What happened to the NCO corps in CAP?

[Hawk200]

There has been discussion of reinstating an enlisted corps. However, I started to wonder what happened to the last one. Is there anyone here that goes that far back that could tell me?

I'm not look for speculation, I'm interested in the facts. Anybody got 'em?

[SarDragon]

Whatever "NCO Corps" existed in the early days of CAP was pretty much gone when I joined in '64. During the mid to late 60s, the entire training program got a big overhaul and NCOs weren't a part of the package any more.

BillB, whatcha got on this?

[Al Sayre]

We had a few NCO's around (Group 5 in Palm Beach County FL) when I joined in '74.  They were mostly communications/maintenance guys and kept the radio gear and jeeps up and occasionally taught classes on how to use the old HF's, how to inspect and do minor vehicle maintenance etc.  BTW my first experience with a manual transmission was learning to drive a CAP jeep at age 13... 

[DNall]

Guy I mentored under for my first few years starting back in 94... he joined as a SM in the 60s, started as an Amn & worked his way thru to LtCol. There was one system in WWII, and a completely dif more professionalized version parallel to the AF from there till it was dissolved. Look at the rest of what was going on at that time as well & you'll get a more complete picture.

[Hawk200]

Guy I mentored under for my first few years starting back in 94... he joined as a SM in the 60s, started as an Amn & worked his way thru to LtCol. There was one system in WWII, and a completely dif more professionalized version parallel to the AF from there till it was dissolved. Look at the rest of what was going on at that time as well & you'll get a more complete picture.

Actually, I don't get the picture. I was born in '69, so I didn't live through it. What exactly was the picture?

[DNall]

I was born in 75 & lived thru none of it. Times are linked though to CAP taking ore control of theri own fate & moving to less training for more reward (grade) - kid in candy store.

[BillB]

Up until the late 1970's, early 80's (maybe even somewhat later) there were two tracks to get promoted. In one it was based on duty assignment and knowledge gained outside CAP (such as Flight instructor, lawyer etc).
The other track required ECI 2 (later watered down to ECI 13), Squadron Officer School, Air Command and Staff College, National Staff College (there were no Region Staff College at the time), Industrial College of the Armed Forces and Air War College. All required for LtCol. I don't remember what was required for each step of promotion, but possible someone has the 1960's regulations. So everything was by corrospondance except for National Staff College. But as you can see to be promoted to LtCol took a minimum of five years.

[Hawk200]

Up until the late 1970's, early 80's (maybe even somewhat later) there were two tracks to get promoted. In one it was based on duty assignment and knowledge gained outside CAP (such as Flight instructor, lawyer etc).
The other track required ECI 2 (later watered down to ECI 13), Squadron Officer School, Air Command and Staff College, National Staff College (there were no Region Staff College at the time), Industrial College of the Armed Forces and Air War College. All required for LtCol. I don't remember what was required for each step of promotion, but possible someone has the 1960's regulations. So everything was by corrospondance except for National Staff College. But as you can see to be promoted to LtCol took a minimum of five years.

Sounds interesting, and I hope someone does have a copy of those regs. Might be able to glean a number of good ideas from them. Anybody out there got some of those regs? I will pay for copies...

[Dragoon]

A few years ago, there was discussion at the National Boards about bringing back CAP NCOs.

Most were against it because it created an artificial two-class system, when in reality our members often move freely between "NCO" and "Officer" duties, depending on what's needed, and how much free time they had.

They seemed to believe creating a separate NCO class that was always outranked by the officer class didn't help things run more smoothly, and managed to piss off a bunch of members.

[Hawk200]

A few years ago, there was discussion at the National Boards about bringing back CAP NCOs.

Most were against it because it created an artificial two-class system, when in reality our members often move freely between "NCO" and "Officer" duties, depending on what's needed, and how much free time they had.

They seemed to believe creating a separate NCO class that was always outranked by the officer class didn't help things run more smoothly, and managed to piss off a bunch of members.

Interesting information, but I'm looking for what happened to the last program for enlisted. If there were compelling reasons for the NCO program to be scrapped the last time, I think it may be akin to shooting ourselves in the foot to attempt recreating it.

[SarDragon]

The problem is that you need to find enough people that remember that far back. I joined in '64 as a 15 yo, and NCOs had pretty much gone by the wayside even then.

[Hawk200]

The problem is that you need to find enough people that remember that far back. I joined in '64 as a 15 yo, and NCOs had pretty much gone by the wayside even then.

True. I have one member in my unit that has been in since '54, I just keep forgetting to ask him.

I'm wondering if there are any administrative messages that may be in someones closet somewhere that may shed some light.

I think that before we create an enlisted side, we need to know about the last one. Those that forget the mistakes of history and all that...

[Dragoon]

A few years ago, there was discussion at the National Boards about bringing back CAP NCOs.

Most were against it because it created an artificial two-class system, when in reality our members often move freely between "NCO" and "Officer" duties, depending on what's needed, and how much free time they had.

They seemed to believe creating a separate NCO class that was always outranked by the officer class didn't help things run more smoothly, and managed to piss off a bunch of members.

Interesting information, but I'm looking for what happened to the last program for enlisted. If there were compelling reasons for the NCO program to be scrapped the last time, I think it may be akin to shooting ourselves in the foot to attempt recreating it.

That was kind of my point.  A few of the Wing CCs (most notably, Pennsylvania) had been around back then, and used their experiences to argue against doing it again.  They found it counterproductive.

[Hawk200]

A few years ago, there was discussion at the National Boards about bringing back CAP NCOs.

Most were against it because it created an artificial two-class system, when in reality our members often move freely between "NCO" and "Officer" duties, depending on what's needed, and how much free time they had.

They seemed to believe creating a separate NCO class that was always outranked by the officer class didn't help things run more smoothly, and managed to piss off a bunch of members.

Interesting information, but I'm looking for what happened to the last program for enlisted. If there were compelling reasons for the NCO program to be scrapped the last time, I think it may be akin to shooting ourselves in the foot to attempt recreating it.

That was kind of my point.  A few of the Wing CCs (most notably, Pennsylvania) had been around back then, and used their experiences to argue against doing it again.  They found it counterproductive.

I'd be interested in hearing those experiences. Both from a historical standpoint and as lessons that would relate to our current program. I'm just concerned about repeating history's mistakes.

Should we be bothering to try to recreate an enlisted corps that will be stillborn, or else die in its infancy?

Please understand I'm not opposed to the idea of NCO's in CAP. I just want to make sure we're not condemning them to a great deal of headache.

[Trung Si Ma]

Back in the late 60's and early 70's, we had several cadets transition to senior without their Mitchell's.  They were made EM and progressed to NCO, but could not become officer's until they had completed ECI-7C (the immediate predecessor to ECI-13).  We also had some folks come back from RVN who came in at their military equivalency until completing ECI-7C.

Officer promotions above 1stLt were also based on total organizational allowances at that grade.  For example, the squadron could recommend you to group for promotion to Capt based on the squadron having an opening for a Captain;  Group would look at their total authorizations (group HQ + subordinate units) to see if they could recommend you for one of "their" openings.  It progressed upward in a similar manner.  I distinctly remember seeing a  cadet squadron (1 MAJ, 2 Capt) converted to a composite squadron (1LtCol, 2 MAJ, 5 Capt) to accomplish several promotions.  BTW - special promotions (military, mission related, former cadet officer, etc) did not count against your "actual" totals.  I also remember having to research all of my captains once to get someone promoted.

This went away in the 80's when members complained about not being able to get promoted because those that were already LtCol's weren't leaving so that others could get promoted.

[ZigZag911]

Back in the early-mid 70s (when I was a cadet officer, then a very young senior WO) there were under 21 year olds who JOINED as seniors....could not get warrant rank since they had not earned Mitchell or better.....were usually given NCO grade, level totally at squadron CC's discretion....I recall some 20 year old MSGTs....there was no specific professional development required for appointment or advancement.

What we heard when NCO grades were restricted to former NCOs (early 80s?  can't recall exactly when) was that the active duty NCO corps was VERY unhappy with CAP "NCOs", and made their displeasure known at the highest levels....whereupon CAP was 'encouraged' to revise the program

[Hawk200]

Back in the early-mid 70s (when I was a cadet officer, then a very young senior WO) there were under 21 year olds who JOINED as seniors....could not get warrant rank since they had not earned Mitchell or better.....were usually given NCO grade, level totally at squadron CC's discretion....I recall some 20 year old MSGTs....there was no specific professional development required for appointment or advancement.

What we heard when NCO grades were restricted to former NCOs (early 80s?  can't recall exactly when) was that the active duty NCO corps was VERY unhappy with CAP "NCOs", and made their displeasure known at the highest levels....whereupon CAP was 'encouraged' to revise the program

This falls under "a hah!" type of info. The history of why they're gone know.

It would also support only having prior service NCOs in our program. If you can show the military that your NCOs were trained by them we wouldn't have issues with the military having problems with our programs.

Can you imagine the Air Force saying "We don't like the NCO's you have." with our response being "But you made them NCOs in the first place, we didn't! We just honored the grade you gave them."

And with our practice of conferring equivalent officer grades on former military officers, it would be a difficult argument for them to win. I'm sure even Congress would say they have no argument.

[Dragoon]

Officer promotions above 11st Lt were also based on total organizational allowances at that grade.  For example, the squadron could recommend you to group for promotion to Capt based on the squadron having an opening for a Captain;  Group would look at their total authorizations (group HQ + subordinate units) to see if they could recommend you for one of "their" openings.  It progressed upward in a similar manner.  I distinctly remember seeing a  cadet squadron (1 MAJ, 2 Capt) converted to a composite squadron (1Lt Col, 2 MAJ, 5 Capt) to accomplish several promotions.  BTW - special promotions (military, mission related, former cadet officer, etc) did not count against your "actual" totals.  I also remember having to research all of my captains once to get someone promoted.

This went away in the 80's when members complained about not being able to get promoted because those that were already Lt Col's weren't leaving so that others could get promoted.

That last quote is critical, and has a lesson for anyone trying to rework our officer corps.

Our old system had quotas on ranks based on organizational structure just like USAF.  I've talked to several old members who made the same comment above.  The system failed because

1.  Every one felt they had a right to get promoted, even if they weren't actually doing a job requiring the rank.

and

2.  CAP members never retire - they die!  So until the Lt Col dies, he's hanging around taking up the only 0-5 slot the unit has. 

3. Officers would often step down from positions, but keep the grade, meaning someone else had to do the tough job AND not get promoted!


The worst of all worlds.  So we threw the whole thing out and let anyone be a Lt Col, whether we needed them to be or not.


IMHO, any change to our officer system has to get away from the attitude that someone "deserves" to get promoted.   It ain't an award - it's a charter to lead at a higher level.

But the change will also need to address how we handle the fact that CAP members often choose to move down the ladder and lead at a lower level.

[JamesG5223]

I was born in 75 & lived thru none of it. Times are linked though to CAP taking ore control of theri own fate & moving to less training for more reward (grade) - kid in candy store.

Good Gravy!  I joined CAP in '76.  Gads I'm old.

IMHO, the cadet program was LOTS more fun back then.  Far fewer seniors who'd been cadets so we got away with much more.  LOL.  But, in truth, the cadet program, then and now is what each individual makes of it.

[JamesG5223]

But the change will also need to address how we handle the fact that CAP members often choose to move down the ladder and lead at a lower level.

Just a comment on the above; any new program should take into account that it is in CAP's best interests to have some members move up and then down again.  While some may be frustrated by the "been there, done that" crowd, CAP benefits greatly from the presence of experienced members.  IMHO "up or out" should never be an option for CAP at any grade level.

[Dragoon]

Absolutely. How to keep the experience (even when used at a lower level) but to make it clear to even that casual observer exactly who is in charge right now.