CAP Talk

Operations => Emergency Services & Operations => Topic started by: smithwr2 on December 18, 2013, 06:33:20 PM

Title: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: smithwr2 on December 18, 2013, 06:33:20 PM
I was curious as to the status of ARCHER - Airborne Real-time Cueing Hyperspectral Enhanced.
The NHQ website still describes training for a special few on a highly-competitive basis.  So I submitted a question to Knowledgebase about this training:

******************
Hi Knowledgebase, I am a MP and  I am interested in attending the 5-day ARCHER training at NHQ.  I am familiar with the application process, screening process, exam, nomination, etc.  listed elsewhere on Knowledgebase.

Question:  when is the next scheduled formal ARCHER training at NHQ?  I request this information to plan the application timing and also my personal schedule, if selected.
********************

In case the most recent well-aged posts on CAPTALK for ARCHER dating back to mid-2000s was not a clue, here is the response from a knowledgeable person at NHQ regarding the status of ARCHER (2013):


****************
Response Via Email(KB Manager) - 12/11/2013 07:03 AM ARCHER training will no longer be conducted on a national scale.  The systems are reaching their useful life, many have already had to be retired, and we will likely only be supporting training in the local area of the few remaining systems.
*******************

I hope to find some local training opportunities, even though ARCHER is long in the tooth.  If anyone knows of a plane and ARCHER system in the Pacific NW, and wants to do some training on ARCHER, let me know and lets go flying.


Randy Smith CAP Capt
PCR-WA-015
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: SJFedor on December 18, 2013, 09:39:07 PM
Quote from: smithwr2 on December 18, 2013, 06:33:20 PM
I was curious as to the status of ARCHER - Airborne Real-time Cueing Hyperspectral Enhanced.
The NHQ website still describes training for a special few on a highly-competitive basis.  So I submitted a question to Knowledgebase about this training:

******************
Hi Knowledgebase, I am a MP and  I am interested in attending the 5-day ARCHER training at NHQ.  I am familiar with the application process, screening process, exam, nomination, etc.  listed elsewhere on Knowledgebase.

Question:  when is the next scheduled formal ARCHER training at NHQ?  I request this information to plan the application timing and also my personal schedule, if selected.
********************

In case the most recent well-aged posts on CAPTALK for ARCHER dating back to mid-2000s was not a clue, here is the response from a knowledgeable person at NHQ regarding the status of ARCHER (2013):


****************
Response Via Email(KB Manager) - 12/11/2013 07:03 AM ARCHER training will no longer be conducted on a national scale.  The systems are reaching their useful life, many have already had to be retired, and we will likely only be supporting training in the local area of the few remaining systems.
*******************

I hope to find some local training opportunities, even though ARCHER is long in the tooth.  If anyone knows of a plane and ARCHER system in the Pacific NW, and wants to do some training on ARCHER, let me know and lets go flying.


Randy Smith CAP Capt
PCR-WA-015

Unfortunately, it's pretty much dead technology. It's also a lot more complicated than "flip the switch, lets go fly and i'll figure it out". There's a lot of nuiances to flying an ARCHER profile, and it's really not something you can just learn OTJ. You have to spend some pretty serious classroom time to understand how the system and it's components work. That's why there was only the national program to qualify people on how to fly it; it's actually THAT intensive. The last few years that NHQ did the operator training, a lot of it was done at NESA in Indiana.
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: a2capt on December 18, 2013, 09:46:58 PM
It was also a big time GoB network magnet, with the initial selection test being a one time ever, pass or fail being a perfect gateway to it. :(
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: arajca on December 18, 2013, 09:55:22 PM
IIRC, there are only 4 functioning (mostly) ARCHER units left. The units were all prototypes, so there are no replacements available and the manufacturer has refused to allow anyone else to make the custom parts for it.

As they fail, if parts can ge cannabilized from the other failed ARCHER units, they will do that, otherwise the units wind up in the cannabil feeding trough and the aircraft get repurposed.
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: Eclipse on December 18, 2013, 10:04:22 PM
Frankly, it was DOA.
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: NIN on December 18, 2013, 10:20:35 PM
Quote from: arajca on December 18, 2013, 09:55:22 PM
the aircraft get repurposed.

You know, that sliding door on the GA-8 has like an 80kt limitation.
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: PHall on December 18, 2013, 11:18:25 PM
Quote from: NIN on December 18, 2013, 10:20:35 PM
Quote from: arajca on December 18, 2013, 09:55:22 PM
the aircraft get repurposed.

You know, that sliding door on the GA-8 has like an 80kt limitation.

A three bladed prop wouldn't hurt either. It has the climb performance of a brick.
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: NIN on December 19, 2013, 01:22:26 AM
Quote from: PHall on December 18, 2013, 11:18:25 PM
Quote from: NIN
You know, that sliding door on the GA-8 has like an 80kt limitation.

A three bladed prop wouldn't hurt either. It has the climb performance of a brick.

I don't need that much climb performance...
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: Eclipse on December 19, 2013, 01:48:54 AM
You might with the full ~4000 lbs on board!
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: lordmonar on December 19, 2013, 01:56:39 AM
Quote from: NIN on December 18, 2013, 10:20:35 PM
Quote from: arajca on December 18, 2013, 09:55:22 PM
the aircraft get repurposed.

You know, that sliding door on the GA-8 has like an 80kt limitation.
Do you mean with it open?
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: PHall on December 19, 2013, 01:58:41 AM
Quote from: NIN on December 19, 2013, 01:22:26 AM
Quote from: PHall on December 18, 2013, 11:18:25 PM
Quote from: NIN
You know, that sliding door on the GA-8 has like an 80kt limitation.

A three bladed prop wouldn't hurt either. It has the climb performance of a brick.

I don't need that much climb performance...

So you like long rides up to jump altitude? >:D
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: RogueLeader on December 19, 2013, 02:49:49 AM
Quote from: PHall on December 19, 2013, 01:58:41 AM
Quote from: NIN on December 19, 2013, 01:22:26 AM
Quote from: PHall on December 18, 2013, 11:18:25 PM
Quote from: NIN
You know, that sliding door on the GA-8 has like an 80kt limitation.

A three bladed prop wouldn't hurt either. It has the climb performance of a brick.

I don't need that much climb performance...

So you like long rides up to jump altitude? >:D

How long does it take to get to 800-1200 feet AGL?
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: scooter on December 19, 2013, 02:53:00 AM
I have a little over 100hr in the G8 and too many Archer missions. Its the most uncomfortable airplane I have ever flown but a nice stable platform. Seems to me it would be a good airplane to put another, simpler, camera system in that has some gimbals so it could take those overhead pictures that FEMA likes so much. Oh yea, about 50 more horsepower would help too!
Archer's days are definitely numbered. No parts.
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: PHall on December 19, 2013, 05:04:57 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on December 19, 2013, 02:49:49 AM
Quote from: PHall on December 19, 2013, 01:58:41 AM
Quote from: NIN on December 19, 2013, 01:22:26 AM
Quote from: PHall on December 18, 2013, 11:18:25 PM
Quote from: NIN
You know, that sliding door on the GA-8 has like an 80kt limitation.

A three bladed prop wouldn't hurt either. It has the climb performance of a brick.

I don't need that much climb performance...

So you like long rides up to jump altitude? >:D

How long does it take to get to 800-1200 feet AGL?

Jump altitude is usually a bit higher, say 12,500 agl. We're not talking military static line jumps here.
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: NIN on December 19, 2013, 11:59:03 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 19, 2013, 01:56:39 AM
Quote from: NIN on December 18, 2013, 10:20:35 PM
You know, that sliding door on the GA-8 has like an 80kt limitation.
Do you mean with it open?

Yup.

I was wrong: 100 kts

Quote from: PHall on December 19, 2013, 05:04:57 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on December 19, 2013, 02:49:49 AM
Quote from: PHall on December 19, 2013, 01:58:41 AM
So you like long rides up to jump altitude? >:D
How long does it take to get to 800-1200 feet AGL?
Jump altitude is usually a bit higher, say 12,500 agl. We're not talking military static line jumps here.

Listed climb performance is 788ft/min (as Phil said, not exactly a barn-burner there!), but I believe that is at Max Gross/MTOW.  A pilot and 1-2 pax, 1/2 tanks, you're looking at 1,200 fpm.

Who needs 12,500? I was suggesting it as a repurposed platform for the "Wings of Ultramarine" :)  4,000 AGL is about all anybody really needs.  LOL.
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: lordmonar on December 19, 2013, 01:49:25 PM
Wing's of Ultramarine!  I'm there!
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: Flying Pig on December 19, 2013, 01:58:20 PM
Seeing a CAP plane with ARCHER is like seeing someone in 2013 walking around with a cell phone with an extendable antenna and a battery bag.  Just get that dead weight off the planes and be done.   One time Pass/Fail opportunity?  Give me a break.
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: Eclipse on December 19, 2013, 03:20:14 PM
Don't forget the "chase vehicle" since the "ground station" was too heavy to be transported in the aircraft.
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: bosshawk on December 19, 2013, 06:02:11 PM
Good ridance!!!!!  21 million tax-payers dollars down the drain.
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: Eclipse on December 19, 2013, 06:07:37 PM
Well, it's not 100% wasted, unless the ARCHER gear itself cost that much alone, in which case I'll need
to go lay down for a while.

We still have the planes, and about 10 people who can fly them, so there's that.

Oh, and a lot of obsolete laptops!  Don't forget those!
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: scooter on December 21, 2013, 06:06:27 PM
Does anyone know where the working Archer systems are?
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: Smithsonia on December 21, 2013, 06:13:18 PM
We have one in Denver. It is flown mostly by the Black Sheep Squadron. I am in the Black Sheep.

It is kept at Buckley Air Force Base (BKF) I've been trying to get the Archer System pulled
and make photo windows in the back for Airborne photo missions. The one window in the back is placed in an inconvenient place which causes fatigue. Instead
I think the GA8 would make a decent platform for shooting digital photos out of both sides so we do one pass AP missions and are home for downloading quicker.

So far nobody else likes the idea much. We still have Archer crews who use it enough to keep it up and running.
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: a2capt on December 21, 2013, 06:44:31 PM
As the qualified people run out, the draw will be less and less.

When you had those who had the qualifications sitting on it, "keeping it for themselves", by never getting around to training others, and when they had feet to the fire on offering classes, gave ambiguous information so that one time pass/fail trial had great odds of failing..

That mentality migrated to the Green Flag people, it seemed.. as they were for a while, trashing applications, instead of forwarding them, getting creeped out if others talked about it, etc. "Oh, they're going to find out, apply, get accepted, and we won't get all the missions for ourselves!!!"

That kind of thing just burned me out on CAP flying for ES, it did..
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: RiverAux on December 21, 2013, 06:52:17 PM
Thought I saw something in some official place about ARCHER going away...
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: Eclipse on December 21, 2013, 09:23:42 PM
My favorite was the crew at a major national airshow telling people you weren't allowed to fly the GA-8 unless you
were Archer qual'ed.
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: lordmonar on December 21, 2013, 09:36:57 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 21, 2013, 09:23:42 PM
My favorite was the crew at a major national airshow telling people you weren't allowed to fly the GA-8 unless you
were Archer qual'ed.
At one time that was true.....but should not have been.
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: Eclipse on December 21, 2013, 09:42:25 PM
Rediculous at all, but confirmed at the time not the case.

These gents clearly wanted to keep a small circle flying "their" plane.
Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: lordmonar on December 21, 2013, 10:52:07 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 21, 2013, 09:42:25 PM
Rediculous at all, but confirmed at the time not the case.

These gents clearly wanted to keep a small circle flying "their" plane.
Granted that may have been the case.....they may have also just been repeating the misinformation they were told.....because we all know that everyone in CAP is always as good as you in passing on "true" information.

Don't always ascribe to evil what can be pinned on simple ignorance/incompetence.



Title: Re: The Passing of ARCHER
Post by: Eclipse on December 22, 2013, 12:43:56 AM
I reject your glass, and substitute mine, which isn't "half empty", "its twice as big as it needs to be"...