Hello,

I don't post on captalk, but this is a situation that I'd like to get some help on from other CAP members. So I am here to ask one question/post one topic.

My friend is a senior member and has been very active in CAP as a pilot, squadron officer, etc for the past few years. I noticed however that he has not been at the meetings for a long time, so I asked him about it. Long story but he has been 2B-eed by the squadron commander. I don't understand the details, but it seems like the only reason for the action is that the CC or the deputy CC doesn't like him personally.

My question here is, what types of things would normally get one terminated for cause? I am pretty sure my friend has not committed any crimes, or done anything illegal, unethical or improper. There is an issue about his flying that he was put on a mandatory retraining schedule after there was some disagreement about runway usage at a glider event, and he seems to have been setup for a bogus form five checkride that was rigged for him to fail. I am myself very sad to see this all happening because I am sure my friend is a good guy and in fact is an asset to CAP.

So my question is, what sorts of things would be normally be valid reasons for a 2B action? (I already know what the reg says, I'd like some concrete examples from past actions)

Thanks for your help

One more thing, this is still waiting for appeal. If he loses the appeal (and it seems like CAP can boot anybody for anything according to the regs) I think I will proobably quit too - I am just so disappointed at people who I used to trust and respect backstabbing our mutual friend.

Thanks

The 2B process is in the regs for all to read.

If your friend was put on a corrective action plan due to a flying issue, then potentially he didn't meet the standards (there is interpretation what the standards are and who gets to set them, sure). 

Keep in mind: its always "this guy was out to get me" or "the checkride was rigged" or whatever.

With the scant information you've provided, nobody can say.  And this is probably not the forum to air anybody's dirty laundry.

Bottom line: if he has grounds for an appeal, then he should do so. If he has proof and documentation of his ability, performance, or whatever, he should supply that.

At the end of the day, however, it gets down to who can present the more logical case to the appeal board. If the wing says "2Lt Z did this, was verbally warned, did this, received a written reprimand and then did another thing, and was put on a retraining plan with the understanding that failure to meet standards would result in termination" and there is documentation, signatures, "I's" dotted and "T's" crossed, then his documentation better be something better than "I think the squadron commander doesn't like me.."

Because an appeal hearing will go like this.

"According to the Wing, you were warned on 18 October for not filing a flight plan on 1 October. Present in the room was the Wing DO, the Wing Chief of Staff and the State Director.  Do you remember this verbal warning?"

"Yes."

"And on 1 November, while flying the squadron plane N12345, did you fail to file a flight plan on that day??"

"Yes, I didn't file a flight plan..."

"I see.  And on 15 November, you were counseled in writing for not filing a flight plan on 1 November. Is this your signature on the bottom of the counseling form?"

"Yeah, but the squadron commander forced me to sign that."

"Does it say that you have 60 days to conduct an online AOPA flight plan course followed by a Form 5 recheck?"

"yeah, but the check pilot gave me a bogus form 5.."

"In what way?"

"Well, he had it out for me.."

"OK, the CAPF 5 that was filed as a result of that check ride indicates that you were substandard in the following areas. Preflight, flight plan, take off, runway selection and landing. According to this, you picked the wrong runway for the prevailing winds at the Podunk Airpatch.  Did you, in fact, land on Rwy 15 when you should have landed on Rwy 9?"

"Well, yeah, but the check pilot told me to do that..."

And so on and so forth.

Unless your friend can say "No, on 18 October it was just the Wing DO in the room.. Here is a copy of the wing's sign-in roster for the staff meeting that night.  According to this, the SD & the Chief of Staff were not at that meeting. Plus, Captains A and B, and Major C have stated that the Chief of Staff and SD were not present at HQ that day." and "You can clearly see from the published weather history for Podunk Airpatch that the wind was 330 at 10 the whole day. with no variations."  then it becomes "He said/She said" and whoever has better documentation is likely to sway an appeal.

But like I said, considering that none of the facts are in evidence here except for what you posted, it is hard to make *any* kind of determination based on one side of the story.

Thanks for the response. I am not here to air details of the individual or the case. I am just trying to get a feel for what normally is a good reason for getting rid of someone who otherwise seems to be a good guy.

It sounds like you have been through this process in some manner. Would my friend be able to bring along another CAP member (not a lawyer) to act as counsel?

In the meantime, this member has been getting ratings past private pilot, WINGS, etc... it seems to be like they are cataloging every little thing he has doen wrong in the past three years. BTW, is there a "statute of limitations" for this lists of things he may have done wrong? I mean, membership is a one year at a time thing, can they bring up something he did wrong from two or three years back?

Quote from: arthurfreidheim on January 30, 2012, 01:34:22 AM
Thanks for the response. I am not here to air details of the individual or the case. I am just trying to get a feel for what normally is a good reason for getting rid of someone who otherwise seems to be a good guy.

It sounds like you have been through this process in some manner. Would my friend be able to bring along another CAP member (not a lawyer) to act as counsel?

In the meantime, this member has been getting ratings past private pilot, WINGS, etc... it seems to be like they are cataloging every little thing he has doen wrong in the past three years. BTW, is there a "statute of limitations" for this lists of things he may have done wrong? I mean, membership is a one year at a time thing, can they bring up something he did wrong from two or three years back?

When it comes to flying, yes they look very closely at your past record. They are entrusting you with a quarter million dollar aircraft and people's lives.

Sorry, the "every little thing" they are looking at has nothing to do with his flying. More like failing to arrange a meeting on time with someone for some administrative function assigned to him. That sort of thing. With respect to flying other CAP instructors had no problems with him, just the one that did the checkride.

Quote from: arthurfreidheim on January 30, 2012, 01:34:22 AM
Thanks for the response. I am not here to air details of the individual or the case. I am just trying to get a feel for what normally is a good reason for getting rid of someone who otherwise seems to be a good guy.

It sounds like you have been through this process in some manner. Would my friend be able to bring along another CAP member (not a lawyer) to act as counsel?

In the meantime, this member has been getting ratings past private pilot, WINGS, etc... it seems to be like they are cataloging every little thing he has doen wrong in the past three years. BTW, is there a "statute of limitations" for this lists of things he may have done wrong? I mean, membership is a one year at a time thing, can they bring up something he did wrong from two or three years back?

OK, whether or not yoru friend is a "good guy" is pretty much immaterial.  Keep in mind: a guy's ability to be a "good guy" and his ability to safely keep the greasy side of the plane down and the shiny side up are likely two entirely different things, and one is in no way related to the other.

Yes, I have been thru a few of these, both on the "being 2B'd" side and the "2B'ing someone" side.  And overall, neither is pleasant, really.  And as our good friend Radioman likes to (frequently) point out, this isn't the military, so punitive punishment (including termination actions) are indicative of a failed leadership situation. (BTW, I vehemently disagree with that stance. Sometimes, you just have to ask someone to leave. Nicely or otherwise. Leadership notwithstanding)

That being said, a couple things ANYBODY involved in a termination action needs to be aware of and should do:

1) Familiarise yourself with the regulations.  The regulations pertaining to membership (39-2, as I recall), the Temination regulation (39-3?) and those pertaining to the matter causing the termination action.  If you're being 2B'd for a CPP violation, then you'd better be pretty conversant with 52-10. Chapter and verse.

2) Understand the appeal process and all the timelines thereunto pertaining. If the window to file the appeal is 30 days, your appeal better be on the appeal authority's desk well in advance of that window. Not like "noon the day of".  Understand who the appeal authority is, and how you (might) appeal an undesirable decision there, such as the MARB, if the situation warrants.

(Note: I can't tell you how many times the MARB has ruled "The termination action was completed in a timely fashion, but the member did not follow the regulations" or "This is not a matter that is up for appeal to the MARB per the regulations.  So *know* whether or not an appeal stops at the next echelon or can grow legs to the MARB.   IIRC, most appeals cannot, therefore it is important to know, else you're wasting EVERYBODY'S time.)

3) Have as much documentation as possible.  Write out your side of the situation in a clean, clear, neutral stance narrative:  "On 23 April, Captain Smith, while in the presence of C/A1C Snuffy and C/SSgt Bufftuck, told me to 'throw that box of BDU rags in the dumpster.'  I complied with Capt Smith's request. It was only afterward that I learned that the box was not actually BDU rags, but complete sets of BDUs.  I told Capt Smith I would like to go thru the box, and C/A1C Snuffy and C/SSgt Bufftuck volunteered to help, but Captain Smith was insistent that we throw this box into the dumpster immediately.  It was only after Major Disaster discovered the missing BDU box that Captain Smith suggested that I threw out the wrong box, or that I deliberately destroyed CAP property."

4) While it is helpful to have a friendly CAP member act as a neutral party, if they're not a legal officer, they might be seen as "sticking their nose in where it does not belong" and cause problems for themselves. Tread lightly here.

5) While I might not attend an appeal hearing _with_ an attorney, its probably not a bad idea to talk to one.

6) Under no circumstances should the potential terminee do things like "Well, I got all the seniors to quit, so there!" or "We've emailed all the parents to let them know what is *really* going on at the Podunk Cadet Squadron. You'll be sorry now!!"  That *always* ends badly. *always*

Bottom line: if you were doing something against the regs, were told to quit it, and did not, you're probably going to get terminated and it will be about as open and shut as it could be. Really.

Quote from: NIN on January 30, 2012, 02:15:23 AM
. . .

Bottom line: if you were doing something against the regs, were told to quit it, and did not, you're probably going to get terminated and it will be about as open and shut as it could be. Really.

Thanks, but I really can't imagine what this guy did that would rise to that level. We will see.

Quote from: NIN on January 30, 2012, 02:15:23 AM
. . .
6) Under no circumstances should the potential terminee do things like "Well, I got all the seniors to quit, so there!" or "We've emailed all the parents to let them know what is *really* going on at the Podunk Cadet Squadron. You'll be sorry now!!"  That *always* ends badly. *always*

As an aside, if one were already out of CAP, how would this action end badly? Not that this would happen in this case, I am just wondering what you mean?



Not a fun time here, quite sad in fact. Thanks.

Quote from: arthurfreidheim on January 30, 2012, 02:12:12 AM
Sorry, the "every little thing" they are looking at has nothing to do with his flying. More like failing to arrange a meeting on time with someone for some administrative function assigned to him. That sort of thing. With respect to flying other CAP instructors had no problems with him, just the one that did the checkride.

In circumstances like this, it is helpful to point out where the terminee did the "wrong thing" with regard to, say, arranging a meeting.

So if 2Lt Z is the Squadron Testing Officer and he was supposed to inventory tests every 30 days, and did not (hahaha, how anachronistic.. "testing officer" ... *giggity*), then certainly there is a regulation behind that and will be pretty open and shut.  The testing regulations are now in play.  "Did you not inventory?" "No, I did not."  *bam* straightforward. 

(or maybe "After noting that 2Lt Z had not inventoried the testing materials in over 6 months, I instructed 2Lt Z to inventory the testing materials that night. He did not inventory the testing materials on 14 April, and infact, on that same night, told me he thought the test reg was "chicken****" and that perhaps I was suffering from a degree of anal retentiveness that was hereditary."  Gross insubordination AND failure to follow appropriately promulgated Civil Air Patrol regulations.  Time to say buh-bye to your fancy blue uniform...)

If 2Lt Z was supposed to call the local parade coordinator on 2 May and didn't call until 3 May, well, I can't think of a reg that got broken there.   Termination for cause is mighty thin there.  I would be surprised if the unit could point out a legitimate termination reason that would stick.

Quote from: arthurfreidheim on January 30, 2012, 01:01:49 AMLong story but he has been 2B-eed by the squadron commander. I don't understand the details, but ...

It was really, really, really hard to get a 2B. So if he is your friend just ask him, straight up, what happened?

Quote from: arthurfreidheim on January 30, 2012, 01:05:53 AM
One more thing, this is still waiting for appeal. If he loses the appeal (and it seems like CAP can boot anybody for anything according to the regs) I think I will proobably quit too - I am just so disappointed at people who I used to trust and respect backstabbing our mutual friend.

Thanks

I am very sad to hear that.

First off....there is an appeal process....and in recent years....AFIK it is very good and very above board.....if you have the fortitude to stick it out.

Second off....I would like to point out to you your first statement  "I don't understand the details."   I will not sugar coat anything....CAP is full of backstabbing, petting, lowlifes....who get into power and use it to screw other members.  And that is why we have the appeal system.  But.....I will also point out....that often where there is smoke there is fire.  As a commander....I don't have time to just 2b people for no reason.  So....there may be a lot of history that you are not aware of.....and should not be aware of....it is none of your buisness unless the member wants to tell you.

If you want to quit......I would first bring it up to your commander and maybe....he may explain the situation from his point of view....or not.  I would just suggest to you not to make any rash decisions based on one person's side of the story.

Have a good day.

Quote from: Private Investigator on January 30, 2012, 02:43:06 AM

Quote from: arthurfreidheim on January 30, 2012, 01:01:49 AMLong story but he has been 2B-eed by the squadron commander. I don't understand the details, but ...

It was really, really, really hard to get a 2B. So if he is your friend just ask him, straight up, what happened?

I did ask him straight up. And got an hour on the phone. He is not really sure why this is happening so neither am I.

Quote from: arthurfreidheim on January 30, 2012, 03:49:03 AM

Quote from: Private Investigator on January 30, 2012, 02:43:06 AM

Quote from: arthurfreidheim on January 30, 2012, 01:01:49 AMLong story but he has been 2B-eed by the squadron commander. I don't understand the details, but ...

It was really, really, really hard to get a 2B. So if he is your friend just ask him, straight up, what happened?

I did ask him straight up. And got an hour on the phone. He is not really sure why this is happening so neither am I.

I don't remember who said this, but "There are always at least 5 different sides to every story."

Quote from: lordmonar on January 30, 2012, 03:34:05 AM

Quote from: arthurfreidheim on January 30, 2012, 01:05:53 AM
One more thing, this is still waiting for appeal. If he loses the appeal (and it seems like CAP can boot anybody for anything according to the regs) I think I will proobably quit too - I am just so disappointed at people who I used to trust and respect backstabbing our mutual friend.

Thanks

I am very sad to hear that.

First off....there is an appeal process....and in recent years....AFIK it is very good and very above board.....if you have the fortitude to stick it out.

Second off....I would like to point out to you your first statement  "I don't understand the details."   I will not sugar coat anything....CAP is full of backstabbing, petting, lowlifes....who get into power and use it to screw other members.  And that is why we have the appeal system.  But.....I will also point out....that often where there is smoke there is fire.  As a commander....I don't have time to just 2b people for no reason.  So....there may be a lot of history that you are not aware of.....and should not be aware of....it is none of your buisness unless the member wants to tell you.

If you want to quit......I would first bring it up to your commander and maybe....he may explain the situation from his point of view....or not.  I would just suggest to you not to make any rash decisions based on one person's side of the story.

Have a good day.

Yes, I am well aware of the politics that go on in CAP. Our wing has always seemed to be a very friendly supportive bunch and one that seemed above that sort of thing and that is why I am so discouraged. And our squadron also is a very close bunch trying to do the right thing with not much resources. So I am very frustrated and disappointed to find that there is some serious back stabbing going on here and that it is so extremely pointless - I would have expected the CC to be much much more tolerant and helpful if he did in fact see a problem. The member in question has about a full page of ES qualifications along with wing level assignments after only about five years in CAP. for the leadership to go to the lengths it apparently has gone to attack this guy really really bothers me. It is not anything like what I would have expected of him. This is completely out of the blue for me. It really seems to violate a lot of trust and a lot of the spirit of our ethics.

Another issue that really bugs me is that I strongly suspect that I am the only one who knows that my friend is being expelled. No mention of this has occurred at the meetings or anything - he just hasn't been seen anywhere, and in a few more days he will probably be permanently gone - and still no one will know other than the CC and the deputy CC. And of course, none of us can talk about it because CAP doesn't talk about personnel matters.

Quote from: arthurfreidheim on January 30, 2012, 03:58:08 AMAnother issue that really bugs me is that I strongly suspect that I am the only one who knows that my friend is being expelled. No mention of this has occurred at the meetings or anything - he just hasn't been seen anywhere, and in a few more days he will probably be permanently gone - and still no one will know other than the CC and the deputy CC. And of course, none of us can talk about it because CAP doesn't talk about personnel matters.

Actually, that is the way it's supposed to work. ..and if it's working right, he does know more than he's telling you. If you login to eServices, is he still on your unit list? ... and you say you don't know, but you're pretty sure about "a few more days". There really is more to this.
OTOH, what *usually* happens is everyone knows about it, against the intent of the system. Because the politics are spreading, and the person at the center of it finds out more from the grapevine than the proper channels. That's when the stabbers are really at it.

Quote from: a2capt on January 30, 2012, 05:19:16 AM

Quote from: arthurfreidheim on January 30, 2012, 03:58:08 AMAnother issue that really bugs me is that I strongly suspect that I am the only one who knows that my friend is being expelled. No mention of this has occurred at the meetings or anything - he just hasn't been seen anywhere, and in a few more days he will probably be permanently gone - and still no one will know other than the CC and the deputy CC. And of course, none of us can talk about it because CAP doesn't talk about personnel matters.

Actually, that is the way it's supposed to work. ..and if it's working right, he does know more than he's telling you. If you login to eServices, is he still on your unit list? ... and you say you don't know, but you're pretty sure about "a few more days". There really is more to this.
OTOH, what *usually* happens is everyone knows about it, against the intent of the system. Because the politics are spreading, and the person at the center of it finds out more from the grapevine than the proper channels. That's when the stabbers are really at it.

Yes, he is still on the unit list. I can browse his rather lengthy list of achievements as well.

I am sorry, but I don't get that at all. From the perspective of the average Joe in the squadron, "Bob" has been there friend and squadron member in CAP for years, but noow that you mention it, they haven't seen him at the meetings for a long time. They thought "Bob" was just busy with his real life. He wasn't at the Christmas party either. Nothing is ever said about "Bob". Finally, they happen to notice that the squadron list doesn't have him on it anymore and they ask squadron CC about it and get a vague answer like, "Oh he left CAP and I can't say anything more about it."  So from the squadron member's viewpoint, a good friend just got booted out of CAP and no one knew anything about it (really in this case no one does know about it).

I just think that this is not the military, this is a group of civilian people who join together to do emergency service volunteer stuff. They have been together for years and they are operating under the assumption that everyone is a friend you can count on no matter what. A sudden unexplained expulsion for no clear reason sort of really ruins that camaraderie.

The Unit Commander doesn't have to explain why the 2b action is being processed due to confidentialty concerns. Your friend can and obviously hasn't, because he does get copies of all the paperwork so that if he appeals he has all the same information.  Check out the MARB site on E-services to see examples of cases that have been appealed and the results. 

I might also point you to eServices.  Check out the tab that says Membership Action Review Board.  Here you can see a lot of "good" people and what happened to them and why in a general sense.  Might give you some pointers if you are looking for advice.

Another thing to keep in mind, sort of along the lines of what lordmonar said:  The termination process has a decent amount of checks and balances. 

While it certainly is possible for a number of officers to conspire against another (the squadron commander, the Group and/or Wing Commander, the appeal board president, etc), it tends to be not very likely, especially when the appeal winds up at Wing (due to the wider geographic area. Its easier to get an appeal board of "disinterested officers" who have little to no knowledge of the circumstances and the players in advance and can be a bit more objective.   A group-level appeal will often have people who are fairly "local" to the circumstances). That sort of thing tends to leave a fairly obvious trail.

That being said, and like I've said all along: if your friend did something that was clearly against regulations, it will be a fairly open and shut case.  If your friend was doing something he should not have been doing (even if there is not a clear regulation for that exact thing he was doing) and was told to cease and desist by his commander and either did not or outright refused to comply, then he's got another problem.  Termination proceedings can run a gamut of "clear-cut black&white violations of the regulations" to "Well, he'd been doing X, which while not prohibited, is certainly prejudicial to good order and discipline. He was told to knock off X, which he did not. He was warned, counseled, suspended and, now, terminated."

As most of us have said, there is really not enough data here to tell you "You should quit! Your buddy is getting railroaded!" or "Your buddy is not telling everything. Hold your horses."  I suspect it lies somewhere in-between.

Again, I was not looking to air the specifics of the case here. I was just trying to get a feel for what actually normally gets one fired from CAP.