What is real purpose of CAP

[flyguy06]

After my last topic about the cadet flight training and seeing the respnces. I have a question:

Are you folks in CAP only for SAR and ES and CD stuff? Is CAP becomming an exclusive ES force? Let me know so I wont renew my membership next year.

I joined CAP because I want to make a difference in youg peoples lives. I know what CAP did for me when I was a cadte and I want to pass it along to other young people. That is my primary purpose for being in this organization. If the culture is changin please let me know

[Eclipse]

Not in my parts - CP is strong an vibrant with great cadets and too much to do.

[sarflyer]

Now flyguy, easy there!  

You gotta know that some members want only ES and some only want the wild blue yonder.  CAP is what you make it.  I have read a few of your posts.   You have a good attitude, don't let those guys goat ya into an argument.  

Any squadron that concentrates on only one of the three missions has issues to be resolved.  CAP is about all three.  

[Flying Pig]

There are some who are only interested in SAR,CD and ES.  There are some who have no interest in that and are only interested in Cadet Programs.  There are some who enjoy it all.  I for one, enjoy it all, but am more involved in SAR and CD right now.  Having been a Deputy Commander for Cadets, and now a Sq. Commander, Ive had to learn people are here for many reasons.

As far as equipment issues, when we are talking about expensive aircraft, No, I dont agree that we should purchase them with cadet flight training in mind because that is not the main reson we have them.  We have them for SAR/ES but also use them for cadets as well.

But to answer your question, the cadet program is alive and well here in CAWG, and in my Sq.

[kpetersen]

I generally don't post in the ES/flying sub-forums because both come second to cadet programs for me personally.  I will work in ES/AE when necessary, but I do not consider myself anywhere near the expert.

That might be the issue you're seeing.  To actually become an expert, generally a person has to specialize in the area.  This is a vast assumption on my part, but the people that tend to post are either specialized in their area, consider themselves experts after minimal knowledge and just like arguing, or they're somewhere in the middle.  I believe if you were able to poll all the lurkers, you would find more that tend to generally blend into all of the missions of CAP.

[flyguy06]

Thanks for the replies guys. My mind is at ease again. whew. I was worried for a minute there.

[mikeylikey]

^ Don't worry!  As long as you have a familiar understanding of ES and AE, you are more than welcome to concentrate most of your efforts on CP.  Don't forget, AE is part of the Cadet Program, and even Cadet Program guys and girls should be able to relate to cadets that want ES. 

Even though the Cadet Program is not about ES, ES is still one of the three missions, that all members (both Cadet and Senior) should be familiar with. 

I focus on Cadet Programs heavily myself, but I can still get a ground team together or sit MO/MS if needs dictated. 

I do not fly for CAP though.  I did receive most of my flight time through CAP, and it cost me much less becoming a pilot with help from CAP scholarships and whatnot, and I appreciate that, but never had a real interest to fly for the organization.  I guess I am just weird that way.  Perhaps one day I will fly for CAP, but not today.   

[flyguy06]

^ Don't worry!  As long as you have a familiar understanding of ES and AE, you are more than welcome to concentrate most of your efforts on CP.  Don't forget, AE is part of the Cadet Program, and even Cadet Program guys and girls should be able to relate to cadets that want ES. 

Even though the Cadet Program is not about ES, ES is still one of the three missions, that all members (both Cadet and Senior) should be familiar with. 

I focus on Cadet Programs heavily myself, but I can still get a ground team together or sit MO/MS if needs dictated. 

I do not fly for CAP though.  I did receive most of my flight time through CAP, and it cost me much less becoming a pilot with help from CAP scholarships and whatnot, and I appreciate that, but never had a real interest to fly for the organization.  I guess I am just weird that way.  Perhaps one day I will fly for CAP, but not today.   

That is interesting. Why dont you fly for CAP if you are a pilot?

[mikeylikey]

The area of my Wing I am from is a huge "old boys club".  I find flying to be something to do as a hobby, taking a plane from the AFB aero-club once a month is enjoyable, and flying out of the local Community College with my buddies is a lot of fun, but if I were to start flying for CAP, I can very easily burn myself out again. 

Not that the "old boys club" is a bad thing, I just really never liked the group of CAP pilots in my area, even when I was a Cadet. 

However, after my next deployment, when a new DCC takes over in my SQD and I get back, I may move into the flying arena.

I know......stupid reasons not to fly, but honestly, If I lived on the other side of my Wing, I would be flying all the time.   

[lordmonar]

It is intresting that you call out people for being too ES-centric and neglecting CP.....but you never mention AE.

CAP as an organisation has three distinct but interrelated missions.  That does not mean each and every squadron must participate in them....and by extention it does not mean each and every member must participate in each and every "mission" of CAP.

[Eclipse]

At a member-level all three may be optional, at a squadron level they should not be.

[lordmonar]

At a member-level all three may be optional, at a squadron level they should not be.

Assuming you have the personnel to do all three.

Also....Overseas Squadron are forbidden to do any ES missions....they can't even get a training mission number to get ES qualified.

And finally there is the practicallity aspect.  If you got a squadron that only wants to fly (and we got them here in Nevada)...and you want to do some CP stuff.....how do you force volunteers to spend their time doing something they don't want to?

[kpetersen]

At a member-level all three may be optional, at a squadron level they should not be.

Assuming you have the personnel to do all three.

Also....Overseas Squadron are forbidden to do any ES missions....they can't even get a training mission number to get ES qualified.

And finally there is the practicallity aspect.  If you got a squadron that only wants to fly (and we got them here in Nevada)...and you want to do some CP stuff.....how do you force volunteers to spend their time doing something they don't want to?

That's what senior squadrons are for ;-)

[mikeylikey]

^ Make them teach Aerospace.  Letting the pilots get away with "only flying" promotes the "pilot club" mentality we need to get away from.  If we end up losing pilots because of it, we will adjust our missions until we recruit new ones!

There are 3 missions, each and every SQD (other than overseas SQDs) should be doing.  Not doing them, is simply wrong.  

Granted there are Senior SQD's, that most likely only focus on ES and flying, there is no reason to do Cadet Programs there.  

[SarDragon]

^ Make them teach Aerospace.  Letting the pilots get away with "only flying" promotes the "pilot club" mentality we need to get away from.  If we end up losing pilots because of it, we will adjust our missions until we recruit new ones!

There are 3 missions, each and every SQD (other than overseas SQDs) should be doing.  Not doing them, is simply wrong. 

Granted there are Senior SQD's, that most likely only focus on ES and flying, there is no reason to do Cadet Programs there. 

I'm in a Senior Sq, and our contribution to CP is O-rides with our airplane. We'll be doing the first batch since we got the airplane sometime this month.

[Eclipse]

Also....Overseas Squadron are forbidden to do any ES missions....they can't even get a training mission number to get ES qualified.

Not exactly enough of those units to establish the rule, really, but still, the inability to get a mission number would not stop members from doing the training work for the learning and readiness aspect, unless you are saying they are prohibited from ES as a concept because they are overseas.

how do you force volunteers to spend their time doing something they don't want to?

You can't, really, but that doesn't absolve the unit CC from the responsibility of either running a full program or re-chartering to remove the parts they don't like.

Its somewhat circular, if the program is not in place, there's nothing to do, so you have to buy off the pain of some gnashing of teeth when you change the expectations.

There's no easy answer to this, which is why its an on-going problem.   

[SarDragon]

Regarding overseas units doing ES, it was as much a case of not having qualified instructors as it might have been of any official prohibition.

I didn't explore it much when I was in Pat's unit, but we did manage to do some weekend bivvies with some of the cop guys, one of which was in the unit. We also did moulage/victim duty for a couple of the AF exercises. The cadets loved that.

Many of the necessary GT skills can be taught, but anything to do with DFing, or radio operation would have been next to impossible. No flight ops either. If we couldn't do it on base, it wasn't going to happen.

[LittleIronPilot]

At a member-level all three may be optional, at a squadron level they should not be.

So, ummmm, uhhh....what is a SENIOR squadron supposed to do? Sure they will do O-rides and such, but they have NO CADETS and thus do not have a strong CP program.

My squadron is large, with about 50 seniors and 70 cadets. We do many things together, but we also do many, many things apart. Some want to work with the cadets, some want nothing to do with them.

That is the members choice, and fortunately we have the ability to accommodate them. If you were to ask me why *I* joined CAP, and wanted an honest answer, it is because of ES/SAR/CD. I am 39, I have no kids, am most likely not going to have kids, and generally have more fun around adults. Does this make me a bad person?

[IceNine]

Every unit has their purpose, as Eclipse said half of the battle is getting the unit CC to recognize that they are lacking in a particular area and they are then responsible for some corrective action.  While the preferred correction is to incorporate all 3 missions, it is not the only option.  If I was commander of a "composite" squadron with only 4 cadets and 45 SM Pilots there would be 2 options

1) Pull on the heart strings of the pilots that are parents and have them help me build up the cadet contingent.

2) find alternate units for my 4 cadets, and re-charter as a senior squadron.

Does rechartering take away the requirement to do CP, absolutely not.  There is still a requirement to do the work with the cadets through O-flights, AE workshops/classes, rocketry, etc.  And quite frankly the privledge to fly the aircraft in this organization, especially for free, should take a little more than a card with Orville and Wilbur, and a form 5. 

  I am a strong believer that if you are benefiting from something in this program it is your duty to return that to someone else.  Just as I don't promote comm or finance folks that aren't helping the unit with those quals, similarly I don't let pilots fly that don't use their knowledge to better the program as a whole

[Flying Pig]

^Over the past year or so, since I have been back in CAP, as part of a unit with an aircraft, we have people come and go.  We get instructors from local flight school looking to build time, and others like that.  When we start to talk to them about Form 5's, Form 91's and then ask them what Specialty Track they are interested in, and what staff job they would like, they don't come back.

I have been very frank with new members who are, or have aspirations of flying.  I tell them that there are a lot of opportunities in CAP, but if you think we are going to just throw you the keys, your mistaken.  CAP doesn't just happen on its own. My Sq. has a pretty good balance.

[mikeylikey]

^ There are many SQD's that don't have that "balance".  I was always a firm believer that every SQD should be a composite.  We need to do away with Senior SQD's, and Cadet SQD's.  There would be only a CAP SQD.

Face it, to be a Cadet SQD, you still need Senior Members.  So go out a recruit two more to make it a Composite.

Then the Senior SQD's I have been to, are always filled with non-compliant, lazy, t-shirt wearing Seniors, who only continue their memberships for the benefits it carries. 

[lordmonar]

Here in Las Vegas we have two senior Squadrons and three cadet squadrons.

The Senior Squadrons are all proffessional ES orinted organisaitons.  One has a very strong external and internal AE program.  Both support the cadet program through O-rides, inclusion of cadets in the ES program and willing ness to work with cadets when asked.

But the do not want the cadets to be part of their everyday activities.....and I agree with them.  The way they run their program is great for them....and it completely different then the way the cadet programs are run.

Would it be nice to have every squadron doing all the missions?

Sure thing.

But it won't be practical.

Not all squadrons have the manpower for it.
Not all squadrons have the right skill mix for it.
Not all squadrons have the "demand" for it.

[mikeylikey]

Here in Las Vegas we have two senior Squadrons and three cadet squadrons.

Do any of the Senior and Cadet SQD's meet at the same location, but on different nights, or in separation at the same location?

I was a member of a Senior SQD that met the same night as a the Cadet SQD, and at the same location.  It was foolish not to "composite" both units together.  You can still run Senior crap and Cadet crap separately.  No big deal!

[lordmonar]

Yes...two senior squadorns and one cadet squadron meet in the same place...and the cadets and one SR squadron meet on the same night.

But you miss the point....the Senior Squadron wants nothing to do with cadet beyond O-rides, and working with them during SAREX's.

They don't want or need the added overhead of a cadet squadron.

Right, wrong...or indifferent.....that is the way it is.

[mikeylikey]

^ It is wrong.  There are three missions in CAP.  Do all three! 

From my standpoint, those Seniors have a lot of nerve to say they want nothing to do with the Cadets.  If I were NHQ (or even the Wing) I would have consolidated those units years ago. 

I just don't see what overhead there is with a Composite SQD.  Thats why you have a DCC.  To RUN the Cadet program. 

Both the Cadets and Seniors are missing out on a great opportunity. 

[lordmonar]

What about my seniors in my squadron who want nothing to do with ES?

Just like any organisation.....the ORGANISATION may do many things....but different divisions, offices and individuals focus only on one portion on the big picture.

It would be like asking Infantry Plantoons to be proficiant in heavy communications, artillary and armor.

The cadets are not missing out on anything....except maybe boring bi-monthly buisness meetings.

As for overhead....maintaining a program that keeps cadets engaged is a lot more man power intensive than a program aimed at senior members.  Likewise maintaining cadet records is much more manpower intensive.

[IceNine]

Yes...two senior squadorns and one cadet squadron meet in the same place...and the cadets and one SR squadron meet on the same night.

But you miss the point....the Senior Squadron wants nothing to do with cadet beyond O-rides, and working with them during SAREX's.

They don't want or need the added overhead of a cadet squadron.

Right, wrong...or indifferent.....that is the way it is.

Not to derail too much but...

There are three squadron meeting at the same location?!?!?  How is that an effective use of resources?  To me you are looking at a completely defunked system in need of some serious realignment.  At the very least you should have one massive senior squadron, and a cadet squadron.  If you truely believe that with enough staff to warrant 2 senior squadron in the same location, that there are not enough of them to composite the unit. 

Then do I have some property you should look at

[lordmonar]

Big building. 

[isuhawkeye]

Just to throw a wrench in here..

Why shouldn't units, or members be aloud to specialize?

There is not a single small scale unit in the military that tries to do it all.  Event the mighty air force segments out jobs, and responsibilities between units. 

If a unit with a strong CP doesn't want to do ES why should they be forced to? doesn't specialization lead to a stronger more experienced group of volunteers?

[sarflyer]

Units who don't make use of all three missions are diminished, not strenghtened.  All three mission work together to make a well-rounded, diverse squadron.

It also keeps members interested with the wide variety of activities.

[IceNine]

Not only are they diminished, but more importantly units that specialize get into the sandbox mentality and you will ONLY see them or their members when it benefits them.

For instance, group is supporting a the VFW for a 4th of July event that requires large amounts of CAP folks but because there is no ES training involved you only get support from 2 out of your 5 units. 

Its a slippery slope to allow units to not participate in all of the aspects of our program

[MIKE]

I'd agree that a Cadet or Composite Squadron that specializes in ES is very bad... but I think trying to do all three for the sake of being "well rounded" is not any better... it results in Jack of all trades, master of none.  And it hurts units in the areas they should be focusing on.  It should be obvious what a Cadet Squadron should be focused on... CAP doesn't have ES Squadrons.

[Major Carrales]

I'd agree that a Cadet or Composite Squadron that specializes in ES is very bad... but I think trying to do all three for the sake of being "well rounded" is not any better... it results in Jack of all trades, master of none.  And it hurts units in the areas they should be focusing on.  It should be obvious what a Cadet Squadron should be focused on... CAP doesn't have ES Squadrons.

I totally disagree.  The Composite Squadron, when properly managed, is the best environment for CAP.  In a composite squadron the key comes from staffing.  Honestly, Jack of all trades, master of none....ridiculous.  What you need are the key people in the key positions working to make their portion of the unit the best at what it does.

The three missions of CAP are all of our missions, even the CAP Officer in the Cadet Squadron needs to be aware that they have three missions.  Seniors in a Senior squadron have to recognize the fact that there are Cadets in CAP. Don't "shoot" Peter to pay Paul; because then Paul is pretty lonely and, in terms of CAP, less attractive to those that would fund us.

Be honest, the Cadet Program appeals to one group of Politicians and the Emergency Services appeals to the others.  Remove the one and there is a real orgaizational "structural integrity" issues.  In fact, in our area, it is the power of having both that insures community support.  Be sure to enter that into the calculus of CAP's main purpose.

[mikeylikey]

As for overhead....maintaining a program that keeps cadets engaged is a lot more man power intensive than a program aimed at senior members.  Likewise maintaining cadet records is much more manpower intensive.

There are many SQD's that run a very successful Cadet Program with one or two CAP Officers.  I have done it myself, upward of a year.  Honestly, I can whip through the paperwork very fast on the Cadet Side.  Even faster now, that promotions can be input on line. 

There is no overhead with the Cadet side.  Actually, I would say it is easier to run a Cadet Program than it is to run a Senior Program.  The Cadets can basically "run themselves" with proper guidance.   

[Major Carrales]

Let me have my say on this in a more global sense than the above "reply" to MIKE.  After reading that post I can see its incomplete nature may make fertile ground for misunderstanding.

I will start and end with this simple phrase...

The purpose of CAP is NOT to operate three organizaions under the umbrella of CAP, but rather operate one Organization that accomplishes three missions.

Thus...

I have seen in the above posts instances of multiple units meeting at the same location based on the idea that ES and CADET  PROGRAMS should be somehow in schism.  In such a situation it seems like the idea that "simplicity is the natural state" of the universe is negated.

I will state the following facts and logical points of analysis...
1) CAP is most attractive when it appeals to the supporters of the ES and Cadet Programs, this provides two fronts of support of legislators and other policy makers.

2) CAP has three missions that are (or at least should be) equal in their implementation.  These missons are neither mutually exclusive nor the singluar push of the greater whole; but rather, they are furthered within the sphere of and scope of their goals.  This CP is not an obstalce to ES and vice-versa.

3) CAP units are basically service and mutual aid organizations to the communities they serve.  This being said, CAP units often have to compete for volunteers and the use of facilities.  This often creates a lack of staff.

I submit to you all that having a Cadet and Senior squadron that meets in the same location is basically an adminsitrative item of illogic since a Composite Squadron, run in the proper manner, is basically the same thing.

To have the two in schism demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the points made above where the MISSIONS of CAP work in harmony.

Perhaps, if those in leadership...the Squadron Commanders and deputies, understood that the one program does not diminish the other or that a "General Purpose" CAP leader who manages the activities of deputies (through delegation insuring that ES and CADET PROGRAMs are operating in a viable fashion) is a "better" administrative entity than two Specialty commanders operating in schism...and many times in direct rivalry and contempt of one another.

Remember that all the above is ancillary since the purpose of CAP is NOT to operate three organizaions under the umbrella of CAP, but rather operate one Organization that accomplishes three missions.

[Eclipse]

I submit to you all that having a Cadet and Senior squadron that meets in the same location is basically an adminsitrative item of illogic since a Composite Squadron, run in the proper manner, is basically the same thing.

I was basically thinking the same thing, and as to overhead, an active cadet program has a lot more than a senior program - regular testing, promotions, probably twice the activities, parental approval, etc.

[Short Field]

How is that an effective use of resources? 

If you knew all the details on the resources they have - you would move to Las Vegas!!!  CAP in the Las Vegas area is supported very well.

IIRC,  two senior squadrons have office space on Nellis AFB - basically their own building.  One cadet composite squadron has meeting and office space in another Nellis AFB building.  The two senior squadrons and one cadet squadron hold their meetings at North Las Vegas Airport.  One of the senior squadrons and the cadet squadron meet on the same night - different large rooms.  However, the senior squadron only meets twice a month and the cadet squadron meets every week.  One Composite Squadron meets at Henderson Executive Airport.  There is another cadet school squadron that operates in a local grade school plus another CAP school program operating in a separate school.   The Mission Base is the sole occupant of and operates from the Ranch House.  All squadrons (senior, composite, and cadet) have access to the building and use it as needed or desired.  The Ranch House is an historical building on North Las Vegas Airport next to the hangers that CAP aircraft are parked in.  No one pays any rent or utilities on their meeting, office, or mission base spaces.  CAP only pays the ramp parking fee for the hangers.  Oh, they also got 32 late model computers with flat screen monitors donated to them this year.    It took their leadership years to make and keep the relationships that gets this level of support. 

:clap:  :clap:  :clap: I would have to say they are doing OK in supporting the three major missions of CAP.

[stratoflyer]

I agree wholeheartedly with Major Carrales. Civil Air Patrol is in fact 1 organization with three primary missions that are each equally important: Aerospace Education, Emergency Services, and Cadet Programs.

Indeed, a composite squadron with proper command delegation can successfully carry out these missions. In response to the Las Vegas comment, people in that area must certainly understand that CAP has multiple fronts. We are here to help young people become leaders and outstanding citizens. We are here to assist those in need whether in the capacity of search and rescue or disaster relief. We are here to educate the public on America's aerospace superiority. (We remain the number country for training pilots).

It is true, CAP can be what you make of it. For some, it's a flying club. For others, it is a breeding ground for future leaders. However, what must be kept in mind is that no matter what we specialize in individually, ultimately, we have a calling to serve this country as civilian volunteers of the Air Force Auxiliary.

Since the days of CAP's conception, this organization was made to serve the United States in a capacity required by the era--in WWII it was sub-patrols; today our missions have been expanded. It is to say that whatever needs there may be, if CAP can somehow assist, then it should. And that, I believe, is the real purpose of CAP.

[ThorntonOL]

When it comes to my unit, I would say it is sort of jack of all trades, But I am not saying we don't do well. We cover Aerospace Ed, Cadet Programs and ES. We just have people who are intrested in each field. From our seniors almost all of them have or had or were a cadet in the CAP.
My dad joined because I liked the program and ended up for several years as our unit commander.
He's no longer the commander but he still comes to the meetings and is currently the Safety Officer. When I joined we had been meeting in three different rooms at a local airport but due to age of the building and other factors we moved up to an old meeting place of a somewhat local unit that moved upstate a little ways and we're growing.
Just a question.
We have some cadets who came in liking the program but not really knowing what they want to do. How do you figure out what attracted your cadets?

[Eclipse]

We have some cadets who came in liking the program but not really knowing what they want to do. How do you figure out what attracted your cadets?

Ask them?

[stratoflyer]

Just a question.
We have some cadets who came in liking the program but not really knowing what they want to do. How do you figure out what attracted your cadets?

Have cadets with more experience talk to these cadets about various CAP activities--national activities, encampments, earning a pilot's license through CAP. Show them some videos of national activities.

Most importantly, have them participate in as much as possible at the squadron, and motivate them through their promotions and give them things to do with increasing responsibility.

They must understand our fundamental missions and also our history and heritage.

[lordmonar]

Not only are they diminished, but more importantly units that specialize get into the sandbox mentality and you will ONLY see them or their members when it benefits them.

For instance, group is supporting a the VFW for a 4th of July event that requires large amounts of CAP folks but because there is no ES training involved you only get support from 2 out of your 5 units. 

Its a slippery slope to allow units to not participate in all of the aspects of our program

Just to play devil's advocate.....what mission was this support for the VFW fullfilling?

[lordmonar]

As for overhead....maintaining a program that keeps cadets engaged is a lot more man power intensive than a program aimed at senior members.  Likewise maintaining cadet records is much more manpower intensive.

There are many SQD's that run a very successful Cadet Program with one or two CAP Officers.  I have done it myself, upward of a year.  Honestly, I can whip through the paperwork very fast on the Cadet Side.  Even faster now, that promotions can be input on line. 

There is no overhead with the Cadet side.  Actually, I would say it is easier to run a Cadet Program than it is to run a Senior Program.  The Cadets can basically "run themselves" with proper guidance.   

And now you want those one or two officers to also do ES, and an exteranal AE program.

[LittleIronPilot]

Well I guess it is time for me to take my enthusiasm, drive, experience, and knowledge and leave CAP.

You see I WILL work with Cadets as needed to fulfill the mission. I am into ES, and to support that mission, I want as many ES qualified and trained individuals as I can get.

However I really have little desire to do much else with the Cadets. That is MY choice, period, end-of-story. I am not a parent, do not want to be, and have no desire to do much else with the Cadets.

According to some I am a terrible CAP'er and should turn in my card tomorrow. 

[NEBoom]

^Ah, but your willingness to work with Cadets in the "ES realm" is contributing an important part of their development.  The sense of service, and of mission that Cadets get from participation in ES is a big part of what they learn as Cadets.

If that's all you want to do with cadets, so be it!  It's an important thing you're doing, and somebody needs to lead the Cadets in ES work.  It's OK in my book for individuals to specialize in whatever area of CAP they wish (within limits of course, we do need people to take on the "unglamorous" jobs after all!).

[FW]

Well I guess it is time for me to take my enthusiasm, drive, experience, and knowledge and leave CAP.

You see I WILL work with Cadets as needed to fulfill the mission. I am into ES, and to support that mission, I want as many ES qualified and trained individuals as I can get.

However I really have little desire to do much else with the Cadets. That is MY choice, period, end-of-story. I am not a parent, do not want to be, and have no desire to do much else with the Cadets.

According to some I am a terrible CAP'er and should turn in my card tomorrow. 

So, L.I.P., you don't want to work with cadets.  Sounds like a good choice.  I rarely work with cadets.  An occasional O'flight or two every so often is all I can handle at this point.
However, how is not wanting to work with cadets  the reason for leaving CAP?
Just because there are other opinions out there doesn't make any of them right.  I don't remember anyone getting paid for their participation nor do we pay members for their input on CAPTALK (if I'm wrong, how do I get my check?  ).  

Take it for what it's worth; do what you want in CAP.  Don't let anyone tell you your participation is wrong and don't take any more "LIP" from those who tell you different

[Major Carrales]

Well I guess it is time for me to take my enthusiasm, drive, experience, and knowledge and leave CAP.

You see I WILL work with Cadets as needed to fulfill the mission. I am into ES, and to support that mission, I want as many ES qualified and trained individuals as I can get.

However I really have little desire to do much else with the Cadets. That is MY choice, period, end-of-story. I am not a parent, do not want to be, and have no desire to do much else with the Cadets.

According to some I am a terrible CAP'er and should turn in my card tomorrow. 

No, I think your seniments are spot on.   CAP Cadets are CAP members two, as a CAP Officer you need to present yourself as a role model.

Everyone makes CAP what they want it to be within the scope of the regulations and standard practice.  In South Texas, most CADETS are attracted to CAP for two main reasons...
1) They want to beling to something (the CP program leadership training, association with cadets from around the Wing, Group)

2) They want to belong to something meaningful (most Cadets that join want to do as much ES stuff as they can...it become an "extracurricular" activity that allow them to do more than drill in "squares and circles," but use that as a lesson to be part of a team)

One does not have to learn to drill, drill cadets or any of the other "program" stuff, but one does need to exist to them in two main areas...

1) Inspiration- Seeing a CAP officer partaking in ES in CAP (air and ground) greatly increases the chance that they will grow up to be persons who hold a value in "hardcore" commuity volunteer.  Plus, if the Cadet choose to do ES, having a menor who can really show them a thing or to of meaningful ES will create a better experience for both.

2) Education- Especially the aviator.  CAP aviators are a University's worth of Aerospace Education.  They don;t need to spend their time as the AE officer; however, they can mentor Cadets, give presentations and make themselves available to answer aviation questions.  Same for any other "skill" brought into CAP.  If a cadet like Law Enforcement, and there are CAP Officer who are part of that field, what crime is it to give that cadet a little foundation?

Many CAP Officer claim they they don't "have the time" to serve as mentors, however, I respectfully submit that it is not all that much a "drag" to "be there" for cadets.

Simply put, as CAP members (especially as adult ones) when one part of our mission fails we are all responsible.  If a unit divides into a CADET and SENIOR squadrons, and the Cadet squadron prmoptly fails...then it is everyone's responsibility to own up for that.

This schism has got ot end and everyone need to take some time and reflect on the overall MISSION of the CAP.  You should do the most where you can do it best, but you should also extend help, guidence and support to the rest of it.  That is the WHOLE CAP APPROACH.

[Major Carrales]

So, L.I.P., you don't want to work with cadets.  Sounds like a good choice.  I rarely work with cadets.  An occasional O'flight or two every so often is all I can handle at this point.

FW, sound like you think Cadets are a "burden."  I hope that is merely a misunderstanding on my end.

It seems to me that your contribution to O-flights manifests itself as your support of the Cadet Program. 

No one is say you, or anyone, needs to "babysit," cadets or participate in their CADET PROGRAM centered activities (like drill, competitions or the like). 

I will add that all in all CAP cadets make up the most well behaved of children.  You read so much about how "out of control" children are today, however, when Cadets do that sort of stuff in CAP they are gone.  I agree totally with that, we only need to service cadets that 1) want to be there, 2) can handle the activity and 3) are free from criminal tendencies. ( if anyone needs clarification on what that means please feel free to comment.  I am a reasonable person and I believe in what Students/Cadet/Young Adult can do; however there are limits to our abilities)

No one, and I mean I hope no one, espects  ALL CAP Offcers to run a cadet  program.  Many times, just being there for O-Flights, displaying a professional stance of solid airmanship and resisting the urge to act like those so many old curmudgeons is enough to insure that a CAP cadet remembers their CAP years, and those who were there for them, with a degree of pride.

Who knows, some more cadet in future years might...without your realization...list you among the most influential persons that help inspire them to a career or advanced education. 

[Smithsonia]

Historically we started as Pilots and Planes in search of... (not people or downed planes) but of a mission. CAP was civilians who couldn't get gas during WW2, were too old to go to war, but wanted to fly. They offered their services to the government as volunteers. We weren't Army Air Corps (AF) but we were Civil Defense. We didn't start out doing SAR as a core mission. Although we participated in SAR, we didn't get the assignment from the Army Air Corps until March 1943. We got the submarine duty the same way. We offered to help> Did a demonstration of our capability and moved the CAP from mission to mission. SO...

If my country needs me to look for illegal aliens, dope factories, white-lightening stills, lost hikers, teach kids and cadets AE, man an anti aircraft gun, secure the perimeter of an airport, man an all-night duty station at a military base, or be a gas-jockey for F18s... I'm there. BUT, it should be stated that as we've always been... "We are volunteer pilots and planes in search of a mission." Getting too wedded or rooted to any particular mission means we'll become stagnant and obsolete. The Civilian Defense Corps, Civilian Pilot Training Program, Civilian Coastal Watch Network, and Civilian Communication Groups were all formed the same time we were. All of them are now either gone or replaced. Only CAP remains intact due to its capacity to change more than anything else. So while we need to be mission capable, let's be very mission flexible too.

With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[RiverAux]

Although we participated in SAR, we didn't get the assignment from the Army Air Corps until March 1943.

I'd like to see a citation for that.  Flying Minute Men mentions one SAR search from winter 1942 and I know my own wing looked for a missing person in the spring of 1942. 

People who have been around, know that the "three mission" mindset is something I disagree with.  Why?  Because we actually have 6 missions according to federal law:

1.  Encourage and aid citizens of the United States in contributing their efforts, services, and resources in developing aviation and in maintaining air supremacy.

2.  Encourage and develop by example the voluntary contribution of private citizens to the public welfare.

3.  To provide aviation education and training especially to its senior and cadet members.

4.  To encourage and foster civil aviation in local communities.

5.  To provide an organization of private citizens with adequate facilities to assist in meeting local and national emergencies.

6.  To assist the Department of the Air Force in fulfilling its non-combat programs and missions.

We are finally starting to address #6 more fully with the VSAF program, but still are woefully inadequate in regards to #4. 

I did a thread a while back pointing out that despite the three mission mantra, the cadet program itself isn't technically one of our purposes.  It is just a subset of our aerospace education mission (#3).  If someone wants to dig that thread out, we can discuss this point there. 

[FW]

FW, sound like you think Cadets are a "burden."  I hope that is merely a misunderstanding on my end.

Sparky, it is a misunderstanding that I, a former cadet, who ended up a sq./cc of the same cadet squadron that produced 4 wing commanders and 2 NEC members, 2 of whom were "my cadets", think cadets are a burden.

I was just speaking to LIP and his perceptions of the current situation.  My current participation with cadets is limited now because of time constraints and because I don't get asked to do much with them anymore.  My current position in CAP is more of a behind the scenes tasking.  I make sure things can go smoothly and let others worry about doing it.  It's a way to recharge the batteries and be ready to go when I'm back in a more "active" role.

[Smithsonia]

Riverux;
Here's the official Air Force History from the AF website. SEE BELOW. 1st and 2nd Air Force had their own
SAR capability in the early War Years. BUT they flew big planes and couldn't work close to the ground particularly close to mountains. It wasn't until CAP handled the New Mexico B-24 crash in Dec '42 (See Neprud Book pg. 152) and another accident in Oregon/Calif., I think, that in March '43 we got the SAR Tasking Portfolio (Final order signed by FDR, Apr. 29 '43) when we became part of the Army Air Forces. At that time, CAP was already doing courier flights and had completely surveyed the mountains and shown they knew what they were doing. Read Chapters 7 and 10 of Flying Minute Men.
I didn't say we didn't participate in SAR before March '43. But we weren't given the primary tasking until March 1943.
With regards; ED OBRIEN

History
Civil Air Patrol was founded Dec. 1, 1941. During World War II, its principal purpose was to allow private pilots and aviation enthusiasts to use their light aircraft and flying skills in civil defense efforts. In 1943, the organization came under control and direction of the Army Air Forces. Civil Air Patrol became a permanent peacetime institution July 1, 1946, when President Harry S. Truman signed Public Law 476 establishing it as a federally chartered, benevolent, civilian corporation.

[Major Carrales]

Sparky, it is a misunderstanding that I, a former cadet, who ended up a sq./cc of the same cadet squadron that produced 4 wing commanders and 2 NEC members, 2 of whom were "my cadets", think cadets are a burden.

I was hoping that was the case.  Many times in this particular medium of discussion we, in this case I, place more (or less) meaning on things.  I'm try to develop a "mental module" that will mitigate that in my case.

My issue tends to be with those that treat cadets as some sort of pariahs or other annoyance.  It is to those that I remind that we are one organization with three missions.

[stratoflyer]

There was a reply above that said something rather interesting: our missions have been changing. I think I hit on that point but it clearly makes sense that as times change, so should what CAP does. The Air Force has changed dramatically over years (look at what's on the horizon with UAV's). Ultimately, our purpose is to perform tasks that assist the nation.

We actually have 6 missions according to federal law:

1.  Encourage and aid citizens of the United States in contributing their efforts, services, and resources in developing aviation and in maintaining air supremacy.

2.  Encourage and develop by example the voluntary contribution of private citizens to the public welfare.

3.  To provide aviation education and training especially to its senior and cadet members.

4.  To encourage and foster civil aviation in local communities.

5.  To provide an organization of private citizens with adequate facilities to assist in meeting local and national emergencies.

6.  To assist the Department of the Air Force in fulfilling its non-combat programs and missions.

If you read that, then it should be clear that the cadet program addresses several of those points simultaneously.

In response to those who don't want to work with cadets: that is fine. However, you are still obliged to meet the professional standards of CAP because even though you may not be interacting with cadets, you are definitely still visible. Many of these cadets are young and highly impressionable. I dislike it very much when I hear cadets complaining about senior members that wear their uniforms incorrectly, who swear, and who pretty much forget that they are in CAP.

So if you don't want to work with cadets, that is ok. In fact, that may make you the ES specialist we need since you can concentrate on that fully. And if you still teach an ES class to someone who in turn teaches it to cadets, you just made CAP that much better.

Folks, together we bring as individuals different things to this program. When we work together, which is another important part of being in CAP--teamwork--we collectively improve the program and carry out the objectives outlined by federal law and we have an immense impact on everyone else.

So how about instead of asking what should CAP be doing, why not ask how am I working to improve CAP? Ask yourselves, I am being the very best I can be? Does not matter what you do in CAP, just do it uncommonly well.

[Smithsonia]

Stratoflyer;
I agree. I don't think you, me, or anyone else can be an expert at everything, even in CAP. ES specialists, AE Specialists, Comm Specialists, Top-flight SAR Pilots, the Best Scanner/Observers, plane mechanic, logistics, staff, on and on... are needed to make CAP work. Each expert has "tribal knowledge" some things that only they or a few others know.

In my squadron we've got some really great people who do little else but their one specific job. In that job they all seem to be urgently driving toward mastery. Good for them and good for CAP. I think the questions: What jobs CAP has available? What experts CAP needs? What level of expertise is required... needs to be answered by NHQ and WING... then we in the squadrons (composite, Senior, cadet) pick what we do best.

I do history. I like it a lot. I've done it professionally for many years. I think I'm relatively good. I also like ES BUT we have many many experts way out of my league in that field. So in some matters I take the lead. In some matters I listen and occasionally I ask a dumb question. I like to learn so I'm not unhappy being a neophyte. I should be around long enough and get enough experience to get better. This is one of CAPs great strengths. Long lived members with much "tribal knowledge" who can get you up to speed 10 times faster than learning by trial and error. I admire those members, appreciate their time trying to get me going, and hope to be of service when they no longer can serve. That said...

CAP's mission is to survive. To survive we need to be necessary, relevant, and flexible. To be flexible we need expertise along a broad scope of endeavors. AND, we need to keep questioning ourselves... "What do we need to do to remain relevant?" What can we do for you? How can we better serve our community and our country? Answer that and you'll know what the real purpose of CAP is. Leverage the internal knowledge base within CAP and our future is bright if not completely clear.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[stratoflyer]

^ :clap:

Well said.

[Smithsonia]

Thank you; Good luck always!
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[flyerthom]

At a member-level all three may be optional, at a squadron level they should not be.

So, ummmm, uhhh....what is a SENIOR squadron supposed to do? Sure they will do O-rides and such, but they have NO CADETS and thus do not have a strong CP program.

My squadron is large, with about 50 seniors and 70 cadets. We do many things together, but we also do many, many things apart. Some want to work with the cadets, some want nothing to do with them.

That is the members choice, and fortunately we have the ability to accommodate them. If you were to ask me why *I* joined CAP, and wanted an honest answer, it is because of ES/SAR/CD. I am 39, I have no kids, am most likely not going to have kids, and generally have more fun around adults. Does this make me a bad person?

I'm 46 and right with you by choice. So no, those of us sans children are not bad people.

That being said I did a helicopter LZ course for a cadet squadron and one of our seniors is running the glider program. Like you said, there are spots for everyone. Pick from the bufeet and dig in!

[flyerthom]

^ It is wrong.  There are three missions in CAP.  Do all three! 

From my standpoint, those Seniors have a lot of nerve to say they want nothing to do with the Cadets.  If I were NHQ (or even the Wing) I would have consolidated those units years ago. 

I just don't see what overhead there is with a Composite SQD.  Thats why you have a DCC.  To RUN the Cadet program. 

Both the Cadets and Seniors are missing out on a great opportunity. 

What's not on the table here is - the Senior squadron is an older unit that was chartered as a senior unit. The cadet squadron is new and moved their meeting night to the same night as the senior unit into an empty room. The command structures are different, the agendas different, the established senior squadron would adjust poorly to a merger and the new independent cadet squadron is enjoying it's autonomy. The cadet squadron separated from a totally different squadron recently then moved the meeting night to the seniors' usual night. Forcing a merger would not benefit either group.

[proveritas]

In response to those who don't want to work with cadets: that is fine. However, you are still obliged to meet the professional standards of CAP because even though you may not be interacting with cadets, you are definitely still visible. Many of these cadets are young and highly impressionable. I dislike it very much when I hear cadets complaining about senior members that wear their uniforms incorrectly, who swear, and who pretty much forget that they are in CAP.

Agreed. How "fair" is it to expect them to act professionally if we aren't? Those 14-year-old kids have a surreal way of spotting goofs.


One of the things I love about CAP is the opportunities it offers for everyone to find their little "niche" and fill it. We aren't just an ES organization or a youth organization or a flying club. We get so much more in the mix. I like to write, take pictures, and tromp in the woods. I get to do all of that in CAP. However, if I get so focused on the way I want to do my little "job" or the way "we've" always done things, it's only going to hurt my unit in the long run.

Taking the best experience has to offer, but still being flexible enough to "adapt" can't be beat.

[smj58501]

One of the more interesting CAPTalk discussions as of late. Throughout it all, I am reminded of one of Dr. Steven Covey's quotes from his "4 Disciplines of Execution" seminar:

"If everything is a priority, then NOTHING is a priority"

[ZigZag911]

Aside from my years as a cadet, I spent nearly 20 years as a senior supporting the cadet program very directly.

My work responsibilities simply no longer permit the weekly meeting participation (and often daily obligations!) involved in actively working directly with the cadet program.

So my current CAP efforts are primarily ES related, training, planning, preparing....which, happily, from time to time still permits some direct involvement with cadets (as an ES instructor or IC at a SAREX, mostly).

CAP's got three missions -- we all have some obligation to each, but no one can be doing all three at the same time equally well!

[flyerthom]

Just to make things interesting we've been talking of missions. Missions are done to accomplish the purpose of CAP. All our missions build leaders and citizens. In many ways CAP is one of the few organizations that truly do think globally (or at least nationally) and act locally.  I would suggest the following is our purpose:

why we are here