What Happens To Civil Air Patrol IF Debt Ceiling Isn't Passed?

[RiverAux]

yes, actually.  Pretty much every single one has a State Director attending..

Sorry, but they don't count.  They are civilian employees and I'm sure that the AF would be just fine with losing every one of them if they had the opportunity to dump CAP as a whole.  They have no incentive to fight for civilian employees.  Now, if they were actual AF personnel like in the old days, it might be a bit different. 

Of course not.  That's kind of the whole point of volunteer air crews.  Paid folks are always going to cost more than we do.

Yeah, on a per flight basis CAP is cheaper.  But, the overhead of supporting the entire CAP organization for the few direct AF-support flights blows that comparison out of the water. 

I can only surmise that we have caught you on a bad day and you are not "feeling appreciated enough" by our USAF partners. 

No, its not a particularly bad day, just the result of years of CAP experience.  I once took a lot of pride in thinking that I was doing something to support the AF.  But, I just don't see much of what I, or my wing, do as having any direct benefit to the AF. 

I see this as more of a long-range problem rather than something that will come into play as part of the debt-ceiling issue.

One thing that I saw pointed out recently was that the Supreme Court decided some time ago that the President doesn't have the constitutional authority to pick and choose which bills will be paid.  If Congress has authorized something, the President has to spend the money on it.  That being the case, it puts the President in the bind as Congress has authorized a lot of spending while at the same time capping how much debt can be taken on while not providing either the money (through taxes) to pay them or authorizing taking on debt to pay them.  Talk about a catch 22.  It will be interesting to see what he does if the ceiling isn't raised. 

[Ned]

]Sorry, but they  don't count.  They are civilian employees [. . .].

Wow.  I'm kinda speechless at that one.  Now I can kinda see why uniform discussions are so important to you and the rest of CT.

Let me gently suggest that each of the 180,000 or so USAF civilians do indeed "count."

Probably more than you and me put together, in fact.

The USAF literally could not do the job of protecting your tail without their civilian employees.

Suggesting that they do not "count" or are somehow not worthy of CAP's time and efforts is just . . . I can't find the right word.  Probably some combination of arrogant and ungrateful belongs here.

After all, the last time I checked the Secretary of the Air Force is a civilian.

If you are waiting for some uniformed USAF officer to come and pay homage to you for your CAP service, maybe the Coast Guard Auxiliary is indeed a better fit for you.

Thank you for your service.

Ned Lee

[Spaceman3750]

CAP-USAF or OTS?

With selection rates of 10-20% to OTS I think that they're just as likely to jettison OTS :angel:.

Some days I wonder why on earth I didn't go to a school that has AFROTC.

[PHall]

CAP-USAF or OTS?

With selection rates of 10-20% to OTS I think that they're just as likely to jettison OTS :angel:.

Some days I wonder why on earth I didn't go to a school that has AFROTC.

The military likes OTS because it's the easiest of the three commissioning sources for them to turn on and to turn off when they need to.
The academies and ROTC are both multi-year programs and it takes a couple of years for them adjust their output.

[sarmed1]

As a non  police making AF guy (given I know more about CAP than most AF folks) I would think that cutting off/out CAP from the AF controlled funding would be more finacially difficult than keeping in.  They would have to re-assign the mission role  they give to CAP, you would still have to be paying the NG or Reserves to do it (even with the existing airframes, let alone getting new or even mothballed aiframes, training the crews, standing up new unit types etc etc,) and much of that same cost would go to if you have an active duty unit perform it. (and once you create a "new" mission, especially if there is a conus requirement, you still end up with "costs" new airframes, updates to previous airframes for the new mission, personnel increases to make sure there are enough bodies available for while others are deployed, fuel/maintainence, overhall, training schools.......
No one in the civilian community is really (long term) interested in taking on a job for free....and there arent that many volunteer aviation resources out there, so geographically you are limited and "contractors" still want money to do jobs, especially mlitary jobs.

Bang for buck CAP is still the cheapes resource for the mission USAF uses them for (I guess they could of course just drop the mission requirements and let someone else worry about funding it from their budget)

I think the operational needs outway the cadet mission in the AF eyes for sure, but CAP's I think is still cheaper than the JROTC option, plus it feeds both ends, potentially brings recruits to the USAF (both officer and enlisted) as well as feeds itself supplying personnel to CAP to perform the ES mission (both as cadets and after the transition to senior members)

And of course there is the ever infamous "60000" volunteer membership available to the USAF to use for whatever.  So they might have to pay a little room and board or food but I am sure if the AF needed a ready supply of free bodies to do something, they could call on CAP membership to do "stuff"... so keeping up the funding/management for CAP is sort of a retainer fee for having CAP there for a yet undetermined future need.

mk

[RADIOMAN015]

CAP-USAF or OTS?

With selection rates of 10-20% to OTS I think that they're just as likely to jettison OTS :angel:.

Some days I wonder why on earth I didn't go to a school that has AFROTC.

The military likes OTS because it's the easiest of the three commissioning sources for them to turn on and to turn off when they need to.
The academies and ROTC are both multi-year programs and it takes a couple of years for them adjust their output.

There's restriction on ROTC scholarships now.  They are looking for certain majors and I believe there's no longer any 4 year scholarships.  The individual must have successfully completed their first year in ROTC BEFORE any consideration is given.

Regarding OTS, you have to remember that this is a way for enlisted personnel (as well as direct commissioning programs in medical services corps, bio science corps, nurse corps) currently in the service, so you get a "very experienced" 2nd lieutenant.  Additionally OTS can recruit for specific skills/education IF they want to.

I think the AF knows what they are doing and they don't need any help from Civil Air Patrol in staffing issues.
RM 

[flyboy53]

Two other things to add to above. CAP-RAP doesn't go away. The only thing that will be effected will be Mandays or other special funding sources. Most of the personnel in this program are doing it for participation points  toward retirement. They can continue to participate and accumulate their points as necessary.

As far as state directors, remember they are corporate employees, not liaision officers as in the old days.

[RiverAux]

Let me gently suggest that each of the 180,000 or so USAF civilians do indeed "count."

Probably more than you and me put together, in fact.

Thanks for joining my side in saying that CAP isn't considered essential by the AF. 

I'm kinda speechless at that one.  Now I can kinda see why uniform discussions are so important to you and the rest of CT.

Statistically speaking I post on the uniform board less than expected.  Overall 25% of CT posts are on the uniform board while only 18% of mine are.  For comparison, 22% of your posts are on the uniform board. 

They would have to re-assign the mission role  they give to CAP, you would still have to be paying the NG or Reserves to do it (even with the existing airframes, let alone getting new or even mothballed aiframes, training the crews, standing up new unit types etc etc,) and much of that same cost would go to if you have an active duty unit perform it. (and once you create a "new" mission, especially if there is a conus requirement, you still end up with "costs" new airframes, updates to previous airframes for the new mission, personnel increases to make sure there are enough bodies available for while others are deployed, fuel/maintainence, overhall, training schools.......

Says who?  There are states now where CAP is essentially a non-factor in any ES role and that doesn't seem to cost the AF anything.  There is no mandate that the AF pay for missing airplane searches (for example).  AFRCC coordinates those searches but are not required to use AF assets.  States are ultimately responsible for doing SAR, disaster relief, etc..

As I said earlier, so long as CAP exists we are going to be a fairly efficient asset for use on some missions, but if the US was starting from scratch on their needs for Cessnas, we would not be the way to go. 

[RADIOMAN015]

]Sorry, but they  don't count.  They are civilian employees [. . .].

Wow.  I'm kinda speechless at that one.  Now I can kinda see why uniform discussions are so important to you and the rest of CT.

Let me gently suggest that each of the 180,000 or so USAF civilians do indeed "count."

Probably more than you and me put together, in fact.

The USAF literally could not do the job of protecting your tail without their civilian employees.

Suggesting that they do not "count" or are somehow not worthy of CAP's time and efforts is just . . . I can't find the right word.  Probably some combination of arrogant and ungrateful belongs here.

After all, the last time I checked the Secretary of the Air Force is a civilian.

If you are waiting for some uniformed USAF officer to come and pay homage to you for your CAP service, maybe the Coast Guard Auxiliary is indeed a better fit for you.

Thank you for your service.

Ned Lee

I think again we see the misunderstanding that some members of the Civil Air Patrol have regarding our VERY strong relationship with the AF.   They give a lot of money to CAP and do have a strong interest in all of our programs. HOWEVER, surely operation support with our aircraft (which they have bought for us) is their top priority and it is easy for them to quantify this support and the available capacity to provide more support if necessary.  The state directors who are civilian employees are very dedicated people, who actually would work even longer hours, but policy wise have been told the maximum amount of time they can work each week.

HOWEVER, I again do have any interest in how we our calculating our cost per flying hour with our aircraft.  I know in the AF all of the support costs (including aircraft maintenance supplies, equipment, & personnel costs) are the numerator for that period, with the total flying hours being the denominator.  So there would be a planning/budgeted cost per hour and than the actual flying hours and an a detailed analysis was provided to the wing staff on the fluctuations on a monthly basis during the fiscal year.   At our level I've never heard of a flying hour goal for each aircraft (nor any analysis of where we stood in relation to planned versus actual flying hours), BUT in order to come up with a estimated budgeted flying hour cost, one would have to make some assumption on total flying hours.  Granted IF an aircraft isn't flown as much than the various inspections required during the fiscal year would be less, and thus less cost.         

Also I think many of us on AF/AFRC/ANG military installations, are wondering what ever happen to CAP's involvement with the volunteers in service to the AF program (which also has the potential of helping the AF with members that are not heavily involved with aircrew and other limited ES support)    

I personally don't think it's that important that EVERY AF member know about & understand CAP.  It is very important that the decision makers down to the base level installations DO understand about CAP and what our capabilities are.   CAP has done some very good work in getting that word out :clap:

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised budget wise if we do see a reduction in our future funding.  How that will affect the total number of aircraft authorized/funded is unknown at this time.   

I think there's a risk to the organization when anyone within the organization publicly criticizes it's primary super major funding source (as in we just about go out of existence IF funding was stopped)    

RM
   

[RiverAux]

As far as state directors, remember they are corporate employees, not liaision officers as in the old days.

No, they are not CAP corporate employees.  They are civilian employees of the Air Force. 

[Major Lord]

Back to the original question, first: A default consists of the Federal Govt being unable to pay the Constitutionally required debts, i.e, interest on loans and bonds, etc. Failing to pay Social Security or other "entitlements"  would be painful, but would not constitute a "default" within the definition of the word. Second, the income to the Federal Govt on a monthly basis is perfectly adequate to pay our Constitutionally mandated debts, so a default is not really a very likely possibility, unless the President assumes dictatorial powers and pays discretionary payments before the proper debts, or the Congress rewrites, or re-interprets,  the Constitution to grant it powers it has never had ( It does this all the time, so this is not outside the limits of probability).

Not voting for a limit to the debt ceiling is not a default-it simply prohibits congress from raising the U.S. "Credit Card" limit. The solution of the Congress so far has just been to print more money, and our credit rating is suffering from our watered down and devalued money supply, not from our lack of willingness to go further into a tail spin of uncontrollable debt, although that is certainly a key indicator to show we are in serious trouble. This is somewhat akin to running up your credit card bills before filing for bankruptcy: Its a scheme with a minimal chance of survival.

So the real question is, "What happens if we can't borrow any more money?" The Government will be forced to make cuts in cash outlay. We know that the Government, as any healthy parasite will do, will take care of it's own needs first, and will not limit spending on its own power, or employee compensation and benefits. This leaves both sides deciding how the remaining funds are allocated. Traditionally, one party looks at defense spending as a big lake filled with cash that could be used for better purposes ( like social programs) and will use the threat of failing to meet the insatiable demands of the welfare state as a big stick to force an increase to the debt limit. Presidential and Congressional positions of power are purchased with the graft of taxpayer money, and our tiny little budget is hardly a blip on the radar screen of either party. ( The Government spends more on toilet seat covers)  Both parties will be looking at schemes to force a debt limit increase or alternatively,  to raid big piles of cash, like retirement accounts, IRA's etc., and to replace these with Government IOU's. Both schemes are fundamentally suicidal.

So the short answer of "What will happen to CAP? " Answer? Nothing .......at least for a while.....followed by reductions and dissolution as our economy collapses. The odds of the federal government stopping the crash by trying to steer by turning the rear-view mirror are pretty small. In the not so distant future, CAP had better be prepared to be self-funded or dissolved. Of course I could be overly optimistic......

Major Lord

[Spaceman3750]

CAP-USAF or OTS?

With selection rates of 10-20% to OTS I think that they're just as likely to jettison OTS :angel:.

Some days I wonder why on earth I didn't go to a school that has AFROTC.

The military likes OTS because it's the easiest of the three commissioning sources for them to turn on and to turn off when they need to.
The academies and ROTC are both multi-year programs and it takes a couple of years for them adjust their output.

I think the AF knows what they are doing and they don't need any help from Civil Air Patrol in staffing issues.
RM

Since neither of us were offering any "help" I'm not exactly sure where you're coming from with this one, other than trolling and pot-stirring.

[Eclipse]

Actually, CAP might get a big boost as this could trigger the apocalypse which would then likely increase the need for our services. 
Since vigilante mobs will roam the streets, we'll look like Praetorian Guard in comparison.

(The PG, BTW, did have an auxiliary as well, as evidenced by a set of scrolls recently discovered in Constantinople which featured an argument between members about whether the PGAux should be allowed to use standard scutum, or they should be accented with gray stripes.  There was also a side discussion about whether it was appropriate for PGAux to receive a discount at the local bathhouse, though there was no resolution indicated as the
bottom of the scroll was cut off with drawing of a small lock).


Fun aside, it's all irrelevant.  An 18-month extension / "compromise" will be reached at the 11th hour, just in time to avoid Financial Armageddon, but quite possibly too late to avoid collateral damage (remember that term?) with creditors, and just long enough to try and blame the whole mess on Obama for the 2012 elections.

6th graders playing games with people's lives and the world economy in the name of partisanship.  Ridiculous.

[RADIOMAN015]

So the short answer of "What will happen to CAP? " Answer? Nothing .......at least for a while.....followed by reductions and dissolution as our economy collapses. The odds of the federal government stopping the crash by trying to steer by turning the rear-view mirror are pretty small. In the not so distant future, CAP had better be prepared to be self-funded or dissolved. Of course I could be overly optimistic......

Major Lord

I hope you really meant overly pessimistic   What I think will happen is CAP will see a reduction in support and also may not see any 'fall out' money (funding transferred from other organizations within AETC that have achieved savings & the decision is made to fund some of CAP's unfunded "priority" needs).   In the past this 'fall out' money has bought vehicles & radio communications equipment.  BTW this is a VERY significant accomplishment for CAP to get this money, and proves that the AF has a great interest in supporting us. :clap:   

In my experience on active AF duty, including Chief of Resource Management, at a group level unit, I never saws the AF turn back any money at the end of the fiscal year.  Every AF major force program, by major command, & by base ALWAYS had a validated list of unfunded requirements (in our instance it was durable equipment type items) and appropriate reprogramming took place, so that the overall financial commitment matched the overall approved budget total, at the end of the fiscal year.
RM   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think again we see the misunderstanding that some members of the Civil Air Patrol have regarding our VERY strong relationship with the AF.

You must see a lot different AF people than I do.  Most of the ones I see barely know we exist, especially enlisted under E-7.

I personally don't think it's that important that EVERY AF member know about & understand CAP.  It is very important that the decision

Why not?  They have to learn about the ANG and AFRES in BMT.  There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that new Airmen could not have a segment on their Auxiliary incorporated into learning about their Reserve Components.

Indeed, and throw brickbats if you like, one could say that we are legally closer to the AF than the ANG is...we are "always Federal, all the time," whereas State Governors own their respective ANG units unless Federalized.

[Eclipse]

Why not?  They have to learn about the ANG and AFRES in BMT.  There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that new Airmen could not have a segment on their Auxiliary incorporated into learning about their Reserve Components.

Seriously - not to mention the fact that every Airman in the USAF is a potential CAP member, which would have enormous benefits for
both sides of the conversation.

[jimmydeanno]

AF members not knowing who CAP are is an issue that can be handled locally.

At my unit, I personally go to all the "Base Newcomer Orientations" where I set up a CAP table and give information/solicit membership from EVERY person that gets assigned to the base.  There really isn't a closed door to us because of the relationship we've built.  We've done really well in recruiting the SUPT grads in flight training to CAP to become O-Flight pilots, new Lt's for random stuff in the unit, etc. 

Since I started doing this about 6 months ago, our squadron has had a 200% increase in membership, consisting of all base personnel.  We also hold encampment here, so that gives us some big face time.  One of the Brig Gens on the base even decided to come check out what we were doing one day during encampment, as did the 2BW/CC and 2MG/CC.

Most units that are located on/near bases that don't have a relationship can only blame themselves.  The apathy and expectation for someone else to do everything for them gets old, and doesn't get them very far.

[cap235629]

INSTALLING COMMON SENSE IN WASHINGTON.....
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[Al Sayre]

^^^ :clap: :clap: :clap:

[JeffDG]

Well, this discussion is now officially moot (well, I guess the President could still veto it), because the Senate has voted to concur in the House amendments...it's done.