, and I believe that we are only the Air force Aux. when we are on a chartered mission. I did pick a camp and stayed with it, because Eclipse said that we will never get ABU's, and I stated my opinion otherwise. I did not contradict myself saying that we will transfer later, and my opinion is that we will. I stayed with that, and I will still say that.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SoCalMarine on June 16, 2011, 08:30:49 PM
Quote from: Phillip on June 16, 2011, 06:25:32 PM
USAF isn't going to have time to review various proposals for a CAP version of the ABUs and in light of the whole CSU thing, I don't think NHQ is going to press the issue.

Why not though? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but why not? There's a whole group of people, both CAP and USAF, that do nothing but sit at NHQ to work on CAP issues including hot button issues like uniforms.

However, they can't even manage to put out a new manual with updated pictures that don't show blues with wing patches so I'd imagine that you're right and they would find a way to not have the time for it.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RiverAux on June 16, 2011, 09:00:12 PM
I wouldn't think it would take any time at all to "review" a new color for the name tapes that is distinctive from the Air Force yet actually looks professional (i.e., the same exact color as the CAP BBDU uniform).
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: CCAlex on June 16, 2011, 09:05:54 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on June 16, 2011, 09:00:12 PM
I wouldn't think it would take any time at all to "review" a new color for the name tapes that is distinctive from the Air Force yet actually looks professional (i.e., the same exact color as the CAP BBDU uniform).
ooh! ooh! I Got one! how about, orange and blue!....nah. black and white would be good. I think.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: ol'fido on June 16, 2011, 11:27:56 PM
Well, since we're "possible" insignia color(s) on "maybe we'll get it/ maybe we won't" uniform, I say give everyone some of those rainbow colored post-it-note pads and a sharpie. Is everybody happy???!! >:D
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SoCalMarine on June 17, 2011, 03:56:43 AM
Well, tonight I had the opportunity to speak to the wing's former commander. I floated two ideas to him to see his take.

First, I said IF we were ever to move to ABUs I think we should use the subdued tapes and patches that would normally go on BDUs. It would still easily distinguish us from the USAF, but would still look professional versus how bad the ultramarine tapes would look. He not only said he liked the idea a lot, but that he's heard the same thing discussed on the wing, region and national level amongst commanders.

Second, I said that we should do a few things to modernize the uniform. Specifically I stated we should take the badges for SM speciality tracks and move them above the ribbons. While doing that, we should reshape the badges to resemble the AF rating and occupational badges which would bring us in line with AF uniform regulations. We could do that, but to maintain the CAP distinction we'd just keep the badges full color. He actually loved the idea, and wanted me to write up a proposal for him to work on and see how far we can take it. He's an AF Colonel so that helps too having his name attached to the idea.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Phillip on June 17, 2011, 04:46:33 PM
Quote from: honolulugold on June 16, 2011, 08:30:49 PM
Quote from: Phillip on June 16, 2011, 06:25:32 PM
USAF isn't going to have time to review various proposals for a CAP version of the ABUs and in light of the whole CSU thing, I don't think NHQ is going to press the issue.

Why not though? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but why not? There's a whole group of people, both CAP and USAF, that do nothing but sit at NHQ to work on CAP issues including hot button issues like uniforms.

However, they can't even manage to put out a new manual with updated pictures that don't show blues with wing patches so I'd imagine that you're right and they would find a way to not have the time for it.
I really don't think that USAF wants to spend much time on a new uniform set for CAP.  Not that they don't care, of course, but it's such a low priority for them that they'll likely look for the quickest way to get it settled.  I would hope that they would want to see a couple of proposals and that NHQ has a couple of proposals ready for them.

I won't be surprised, however, to see the CAP-ABU feature ultramarine bling.  Disappointed, but not surprised.

Quote from: honolulugold on June 17, 2011, 03:56:43 AMI think we should use the subdued tapes and patches that would normally go on BDUs. It would still easily distinguish us from the USAF, but would still look professional versus how bad the ultramarine tapes would look. He not only said he liked the idea a lot, but that he's heard the same thing discussed on the wing, region and national level amongst commanders.
That wouldn't be too bad.    I'd rather see dark blue tapes and such though, to have the distinctive look plus a link to the the BBDUs.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Hawk200 on June 17, 2011, 09:07:43 PM
Quote from: honolulugold on June 17, 2011, 03:56:43 AMFirst, I said IF we were ever to move to ABUs I think we should use the subdued tapes and patches that would normally go on BDUs.
I know someone who did this with a brand new ABU shirt, and brand new subdued tapes. It does not look good. The greens are different shades, and it's kind of nauseating to look at.

He also had one that he'd put sage green tapes on, it didn't look too bad. He'd gone with Blag Blue lettering, so it was in subdued colors. However, based on what we've seen in the past, it looks like something that Air Force would likely have a problem with.

Personally, I'd think that Navy blue, or even the Fire Navy colors look decent. The Fire Navy tapes I've seen match well colorwise with the white on blue stripes used on the blue uniforms. Plus it has the advantage of matching the BBDU. It's also readily available (which Vanguard may have a problem with, but I don't really care).

Quote from: honolulugold on June 17, 2011, 03:56:43 AM
Second, I said that we should do a few things to modernize the uniform. Specifically I stated we should take the badges for SM speciality tracks and move them above the ribbons. While doing that, we should reshape the badges to resemble the AF rating and occupational badges which would bring us in line with AF uniform regulations. We could do that, but to maintain the CAP distinction we'd just keep the badges full color.
Our badges are distinctive, both in shape, location of placement, and in color. Since it's something we're already allowed to do, we may as well keep it.

Second, Vanguard is gonna want some money for the redesign, and is going to either sell out existing stock first, or is going to demand that National buy out all their existing stock. That's a problem.

Unfortunately, for purposes of uniformity, we have problems. if you do phaseout through attrition, then you end up with an oddball mix of old and new for a long time. Many CAP members don't wear out uniforms that quickly, so we could see this kind of hodgepodge for a long time.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: billford1 on June 17, 2011, 11:28:15 PM
We'll have 3 field uniforms. ABU, BDU --  BBDU.  Or President Obama could order a CAP Stimulus with ABUs for everyone. That would make me distracted. I'd have difficulty locating bearded senior members. To alleviate confusion to them the AF could order us to wear reflective CAP ball caps.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SoCalMarine on June 17, 2011, 11:38:33 PM
Quote from: Phillip on June 17, 2011, 04:46:33 PM
Quote from: honolulugold on June 17, 2011, 03:56:43 AMI think we should use the subdued tapes and patches that would normally go on BDUs. It would still easily distinguish us from the USAF, but would still look professional versus how bad the ultramarine tapes would look. He not only said he liked the idea a lot, but that he's heard the same thing discussed on the wing, region and national level amongst commanders.
That wouldn't be too bad.    I'd rather see dark blue tapes and such though, to have the distinctive look plus a link to the the BBDUs.

Well, I don't see why they couldn't maintain the ultramarine specifically for the BBDUs, or change to nametapes matching the color of the BBDUs. Doesn't take much effort to cut and paste or highlight and change text in .pdfs. I do it all the time as I'm a publication/public affairs officer for my Guard unit.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SoCalMarine on June 17, 2011, 11:47:17 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on June 17, 2011, 09:07:43 PM
Our badges are distinctive, both in shape, location of placement, and in color. Since it's something we're already allowed to do, we may as well keep it.

I don't disagree, but the point was the modernize the uniform. Changes in uniform style and placement and design happy regularly with the military (except the Marines and Coast Guard). And anyone that's been around CAP long enough knows that CAP outpaces any of the branches with its uniform changes. I know a lot of people have been discussing this particular issue on both sides (CAP and USAF). Partly due to the desire to bring CAP more in line with USAF regulations, but also because there's going to be new occupational badges coming out for the multitude of speciality tracks that don't already have one. For those of you who are Personnel Officers like me, you can see there are a lot more speciality tracks/ duty positions than what's either listed in manuals or by looking at Vanguard's insignia lists. I've been a Homeland Security officer for two years now and there's nothing for the position.

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 17, 2011, 09:07:43 PM
Second, Vanguard is gonna want some money for the redesign, and is going to either sell out existing stock first, or is going to demand that National buy out all their existing stock. That's a problem.

That I agree with. CAP needs to look at other vendors like the Exchange (they have their own comparable line of generic store brand insignia) or Ira Green perhaps.

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 17, 2011, 09:07:43 PM
Unfortunately, for purposes of uniformity, we have problems. if you do phaseout through attrition, then you end up with an oddball mix of old and new for a long time. Many CAP members don't wear out uniforms that quickly, so we could see this kind of hodgepodge for a long time.

I agree with you, but you seem to forget that we already have that. I've seen four different ES patches, different squadron patches for the same unit, different wing patches for the same wing and so on. You've just grown accustomed to seeing the hodgepodge currently out there. I don't think modernization shouldn't occur because people won't like the phase-in period.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RiverAux on June 18, 2011, 12:33:08 AM
Quote from: honolulugold on June 17, 2011, 11:47:17 PM
Changes in uniform style and placement and design happy regularly with the military (except the Marines and Coast Guard).
The Coast Guard has made two major changes in it's fatigue uniform in the last 7 years (working blue to tucked ODU to untucked ODU).
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SoCalMarine on June 18, 2011, 12:45:23 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on June 18, 2011, 12:33:08 AM
Quote from: honolulugold on June 17, 2011, 11:47:17 PM
Changes in uniform style and placement and design happy regularly with the military (except the Marines and Coast Guard).
The Coast Guard has made two major changes in it's fatigue uniform in the last 7 years (working blue to tucked ODU to untucked ODU).

And the Marines have had two major changes from desert and woodland cammies to desert and woodland MARPAT (although you could look at that as one change). My point was meant to imply the word RELATIVE. Compared to the other branches which are constantly (every year or two) changing, or tweaking, their uniforms the Marines and Coast Guard have had very few changes.

Although I will admit that in the latest ALCOAST that just came out, the CG is now going to a new ballcap. Have you seen the ALCOAST?

**In fact, all 7 uniformed services have made a dramatic change in their utility uniform (BDUs, cammies, DSU and so on) since 2000. I was discounted that fact in my statement since everyone's done it.

*** I recently saw an Army SgtMaj wearing woodland BDU colored ACUs. VERY interesting.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: JC004 on June 18, 2011, 01:08:39 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on June 16, 2011, 09:00:12 PM
I wouldn't think it would take any time at all to "review" a new color for the name tapes that is distinctive from the Air Force yet actually looks professional (i.e., the same exact color as the CAP BBDU uniform).

Radioman wants red and white or something to increase silliness.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Sapper168 on June 18, 2011, 01:46:53 AM
Quote from: honolulugold on June 18, 2011, 12:45:23 AM
*** I recently saw an Army SgtMaj wearing woodland BDU colored ACUs. VERY interesting.


You more than likely saw the Multicam patterned ACU that are issued to army  troops serving in Afghanistan. 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SoCalMarine on June 18, 2011, 02:42:19 AM
Quote from: Ground_Pounder on June 18, 2011, 01:46:53 AM
Quote from: honolulugold on June 18, 2011, 12:45:23 AM
*** I recently saw an Army SgtMaj wearing woodland BDU colored ACUs. VERY interesting.


You more than likely saw the Multicam patterned ACU that are issued to army  troops serving in Afghanistan.

Uh, no. I'm IN the Georgia Guard. I know the difference between MulitCam, ACU and BDUs woodland and desert. Also, the current Army policy is that MultiCam is not to be worn stateside. It was the same woodland color you found on BDUs prior to the ACU just like I saw back when I joined the Marine Corps in 1994, however it was designed like the ACU with angled pockets and velcro.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
Quote from: honolulugold on June 17, 2011, 11:47:17 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on June 17, 2011, 09:07:43 PM
Our badges are distinctive, both in shape, location of placement, and in color. Since it's something we're already allowed to do, we may as well keep it.

I don't disagree, but the point was the modernize the uniform. Changes in uniform style and placement and design happy regularly with the military (except the Marines and Coast Guard).
To be blunt, change for the sake of change is a waste of time and money. What need is there to alter a complete set of badges and their placement? I used to think it would be nice to "look like the Air Force", but I've realized that there needs to be some minor but obvious distinctions. Alterations are not needed. There is no justifiable reason to change something just to do it. That indicates a serious lack of priority.

Second, it's not our uniform to change. We're part of the Air Force (more or less), not our own unique entity. The smart thing to do is wear the it as the Air Force sees fit, and suggest concepts for new uniforms that we are not currently, but may eventually be authorized (ABU).

Quote from: honolulugold on June 17, 2011, 11:47:17 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on June 17, 2011, 09:07:43 PM
Second, Vanguard is gonna want some money for the redesign, and is going to either sell out existing stock first, or is going to demand that National buy out all their existing stock. That's a problem.

That I agree with. CAP needs to look at other vendors like the Exchange (they have their own comparable line of generic store brand insignia) or Ira Green perhaps.

Right now, CAP has an exclusive contract with Vanguard. Allowing others to produce items for us will cost us. Guess who ends up paying for it.

Now, if you want to foot that bill of paying off or buying out everything related to Vanguard, I'll wear it as long as it would be authorized for me, and I don't think it looks stupid. Until then, it's unwise to suggest changes for the sake of changes. Our specialty badges are unique. The Air Force has few pocket-worn badges, so our insignia provide some minor but critical differences. So far, I'm simply seeing "Oh, we should modernize, everybody else is." That's the wrong reason to do so.

Quote from: honolulugold on June 17, 2011, 11:47:17 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on June 17, 2011, 09:07:43 PMUnfortunately, for purposes of uniformity, we have problems. if you do phaseout through attrition, then you end up with an oddball mix of old and new for a long time. Many CAP members don't wear out uniforms that quickly, so we could see this kind of hodgepodge for a long time.

I agree with you, but you seem to forget that we already have that. I've seen four different ES patches, different squadron patches for the same unit, different wing patches for the same wing and so on. You've just grown accustomed to seeing the hodgepodge currently out there. I don't think modernization shouldn't occur because people won't like the phase-in period.
And you seem to think that since we have this variation, it's acceptable to make it worse. That is flawed logic.

Second, there's only been two ES patches. A T-34, and a dog. The dog is an updating of the original ES patch. There haven't been any others.

Finally, it's not modernization, it's your personal desire. A desire that shows no practicality.

I've been where you are now, I wanted to see us "more like the Air Force." However, many of the changes that were made to achieve that goal have created problems of "so much like the Air Force that CAP behaviours could reflect negatively on the Air Force." We have uniquely colored epaulets, unique badges and placements, and unique color schemes. Some are a little too out there, and could stand to be tweaked a bit. But attempting to alter authorizations that we already have is a bad idea. The Air Force may simply say, "Well, fine, you don't want to wear the uniform we allowed you, the way we allowed you, so you can quit wearing ours altogether." That happens, I will leave (and likely many others) for the simple fact that I'm not going to go buy all new uniforms because someone couldn't just do the right thing, and leave the things alone that didn't need to be bothered with in the first place. What we have now works, it's not an impediment, and it will not resolve anything to change for the sake of change.

The issues of different patches for the same unit is not a justification to make another one. That's a management issue. A lot of the problem there is "we can't make people change or they'll leave." So we end up with people looking tacky, unkempt, or completely unprofessional by being PC. Address the problem (people not wearing the things they should), instead of trying to change to something new that you want. Lead, don't change because it's easier.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:50:02 AM
Quote from: honolulugold on June 18, 2011, 12:45:23 AM*** I recently saw an Army SgtMaj wearing woodland BDU colored ACUs. VERY interesting.
That SgtMaj was not wearing an Army authorized uniform. He was either "special", or decided to do his own thing. If he was "special", then he was probably not supposed to be wearing it where most would see him. There are some folks with specialized units that tend to create a stir when they show up in unusual gear or uniforms.

If he was doing his own thing, I'd wonder why he'd want to spend the money. Of course, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he was some kind of poser.

Quote from: honolulugold on June 18, 2011, 02:42:19 AMIt was the same woodland color you found on BDUs prior to the ACU just like I saw back when I joined the Marine Corps in 1994, however it was designed like the ACU with angled pockets and velcro.
I know for a fact that there is a State Defense Force or three that wears a Woodland camo pattern ACU-style uniform. Not sure which ones at the moment, I'll have to dig into all the SDF uniform manuals that I have to find which one (and I've got a few). I know the SDF for my state is going to the ACU, but I'm not certain as to the configuration.

I imagine that the one you saw probably had the old solid green nametapes and rank. However, there is an SDF or two that have had custom made tapes and insignia that match the woodland pattern.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SoCalMarine on June 18, 2011, 09:15:41 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:50:02 AM
That SgtMaj was not wearing an Army authorized uniform. He was either "special", or decided to do his own thing. If he was "special", then he was probably not supposed to be wearing it where most would see him. There are some folks with specialized units that tend to create a stir when they show up in unusual gear or uniforms.

If he was doing his own thing, I'd wonder why he'd want to spend the money. Of course, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he was some kind of poser.

How do you know he wasn't wearing an Army authorized uniform? Where do you come up with all of these wild theories? I didn't go all into this when I first posted the comment about his uniform because I didn't expect people to read so far into it. He's not a poser. This SgtMaj was wearing a test uniform. He was one of many Soldiers given the uniform for wear to test it out and respond back to R&D with his comments on wearability. He was traveling with a couple of other officers and enlisted wearing different versions of the ACUs with buttons and zippers rather than velcro. I even later saw a picture of him in the Army Times.

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:50:02 AM
I know for a fact that there is a State Defense Force or three that wears a Woodland camo pattern ACU-style uniform.

I've not seen that, but that's not to say you're wrong. I know that the only states not wearing ACUs are OR, NC, SC, VA, AL and LA. I might have missed one or two though. Pretty much everyone has switched to ACUs; although, most want to switch to MultiCam as they feel its a better uniform (I agree), and they know the Army is switching to it anyway. The only problem with the end of the sentence is that they Army is now testing a version of the MARPAT (I saw version as the MARPAT is copyrighted by the Corps) in both woodland and desert colors. That should be interesting. If they change again you could say that the Army changes uniforms like women changes clothes! Hahaha

What state are you in?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SoCalMarine on June 18, 2011, 09:43:06 AM
OK, I'm going to start off by saying that I had to take some time before responding. Your reply came across as being very belittling of me, my ideas and suggestions.  You can disagree with someone without responding the way you did; however, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here to say that you didn't intend to be that way and it was more how it came across to me. So, don't think that I hate you, or have hard feelings against you if you read something I wrote below and it doesn't come off right.

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
To be blunt, change for the sake of change is a waste of time and money. What need is there to alter a complete set of badges and their placement? I used to think it would be nice to "look like the Air Force", but I've realized that there needs to be some minor but obvious distinctions. Alterations are not needed. There is no justifiable reason to change something just to do it. That indicates a serious lack of priority.

I gave reasons for the suggestions of change. If I had said we should change because "I'm tired of this", or because "we've been wearing this uniform so awhile" then I would agree that it would be for change's sake. The problem is that i stated two specific reasons. First, to modernize the uniform. CAP, along with the other auxiliaries and military branches modernize their uniforms. CAP has a track record of this, and generally its at the suggestion of the USAF. Second, to be more in line with USAF uniform regulations while maintaining distinctiveness. You may dismiss the idea, but I have precedence on my side.

Case in point... all the Wings are currently working to revise and redesign the wing patches. Why? Because they USAF stated that they wanted the patches to conform to USAF regulations for design and size. As you can see by looking at Vanguard, and doing a little research on the subject, states are starting to make the transition with Georgia being the latest. So, the USAF itself thinks that modernization and conforming to USAF standards is a valid reason for change. The same reason I stated that you seem to dismiss.

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
Second, it's not our uniform to change. We're part of the Air Force (more or less), not our own unique entity. The smart thing to do is wear the it as the Air Force sees fit, and suggest concepts for new uniforms that we are not currently, but may eventually be authorized (ABU).

Correct, but who suggested that WE change it? I stated that they are suggestions to be made up the chain to NHQ for them to bring up with the USAF if they feel its a good idea. Do honestly believe that every change, or current regulation, concerning the CAP uniform was 100% USAF ideas? Not one item is because of a suggestion from someone in CAP on any level? The USAF is full of professionals, including those who preside over CAP. If a suggestion is presented in a complete, concise way with good visuals the USAF will listen. They may still deny the idea, but they respect people who are visionaries and present ideas.

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
Right now, CAP has an exclusive contract with Vanguard. Allowing others to produce items for us will cost us. Guess who ends up paying for it.

Yes, hence my usage of the word look. Look means research. It doesn't mean just drop a contract, violate the terms of a contract or anything else. If you think no one is already looking ahead at how the contract will be renegotiated once the VG contract is up than you are very naive. There's no harm in looking at the capabilities of another vendor, their pricing and quality.

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
Now, if you want to foot that bill of paying off or buying out everything related to Vanguard, I'll wear it as long as it would be authorized for me, and I don't think it looks stupid.

Odd, you'll only wear something as long as you don't think it looks stupid. Seems to contradict a statement you made below about people not wearing things they're supposed to and so on. So, its alright for you to not wear something because you think it might look stupid, but its wrong for someone else to suggest a change for the same reason?

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
Until then, it's unwise to suggest changes for the sake of changes.

To quote Reagan, "there you go again."

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
Our specialty badges are unique.

And no one has suggested making them not unique. Come to think of it, I went out of my way multiple times to state that I believe we can make these changes while still maintaining the distinctiveness of our insignia.

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
The Air Force has few pocket-worn badges, so our insignia provide some minor but critical differences.

And those badges are very specific in nature. They are generally for a high level position as staff for someone, a command or because it doesn't fit above the ribbons like the missile badge. The USAF does not use the pockets for rating and occupational badges except in extreme circumstances.

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
So far, I'm simply seeing "Oh, we should modernize, everybody else is." That's the wrong reason to do so.

Of course that's all you see, and that explains your responses so far; however, you're not seeing that from anything I said. Show me where I said we should modernize because everyone else is. I never even alluded to that.


Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
Quote from: honolulugold on June 17, 2011, 11:47:17 PM
I've seen four different ES patches
And you seem to think that since we have this variation, it's acceptable to make it worse. That is flawed logic.

Second, there's only been two ES patches. A T-34, and a dog. The dog is an updating of the original ES patch. There haven't been any others.

First, I'm pretty sure the flawed logic here isn't mine. How do you get I think its "acceptable to make it worse" from what I said? Where are you even getting that what I stated would make it worse? If you were comprehending what I wrote you would have walked away with the idea that I was making the point that all the variations in insignia/patches is an issue, and that I believe we should narrow them down to one each.

As for the number of ES patches... let me explain something to you for future reference... if someone makes a statement that you don't understand such as my "I've seen four different ES patches" a professional response would have been to say: "I only know of two ES patches. Of which other two are you referring?"

Why? First, it allows the first person to correct their statement from four to two if they had been wrong without putting them down, and two, it allows them to give information on the other two patches that you were unaware without making a definitive statement which you later have to retract.

So, what are these four ES patches that I've seen? On a few people in GA, one person at NESA last year and two or three people in CAWG, I've seen an OLD patch. It is round like the dog patch, it has a white background, with blue letters around the outside "Civil Air Patrol" on top and "Emergency Services" on the bottom with a red Cessna in the center situated so that it looks as if you're standing in front of it looking straight down the spine from nose to tail. That's one.

Second patch is the old T-34 that is primarily red and blue in color.

Third patch is the dog patch which looks like something you'd get at Disney.

The fourth patch is now available at Vanguard. Its the same design as the old T-34 but with a radically different color scheme.

That makes four just like I said.

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
Finally, it's not modernization, it's your personal desire. A desire that shows no practicality.

There's nothing final about it. My ideas follow suit with the same reasoning the USAF has given for wanting the redesign of wing patches. Here's a question though... how is it that you know what I'm thinking, or what's in my heart? Even though I've stated two reasons for the suggestions, you are saying that's not my true reasoning. That I am in fact doing it for my own personal gain.

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
I've been where you are now, I wanted to see us "more like the Air Force." However, many of the changes that were made to achieve that goal have created problems of "so much like the Air Force that CAP behaviours could reflect negatively on the Air Force."

Where did i say I want us to look "more like the Air Force?" All I said is to follow more in line with the USAF regulations in which CAP purports to derive their uniform regulations.

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
...have uniquely colored epaulets, unique badges and placements, and unique color schemes. Some are a little too out there, and could stand to be tweaked a bit.

Hm, that seems to contradict with your statement up top. You said that, and I quote, "Alterations are not needed. There is no justifiable reason to change something just to do it." Really? So, you say that they could be tweaked, but is that not an alteration? What reason do you have to justify your violating your own statement that alterations are needed?


Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
But attempting to alter authorizations that we already have is a bad idea.

And yet you just stated that we need some "tweaking" of our colors. Do you not know, or realize, that it is the USAF that states what we can wear? The colors we wear are because of our "authorizations" by the USAF. So, you've just contradicted your contradiction.

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
The Air Force may simply say, "Well, fine, you don't want to wear the uniform we allowed you, the way we allowed you, so you can quit wearing ours altogether."

It's a possibility, but highly improbable. Just like the idea that humans can fly. Anyway, do you know how many uniform changes are suggested up the chain every year? Do you know how many come from the different levels of membership from the lowest cadet all the way up to people at NHQ making suggestions? You act as if no one EVER makes a suggestion, and if I were to do it the USAF would flip out on us and take everything away.

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
That happens, I will leave (and likely many others) for the simple fact that I'm not going to go buy all new uniforms because someone couldn't just do the right thing, and leave the things alone that didn't need to be bothered with in the first place.

You know, its never a good debate tactic to say if I don't get my way I'm leaving. Who are you to say its "the right thing" to not suggest anything, to not have any vision? You know why Gen Courter got the job? Besides he amazing qualifications, she got the job because she had a vision. She had a vision how to change CAP and to make it better. You know why the USAF respects her visions and has accepted a lot of her changes? Because she approached them with respect. You act as if everyone in the USAF is an unprofessional wank who will get pissed at the first signs of "revolt" by someone suggestion a uniform change. Where do you think the uniform board gets the ideas that they consider every year for uniforms? They just fell out of the sky?

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
The issues of different patches for the same unit is not a justification to make another one.

OK. I agree, but I'm a little confused as to who mentioned that we should make another one. I sure didn't say it. Besides, my mentioning the patches really had nothing to do with the patches themselves so much as to use the varied number of patches for the same thing as an example of why we need to fix things.

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
That's a management issue. A lot of the problem there is "we can't make people change or they'll leave."

And yet you just stated that if you were forced to change you would leave, yet you're saying right here that is a bad reason for not doing something.

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 05:29:38 AM
Address the problem (people not wearing the things they should)

I agree, especially when someone says that they won't wear something if they think it looks stupid.

Look man, I can respect your views if you differ with me. I'm adult enough that I can understand that people are different with different views and likes and interests. The problem I have is how you go about disagreeing with someone. You just come across as making statements where you're the right one and everyone else must be wrong. Just not cool man. I don't mind a good debate. I don't know everything, and you may see something from an angle I didn't. I'd just rather talk with you where you're not commenting the way you did.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Hawk200 on June 18, 2011, 01:00:27 PM
Taken a few things out of context, and you don't seem to think that the facts relate that many other people already know. So, I'm done. Have a nice day.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AngelWings on June 18, 2011, 05:24:59 PM
 More "Drama: Life in the CAP Talk"

parody of "Trama: Life in the ER"
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Eclipse on June 18, 2011, 05:41:24 PM
Quote from: honolulugold on June 18, 2011, 09:43:06 AM
Case in point... all the Wings are currently working to revise and redesign the wing patches. Why? Because they USAF stated that they wanted the patches to conform to USAF regulations for design and size. As you can see by looking at Vanguard, and doing a little research on the subject, states are starting to make the transition with Georgia being the latest. So, the USAF itself thinks that modernization and conforming to USAF standards is a valid reason for change. The same reason I stated that you seem to dismiss.

Yeah, you're going to have to go ahead and cite on that.

Not all wings are doing anything with their wing patches.

I know from personal, direct contact with the people involved that the rework of my wing's patch is based purely on the personal whim of
those involved and has nothing to do with the USAF or even CAP NHQ.  I can also tell you that the current emphasis on the Heraldry Guidelines, at least in my wing, is bottom-up, not top down, and, for better or worse, stems from me personally asking the question in 2003-2004 when we designed an insignia for the Group.  Until then, the topic had literally never come up.

The USAF could literally not care less about CAP Wing patches, nor even CAP-USAF.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: jimmydeanno on June 18, 2011, 06:51:49 PM
I can tell you definitively that my wing is NOT looking at changing its patch.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: HGjunkie on June 18, 2011, 06:54:10 PM
Pretty sure FLWG isn't planning on changing the patch... again.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SoCalMarine on June 18, 2011, 10:22:54 PM
FLWG's patch already meets the guidelines in shape and size.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: HGjunkie on June 18, 2011, 10:40:06 PM
Quote from: honolulugold on June 18, 2011, 10:22:54 PM
FLWG's patch already meets the guidelines in shape and size.

And good thing it's optional. I don't like the look of it that much.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SoCalMarine on June 18, 2011, 11:08:26 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on June 18, 2011, 10:40:06 PM
Quote from: honolulugold on June 18, 2011, 10:22:54 PM
FLWG's patch already meets the guidelines in shape and size.

And good thing it's optional. I don't like the look of it that much.

Well, I like the look but I think they could have done a better job of increasing the stitching versus just around the border. If they have done stitching all through the yellow lines to differentiate between the main area of the shield and the banner below it I think it would look better.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SoCalMarine on June 18, 2011, 11:13:49 PM
Anyway to get back on topic... I just don't see the need to switch to ABUs. I will if ordered, but if its an optional uniform it will greatly depend on what colors the tapes and patches end up being. Also, I would prefer that CAP, if we ever do switch to ABUs, follow suit with the AF and not wearing any patches. We should just wear nametapes, rating and occupational badges and maybe the flag (although I don't see the point to that).

Here's the thing, for me anyway, the ABUs are very hot and uncomfortable. All these cadets so concerned over ABUs don't have a clue about that part of it. No matter how many times you wash them they are just as stiff as the day you bought them, and very scratchy while you're at it. Also, they are super hot! The AF introduced a hot weather blouse (they should have added hot weather trousers too), but you have to get special permission to wear it.

I don't know. Just seems more effort than its worth. The AF definitely made a mistake on material for the ABUs. I think ACUs are retarded, but at least they're very soft.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: abdsp51 on June 20, 2011, 04:36:13 PM
SoCal I beg to differ on ABUs staying stiff after many washings.  I have eight sets that have been washed many many times and they are no were near stiff.  And scratchy hardly, maybe when you first get hem but after washing them its like a broken in set of BDUs that you dont need to take an iron too or starch.  Are they hot yes they are no disagreements there, but they are actually quite comfortable, and are like anything they need to be broken in.   
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: lycan1138 on June 30, 2011, 02:38:22 PM
what about the digital multi cam
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Hawk200 on June 30, 2011, 02:44:40 PM
Quote from: lycan1138 on June 30, 2011, 02:38:22 PM
what about the digital multi cam
Multicam is not a digital pattern. There are some knockoffs, but the trademarked (patented, copyrighted, etc.) print isn't digital.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: lycan1138 on June 30, 2011, 03:00:33 PM
ik i just dont know the real name for it
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: DC on July 01, 2011, 04:01:52 AM
Quote from: lycan1138 on June 30, 2011, 03:00:33 PM
ik i just dont know the real name for it
The real name for what?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AirDX on July 01, 2011, 04:37:06 AM
We're not the only ones experiencing uniform buffoonery, the Army has banned toe shoes, concerned about "image":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/checkpoint-washington/post/army-bans-use-of-toe-shoes-citing-image-concerns/2011/06/30/AGjkvyrH_blog.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/checkpoint-washington/post/army-bans-use-of-toe-shoes-citing-image-concerns/2011/06/30/AGjkvyrH_blog.html)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AngelWings on July 01, 2011, 04:47:15 AM
Quote from: AirDX on July 01, 2011, 04:37:06 AM
We're not the only ones experiencing uniform buffoonery, the Army has banned toe shoes, concerned about "image":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/checkpoint-washington/post/army-bans-use-of-toe-shoes-citing-image-concerns/2011/06/30/AGjkvyrH_blog.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/checkpoint-washington/post/army-bans-use-of-toe-shoes-citing-image-concerns/2011/06/30/AGjkvyrH_blog.html)
No where has bad has ours.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: lycan1138 on July 05, 2011, 01:18:36 AM
what about introducing DCUs in areas where it gets very warm in the summer sometimes here in central MO it can get 90 and 100 degrees easily in the summer
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: arajca on July 05, 2011, 01:28:56 AM
The DCU was not a temperature based uniform. It was based on the type or area the personnel were operating in. I think you'd agree that the woodland camo pattern does not provide any camoflauge in the desert.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: PHall on July 05, 2011, 02:03:29 AM
Quote from: arajca on July 05, 2011, 01:28:56 AM
The DCU was not a temperature based uniform. It was based on the type or area the personnel were operating in. I think you'd agree that the woodland camo pattern does not provide any camoflauge in the desert.

To help clarify, the DCU is just a Woodland BDU with different colors. No warmer and no cooler.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: LGM30GMCC on July 05, 2011, 02:10:58 AM
Well, arguably since it was brighter colors and reflected more sunlight it was marginally cooler  8)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Zen Master Charlie on July 05, 2011, 02:11:48 AM
Well, I'm too lazy to look through all of the comments, so I'm going to post what I heard DIRECTLY from Maj General Amy Courter!

A cadet addressed this question to her during an open forum at the Colorado Wing Conferance this year. Her response was that you can expect to see some "Progress" in two years. This is an action item that she brings to the USAF EVERY two months (just the request to look into it) and they (USAF) has not given any definative responses yet as to whether or not we ever will switch.

There you have it, from the top.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: PHall on July 05, 2011, 03:17:58 AM
Quote from: C/Caldwell on July 05, 2011, 02:11:48 AM
Well, I'm too lazy to look through all of the comments, so I'm going to post what I heard DIRECTLY from Maj General Amy Courter!

A cadet addressed this question to her during an open forum at the Colorado Wing Conferance this year. Her response was that you can expect to see some "Progress" in two years. This is an action item that she brings to the USAF EVERY two months (just the request to look into it) and they (USAF) has not given any definative responses yet as to whether or not we ever will switch.

There you have it, from the top.

The Air Force told us over three years ago that CAP would eventually go to the ABU.
They said it would be after the AF has completed their transition (Sept 30, 2011) and when the supply issues were cleared up (they are).
Now we just have to decide what insignia to wear to comply with AFI 10-2701 and get the final approval from HQAF.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RiverAux on July 05, 2011, 03:30:14 AM
Now the AF is starting to put in the light-weight version of the ABU.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Zen Master Charlie on July 05, 2011, 06:54:07 AM
Quote from: PHall on July 05, 2011, 03:17:58 AM
Quote from: C/Caldwell on July 05, 2011, 02:11:48 AM
Well, I'm too lazy to look through all of the comments, so I'm going to post what I heard DIRECTLY from Maj General Amy Courter!

A cadet addressed this question to her during an open forum at the Colorado Wing Conferance this year. Her response was that you can expect to see some "Progress" in two years. This is an action item that she brings to the USAF EVERY two months (just the request to look into it) and they (USAF) has not given any definative responses yet as to whether or not we ever will switch.

There you have it, from the top.

The Air Force told us over three years ago that CAP would eventually go to the ABU.
They said it would be after the AF has completed their transition (Sept 30, 2011) and when the supply issues were cleared up (they are).
Now we just have to decide what insignia to wear to comply with AFI 10-2701 and get the final approval from HQAF.


I'm just telling you what the National commander said. She said the Air Force hasen't even looked into it yet. She said every two months she calls someone from the Air Force, and requests them to 'Look into it' which they have yet to do. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying, thats what the General at the top of the debate said.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: BrianH76 on July 13, 2011, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: Ned on May 25, 2011, 08:47:53 PM
But no huge paradigm shifts are currently on the table.

Thank goodness.  Ned, put me down as one vote for leaving things the way they are.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: titanII on July 13, 2011, 01:26:00 PM
Quote from: BrianH76 on July 13, 2011, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: Ned on May 25, 2011, 08:47:53 PM
But no huge paradigm shifts are currently on the table.

Thank goodness.  Ned, put me down as one vote for leaving things the way they are.
You can put me on the same list.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Sapper168 on July 14, 2011, 08:29:21 AM
Since the Air Force wont be going back to the woodland bdu, they should authorize it for everyone in CAP and leave it at that, no abu's or multi-camo-digi-stripe-flavor-of-the-month or whatever the next uniform will be.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: lordmonar on July 14, 2011, 06:56:51 PM
If they USAF has given up on the woodland BDU's....we don't need their permission to us it.  ;D

Having said that.....if we are not going to go to the ABU.....we need to go to something else.  BBDU, Gray BDU, Orange BDU....something.  Woodland as an ES uniform is stupid.

Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: afgeo4 on July 14, 2011, 07:08:10 PM
Multicam?  I kid! I kid!


Why not just switch over to the blue BDU? It's already all worked out and we could simply switch the name tapes to white on navy blue and be done with it. The uniform's already in production, easy to purchase and available to all. It looks sharp as long as it's properly maintained (just like any other uniform) and it does the job just fine. Most of all, it's easily affordable to most members and easy to switch over to.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: titanII on July 14, 2011, 07:33:55 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on July 14, 2011, 07:08:10 PM
Why not just switch over to the blue BDU? It's already all worked out and we could simply switch the name tapes to white on navy blue and be done with it. The uniform's already in production, easy to purchase and available to all. It looks sharp as long as it's properly maintained (just like any other uniform) and it does the job just fine. Most of all, it's easily affordable to most members and easy to switch over to.
I agree for the most part- it's still a military style uniform, and a bit more reasonable for ES. The one problem I have with this system is blue BDU's are less accessible or affordable as woodland camo BDU's. People can buy used/surplus woodland camo BDU's at surplus/army navy stores; often at fairly cheap prices. The only place I've found blue BDU's is on the internet, and they were a good bit more expensive than the woodland BDU's at my local army navy store. Too bad..
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: MHC5096 on July 14, 2011, 07:40:31 PM
There are actually a huge number of vendors who stock and sell blue BDU-style utility uniforms. They are a standard in the law enforcement and security community.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: afgeo4 on July 14, 2011, 08:29:54 PM
Quote from: titanII on July 14, 2011, 07:33:55 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on July 14, 2011, 07:08:10 PM
Why not just switch over to the blue BDU? It's already all worked out and we could simply switch the name tapes to white on navy blue and be done with it. The uniform's already in production, easy to purchase and available to all. It looks sharp as long as it's properly maintained (just like any other uniform) and it does the job just fine. Most of all, it's easily affordable to most members and easy to switch over to.
I agree for the most part- it's still a military style uniform, and a bit more reasonable for ES. The one problem I have with this system is blue BDU's are less accessible or affordable as woodland camo BDU's. People can buy used/surplus woodland camo BDU's at surplus/army navy stores; often at fairly cheap prices. The only place I've found blue BDU's is on the internet, and they were a good bit more expensive than the woodland BDU's at my local army navy store. Too bad..
Well, you may hate me for this, but there are a few sources:
1. Vanguard
2. Just about every Army/Navy store online and retail.

What's hard is to find ones that meet military specs. However, we don't really need that, do we? We don't subject our uniforms to such stresses as the active duty military.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: arajca on July 14, 2011, 08:55:01 PM
You can also try police uniform shops.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: titanII on July 15, 2011, 12:02:05 AM
What I was trying to say was BBDU's were difficult to find off the internet. Not all people like to shop online (silly, I know  ::)). And I don't know of any police uniform shop near me, and there is only 1 Army Navy store within a reasonable distance of me. But then again I'm not everyone.

That being said, I would definitely prefer to keep things as are. (Less work! ;D) But if things were to change, I'd be pulling for BBDU's.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: afgeo4 on July 16, 2011, 02:33:35 AM
Quote from: titanII on July 15, 2011, 12:02:05 AM
What I was trying to say was BBDU's were difficult to find off the internet. Not all people like to shop online (silly, I know  ::)). And I don't know of any police uniform shop near me, and there is only 1 Army Navy store within a reasonable distance of me. But then again I'm not everyone.

That being said, I would definitely prefer to keep things as are. (Less work! ;D) But if things were to change, I'd be pulling for BBDU's.
So that being said, where would you have purchased a BDU uniform?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: titanII on July 16, 2011, 02:59:06 AM
 
Quote from: afgeo4 on July 16, 2011, 02:33:35 AM
Quote from: titanII on July 15, 2011, 12:02:05 AM
What I was trying to say was BBDU's were difficult to find off the internet. Not all people like to shop online (silly, I know  ::)). And I don't know of any police uniform shop near me, and there is only 1 Army Navy store within a reasonable distance of me. But then again I'm not everyone.

That being said, I would definitely prefer to keep things as are. (Less work! ;D) But if things were to change, I'd be pulling for BBDU's.
So that being said, where would you have purchased a BDU uniform?
You, sir, have just pointed out the flaw in my argument. Well done, i really had not realized that.  However, submitting to the "not as accessible" argument will lead us to say that everyoje should just wear no uniform at all, wear whatever clothes you have.
As to your question, I got one set of BDU's "issued" to me from my squadron, some pants from my former Army relative, and a shirt from an army surplus store.
I'm officially "out" of this argument now, by the way. Carry on. ;)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Stonewall on July 16, 2011, 06:17:14 AM
Just wrapping up a deployment where I haven't worn ABUs in over 6 months and now having to wear them again for the ride home, my stance on ABUs still stands firm...they suck!

Hot, heavy, and with all the stupid pen pockets, I still put my pen where I've always put it for 17 years now, hidden behind the center button flap.

ABS-Gs (http://www.afcent.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123116783) are the way to go.  Comfortable, lightweight, fire resistant and most of all, FULLY FUNCTIONAL!  Only drawback is the silly tigerstripe pattern and grey/green color scheme.  ABS-Gs in multicam?  Now that's a win win for all involved.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: titanII on July 16, 2011, 12:17:24 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on July 16, 2011, 06:17:14 AM
ABS-Gs (http://www.afcent.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123116783) are the way to go.
For USAF or CAP?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: afgeo4 on July 16, 2011, 01:49:18 PM
Quote from: titanII on July 16, 2011, 12:17:24 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on July 16, 2011, 06:17:14 AM
ABS-Gs (http://www.afcent.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123116783) are the way to go.
For USAF or CAP?
I'm sure he meant for USAF. It's very expensive and there's no real need for it in CAP. We don't wear body armor.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RADIOMAN015 on July 16, 2011, 05:28:43 PM
I think much of this discussion really gets down to individual members costs for these uniforms.   I for one am not for changing anything for many years because of the cost involved in change over.  I think there's plenty of BDU sources available. 

Remember that if you go to ABU's from BDU's you are going to have to change your hat and also jacket, as well as get all those patches/name tags etc sewed on the new uniform.  It is VERY UNLIKELY that the USAF will allow subdued/color matching insignias like the AF is using since it would NOT differentiate CAP members in that uniform.

As far as Blue BDU's go, that  also can be an expensive change over IF one gets the jacket, hat, etc to match. Again I think the organization needs to decide first IF they want everyone to wear a single field uniforms that is VERY distinct and says very clearly we are the CIVIL AIR PATROL  ..  I would assume that the uniform working group is working these type of issues right now OR may have elected to not make any changes.

Personally, performing the assigned missions satisfactorily are more important to me than ANY uniform.
RM 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: davidsinn on July 16, 2011, 05:39:00 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on July 16, 2011, 05:28:43 PM
Personally, performing the assigned missions satisfactorily are more important to me than ANY uniform.


Then why are you always harping on the AF style uniform and demeaning those who wear it?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RADIOMAN015 on July 16, 2011, 06:33:57 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on July 16, 2011, 05:39:00 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on July 16, 2011, 05:28:43 PM
Personally, performing the assigned missions satisfactorily are more important to me than ANY uniform.

Then why are you always harping on the AF style uniform and demeaning those who wear it?
That's a strong term.   Surely some adults do like to play army (without actually joining the military) and joining CAP does give them that option of wearing AF style military uniforms.   I find that the vast majority are dedicated volunteers and are good people.  Unfortunately, there's a very small minority that somehow believe they are in the military and where possible take advantage of the general public's stupidity to not be able to differentiate the real military member and a CAP member.   I sometimes do get a good laugh at some of the adults wearing AF style uniforms, BUT hey I'm easy to entertain :angel:
RM
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: davidsinn on July 16, 2011, 07:09:22 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on July 16, 2011, 06:33:57 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on July 16, 2011, 05:39:00 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on July 16, 2011, 05:28:43 PM
Personally, performing the assigned missions satisfactorily are more important to me than ANY uniform.

Then why are you always harping on the AF style uniform and demeaning those who wear it?
That's a strong term.   Surely some adults do like to play army (without actually joining the military) and joining CAP does give them that option of wearing AF style military uniforms.   I find that the vast majority are dedicated volunteers and are good people.  Unfortunately, there's a very small minority that somehow believe they are in the military and where possible take advantage of the general public's stupidity to not be able to differentiate the real military member and a CAP member.   I sometimes do get a good laugh at some of the adults wearing AF style uniforms, BUT hey I'm easy to entertain :angel:
RM

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on July 15, 2011, 12:57:11 AM
Frankly it's very dubious those adults that are wearing their CAP uniforms (especially the AF type uniforms), really have an interest in representing Civil Air Patrol, but instead our trolling for special favors due to confusion by airline personnel. >:(


Your words.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Stonewall on July 17, 2011, 08:22:55 AM
Quote from: titanII on July 16, 2011, 12:17:24 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on July 16, 2011, 06:17:14 AM
ABS-Gs (http://www.afcent.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123116783) are the way to go.
For USAF or CAP?

They are very expensive because they're fire resistant, but if they made a pair without that feature, they would be perfect.  ABU pattern is perfect for CAP, you can see it from long distances even in thick brush.  I would vote for ABS-Gs for CAP if the price was reasonable.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: titanII on July 17, 2011, 12:26:31 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on July 17, 2011, 08:22:55 AM
ABU pattern is perfect for CAP, you can see it from long distances even in thick brush.
;D
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AngelWings on July 17, 2011, 03:05:48 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on July 17, 2011, 08:22:55 AM
Quote from: titanII on July 16, 2011, 12:17:24 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on July 16, 2011, 06:17:14 AM
ABS-Gs (http://www.afcent.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123116783) are the way to go.
For USAF or CAP?

They are very expensive because they're fire resistant, but if they made a pair without that feature, they would be perfect.  ABU pattern is perfect for CAP, you can see it from long distances even in thick brush.  I would vote for ABS-Gs for CAP if the price was reasonable.
Definately. The ABU doesn't blend into much, so it fits our bill,.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Grumpy on July 17, 2011, 03:18:10 PM
Quote from: PHall on May 25, 2011, 02:59:53 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on May 25, 2011, 02:08:43 AM
The USAF requirement for all servicemembers to be in ABU's is Novemberish/ End of Third Fiscal Quarter. After that date, it'll take a minimum of a year to start an official phase-in of ABU's, but that is in a best of case situation.

The USAF requirement is September 30, 2011.  The AF has said in the past that when they have all of their people in the ABU that CAP would then be allowed to wear it.
From what I have heard/seen, the only stumbling block right now is how "our" insignia will differ from the USAF.
We still have to figure out what we want and then we have to get it approved by the AF.
But the AF has said in the past that they want us in the ABU.

Why not just keep the same blue and white tapes we've always had?  Every time we turn around SOMEBODY wants to reinvent the horse.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: davidsinn on July 17, 2011, 03:40:30 PM
Quote from: Grumpy on July 17, 2011, 03:18:10 PM
Quote from: PHall on May 25, 2011, 02:59:53 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on May 25, 2011, 02:08:43 AM
The USAF requirement for all servicemembers to be in ABU's is Novemberish/ End of Third Fiscal Quarter. After that date, it'll take a minimum of a year to start an official phase-in of ABU's, but that is in a best of case situation.

The USAF requirement is September 30, 2011.  The AF has said in the past that when they have all of their people in the ABU that CAP would then be allowed to wear it.
From what I have heard/seen, the only stumbling block right now is how "our" insignia will differ from the USAF.
We still have to figure out what we want and then we have to get it approved by the AF.
But the AF has said in the past that they want us in the ABU.

Why not just keep the same blue and white tapes we've always had?  Every time we turn around SOMEBODY wants to reinvent the horse.

Because they look like crap on the BBDU. It's not so bad on the BDUs but they just look faded and mismatched on the BBDU.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RADIOMAN015 on July 17, 2011, 03:47:07 PM
Quote from: Grumpy on July 17, 2011, 03:18:10 PM
Quote from: PHall on May 25, 2011, 02:59:53 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on May 25, 2011, 02:08:43 AM
The USAF requirement for all servicemembers to be in ABU's is Novemberish/ End of Third Fiscal Quarter. After that date, it'll take a minimum of a year to start an official phase-in of ABU's, but that is in a best of case situation.

The USAF requirement is September 30, 2011.  The AF has said in the past that when they have all of their people in the ABU that CAP would then be allowed to wear it.
From what I have heard/seen, the only stumbling block right now is how "our" insignia will differ from the USAF.
We still have to figure out what we want and then we have to get it approved by the AF.
But the AF has said in the past that they want us in the ABU.

Why not just keep the same blue and white tapes we've always had?  Every time we turn around SOMEBODY wants to reinvent the horse.
Grumpy, I wouldn't worry about that too much.  IF the change EVER comes about, there's absolutely no way the USAF is going to allow CAP to wear anything subdued matching the ABU uniform.  CAP's blue background with white lettering is what they consider "distinctive".   Hasn't the blue background and white lettering been around for at least 25 years or more ??? :-\
RM
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: ol'fido on July 17, 2011, 03:59:36 PM
Longer than that but we weren't changing uniforms every few years either. The pickle suits were around for about 30-40 some odd years in one material or another and BDUs have been around for about 20 years now(these timelines are CAP only).
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Buzz on July 17, 2011, 07:21:10 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on July 17, 2011, 03:47:07 PMHasn't the blue background and white lettering been around for at least 25 years or more ?

At least 40 years, that's what we had when I come in as a cadet.

However, at the time, AF fatigues also had white on blue, so we matched.

I think that white on blue is a good standard with everything but the BBDU.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AngelWings on July 18, 2011, 12:16:16 AM
 If we go to ABU's, we should update to ABU style name/service tapes. It would be disrespectful to the members of the USAF to be wearing the ABU's with such a ugly set of tapes.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Zen Master Charlie on July 18, 2011, 12:45:26 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on July 18, 2011, 12:16:16 AM
If we go to ABU's, we should update to ABU style name/service tapes. It would be disrespectful to the members of the USAF to be wearing the ABU's with such a ugly set of tapes.

Try getting that one past the Air Force  ;)

There is a lot of history behind our uniform, involving the Air Force, and most of it inst very glamerous... There is a reason behind everything we wear, and the Air Force has the final say in what we use (if its their's)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AngelWings on July 18, 2011, 03:52:53 AM
Quote from: Zen Master Charlie on July 18, 2011, 12:45:26 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on July 18, 2011, 12:16:16 AM
If we go to ABU's, we should update to ABU style name/service tapes. It would be disrespectful to the members of the USAF to be wearing the ABU's with such a ugly set of tapes.

Try getting that one past the Air Force  ;)

There is a lot of history behind our uniform, involving the Air Force, and most of it inst very glamerous... There is a reason behind everything we wear, and the Air Force has the final say in what we use (if its their's)
I get what you are saying, and I don't argue the point. What I'm going to say is just in frustration with the history.
What's so special about blue tapes? Did someone not get the memo that we switched to the BDU's? If they want to make us look like a bunch of wannabes, then critize us about that, then something is terribly wrong. I don't see much of a history between the blue tapes and CAP. I see no need for it, because the service tape is supposed to identify what organziation your in, so it is counterproductive to keep the blue tapes. We don't even use "U.S" in our service tapes, so I don't even get it. And to kill any idea that the blue tapes make us distinctive, on 4th of july, I was in a parade, and our blue tapes were has visible has can be, and we still had people calling us soldiers. It doesn't serve a distinctive purpose because the uniform itself is military, and that is what people see and connect with the military. If we want to be distinctive, how about we wear pink boots  :) :'( ? 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: titanII on July 18, 2011, 01:36:21 PM
Quote from: Littleguy on July 18, 2011, 03:52:53 AM
the service tape is supposed to identify what organziation your in, so it is counterproductive to keep the blue tapes.
I think the word you were looking for is redundant, as both the service tape and the ultramarine blue identify us as Civil Air Patrol

And as for the rest of your post, civvies may not be able to distinguish us from the military, but I think that those in the military can. That has to count for something. The point of being distinctive is to be distinctive from other uniformed services, but not so distinctive that we are no longer a uniformed service.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Hawk200 on July 18, 2011, 02:50:39 PM
I'd be happy with navy blue tapes, rank, and accoutrements. Tapes and rank are available now, all we'd need are the other insignia.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AngelWings on July 18, 2011, 04:54:51 PM
Quote from: titanII on July 18, 2011, 01:36:21 PM
Quote from: Littleguy on July 18, 2011, 03:52:53 AM
the service tape is supposed to identify what organziation your in, so it is counterproductive to keep the blue tapes.
I think the word you were looking for is redundant, as both the service tape and the ultramarine blue identify us as Civil Air Patrol

And as for the rest of your post, civvies may not be able to distinguish us from the military, but I think that those in the military can. That has to count for something. The point of being distinctive is to be distinctive from other uniformed services, but not so distinctive that we are no longer a uniformed service.
The service tape is all we need. Most of the time, you'll see guys in the guard look at your blouse, and read the tape mentally, and say "Oh, your in Civil Air Patrol?". It is overly redundant (counterproductive doesn't fit in nearly has well has redundant). I trust them to read the tapes like a normal person. There is nothing positively distinctive about ultramarine blue. It looks stupid on a camouflage uniform. It didn't even look that great on the greens IMO , let alone the lime green, desert tan, tree brown, and shadow black BDU. It is just going to look worse on the ABU when we get it. It is time to update to the current times, rather than staying in the 70's.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: lordmonar on July 18, 2011, 05:16:17 PM
If we need instant distiction in ABU's.....I propose a blue base ball cap with squadron patch on it.

It allows us to keep the squadron patchs....and is instantly identifies us at ranges up to 5 miles as CAP.

There is precidence in the USAF for this sort of thing....the Red Horse guys all wear red hats.

That way we go with subdued tapes and ranks....and don't have to come up with anything special for things like the APEX jacket and such.

If we are in a hats off situation.....we will all be at ranges where we can read "Civil Air Patrol" on the name tapes.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AngelWings on July 18, 2011, 07:38:39 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 18, 2011, 05:16:17 PM
If we need instant distiction in ABU's.....I propose a blue base ball cap with squadron patch on it.

It allows us to keep the squadron patchs....and is instantly identifies us at ranges up to 5 miles as CAP.

There is precidence in the USAF for this sort of thing....the Red Horse guys all wear red hats.

That way we go with subdued tapes and ranks....and don't have to come up with anything special for things like the APEX jacket and such.

If we are in a hats off situation.....we will all be at ranges where we can read "Civil Air Patrol" on the name tapes.
I'd say we stick away from the speciality hats. It is time to look like we are the USAF Aux, not USAF wannabes. AFJROTC wears subdued insignia and regular Patrol Caps, so why shouldn't we? We are alot more USAF intwined than AFJROTC to begin with.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: lordmonar on July 18, 2011, 07:57:16 PM
I agree with you in principle.....but we do have to consider the USAF's supposed need to keep us distinctive.

Comparing us with AFJROTC is a little different because their cadets are not wearing Col's Birds.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Hawk200 on July 18, 2011, 11:36:42 PM
Quote from: Littleguy on July 18, 2011, 07:38:39 PMIt is time to look like we are the USAF Aux, not USAF wannabes. AFJROTC wears subdued insignia and regular Patrol Caps, so why shouldn't we?
Keep in mind that the color of our tapes isn't up to us. If you want an answer to that, you need to find someone in the Air Force that is responsible for that particular configuration and get the answer from them. No one with CAP knows the true answer at present.

Yes, there are things about being significantly different in low light conditions, but the why is not presently known. (And I'm talking the legitimate "why" not the hearsay.)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AngelWings on July 19, 2011, 12:14:20 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 18, 2011, 11:36:42 PM
Quote from: Littleguy on July 18, 2011, 07:38:39 PMIt is time to look like we are the USAF Aux, not USAF wannabes. AFJROTC wears subdued insignia and regular Patrol Caps, so why shouldn't we?
Keep in mind that the color of our tapes isn't up to us. If you want an answer to that, you need to find someone in the Air Force that is responsible for that particular configuration and get the answer from them. No one with CAP knows the true answer at present.

Yes, there are things about being significantly different in low light conditions, but the why is not presently known. (And I'm talking the legitimate "why" not the hearsay.)
Yeah, that is 100 percent true, it is frustrating though. I think it does more harm than good. I wonder who it is, now that you bring it up.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AngelWings on July 19, 2011, 12:20:19 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 18, 2011, 07:57:16 PM
I agree with you in principle.....but we do have to consider the USAF's supposed need to keep us distinctive.

Comparing us with AFJROTC is a little different because their cadets are not wearing Col's Birds.
Thats a good point, but I do think that a cadet will typically look different than a AD, Guard, or Reserve Airman. I think that there is alot of concerns about things that can happen, but not about things that happened or are happening (like us wearing Blue Tapes and looking stupid).
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on July 19, 2011, 12:51:55 AM
Quote from: Littleguy on July 19, 2011, 12:20:19 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 18, 2011, 07:57:16 PM
I agree with you in principle.....but we do have to consider the USAF's supposed need to keep us distinctive.

Comparing us with AFJROTC is a little different because their cadets are not wearing Col's Birds.
Thats a good point, but I do think that a cadet will typically look different than a AD, Guard, or Reserve Airman. I think that there is alot of concerns about things that can happen, but not about things that happened or are happening (like us wearing Blue Tapes and looking stupid).

My last year at an Encampment as a Cadet, I was older than some of the Navy recruits doing the real deal. Depending on the size and bearing, a cadet can easily be confused with someone on AD, Guard or Reserve duty.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: lordmonar on July 19, 2011, 01:29:34 AM
Well....that the real sticking point with any discussion on our level about CAP uniforms.

With out clear guidance from the USAF about their wants, needs, fears or concerns....it is a lot of wheel spinning.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: zonaman on July 19, 2011, 02:48:17 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 19, 2011, 01:29:34 AM

With out clear guidance from the USAF about their wants, needs, fears or concerns....it is a lot of wheel spinning.

IMHO the Air Force is a professional military service that knows exactly what they want. If the AF can't manage something small like CAP uniforms they would probably be hurting in other areas, and the "grey area confusion" may be coming from CAP HQ. OR I could be totally wrong and this really is an AF issue or joint AF, CAP issue.

Ether way I think CAP needs to (insert comment here) and go to the AF and say this this is the uniform want will you approve it? But what do I know other than just hearsay, maybe HQ does that. I don't work there.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: lordmonar on July 19, 2011, 02:57:58 AM
???

Well as a 22 year veteran and a current USAF defense contractor....I know that the USAF can have issues with manageing both the small stuff and the large stuff.

Either way.....what I said stands.....with out clear guidance, beyond speculation, we can suggest a lot of thing but it may all just be an exercise in futility.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Smokey on July 19, 2011, 03:06:29 AM
I don't have too much heartache with blue tapes, although I would prefer something else.  But WHY does it have to be ultramarine blue???!!!

That color went out with advocado kitchen appliances and disco.  Navy Blue would be much better.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: zonaman on July 19, 2011, 03:29:44 AM
A while back someone had a picture of a uniform that had grey tapes with white (or off white) lettering as a possability. It didn't look half bad. Or am I trying to bring back to life a dead horse?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: BrianH76 on July 19, 2011, 01:53:17 PM
Quote from: Smokey on July 19, 2011, 03:06:29 AM
I don't have too much heartache with blue tapes, although I would prefer something else.  But WHY does it have to be ultramarine blue???!!!

That color went out with advocado kitchen appliances and disco.  Navy Blue would be much better.

Personally, I'm fine with what we've already got.  However, if we switch to something else, it should be a color that can be worn with all utility uniforms (ABU, BDU, BBDU).  The corporate uniform and its unique nametags created a lot of confusion among members.  For some reason, Vanguard still sells these items, and I still see cadets showing up to activities wearing the two-line corporate nametag with the AF Service Uniform.  We don't need a similar situation with our utility uniforms.  Keep it simple.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Grumpy on July 19, 2011, 04:01:29 PM
Quote from: BrianH76 on July 19, 2011, 01:53:17 PM
Quote from: Smokey on July 19, 2011, 03:06:29 AM
I don't have too much heartache with blue tapes, although I would prefer something else.  But WHY does it have to be ultramarine blue???!!!

That color went out with advocado kitchen appliances and disco.  Navy Blue would be much better.

Personally, I'm fine with what we've already got.  However, if we switch to something else, it should be a color that can be worn with all utility uniforms (ABU, BDU, BBDU).  The corporate uniform and its unique nametags created a lot of confusion among members.  For some reason, Vanguard still sells these items, and I still see cadets showing up to activities wearing the two-line corporate nametag with the AF Service Uniform.  We don't need a similar situation with our utility uniforms.  Keep it simple.

The horse has been invented.  Why reinvent it?  People talk about saving money but seems like every two years or so (little exaggeration there) we have to start investigating new uniforms.  Wouldn't money spent on aircraft and other equipment be put to better use?

I can remember using the blue tape since 1959 when I first joined.  It works.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: titanII on July 19, 2011, 04:41:26 PM
Quote from: BrianH76 on July 19, 2011, 01:53:17 PM
Personally, I'm fine with what we've already got.
+1
We look enough like the AF in BDU's. Why switch?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: MIKE on July 19, 2011, 05:24:54 PM
Your argument is short sighted and fails to consider that the BDU may not be around forever.  Consider if we were still wearing OG 107s today instead of switching to BDUs in the early '90s. 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: BrianH76 on July 19, 2011, 09:46:22 PM
Quote from: titanII on July 19, 2011, 04:41:26 PM
Quote from: BrianH76 on July 19, 2011, 01:53:17 PM
Personally, I'm fine with what we've already got.
+1
We look enough like the AF in BDU's. Why switch?
I wasn't suggesting we stick with BDUs.  We're part of the AF and should wear what the AF wears.  I was referring to the color of nametapes.  If, after a switch to a new uniform, we adopt a new color of nametapes, we should adopt a color that can be worn with both the ABU and the BBDU. 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: ol'fido on July 19, 2011, 09:53:04 PM
Quote from: BrianH76 on July 19, 2011, 09:46:22 PM
Quote from: titanII on July 19, 2011, 04:41:26 PM
Quote from: BrianH76 on July 19, 2011, 01:53:17 PM
Personally, I'm fine with what we've already got.
+1
We look enough like the AF in BDU's. Why switch?
I wasn't suggesting we stick with BDUs.  We're part of the AF and should wear what the AF wears.  I was referring to the color of nametapes.  If, after a switch to a new uniform, we adopt a new color of nametapes, we should adopt a color that can be worn with both the ABU and the BBDU.
This argument/opinion/ suggestion has made more laps on CT this year than NASCAR. Not dumping on you specifically but I'm saying.....
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Hawk200 on July 20, 2011, 03:15:55 AM
Quote from: BrianH76 on July 19, 2011, 01:53:17 PM
However, if we switch to something else, it should be a color that can be worn with all utility uniforms (ABU, BDU, BBDU).  The corporate uniform and its unique nametags created a lot of confusion among members.  For some reason, Vanguard still sells these items, and I still see cadets showing up to activities wearing the two-line corporate nametag with the AF Service Uniform.  We don't need a similar situation with our utility uniforms.  Keep it simple.
Hey, who are you? You can't be coming in here making sense and all that stuff. Someone could fry a brain cell over things like that!  ;D

Humor aside, I agree wholeheartedly. I don't see why we need different nametags for everything. I'd like to see a brushed silver with "Civil Air Patrol" below the name (for everyone, add mini rank to it for the blazer), the standard three line nameplate for all shirts/blouses (make the cadet one blue if they absolutely must differentiate one for cadets). Quick, easy, and less to worry about. No other nametags authorized. Uniformity.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: titanII on July 20, 2011, 03:43:47 AM
Quote from: MIKE on July 19, 2011, 05:24:54 PM
Your argument is short sighted and fails to consider that the BDU may not be around forever.  Consider if we were still wearing OG 107s today instead of switching to BDUs in the early '90s.
I agree that it is short-sighted, but what is the hurry? ABUs almost just got put into place. CAP started wearing BDUs in the 90's while the RM was wearing woodland camo in Vietnam.
And I would be fine if we were still wearing OG 107s. A little wondering why we weren't "getting with the times" maybe. But not clamoring for a new utility uniform.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RiverAux on July 20, 2011, 08:09:20 PM
Quote from: titanII on July 20, 2011, 03:43:47 AMCAP started wearing BDUs in the 90's while the RM was wearing woodland camo in Vietnam.
There was some tiger stripe, but I've never seen or heard of the woodland camo pattern found in the BDUs since the early 1980s being used in Vietnam. 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Thom on July 20, 2011, 08:24:08 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on July 20, 2011, 08:09:20 PM
Quote from: titanII on July 20, 2011, 03:43:47 AMCAP started wearing BDUs in the 90's while the RM was wearing woodland camo in Vietnam.
There was some tiger stripe, but I've never seen or heard of the woodland camo pattern found in the BDUs since the early 1980s being used in Vietnam.

The M81 Woodland BDU camo pattern is a very slight modification of the ERDL leaf pattern which became standard issue for USMC troops by 68, and was issued to a large contingent of Army troops by the 69-70 timeframe. After the withdrawal of Army troops from Vietnam in 73 the Army changed back to OD green fatigues until the advent of the BDU in 81, while the USMC continued to utilize some camo of the ERDL leaf pattern through the 70s. (I'm not sure what the USAF was doing during that time...)

So, lots of folks wore the ERDL/Woodland BDU pattern camo in Vietnam, though the OD fatigues and relatively less common Tiger Stripe are better remembered. Possibly due to the more unlimited press coverage of the earlier years of the war, with the public becoming less interested and less tolerant, and thus less likely to watch significant film coverage of the troops, in the later years when the ERDL camo became common.


Thom
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Hawk200 on July 20, 2011, 08:27:22 PM
Quote from: titanII on July 20, 2011, 03:43:47 AMCAP started wearing BDUs in the 90's while the RM was wearing woodland camo in Vietnam.
I can't speak for the other branches, but I know for a fact that Air Force general issue for the BDU wasn't until October 1988. I shipped to basic on 14 November that year, and they had just started issuing BDUs to basic trainees in October. The field jacket I was issued in Basic was green because the Air Force hadn't obtained them yet.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: titanII on July 20, 2011, 10:50:31 PM
Thom knows what I was talking about. I was speaking of the ERDL pattern used in Vietnam, which evolved into the pattern we know and love today on BDU's. I wasn't saying that BDU's were used in Vietnam. Just that a similar woodland camouflage pattern was.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on July 20, 2011, 10:57:16 PM
Quote from: titanII on July 20, 2011, 10:50:31 PM
Thom knows what I was talking about. I was speaking of the ERDL pattern used in Vietnam, which evolved into the pattern we know and love today on BDU's. I wasn't saying that BDU's were used in Vietnam. Just that a similar woodland camouflage pattern was.

But were they worn full force in the Air Force? If not, why would we use the earliest date as a base point?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: titanII on July 20, 2011, 10:59:53 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on July 20, 2011, 10:57:16 PM
But were they worn full force in the Air Force? If not, why would we use the earliest date as a base point?
No, I don't think they were used full force in the Air Force. I used the earliest date as a base point to show when that kind of uniform (ERDL/BDU woodland camo) was introduced- regardless of service. (Plus it helps my point for there to be more time btwn Military introduction and CAP introduction   ;) ;D)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Hawk200 on July 21, 2011, 12:39:21 AM
Quote from: titanII on July 20, 2011, 10:59:53 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on July 20, 2011, 10:57:16 PM
But were they worn full force in the Air Force? If not, why would we use the earliest date as a base point?
No, I don't think they were used full force in the Air Force. I used the earliest date as a base point to show when that kind of uniform (ERDL/BDU woodland camo) was introduced- regardless of service. (Plus it helps my point for there to be more time btwn Military introduction and CAP introduction   ;) ;D)
The ERDL camo was a jungle camouflage pattern. It was a lot brighter than woodland, and there are some subtle differences in the shaping.

It doesn't demonstrate anything relating to the point of time between military adoption and CAP adoption. CAP adopts what the Air Force permits, and it wasn't until the '90's that CAP got woodland. The Air Force didn't use the woodland as a widespread issue until '88, and never used ERDL as general issue.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SarDragon on July 21, 2011, 12:54:29 AM
Due to availability issues, the overseas CAP units were permitted to wear woodland BDUs at the same time the AF was.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: titanII on July 21, 2011, 01:25:56 AM
Good points by everyone. I'm gonna cede this to you. Let's switch to ABU's. I'm not gonna be happy about buying new uniform items, but at least I won't have to iron my ABUs or shine my boots.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Hawk200 on July 21, 2011, 02:13:20 AM
Quote from: titanII on July 21, 2011, 01:25:56 AM
I'm not gonna be happy about buying new uniform items, but at least I won't have to iron my ABUs or shine my boots.
I'll agree on the first point, but not shining or ironing is definitely a plus.

I just wish the Air Force had used tan boots instead of those green ones.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: DakRadz on July 21, 2011, 02:46:15 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 21, 2011, 02:13:20 AM
Quote from: titanII on July 21, 2011, 01:25:56 AM
I'm not gonna be happy about buying new uniform items, but at least I won't have to iron my ABUs or shine my boots.
I'll agree on the first point, but not shining or ironing is definitely a plus.

I just wish the Air Force had used tan boots instead of those green ones.
Hey, eBay is amazing. I have some issue Sage Bellevilles with no visible wear I snagged for $20. :D

I bought them for airsoft/working outside, but I'd love to use them for CAP. Until then, they won't be seen in an official uniform worn by me.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on July 21, 2011, 03:16:30 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 18, 2011, 11:36:42 PM
Yes, there are things about being significantly different in low light conditions, but the why is not presently known. (And I'm talking the legitimate "why" not the hearsay.)

Sir, the day you find out what that "low light/at a distance" Bull Durham actually means, please let us all know.  The one who is able to do that should immediately be promoted to Major General and appointed National Commander.  As it is it is just a nebulous phrase that can mean almost anything to anybody and is used every now and then as a cattle prod to put CAP in its place from being too "uppity" about uniform issues.

But, on topic, I would support doing away with all tapes, collar blingage etc, and going with the leather aircrew patch on BDU's, BBDU's and ABU's when we get them  ::) ???.  The Air Force tried it and binned it because officers weren't being recognised for salutes.  We don't really have that issue.

It would save a lot of money and a lot of wear on the uniforms.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: MIKE on July 21, 2011, 03:30:15 AM
The ABS-G uses a cloth ASNP similar to the McPeak BDUs.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Hawk200 on July 21, 2011, 05:49:18 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on July 21, 2011, 03:16:30 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 18, 2011, 11:36:42 PM
Yes, there are things about being significantly different in low light conditions, but the why is not presently known. (And I'm talking the legitimate "why" not the hearsay.)

Sir, the day you find out what that "low light/at a distance" Bull Durham actually means, please let us all know.
Actually, you can let me know, because it's unlikely that I ever would. If I had known, I would have shared. I do recall that it has been mentioned at one of the National Staff get togethers, so it's well above my pay grade (and probably yours as well).
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on July 21, 2011, 06:19:45 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 21, 2011, 05:49:18 AM
Actually, you can let me know, because it's unlikely that I ever would. If I had known, I would have shared. I do recall that it has been mentioned at one of the National Staff get togethers, so it's well above my pay grade (and probably yours as well).

It is above my paygrade too...I am a lowly Captain serving mostly in the background, having never commanded a unit (though I was a Deputy Commander at one time), though hopefully not a Captain-For-Life. :P

That phrase about "low light/at a distance" has always irked the heck out of me, because of its ambiguity.  It can mean almost anything, and it has been used to put the kibosh on existing uniforms (CSU) and to limit what can be done with possible future uniforms (such as subdued tapes for the ABU).
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Hawk200 on July 21, 2011, 09:11:03 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on July 21, 2011, 06:19:45 AM
That phrase about "low light/at a distance" has always irked the heck out of me, because of its ambiguity.  It can mean almost anything,
I agree. It's a little too general for my taste, and I don't care for it's use in any way shape or form. Even in "low light conditions" you could tell the difference between the various branches of military personnel when they all wore the BDU.

Quote from: CyBorg on July 21, 2011, 06:19:45 AM
(such as subdued tapes for the ABU).
Honestly, I don't think we need them. However, I don't think we should have to wear those garish ultramarine blue tapes. I think navy blue accoutrements would be just fine, and we can already get the basic items (tapes and rank) right now. Badges would take only a little longer.

Right now, ABUs from 50 feet don't even look like they have tapes on them. All that is really visible is the rank and any badges that are worn. From that distance, it looks like the person is wearing a badge about an inch and half above their pocket.

Now, something like navy blue nametapes would be obvious at most distances in even low light conditions. You can easily tell there is something over the pockets. It's not obvious with Air Force tapes that are the same pattern as the uniform it's sewed on to. Dark blue actually looks decent, and it's in full compliance with "low light" issues to any reasonable person.

I'd be happy if they told us dark blue tapes, and all the accoutrements in the standard Air Force colors. Wouldn't be much different than most of the State Guards out there. Upside is no special rank insignia, use the Air Force stuff. No special cloth colors either.

Of course, I can see some genius wearing the Air Force subdued tapes on it in full violation of the policy, and getting us all in trouble.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: zonaman on July 22, 2011, 01:15:08 AM
I find reading uniform threads intrestring. So many strong opinions in different directions, and most with good points or useable ideas.

I would really like to know if other cadet/similar organizations like JROTC, CG-AUX, Sea Cadets, Devil Pups, ect. have similar problems with there uniforms. In my experience I have seen the Sea Cadets in uniform. There uniforms are very close to the navy, especially the adult leadership. I understand they even assist the AD Navy on docked ships. Everything on the uniform is subdued. I can't imagine they don't run into problems. I don't see the Navy turning the Sea Cadet BDU into a "Christmas tree" (CAP BDU).

I'm not in the Sea Cadets and don't know how they operate. I only know what I've seen. It appears to me that CAP or the AF decides to punish the entire organization (CAP) because of a few bad apples.
I was just wondering. Maybe someone can fill me in.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SAR-EMT1 on July 22, 2011, 01:22:29 AM
CG Aux is ALMOST identical to AD CG with two exceptions:   
Black "A" superimposed on top of rank patches.
Service tape reads "USCG Auxiliary" instead of "USCG"

My ROTC uniforms were identical to AD USAF with Rank insignia being the exception:

ROTC's make use of cadet officer insignia identical to that used by our own cadinks.
Shoulder boards were dark blue slides with white stripes similar to the CAP Flight Officer insignia.
Nametapes said " US Air Force"
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RiverAux on July 22, 2011, 03:34:06 AM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on July 22, 2011, 01:22:29 AM
CG Aux is ALMOST identical to AD CG with two exceptions:   
Black "A" superimposed on top of rank patches.
Service tape reads "USCG Auxiliary" instead of "USCG"
But realize that you will also find a few CG Auxies that don't think that we deserve to wear that uniform and that we should be in all civilian clothes or something totally distinctive.  I'm not one of them, but they exist. 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: PHall on July 22, 2011, 03:55:02 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on July 22, 2011, 03:34:06 AM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on July 22, 2011, 01:22:29 AM
CG Aux is ALMOST identical to AD CG with two exceptions:   
Black "A" superimposed on top of rank patches.
Service tape reads "USCG Auxiliary" instead of "USCG"
But realize that you will also find a few CG Auxies that don't think that we deserve to wear that uniform and that we should be in all civilian clothes or something totally distinctive.  I'm not one of them, but they exist.

RADIOMAN015 is an Auxie? >:D
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: biomed441 on July 22, 2011, 04:27:52 AM
Quote from: zonaman on July 22, 2011, 01:15:08 AM
I find reading uniform threads intrestring. So many strong opinions in different directions, and most with good points or useable ideas.

I would really like to know if other cadet/similar organizations like JROTC, CG-AUX, Sea Cadets, Devil Pups, ect. have similar problems with there uniforms. In my experience I have seen the Sea Cadets in uniform. There uniforms are very close to the navy, especially the adult leadership. I understand they even assist the AD Navy on docked ships. Everything on the uniform is subdued. I can't imagine they don't run into problems. I don't see the Navy turning the Sea Cadet BDU into a "Christmas tree" (CAP BDU).

I'm not in the Sea Cadets and don't know how they operate. I only know what I've seen. It appears to me that CAP or the AF decides to punish the entire organization (CAP) because of a few bad apples.
I was just wondering. Maybe someone can fill me in.

Sea cadets wear very very similar uniforms to the USN, as do their senior leadership, but they also have a much more focused vision on military education and naval orientation where as CAP has 3 missions to worry about.  If you look at a lot of the arguments for and against uniforms here, especially the utility uniforms; arguments often draw from their function in our ES mission.  Sea Cadets don't have that issue as they are Cadet Program only, and the Navy recognizes them more as an alternative to JROTC.  CAP, while our Cadet Program could compare in some respects to JROTC, its not everything that we are.  If all CAP was was a community based USAF cadet program, then I would expect to see uniforms much more in line with the USAF.  My 2 cents anyways.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on July 22, 2011, 05:08:00 PM
Quote from: zonaman on July 22, 2011, 01:15:08 AM
I find reading uniform threads intrestring. So many strong opinions in different directions, and most with good points or useable ideas.

Yes, but many of those useable ideas will never be used because of ever-present CAP politics and the unfounded fear that anything we do that would deviate from the status quo would automatically tick off the Air Force.

Quote from: zonaman on July 22, 2011, 01:15:08 AM
I would really like to know if other cadet/similar organizations like JROTC, CG-AUX, Sea Cadets, Devil Pups, ect. have similar problems with there uniforms.

"Devil Pups?"  Do you mean the Young Marines?

I can only speak from direct experience about the USCGAUX, having served with them.  Their uniforms are identical to the CG in almost every way, except for the silver office braid (they don't hold ranks; they hold an alphabet soup of office designations) and the fact that their metal office insignia has either a blue or red "A" affixed.  They do not observe military courtesies among one another, though they are required to with the Armed Forces.  The National Commodore, USCGAUX, who wears three stars, is obligated to salute a brand-new Warrant Officer 1.  They are much more integrated with their parent service than CAP will ever be again.

The Commandant of the Coast Guard, Admiral Robert J. Papp Jr., has an official policy for their Auxiliary...I would be surprised if CSAF, General Norton Schwartz, has much more than a cursory knowledge of CAP.

Quote from: zonaman on July 22, 2011, 01:15:08 AM
In my experience I have seen the Sea Cadets in uniform. There uniforms are very close to the navy, especially the adult leadership. I understand they even assist the AD Navy on docked ships. Everything on the uniform is subdued. I can't imagine they don't run into problems. I don't see the Navy turning the Sea Cadet BDU into a "Christmas tree" (CAP BDU).

I've talked with a few, most recently an Ensign from the local unit.  A few years ago I considered joining up with them, because the CAP squadron I was in was basically a pilots-only flying club and there weren't any others nearby but was told in so many words that they did not need the services of "CAP rejects."   >:( ??? :-[  This was about 10 years ago, and I lived in another state/wing.

Quote from: zonaman on July 22, 2011, 01:15:08 AM
It appears to me that CAP or the AF decides to punish the entire organization (CAP) because of a few bad apples.

That's a fairly accurate assessment.  We used to be MUCH more integrated with the AF than we are now, and our uniforms were much closer.  We wore the same blue shoulder marks that they did, with the addition of "CAP," and we wore metal grade insignia.  The only real differences were our nameplates and "CAP" collar brass.

But...a few of those "bad apples" you mention put the kibosh on that in the early '90s, doing stupid things like trolling for salutes and trying to give orders to AF enlisted personnel which they had no authority to give.  The AF has been punishing us ever since, first with maroon epaulettes, loss of metal rank, then a half-measure of leniency with grey epaulettes.  A former squadron CC of mine knew former National CC BG Richard Anderson personally, and the General told him that "CAP will never get hard rank or blue epaulettes back."

Part of the punishment is self-flagellation on the part of CAP leadership.  You have no doubt read elsewhere about the saga of the Corporate Service Uniform, which is a good example.  As I see it, CAP upper echelons are still so nervous about the events of the late '80s/early '90s that they see a "this will tick off the AF" bogeyman under every bed.  Others will no doubt disagree.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on July 22, 2011, 05:09:22 PM
Quote from: Captainbob441 on July 22, 2011, 04:27:52 AM
If all CAP was was a community based USAF cadet program, then I would expect to see uniforms much more in line with the USAF.

I very strongly doubt it, based on events of the late '80s and early '90s that we're still being punished/punishing ourselves for.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RiverAux on July 22, 2011, 05:37:41 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on July 22, 2011, 05:08:00 PM
We used to be MUCH more integrated with the AF than we are now, and our uniforms were much closer. 
While our uniforms have certainly been closer to the AF in the past, I would argue that CAP has never really been "integrated" with the AF in any operational sense except for a very, very limited extent during WWII (there were only a few thousand CAP personnel involved with the "active" AF missions like coastal patrol, tow target training, etc. out of 100K+ CAP members at any one time). 

One might even argue that CAP has been more integrated with the AF in recent years through AFNORTH tracking of CAP missions and various small AF taskings (intercept missions, full-motion video training, a few major exercises, etc.).  However, like WWII, the number of CAP people involved in those activities is tiny.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: biomed441 on July 22, 2011, 10:19:52 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on July 22, 2011, 05:09:22 PM
Quote from: Captainbob441 on July 22, 2011, 04:27:52 AM
If all CAP was was a community based USAF cadet program, then I would expect to see uniforms much more in line with the USAF.

I very strongly doubt it, based on events of the late '80s and early '90s that we're still being punished/punishing ourselves for.

Oh I don't disagree with you in that respect.  I was meaning more on a speculative level, had CAP not been as broad of a program to begin with prior to those events and only designed to support a cadet program like the Sea Cadets and Young Marines, USACC Etc...

As for the being punished/punishing ourselves.  I'm not at the top so whatever politics are being played involved with "punishing ourselves" needs to stop.  If the USAF Says no, then they say no.  What is the logic in punishing ourselves if that is in fact what we are doing?  Has anyone ever just tried to asked if we can get back some of what we lost?  Maybe the AF is more forgiving than we think it is?  :-\



Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on July 22, 2011, 10:40:42 PM
Quote from: Captainbob441 on July 22, 2011, 10:19:52 PM
As for the being punished/punishing ourselves.  I'm not at the top so whatever politics are being played involved with "punishing ourselves" needs to stop.  If the USAF Says no, then they say no.  What is the logic in punishing ourselves if that is in fact what we are doing?  Has anyone ever just tried to asked if we can get back some of what we lost?  Maybe the AF is more forgiving than we think it is?  :-\

Good points and a good question.

However, I think that in the aftermath of the previous Generalissimo and the way he "introduced" a perfectly good uniform that's being canned for no good reason I can see, I think those higher up the food chain don't really want to push any uniform issue with the AF.

I'd be good with blue CAP epaulets and nameplate to be used both on the white and light blue shirt and service coat, or brushed silver two-line nameplate on service coat, and replace "U.S." collar brass with "CAP," but no way in heck will the issue be broached other than here on CT.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: afgeo4 on July 23, 2011, 07:18:03 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on July 22, 2011, 05:08:00 PM
Quote from: zonaman on July 22, 2011, 01:15:08 AM
The National Commodore, USCGAUX, who wears three stars, is obligated to salute a brand-new Warrant Officer 1. 

USCG Auxiliary members are required to render salute military officers holding rank higher than their office position's equivalent rank. Thus, Commodores are not required to salute anyone who holds less stars than they do. The Coast Guard recognizes that USCG Auxiliary members are civilians without rank, but in an effort to not confuse the public, members who wear seemingly higher rank only salute those higher ranked than them. It is also the reason why USCG Auxiliary members are often required to wear the Member insignia on their uniforms while augmenting active/reserve forces of the Coast Guard. It prevents confusion from seeing a LT saluting a Petty Officer.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on July 23, 2011, 10:55:49 PM
^^New one on me.  I stand corrected.

When I was in the Aux, it was made clear to me that all military commissioned and warrant officers outranked me, no matter how many rings I had (for the record: VFC, 1 1/2 rings) and therefore I was to salute them.

I never augmented but just in case I kept a set of Member insignia in the pocket of my working blues.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: zonaman on July 24, 2011, 02:51:09 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on July 22, 2011, 05:08:00 PM
Part of the punishment is self-flagellation on the part of CAP leadership.  You have no doubt read elsewhere about the saga of the Corporate Service Uniform, which is a good example.  As I see it, CAP upper echelons are still so nervous about the events of the late '80s/early '90s that they see a "this will tick off the AF" bogeyman under every bed.  Others will no doubt disagree.

You mean it's been 20 to 30 years since the "bad apples"!? . . . and the "upper echelons" are still walking on eggshells!?. . .  oh-man, somebody do something!

I had no idea it was like that. I joined CAP in the late 90's, BDU's that look like Christmas trees and grey epaulets are all I know besides a few old pictures I've seen. -- BTW the whole "Christmas tree" thing came from AF personell that used to work with my squadron a while back. It was all in good humor.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on July 24, 2011, 07:01:51 PM
When I first joined ('93) we had just had the maroon epaulettes inflicted on us by the AF not long before.  However, we still had blue three-line nameplates.

The "berry boards" were bloody ugly. 

(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/RANK-OFC/thumbs/~1stLt-4E.jpg)

As soon as the marginally-better grey ones came out, I canned those horrible berry boards.

I would think that getting back the blue CAP epaulettes would be a step in the right direction, including wearing them on the service dress.

(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/RANK-OFC/thumbs/~Capt-3E.jpg)

If one cannot tell that is a Civil Air Patrol insignia, it is not a problem with "low light" or "at a distance."  The problem is that the viewer is illiterate.

We used to have solid green background rank, but even if we get the ABU, you can bet we'll still have the ultramarine blue.

(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/RANK-OFC/thumbs/~Capt2.jpg)

If it doesn't look like, as you said, a uniform "Christmas tree," those up the food chain start worrying that the AF is going to somehow get ticked off again.

As regards the ABU, though...honestly, I don't ever see it happening for us.  There is a mindset in CAP about "distinctiveness" and I don't think there is a way to make the ABU look "distinctive" enough.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Hawk200 on July 24, 2011, 07:21:55 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on July 24, 2011, 07:01:51 PMAs regards the ABU, though...honestly, I don't ever see it happening for us.  There is a mindset in CAP about "distinctiveness" and I don't think there is a way to make the ABU look "distinctive" enough.
Blue tapes/rank/insignia on a BDU looked distinctive enough. Don't see why it wouldn't be considered for the next uniform. Just hope it's a more appealing blue than the current.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: afgeo4 on July 25, 2011, 02:12:46 AM
Quote from: zonaman on July 24, 2011, 02:51:09 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on July 22, 2011, 05:08:00 PM
Part of the punishment is self-flagellation on the part of CAP leadership.  You have no doubt read elsewhere about the saga of the Corporate Service Uniform, which is a good example.  As I see it, CAP upper echelons are still so nervous about the events of the late '80s/early '90s that they see a "this will tick off the AF" bogeyman under every bed.  Others will no doubt disagree.

You mean it's been 20 to 30 years since the "bad apples"!? . . . and the "upper echelons" are still walking on eggshells!?. . .  oh-man, somebody do something!

I had no idea it was like that. I joined CAP in the late 90's, BDU's that look like Christmas trees and grey epaulets are all I know besides a few old pictures I've seen. -- BTW the whole "Christmas tree" thing came from AF personell that used to work with my squadron a while back. It was all in good humor.

Also in good humor... the Army always referred to AF BDUs as Christmas trees because of all the pretty patches we wore. The Air Force is historically non-subdued. It never needed to be honestly. Still doesn't. The only Airmen that do beyond the fence work wear Army uniforms most of the time anyway.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: JBC on July 26, 2011, 10:00:51 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 24, 2011, 07:21:55 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on July 24, 2011, 07:01:51 PMAs regards the ABU, though...honestly, I don't ever see it happening for us.  There is a mindset in CAP about "distinctiveness" and I don't think there is a way to make the ABU look "distinctive" enough.
Blue tapes/rank/insignia on a BDU looked distinctive enough. Don't see why it wouldn't be considered for the next uniform. Just hope it's a more appealing blue than the current.
Possibly some moderately less repulsive navy blue tapes. The '60s tapes are the only part of the current uniform I have trouble continuing to stomach. Except for the boy-scoutish model rocketry patch.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: J. Wilson on August 05, 2011, 12:37:43 AM
I doubt we'll be in ABUs anytime soon.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Hawk200 on August 05, 2011, 02:17:56 AM
Quote from: J. Wilson on August 05, 2011, 12:37:43 AM
I doubt we'll be in ABUs anytime soon.
What makes you say that?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: HGjunkie on August 07, 2011, 12:45:43 AM
I've heard it all about ABU's. First, it was supposed to happen in 2011. Now, it's supposed to start in 2015 from what I've heard. I think the issue should be dropped until NHQ comes out with a policy on it.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Tim Medeiros on August 07, 2011, 12:49:00 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on August 07, 2011, 12:45:43 AM
I think the issue should be dropped until NHQ comes out with a policy on it.
I would agree, but then I realize this is CAPTalk, and that the topic gets picked up by new members every couple of months.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: HGjunkie on August 07, 2011, 12:56:26 AM
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on August 07, 2011, 12:49:00 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on August 07, 2011, 12:45:43 AM
I think the issue should be dropped until NHQ comes out with a policy on it.
I would agree, but then I realize this is CAPTalk, and that the topic gets picked up by new members every couple of months.

Well in that case, Play game!
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: cust0s on August 07, 2011, 01:22:18 PM
I'll bite!

I have mixed feelings about the issue.  On one hand I think there should be some sort of change because usually change can be a good thing and even motivate esprit de corps and boost unit morale.  I hear old and new members always asking.  Constructively we can assess priorities for why we would want to make a uniform change and then stick to it.  I personally would like a one size fits all based on the needed application for the uniform (e.g. one type of BDU, dress uniform, flight suit for pilots and mission scanners, etc., and of course a one type distinctive uniform respective for the overweight and grooming standard members, and yes, even if that just means a polo shirt option).  On the other hand, I would hate to see excellent members who may not have much cash in the bank at the moment and who also have a current uniform but unable to purchase a new uniform and subsequently miss some of the meetings (I like the phase out approach in that case).

Overall, they could revamp all of the uniform regs.  Specifically, if you're going to have specialty patches and related items for any uniform, then make sure that vanguard is carrying these items for all specialties, duties, etc.  If not, then why even have them?  Moreover, maybe we should go to a velcro uniform...  I mean think about it, whenever you get promoted, demoted, new rating, new unit, etc.... then you could rip off and slap on the new patch.  Also, if we were ever to get ABUs and lets say that you were also active duty Air Force or reserve, then no need to buy a new uniform, if you are at CAP slap on the CAP distinctive velcro name tape, and other patches, and voila.  Also, the vice versa would be same when you go back to work.  You could keep some of these in your pocket and save time.  Perhaps we're allowed to used velcro on our own initiative?  Does anyone know otherwise?  Correct me if I'm wrong.

This is just a thought, but it could make us more uniform.  I love the corporate side of things but I also think that we just look awful in formation with a few seniors in Polos or varying uniforms of the like. *shrug*  Otherwise, don't forget that when the Air Force became it's own branch it wanted to be as distinctive as possible from the Army.  Similarly, we should resemble the Air Force, but we should also have pride in our own distinctiveness...whatever that may end up being in the long run.

Again, just a thought, but who knows when, if ever, anything as far as uniforms will change....
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: DakRadz on August 07, 2011, 02:42:26 PM
Quote from: cust0s on August 07, 2011, 01:22:18 PM
Otherwise, don't forget that when the Air Force became it's own branch it wanted to be as distinctive as possible from the Army.  Similarly, we should resemble the Air Force, but we should also have pride in our own distinctiveness...whatever that may end up being in the long run.

Again, just a thought, but who knows when, if ever, anything as far as uniforms will change....

But they went from being "Army Air Forces" to definite, independent, pure "Air Force."

We are the Air Force Auxiliary, and the Air Force has a vote on our Ruling Council of Overlords. Air Force is kinda a key piece of the puzzle.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: tsrup on August 08, 2011, 06:57:43 AM
Quote from: cust0s on August 07, 2011, 01:22:18 PM
I'll bite!

I have mixed feelings about the issue.  On one hand I think there should be some sort of change because usually change can be a good thing and even motivate esprit de corps and boost unit morale.  I hear old and new members always asking.  Constructively we can assess priorities for why we would want to make a uniform change and then stick to it.  I personally would like a one size fits all based on the needed application for the uniform (e.g. one type of BDU, dress uniform, flight suit for pilots and mission scanners, etc., and of course a one type distinctive uniform respective for the overweight and grooming standard members, and yes, even if that just means a polo shirt option).  On the other hand, I would hate to see excellent members who may not have much cash in the bank at the moment and who also have a current uniform but unable to purchase a new uniform and subsequently miss some of the meetings (I like the phase out approach in that case).

Overall, they could revamp all of the uniform regs.  Specifically, if you're going to have specialty patches and related items for any uniform, then make sure that vanguard is carrying these items for all specialties, duties, etc.  If not, then why even have them?  Moreover, maybe we should go to a velcro uniform...  I mean think about it, whenever you get promoted, demoted, new rating, new unit, etc.... then you could rip off and slap on the new patch.  Also, if we were ever to get ABUs and lets say that you were also active duty Air Force or reserve, then no need to buy a new uniform, if you are at CAP slap on the CAP distinctive velcro name tape, and other patches, and voila.  Also, the vice versa would be same when you go back to work.  You could keep some of these in your pocket and save time.  Perhaps we're allowed to used velcro on our own initiative?  Does anyone know otherwise?  Correct me if I'm wrong.

This is just a thought, but it could make us more uniform.  I love the corporate side of things but I also think that we just look awful in formation with a few seniors in Polos or varying uniforms of the like. *shrug*  Otherwise, don't forget that when the Air Force became it's own branch it wanted to be as distinctive as possible from the Army.  Similarly, we should resemble the Air Force, but we should also have pride in our own distinctiveness...whatever that may end up being in the long run.

Again, just a thought, but who knows when, if ever, anything as far as uniforms will change....

Except Real AFTM sew on their patches... so using the same uniform for CAP as your work uniform (at least the blouse) wouldn't work, especially with those who are Enlisted and have stripes on their sleeves. 
Not only that but as far as cadets are concerned, the pin on rank works perfectly for their frequent promotions, and Seniors don't get promoted often enough for sewing on new rank to really be an issue.  To be perfectly honest, after Captain, every promotion is probably right around a good time to get a new set anyways (YMMV).

As far as a phase in is concerned, that is pretty much a given.  It's what we've done with every uniform adjustment we've ever had.  I think the concept of "Next month BDU's will be out!" a little far fetched (ok, a lot far fetched).  I see something of a phase in of 2-5 years being what we'll have (if we have it).

Personally I'd love to see us make the switch.  It has nothing to do with a hard-kewl attitude, but just a way of saying "hey, we are on the same team still?  Right?".

Either way it's time to figure out what we're going to do. 

Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on August 08, 2011, 01:04:14 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on August 07, 2011, 12:45:43 AM
I've heard it all about ABU's. First, it was supposed to happen in 2011. Now, it's supposed to start in 2015 from what I've heard. I think the issue should be dropped until NHQ comes out with a policy on it.

Actually, the rumor mill since 06ish has been 2007, then 08, then 09, 10, 11...15...

I think you get the point.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AngelWings on August 08, 2011, 02:33:25 PM
 Why is something so simple has a uniform phase in getting so complicated. It cost money, it needs some time to allow people to get them, there has to be a policy carry over on the wear of ABU's, what is so complicated with it. I know funds are real tight, but that wouldn't be too complicated to go out and say is the official reason we are not getting ABU's right now.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on August 08, 2011, 03:07:44 PM
Quote from: Littleguy on August 08, 2011, 02:33:25 PM
Why is something so simple has a uniform phase in getting so complicated. It cost money, it needs some time to allow people to get them, there has to be a policy carry over on the wear of ABU's, what is so complicated with it. I know funds are real tight, but that wouldn't be too complicated to go out and say is the official reason we are not getting ABU's right now.

There's nothing complicated about it.

When the AF says we can go ahead anytime we want, NHQ (after CAP governing body approval) could put out an ICL with the uniform and patch locations. That's it. Nothing more to it.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: DakRadz on August 09, 2011, 01:49:07 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on August 08, 2011, 03:07:44 PM
Quote from: Littleguy on August 08, 2011, 02:33:25 PM
Why is something so simple has a uniform phase in getting so complicated. It cost money, it needs some time to allow people to get them, there has to be a policy carry over on the wear of ABU's, what is so complicated with it. I know funds are real tight, but that wouldn't be too complicated to go out and say is the official reason we are not getting ABU's right now.

There's nothing complicated about it.

When the AF says we can go ahead anytime we want, NHQ (after CAP governing body approval) could put out an ICL with the uniform and patch locations. That's it. Nothing more to it.

Aye, sahr, simple enough.

But if ya' please, don be enc'ragin' NHQ to publish more ICLs. A new manual would be mighty 'ppreciated.

Sorry, set my browser to Pirate again....
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RiverAux on November 06, 2011, 03:37:22 PM
According to a presentation given at the NEC the uniform committee is working on a revision of the corporate uniform regulations for submission for NB review (presumably soon).  They have started work on a review of AF-style uniform regulations with expectation of CAP switching from BDUs to ABUs. 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RiverAux on November 07, 2011, 03:09:12 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 06, 2011, 03:37:22 PM
According to a presentation given at the NEC the uniform committee is working on a revision of the corporate uniform regulations for submission for NB review (presumably soon).  They have started work on a review of AF-style uniform regulations with expectation of CAP switching from BDUs to ABUs.

Sort of surprised there weren't any comments on this given that it is the first specific statement we've heard that CAP is probably going to request ABUs. 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: tsrup on November 07, 2011, 04:18:45 PM
Was there any other information in that presentation or any way that we can see it?

It didn't appear to be on the November NEC agenda.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Ned on November 07, 2011, 05:00:06 PM
There is really anything to see yet.  The NUC has been tasked with a pretty big job and is moving methodicallty and carefully through it.  Initially, it developed recommendations for the corporate-style uniforms.  Now it is working on USAF-style uniforms and is reviewing and considering recommendations for - among other things - ABUs.  A little like CAPTalk, the NUC members have differing opinions on the possibility of recommending adoption of ABUs and are currently discussing and debating the issue.  It is not yet clear how the NUC will come down on the issue.  Our conference calls are filled with the same issues discussed so passionately here - things like costs to members, distinctiveness, whether or not or USAF partners are likely to appove a given recommendation, whether we should wait for the "uniform after ABU," etc.

And remember, once the NUC settles on recommendations, the recommendations will have to go to the NB for further debate and possible action.  The NB may adopt all, some, or none of the NUC's recommendations.  The NB may substitute some or all of their own recommendations.

And when and if a package is approved, it will have to go to the USAF.  Who undoubtedly will have to perform their own staff analysis which will take some time.  And they may approve all, some , or none of any package we submit.

So the process is underway.  But given all of the multiple approval processes, there is no significant chance of seening changes to USAF-style uniforms for many, many months.

If not a year or more.

Ned Lee
Member of many committees, including the NUC.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: tsrup on November 07, 2011, 07:43:20 PM
thanks Ned,

your insight is much appreciated.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RADIOMAN015 on November 08, 2011, 12:47:19 AM
Quote from: Ned on November 07, 2011, 05:00:06 PM
  But given all of the multiple approval processes, there is no significant chance of seeing changes to USAF-style uniforms for many, many months.

If not a year or more.

Ned Lee
Member of many committees, including the NUC.

Hopefully the Air Force will slow roll this for a long time.  Of course for the adult members that love to play "military dress up", this will be very frustrating :angel:.    It's too bad the leadership in CAP can't understand the importance of having only one very distinctive field uniform that everyone can wear, so that when we as an organization when performing "Missions for America" there will be absolutely no doubt to anyone observing these activities that this is the CIVIL Air Patrol :angel:   Look to the American Red Cross as an example of distinctive "no doubt" uniform wear in any media photos or videos.

Surely many members are facing some economic challenges, and hopefully other changes to CAP specific uniforms will not cost the members more money in order to participate in CAP activities :(

BTW thanks for your hard work and providing information :clap:
RM 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: AngelWings on November 08, 2011, 03:33:53 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on November 08, 2011, 12:47:19 AM
Quote from: Ned on November 07, 2011, 05:00:06 PM
  But given all of the multiple approval processes, there is no significant chance of seeing changes to USAF-style uniforms for many, many months.

If not a year or more.

Ned Lee
Member of many committees, including the NUC.

Hopefully the Air Force will slow roll this for a long time.  Of course for the adult members that love to play "military dress up", this will be very frustrating :angel:.    It's too bad the leadership in CAP can't understand the importance of having only one very distinctive field uniform that everyone can wear, so that when we as an organization when performing "Missions for America" there will be absolutely no doubt to anyone observing these activities that this is the CIVIL Air Patrol :angel:   Look to the American Red Cross as an example of distinctive "no doubt" uniform wear in any media photos or videos.

Surely many members are facing some economic challenges, and hopefully other changes to CAP specific uniforms will not cost the members more money in order to participate in CAP activities :(

BTW thanks for your hard work and providing information :clap:
RM
I guess the whole USAF Auxiliary thing means nothing to you. It is like you'd have a police academy with everyone dressed has a surgeons.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 08, 2011, 04:21:51 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on November 08, 2011, 12:47:19 AM
Quote from: Ned on November 07, 2011, 05:00:06 PM
  But given all of the multiple approval processes, there is no significant chance of seeing changes to USAF-style uniforms for many, many months.

If not a year or more.

Ned Lee
Member of many committees, including the NUC.

Hopefully the Air Force will slow roll this for a long time.  Of course for the adult members that love to play "military dress up", this will be very frustrating :angel:.    It's too bad the leadership in CAP can't understand the importance of having only one very distinctive field uniform that everyone can wear, so that when we as an organization when performing "Missions for America" there will be absolutely no doubt to anyone observing these activities that this is the CIVIL Air Patrol :angel:   Look to the American Red Cross as an example of distinctive "no doubt" uniform wear in any media photos or videos.

Surely many members are facing some economic challenges, and hopefully other changes to CAP specific uniforms will not cost the members more money in order to participate in CAP activities :(

BTW thanks for your hard work and providing information :clap:
RM

You just don't give up flogging that dead horse, do you?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: etc on November 08, 2011, 05:58:50 AM
I've read most of this thread so forgive me if this is off topic or if I'm repeating information... I'm not concerned w/ switching to ABUs. I'm not trying to act like i'm in the military and I think the blue service and name tape represents that.

I would be disappointed if they did away w/ the Service Dress blues though because that is part of the history and heritage of this organization. We are still the Aux of the USAF and I think our uniforms should reflect that connotation whether they're older or not.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 08, 2011, 06:32:02 AM
Quote from: etc on November 08, 2011, 05:58:50 AM
I've read most of this thread so forgive me if this is off topic or if I'm repeating information... I'm not concerned w/ switching to ABUs. I'm not trying to act like i'm in the military and I think the blue service and name tape represents that.

Nor are the vast majority of OTHER CAP MEMBERS who wear the BDU's trying to "act military," though Radioman would have you think otherwise.

Quote from: etc on November 08, 2011, 05:58:50 AM
I would be disappointed if they did away w/ the Service Dress blues though because that is part of the history and heritage of this organization. We are still the Aux of the USAF and I think our uniforms should reflect that connotation whether they're older or not.

For the first time in our history, I could see it happening, because there has been so much conflict between those who want all-corporate and others who want all-AF.  I don't want it to, but it's been happening little by little over the past 20-odd years.

We used to wear virtually the same uniform as the USAF...the only difference being CAP insignia.  It's only been over the past same 20-odd years that some started being overzealous about "distinctiveness."

And unfortunately, we are only the USAF Auxiliary now when on an Air Force assigned mission. >:( :(
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RiverAux on November 08, 2011, 12:58:58 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 08, 2011, 06:32:02 AM
For the first time in our history, I could see it happening, because there has been so much conflict between those who want all-corporate and others who want all-AF.  I don't want it to, but it's been happening little by little over the past 20-odd years.
Actually, the "conflict" isn't between those who want AF-style and those who want corporate military uniforms it is between those who want military style uniforms (of any kind) vs those who don't want any real uniform (golf shirt). 

Most of those wearing corporate military style uniforms would switch in a second to AF-style if regulations allowed. 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Ned on November 08, 2011, 05:09:23 PM
I get to chat with the CAP-USAF commander on a fairly regular basis.  I also spend a LOT of time talking with the members of the BoG who are appointed directly by the SECAF and who presumeably get guidance from the Secretary's office about CAP matters.

And there has never been a single hint or suggestion that the USAF is in any way unhappy with CAP members wearing the USAF service uniforms as currently authorized.  There are no plans to disturb that in the forseeable future.  It is not on the table, not in the pipeline.  Not in a box; not with a fox.

The ONLY discussions about such things take place here in the artificial reality of CAPTalk.  This is just one of those "buzz" things.  If enough people blog about it, it seems to have some basis in reality.

But it doesn't.

Ned Lee
Member BoG, NUC, and a bunch of other committees
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Eclipse on November 08, 2011, 05:12:05 PM
So by that can we also assume that there is no discussion about relaxing the grooming standards so that everyone
can wear the same uniform?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Spaceman3750 on November 08, 2011, 05:38:42 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2011, 05:12:05 PM
So by that can we also assume that there is no discussion about relaxing the grooming standards so that everyone
can wear the same uniform?

Should there be? I always thought this board made a bigger issue of that than it actually is. At my present weight I know I look like crap in BDUs/blues (therefore I don't want to wear them at my present weight) and I don't want those who are eligible to wear them to lose them in the spirit of "one uniform". I also know some people with bird nests on their faces that also look like crap in BDUs.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Eclipse on November 08, 2011, 06:09:28 PM
We can't make everyone happy, but the compromise that similar services such as the CGAux, NSCC, and USAC have reached wherein
weight is a non-issue but grooming must be followed gets us a lot closer than where we are today.

I've encountered plenty of AD and Reservists who don't look all that great in a uniform either, having a CAC in your wallet doesn't
give you force power in that regard, however at least they all look the same.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 08, 2011, 09:38:05 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2011, 06:09:28 PM
I've encountered plenty of AD and Reservists who don't look all that great in a uniform either, having a CAC in your wallet doesn't
give you force power in that regard, however at least they all look the same.

So have I...one of my units was based at an Armed Forces Reserve facility where the Navy Reserves had photos on the wall of their sailors, and more than one had a bit of a paunch, including commissioned officers and WO's.

The Air Force's standards are very artificial for CAP compared to what they hold their own AD/Guard/Reserve to.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Buzz on November 09, 2011, 06:45:57 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 08, 2011, 09:38:05 PM
The Air Force's standards are very artificial for CAP compared to what they hold their own AD/Guard/Reserve to.

The last time I looked, CAP height-weight standard for the AF uniform was above the threshold for the Fatboy Program.  At the time, I was right on the edge of the standard (buying a small single-seater was my real incentive to knock off that first 5 lbs, and I'm working on the next 5 lbs now).

Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 09, 2011, 06:56:48 PM
The AF H/W standard takes into account percentage of body fat.

CAP standard does not.

Hence, a 5'7" bodybuilder with .0000001% body fat who is over the CAP weight limit because of muscle/skeletal weight cannot wear the uniform.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Ned on November 09, 2011, 07:28:04 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 09, 2011, 06:56:48 PM
The AF H/W standard takes into account percentage of body fat.

CAP standard does not.

Hence, a 5'7" bodybuilder with .0000001% body fat who is over the CAP weight limit because of muscle/skeletal weight cannot wear the uniform.

I concur that the CAP standard (which actually is based on an Air Force standard no longer used plus 10%) does not account for body fat.

Which means that some members are not forced to stand around the meeting in their underwear getting taped by "certified taper."  Which is a good description of any Guard unit during the weigh-in. 

Off the top of your head, what percentage of CAP members are "5'7" bodybuilders with .0000001% body fat" who would benefit from taping?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: jimmydeanno on November 09, 2011, 07:38:08 PM
Quote from: Ned on November 09, 2011, 07:28:04 PM
Off the top of your head, what percentage of CAP members are "5'7" bodybuilders with .0000001% body fat" who would benefit from taping?

Probably the same as the number of cadet officers who are absolutely unable to attend an RCLS or COS and MUST take an online equivalent.  However, we seemed to put the manpower and effort into creating that program...

I'm not in favor of doing taping, just as I'm not in favor of the online COS program, but I digress.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 09, 2011, 09:38:12 PM
Quote from: Ned on November 09, 2011, 07:28:04 PM
Off the top of your head, what percentage of CAP members are "5'7" bodybuilders with .0000001% body fat" who would benefit from taping?

I personally do not know any.

I was pointing out what to me is a glaring inconsistency.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Ned on November 09, 2011, 11:07:26 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 09, 2011, 09:38:12 PM
I was pointing out what to me is a glaring inconsistency.

I suppose that all compromises are inconsistent to some extent.

Given the AF's insistence on some sort of height/weight standards, a policy choice was made to keep the system as simple and "easy to administer" as possible. 

Logically we could certainly add taping, dunk tanks, or electrostatic bodyfat instrumentation to try to reach the same end.  But that would require training, equipment, and record-keeping requirements to already over-burdened unit commanders and staff members.

(and it would also require AF approval - which would take a fair amount of work and is not certain of approval.)

So our leaders selected/compromised on a method that was easy to administer and still keep our AF colleagues happy.  But I can only agree that when compared to the methods the USAF uses for its own uniformed personnel, at least some CAP members who would qualify under a body-fat determination will wind up performing Missions for America wearing corporates.

And I, for one, genuinely appreciate their service in whatever uniform they wear.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: pilot97 on November 09, 2011, 11:25:24 PM
Quote from: NM SAR on May 25, 2011, 01:14:29 PM
seems to me that we'd be better off going entirely to Blue BDUs; ABUs are more expensive, and come with the added cost of a new pair of vomit-green boots.
blue camouflage looks terrible, no offense meant to navy people, but Civil AIR Patrol is part of the Air Force...I heard from an Air Force First Sergeant, ~5 yrs. before we'll end up in ABU's .
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: tsrup on November 10, 2011, 12:01:00 AM
Quote from: pilot97 on November 09, 2011, 11:25:24 PM
Quote from: NM SAR on May 25, 2011, 01:14:29 PM
seems to me that we'd be better off going entirely to Blue BDUs; ABUs are more expensive, and come with the added cost of a new pair of vomit-green boots.
blue camouflage looks terrible, no offense meant to navy people, but Civil AIR Patrol is part of the Air Force...I heard from an Air Force First Sergeant, ~5 yrs. before we'll end up in ABU's .
I think he meant the solid blue BDU's that are already authorized for wear by Senior Members.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 10, 2011, 12:24:01 AM
Quote from: tsrup on November 10, 2011, 12:01:00 AM
I think he meant the solid blue BDU's that are already authorized for wear by Senior Members.

I'm surprised they didn't make the BBDU's grey.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: tsrup on November 10, 2011, 12:39:55 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 10, 2011, 12:24:01 AM
Quote from: tsrup on November 10, 2011, 12:01:00 AM
I think he meant the solid blue BDU's that are already authorized for wear by Senior Members.

I'm surprised they didn't make the BBDU's grey.
::)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: PHall on November 10, 2011, 02:56:35 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 10, 2011, 12:24:01 AM
Quote from: tsrup on November 10, 2011, 12:01:00 AM
I think he meant the solid blue BDU's that are already authorized for wear by Senior Members.

I'm surprised they didn't make the BBDU's grey.

Isn't that the CAF's uniform? >:D
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Extremepredjudice on November 10, 2011, 04:24:15 AM
Quote from: Ned on November 07, 2011, 05:00:06 PM
There is really anything to see yet.  The NUC has been tasked with a pretty big job and is moving methodicallty and carefully through it.  Initially, it developed recommendations for the corporate-style uniforms.  Now it is working on USAF-style uniforms and is reviewing and considering recommendations for - among other things - ABUs.  A little like CAPTalk, the NUC members have differing opinions on the possibility of recommending adoption of ABUs and are currently discussing and debating the issue.  It is not yet clear how the NUC will come down on the issue.  Our conference calls are filled with the same issues discussed so passionately here - things like costs to members, distinctiveness, whether or not or USAF partners are likely to appove a given recommendation, whether we should wait for the "uniform after ABU," etc.

And remember, once the NUC settles on recommendations, the recommendations will have to go to the NB for further debate and possible action.  The NB may adopt all, some, or none of the NUC's recommendations.  The NB may substitute some or all of their own recommendations.

And when and if a package is approved, it will have to go to the USAF.  Who undoubtedly will have to perform their own staff analysis which will take some time.  And they may approve all, some , or none of any package we submit.

So the process is underway.  But given all of the multiple approval processes, there is no significant chance of seening changes to USAF-style uniforms for many, many months.

If not a year or more.

Ned Lee
Member of many committees, including the NUC.
Sir, maybe it would be a good idea to ask the CAP-USAF commander what he thinks...(like directly)  :angel:

It might settle this debate that keeps coming up. ::)
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Ned on November 10, 2011, 04:43:32 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on November 10, 2011, 04:24:15 AM
Sir, maybe it would be a good idea to ask the CAP-USAF commander what he thinks...(like directly)  :angel:

It might settle this debate that keeps coming up. ::)

Well, that's the problem.  Col Gloyd is an outstanding officer and a huge supporter of the cadet program and all, but his personal opinion is just not very helpful one way or another.  Because CAP uniforms are not his decision. 

When we submit requests for uniform approvals, Col Gloyd sends the package up through the USAF chain of command to the Air Staff.  Each intermediate level performs an analysis, but the ultimate call on CAP uniforms belongs the the Chief of Staff (or someone acting in his name.) 

And not Col Gloyd.

Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Extremepredjudice on November 10, 2011, 04:59:29 AM
Quote from: Ned on November 10, 2011, 04:43:32 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on November 10, 2011, 04:24:15 AM
Sir, maybe it would be a good idea to ask the CAP-USAF commander what he thinks...(like directly)  :angel:

It might settle this debate that keeps coming up. ::)

Well, that's the problem.  Col Gloyd is an outstanding officer and a huge supporter of the cadet program and all, but his personal opinion is just not very helpful one way or another.  Because CAP uniforms are not his decision. 

When we submit requests for uniform approvals, Col Gloyd sends the package up through the USAF chain of command to the Air Staff.  Each intermediate level performs an analysis, but the ultimate call on CAP uniforms belongs the the Chief of Staff (or someone acting in his name.) 

And not Col Gloyd.
No disrespect sir,

He still has influence. Unless he is entirely ineffectual (you tell me, I don't know, I'd hate to imply something that isn't true). His recommendation carries some weight. The chief of staff may have no opinion on CAP, or what uniform we use... So he could(possibly) be swayed by the commander of the program. Or the chief of staff hates Col. Gloyd, and down-checks it just cause. ::)


???
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: PHall on November 10, 2011, 05:56:09 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on November 10, 2011, 04:59:29 AM
Quote from: Ned on November 10, 2011, 04:43:32 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on November 10, 2011, 04:24:15 AM
Sir, maybe it would be a good idea to ask the CAP-USAF commander what he thinks...(like directly)  :angel:

It might settle this debate that keeps coming up. ::)

Well, that's the problem.  Col Gloyd is an outstanding officer and a huge supporter of the cadet program and all, but his personal opinion is just not very helpful one way or another.  Because CAP uniforms are not his decision. 

When we submit requests for uniform approvals, Col Gloyd sends the package up through the USAF chain of command to the Air Staff.  Each intermediate level performs an analysis, but the ultimate call on CAP uniforms belongs the the Chief of Staff (or someone acting in his name.) 

And not Col Gloyd.
No disrespect sir,

He still has influence. Unless he is entirely ineffectual (you tell me, I don't know, I'd hate to imply something that isn't true). His recommendation carries some weight. The chief of staff may have no opinion on CAP, or what uniform we use... So he could(possibly) be swayed by the commander of the program. Or the chief of staff hates Col. Gloyd, and down-checks it just cause. ::)


???

Problem is that Col Gloyd is just that, a Colonel. The folks who are making these decisions wear two and three Stars.
On their staffs, Colonels are the guys who "staff" the package for the General to either Approve or Disapprove.
The CAP-USAF/CC is not that far up the food chain.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 10, 2011, 06:03:40 PM
Quote from: Ned on November 10, 2011, 04:43:32 AM
Well, that's the problem.  Col Gloyd is an outstanding officer and a huge supporter of the cadet program and all

What about the other two legs of the CAP stool, Ned?  Is the Colonel a huge supporter of those as well?

I ask that because I've noticed that quite a few on the AF side only seem to care about the cadets...
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Ned on November 10, 2011, 06:33:22 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 10, 2011, 06:03:40 PM
Quote from: Ned on November 10, 2011, 04:43:32 AM
Well, that's the problem.  Col Gloyd is an outstanding officer and a huge supporter of the cadet program and all

What about the other two legs of the CAP stool, Ned?  Is the Colonel a huge supporter of those as well?

I ask that because I've noticed that quite a few on the AF side only seem to care about the cadets...

I must admit that sometimes my humor is a little too subtle.

Of course Col Gloyd supports all of our missions.  And like every good parent, "he loves each mission equally."   8)

And if you think the AF only cares about the cadet program, you'd think CP would do a little better in the funding department.

As you know, CP gets only a small fraction of appropriated funds channeled through the AF.

We have certainly discussed that in other threads.   ;D

Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Thrashed on November 10, 2011, 08:09:42 PM
Quote from: pilot97 on November 09, 2011, 11:25:24 PM
Quote from: NM SAR on May 25, 2011, 01:14:29 PM
seems to me that we'd be better off going entirely to Blue BDUs; ABUs are more expensive, and come with the added cost of a new pair of vomit-green boots.
blue camouflage looks terrible, no offense meant to navy people, but Civil AIR Patrol is part of the Air Force...I heard from an Air Force First Sergeant, ~5 yrs. before we'll end up in ABU's .

It's blue, not any type of camoflage, unless you are in a smurf village. What better color for "part of the Air Force" than blue?!!
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Eclipse on November 10, 2011, 08:36:16 PM
Quote from: pilot97 on November 09, 2011, 11:25:24 PMI heard from an Air Force First Sergeant, ~5 yrs. before we'll end up in ABU's.

What does a random First Shirt know about it?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: ol'fido on November 10, 2011, 10:19:48 PM
Probably as much as any of us know about it. :-\
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 11, 2011, 01:44:51 AM
Quote from: Ned on November 10, 2011, 06:33:22 PM

Of course Col Gloyd supports all of our missions.  And like every good parent, "he loves each mission equally."   8)

And if you think the AF only cares about the cadet program, you'd think CP would do a little better in the funding department.

Point taken, sir.

My question came from my own experience with some LO's/State Directors.

One in particular came round to visit my squadron some years ago.  His little "pep talk" focussed solely on cadets, particularly getting them to earn their Mitchell (E-3 and all...).  He had nothing to say to the senior side (this was a composite unit) except to "motivate your cadets to get their Mitchell."

If Colonel Gloyd doesn't have much influence on what does or doesn't get approved for CAP, who does?

Going next levels up:

BG Watkins at Holm Ctr?
LtGen Fadok at Air University?
General Rice at AETC?
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Ned on November 11, 2011, 04:35:32 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 11, 2011, 01:44:51 AM
If Colonel Gloyd doesn't have much influence on what does or doesn't get approved for CAP, who does?

Going next levels up:

BG Watkins at Holm Ctr?
LtGen Fadok at Air University?
General Rice at AETC?

Yup, it's a mystery all right.

It sure would be a lot easier if our AF partners would just appoint a single POC for CAP uniform issues.  Someone we could negotiate with and say things like "if we went with navy blue tapes on ABUs would that be more or less "distinctive" for CAP purposes?" Or "since larger members can look more professional wearing the service dress with jacket when compared to just a short sleeve service uniform, could we work a deal where our larger members could wear service dress (only) so they can display their earned awards and decorations?"

It sure would make it easier at our end.  As it is, it feels sometimes like we are negotiating against ourselves.

It is hard to understand why the AF hasn't designated someone with authority in this regard.  Since they haven't, each time we submit a request for a change, their staff process may be compeletly different each time.  With different staffers weighting different factors differently in their staff analyses each time.

If I had to guess, I suspect that they simply haven't felt the need to do so because CAP doesn.t request many changes, so they can route the request on an ad hoc basis each time.

Your guess is as good as mine.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RiverAux on November 11, 2011, 04:47:05 AM
Quote from: Ned on November 11, 2011, 04:35:32 AM
[CAP doesn.t request many changes

Are you British or is understatement just natural to you?  ;D
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 11, 2011, 08:06:57 PM
Quote from: Ned on November 11, 2011, 04:35:32 AM
Yup, it's a mystery all right.

If the CAP Jedi Master Ned  ;) :) ;D 8) says it's a mystery, then forget about trying to figure it out.

Quote from: Ned on November 11, 2011, 04:35:32 AM
It sure would be a lot easier if our AF partners would just appoint a single POC for CAP uniform issues.

Logic would dictate it would be Col. Gloyd, since he heads the AF agency that "owns" us, or someone on his staff, but since when have "logic" and the military (or CAP) been inclusive of one another? ???
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: PHall on November 12, 2011, 01:10:28 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 11, 2011, 08:06:57 PM
Logic would dictate it would be Col. Gloyd, since he heads the AF agency that "owns" us, or someone on his staff, but since when have "logic" and the military (or CAP) been inclusive of one another? ???

Then your logic fails you. Col Gloyd is not high enough on the food chain. Uniform decisions are made at the Headquarters U.S. Air Force level.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: davidsinn on November 12, 2011, 01:38:07 AM
Quote from: PHall on November 12, 2011, 01:10:28 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 11, 2011, 08:06:57 PM
Logic would dictate it would be Col. Gloyd, since he heads the AF agency that "owns" us, or someone on his staff, but since when have "logic" and the military (or CAP) been inclusive of one another? ???

Then your logic fails you. Col Gloyd is not high enough on the food chain. Uniform decisions are made at the Headquarters U.S. Air Force level.

And that's the problem. We have the manpower of a MAJCOM yet the guy that owns us can't make the decisions.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on November 12, 2011, 09:05:23 AM
Quote from: PHall on November 12, 2011, 01:10:28 AM
Then your logic fails you. Col Gloyd is not high enough on the food chain. Uniform decisions are made at the Headquarters U.S. Air Force level.

Perhaps.  However, I mention Colonel Gloyd simply as a POC, not as a decision-maker.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: afgeo4 on December 08, 2011, 04:03:18 AM
I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this before, but since USAF has phased out all BDUs, that technically legally takes the uniform out of the "Air Force style" category and should remove all height/weight and grooming restrictions. Technically it is now a corporate uniform and thus, USAF should have no authority over it. This gives CAP a chance to authorized ALL members to wear the BDU and finally achieve a uniformed field look.

Of course that's until they authorize the ABU or whatever will be the USAF uniform.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RiverAux on December 08, 2011, 04:16:39 AM
Actually, I brought that the possibility of making BDUs our all-purpose uniform once they were out of AF inventory in a thread here a couple of years ago (I may have posted the link in this thread somewhere).  However, its not as simple as just saying "Well, the AF doesn't wear it anymore, we can do what we want".  AF still has approval over our uniforms. 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: NCRblues on December 08, 2011, 04:26:46 AM
Quote from: afgeo4 on December 08, 2011, 04:03:18 AM
I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this before, but since USAF has phased out all BDUs, that technically legally takes the uniform out of the "Air Force style" category and should remove all height/weight and grooming restrictions. Technically it is now a corporate uniform and thus, USAF should have no authority over it. This gives CAP a chance to authorized ALL members to wear the BDU and finally achieve a uniformed field look.

Of course that's until they authorize the ABU or whatever will be the USAF uniform.

Don't we all wish it was that simple, but it is not. I think we all found out ANY uniform is not that simple with the CSU debacle.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: SarDragon on December 08, 2011, 06:57:04 AM
I'm betting that until the reg is changed, or USAF publishes something specific, the camo BDU will still be considered an AF-style uniform, with all the current restrictions.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: tsrup on December 08, 2011, 07:53:14 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on December 08, 2011, 06:57:04 AM
I'm betting that until the reg is changed, or USAF publishes something specific, the camo BDU will still be considered an AF-style uniform, with all the current restrictions.

If there were to be a phase out for BDU's I would see it going permanently, not being authorized as a corporate uniform. 

If it were to remain, I think it would go the same way as the old style service coat, and be authorized for cadets only, even if it's for a time period longer than for seniors.



Only because this would be the most difficult and convoluted way to make the process go.  Therefore, this is exactly how it will be done.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Angus on December 08, 2011, 03:31:43 PM
We're not going to get ABU's ever.  We're also going to phase out of the Air Force uniform and all coroprate uniforms and make a new uniform.  This time it will be one uniform for all.

Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: BillB on December 08, 2011, 05:40:55 PM
So getting rid of the USAF uniform would make many seniors happy. They could have great flying cl;ub  squadron meetings. But you could also say goodbye to the cadet program
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: RogueLeader on December 08, 2011, 05:42:01 PM
Quote from: Flint on December 08, 2011, 03:31:43 PM
We're not going to get ABU's ever.  We're also going to phase out of the Air Force uniform and all coroprate uniforms and make a new uniform.  This time it will be one uniform for all.

Cite please.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: Angus on December 08, 2011, 06:03:44 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on December 08, 2011, 05:42:01 PM
Quote from: Flint on December 08, 2011, 03:31:43 PM
We're not going to get ABU's ever.  We're also going to phase out of the Air Force uniform and all coroprate uniforms and make a new uniform.  This time it will be one uniform for all.

Cite please.

My post didn't come out right.  Look at the image I attached.  It was supposed to a joke post. 
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on December 08, 2011, 09:57:09 PM
Except that you would have to use the grey Imperial uniform to keep the grey zealots happy. >:D

(http://www.hellocosplay.com/images/costumes/star-wars-imperial-officer-grey-uniform-1.jpg)

Honestly, I don't ever see us getting ABU's, and it's way down the food chain of CAP issues I concern myself with.
Title: Re: ABU's???
Post by: titanII on December 08, 2011, 10:32:26 PM
I'd be fine with wearing Star Wars uniforms. IF and only if we got to wear the full Storm Trooper/Clone Trooper armor. Although I would settle for Boba Fett or Jango Fett armor. I will stand my ground on this issue!
;D