What is "playing soldier?"

[Nomex Maximus]

So until we all agree with YOU, we have closed minds?, But you are the enlightened one, who is under no obligation to attempt to see our point of view? Boy does that attitude sound familiar.

I agree, hazing is bad, but there is no need to throw out the baby with the bath water, so to speak. And I believe that you can honor basic set of traditions, and intelligent people can change obvious wrongs, without becoming anarchists.

The impression I have gotten here on CAPTALK is that a question gets asked: "What do you guys think about ... ?" and apparently to answer with anything other than, "Gee whiz that's a great idea!" is to be "anarchist" as you call it. To have a differing opinion is seen as unpatriotic anti-military deviant socio-psycho-pathetic behavior.

You must think that I am a terrible person and a truly awful addition to CAP. But next month I will probably get promoted to second lieutenant and get the checkride done and be practicing search pattern flying in the CAP aircraft. And the reason why you think I am a terrible person is that I don't think you all need to stand in formation at attention while I get promoted. I would much rather we all spent the time practicing some ES skills.

[Eclipse]

((*snip*))... next month I will probably get promoted to second lieutenant and get the checkride done and be practicing search pattern flying. The reason I am a terrible person is that I don't think you all need to stand in formation at attention while I get promoted. I would much rather we all spent the time practicing some ES skills.

This is specifically the attitude that is causing us so much problem in CAP, members who believe they can pick and choose which parts of the program they think are important. You say the military traditions are not important in the same paragraph you indicate you expect to be appointed a 2d Lt. Why bother with that?
Stay a Senior Member as a matter of protest - its "meaningless" anyway.

CAP is a paramilitary organization, and like it or not, the reason we have that airplane you intend to fly is because we are a part of a military organization.

CAP is unique in that it is one of the few volunteer ES organizations that purports to provide a professional level of service while not expecting a professional level of participation and behavior from its members.

This has nothing to do with whether you or not you will be a good pilot - cherry picking the program will not make you an asset to the organization.

The backlash you are feeling is from the frustration we all feel when slick-sleeve members join the organization with eyes open and then start suggesting that things which have served us well for 60+ years are "unnecessary".

We all have access to the ARC, CERT teams, volunteer fire departments, etc., but many of us chose CAP in part because of the military affiliation and the higher-standards that affiliation requires and expects.

[Major Carrales]

You must think that I am a terrible person and a truly awful addition to CAP. But next month I will probably get promoted to second lieutenant and get the checkride done and be practicing search pattern flying in the CAP aircraft. And the reason why you think I am a terrible person is that I don't think you all need to stand in formation at attention while I get promoted. I would much rather we all spent the time practicing some ES skills.

Gee Whiz, goes it physically hurt you to merely stand at attention, get a pair of shoulder marks then return to whatever it was you were doing?

Yours here is a specious argument, getting promoted via ceremony does not take the huge amount of time "away from ES" as you say.

When we do our pormotions, we have the cadets stand at attention...most seniors stand in their place.  Sort of as reverent spectators.  We all clap and its over.

[Hawk200]

But next month I will probably get promoted to second lieutenant...

So do you actually wish to be recognized as a second lieutenant?

...I don't think you all need to stand in formation at attention while I get promoted.

Because this is how you get recognized as one. One of the reasons the military does it is to show that a person in the unit is advancing, and show that they have both more privileges and responsbility.

It's also a morale booster for units. Ever consider that your fellow team members would like to watch you get promoted? They take pride in you too.

...I would much rather we all spent the time practicing some ES skills.

And giving up ten minutes is going to impair your ES abilities how? There is ES, but there are other things that need to get done too. Like paperwork. And there can be lots of it in ES. It's not just about doing the woods tromp, it's about documenting it too.

[JohnKachenmeister]

. . .

Tradtions are important in every aspect of our lives. If you are married, did you have a ceremony, with a Minister, Priest or Rabbi? Or did a Justice of the Peace sign a Marriage Liscence and say "you're married, now get out of my office"?  Both have the same effect, both are legal. I am betting, it was the former, because that is a tradition in our society. If you went to a university, I bet there are traditions that were obverved there, that you remember to this day. At Texas Tech, they ring the bells after a sports victory, at A&M, they have the Bonfire, and at  UT, they have Bevo and the cannon. All are traditions, and all are important.

You are a pilot, did your instructor cut off the back of your shirt when you soloed? That also is a tradition.

CAP's tradition is that of a MILITARY history, and is no less important to many of us. Don't expect to insult and degrade that and not get a severe reaction from the rest of us.

So if it is a military tradition, we do it regardless of whether or not it makes sense to do it? Sorry but I do find that sort of dumb.

A common and widespread military tradition has been hazing. Is that a tradition we should  maintain?

I do not intend to insult anyone here. But if you all can't have a civil discussion about the merits of a practice then you all can just be insulted.

It's a big world, open your minds.

Sheesh.

I did not intend to respond to any more of your anti-military posts, but I cannot allow a falsehood to remain unanswered. 

There has never been any tradition of "Hazing" in the military.  The closest thing to hazing is the tradition in the Marine Corps of "Sticking on" stipes with a playful punch to the shoulder, and the Army's "Bloodpinning" of wings.  Both have, by some units, been carried to extremes, and discipline had to be applied, but within the standards of common sense, both traditions are pleasant expressions of comradery. 

Again, such posts are illustrative of a strong anti-military bias, despite your half-hearted denials of such an attitude.

[Nomex Maximus]

And for my part I don't see these exchanges to be any more useful or productive than playing soldier.

[Skyray]

Hazing is in the eye of the beholder.  I had a trainer in basic training who was a civilian because he had been injured in a plane crash in World War II, and he could no longer meet the physical requirements of the service.  After his injury he ran through the jungles of Southeast Asia for twenty-four hours with Japanese forces in close pursuit.  He demanded great things of us, sometimes near impossible things.  I can see his demands being characterized as "hazing" by the protected, spoiled, and coddled, and but the truth of the matter is that none of us considered it hazing.  We considered it training.  Fortunately, I never had to fall back on that training, but I have close friends who did.  Read John McCain's biography for more information.

[Nomex Maximus]

No hazing in the military? Not ever? Hmmm... wonder where the practice of "dry shaving" came from? The Girl Scouts?

[Eclipse]

And for my part I don't see these exchanges to be any more useful or productive than playing soldier.

[Hawk200]

No hazing in the military? Not ever? Hmmm... wonder where the practice of "dry shaving" came from? The Girl Scouts?

Dry shaving=hazing?

That's utterly ridiculous. It's a lot smarter to dryshave than to use cold water. The first few times I was in the field, I tried to shave with cold water. It's stupid, you cut yourself to pieces.

It's not hazing to do so, and such a statement is completely ignorant.

[Nomex Maximus]

No hazing in the military? Not ever? Hmmm... wonder where the practice of "dry shaving" came from? The Girl Scouts?

Dry shaving=hazing?

That's utterly ridiculous. It's a lot smarter to dryshave than to use cold water. The first few times I was in the field, I tried to shave with cold water. It's stupid, you cut yourself to pieces.

It's not hazing to do so, and such a statement is completely ignorant.

oooooo-kay, let's spell this one out. "Dry Shaving" involves a drill sergeant taking a razor and intentionally dragging it across some rough surface, say the bark of a tree. The razor is then given back to the trainee and the trainee is ordered to shave with it, perhaps while running in place, no water, no shave cream. If the trainee refuses he was held down and dry shaved. The result is very bloody. I met a guy a year or two later I was in and he told me that the reason he wore a full beard was that he was the victim of such hazing and the beard was needed to hide the scars. Was it common? Well the unit I was in was threatened with it a number of times and it seemed to be a common part of the vocabulary in the late 70's US Army, so I'd have to say that that little bit of hazing was in fact going on. Right up there with "blanket parties" which we were also routinely threatened with. Where? Try Fort Dix NJ.

[Skyray]

As the Hawk pointed out, sometimes dry shaving is a necessity.  I finally sprang for a battery powered electric razor, which was a little more comfortable when dry shaving, but not much.  Twenty-two months in beautiful French Indo-China and no beard.

[Hawk200]

oooooo-kay, let's spell this one out. "Dry Shaving" involves a drill sergeant taking a razor and intentionally dragging it across some rough surface, say the bark of a tree. The razor is then given back to the trainee and the trainee is ordered to shave with it, perhaps while running in place, no water, no shave cream. If the trainee refuses he was held down and dry shaved. The result is very bloody. I met a guy a year or two later I was in and he told me that the reason he wore a full beard was that he was the victim of such hazing and the beard was needed to hide the scars. Was it common? Well the unit I was in was threatened with it a number of times and it seemed to be a common part of the vocabulary in the late 70's US Army, so I'd have to say that that little bit of hazing was in fact going on. Right up there with "blanket parties" which we were also routinely threatened with. Where? Try Fort Dix NJ.

OK, let's spell this out then: That was wrong. And it's not done today, and hasn't been done in a couple of decades. The military didn't teach DI's to perform those actions, but it was probably passed down when a new drill instructor experienced it before, and continued it. Much like the cases where some parents that abuse their children had been abused by their own parents.

By the way, equating (really) old military hazing practices with standing in a formation is moronic. I don't know if you're stubborn, or have some type of hangup that requires counseling, but the two are nowhere near the same.

Drill and ceremonies is an appropriate part of the military. Hazing is not appropriate, and never was. I explained the point of promotion ceremonies, but you equate it to inappropriate behaviour.

If you're equating those two things in order to avoid promotion ceremonies, what other traditions are you making attempt to avoid? And what kind of rationalization are you attempting to avoid actually following rules? If your going to avoid traditions, you're going to avoid rules too.

[capchiro]

Actually, hazing did in fact exist in the Army in the mid-60's to mid-70's that I am familiar with.  There was a fat slob that was in OCS and shouldn't have been there.  Instead of the TAC officers throwing his butt out as they should have, they rode him until he broke and resigned.  Not pretty to see a grown man crying his eyes out and blubbering.  And it took more than one or two days to do it.  The TAC's should have had their tails drug through the grinder on that one alone.  The guy should not have gotten into OCS, but, they didn't have to break his spirit and confidence to get rid of him.  He will carry that scar forever.  They could have dropped him for cause..  John, I know you have seen such things in your time in the military.  It's not pretty, it's cruel, but at the time, it seemed like that was the way life was.. So, yes, Mary Jane there is hazing in the military and there are also people that shouldn't be in it.  

[Nomex Maximus]

Actually, hazing did in fact exist in the Army in the mid-60's to mid-70's that I am familiar with.
 . . .
So, yes, Mary Jane there is hazing in the military and there are also people that shouldn't be in it.  

OK, this whole thing has strayed way far away from whether D&C is needed for CAP or any discussion about what the term "playing soldier" means.

No, of course the hazing that happened in the Army does not equal D&C. I was responding to the flat assertion that any and all military traditions are good and right and should be fully embraced by CAP. And also I was responding to the blanket denial that no hazing (practice or tradition) ever existed in the military, such assertion being laughable.

The military does not have the one and only formula for professionalism. Just because the military does something does not mean that it is the best or only good way of doing something, or even that it is useful to our PARA-military organization.

I have no problem with using military techniques, practices and traditions when they do in fact help the unit acheive its goals. And I have no problem being careful to not offend the social sensibilities of professional military personnel when I am around them by offering the appropriate customs and courtesies that they are used to.  These are all things which CAP members need to do.

"Playing soldier" is for me the UNnecessary application of military traditions to our activities that do not add value. Tradition for the sake of tradition. Whether any particular tradition adds value is open to debate. I for one can't imagine any possible way how spending time learning about and practicing drill and formations is going to be helpful to my senior (some of them in golf shirts the rest in civilian clothes, many of them elderly) squadron. That does not make me anti-military, it just makes me practical.

[Major Carrales]

"Playing soldier" is for me the UNnecessary application of military traditions to our activities that do not add value. Tradition for the sake of tradition. Whether any particular tradition adds value is open to debate. I for one can't imagine any possible way how spending time learning about and practicing drill and formations is going to be helpful to my senior (some of them in golf shirts the rest in civilian clothes, many of them elderly) squadron. That does not make me anti-military, it just makes me practical.

You have people flying in civilian clothes? 

You are not helping your cause.

Even private business require a "uniform" of sorts and certain customs.