Resumption of overnight activities - any plan or discussion?

[JohhnyD]

Updated activity memos from NHQ - TL;DR masks not required for the vaxxed.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAP_CC_Memo_re_CAP_Vaccination_and__2E552DF09E270.pdf
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAP_CC_Letter_on_COVID19_RM_26_Apr__F41AFCF22B356.pdf

Cue the "you can't make me!", "discrimination!", and of course the beloved "HIPPA!" conversations.

This situation is evolving so fast it's ridiculous.

It would also be nice if there was some sort of member notice when these are updated.

Simple, we reinstated "Don't ask, don't tell." That is all. My unit is pretty much back to normal, our Wing Encampment is scheduled and filling up.

[Eclipse]

Simple, we reinstated "Don't ask, don't tell."

Good luck with that.

[Capt Thompson]

Hipaa only applies to healthcare providers, pharmacies, insurance, etc. It protects you from having your doctor or pharmacy disclose confidential info to others, and you also have a personal right not to disclose this information to anyone. What it doesn't protect you against, is an organization refusing service or admittance for not providing this info, so you don't have to disclose, but if you don't, the org has a right to tell you no.

I'm surprised, with all of the usual bureaucracy, they are leaving this on the honor system and making the disclosures voluntary. "If someone voluntarily discloses they haven't been vaccinated, they will be required to wear a mask." So what happens if someone shows for an activity, lies about their vaccination status, and gets another member sick? Sure we check temp at the beginning of an activity, but what if their symptoms don't show until day 2 of Encampment?

[JohhnyD]

Hipaa only applies to healthcare providers, pharmacies, insurance, etc. It protects you from having your doctor or pharmacy disclose confidential info to others, and you also have a personal right not to disclose this information to anyone. What it doesn't protect you against, is an organization refusing service or admittance for not providing this info, so you don't have to disclose, but if you don't, the org has a right to tell you no.

Yep, and how foolish would saying no to a member for their valid refusal to discuss medical issues with unrelated laymen?

I'm surprised, with all of the usual bureaucracy, they are leaving this on the honor system and making the disclosures voluntary. "If someone voluntarily discloses they haven't been vaccinated, they will be required to wear a mask." So what happens if someone shows for an activity, lies about their vaccination status, and gets another member sick? Sure we check temp at the beginning of an activity, but what if their symptoms don't show until day 2 of Encampment?

Compare the states with rigid mask and social distance policies versus those w/o and you will find that there is no statistically significant difference. Temparature checks are also of almost no value. Herd immunity is why we are opening up again. This crisis is done.

[JohhnyD]

Simple, we reinstated "Don't ask, don't tell."

Good luck with that.

Thanks, we have had good luck all along. Odds are we will continue to. Thanks though.

[NovemberWhiskey]

Herd immunity is why we are opening up again. This crisis is done.

Sorry, no - let's be clear here, the only change in policy relates to members who have been vaccinated. Unvaccinated members "will be required to wear masks, practice social distancing, and continue all other public health measures recommended by the CDC or state/local/tribal/territorial public health entity for the locality."

From my perspective, it is incumbent on members to respect this rather than substituting their own judgment. This is absolutely not "don't ask, don't tell" - I would consider an unvaccinated member misrepresenting their vaccination status by turning up to an event without a mask as a serious core values problem.

[NovemberWhiskey]

Yep, and how foolish would saying no to a member for their valid refusal to discuss medical issues with unrelated laymen?

No-one is being asked to disclose anything about their medical issues. "Can you confirm you are fully vaccinated against COVID-19?" requires only a yes or no answer. No-one is suggesting an interrogation about why not if the answer is no.

Also: have you never been to an activity which has required a CAPF 160 health history form?

[Jester]

It would also be nice if there was some sort of member notice when these are updated.

There's been a lot of this lately, with stuff getting sent out via Props.  I'll be the bad guy and say I tend to delete it without reading it. 

Policy doesn't need to go out to us via some semi-newsletter.

[Capt Thompson]

Yep, and how foolish would saying no to a member for their valid refusal to discuss medical issues with unrelated laymen?

No-one is being asked to disclose anything about their medical issues. "Can you confirm you are fully vaccinated against COVID-19?" requires only a yes or no answer. No-one is suggesting an interrogation about why not if the answer is no.

Also: have you never been to an activity which has required a CAPF 160 health history form?

This^^^^

We are asked to disclose medical information at most activities, and misrepresenting that data to ensure you have a better chance of attending the event is a serious integrity issue.

JohnnyD, you've heard the phrase "everyone is a safety officer?" Safety of our members includes keeping them healthy, so saying things are over, return to normal ops, hmmm I wonder why Maj Bagadonuts in running a fever and wheezing all of a sudden, must be allergies cause the virus is over......is completely negligent on our part.

[Eclipse]

Herd immunity is why we are opening up again. This crisis is done.

You might want to look up what that actually means - for example, your state is currently at less
then 40% vaxxed.

Not only is it not "over" this attitude is why Covid will be an ongoing issue for the foreseeable.

Being manageable from a health care perspective doesn't make it "done".

[TheSkyHornet]

Where I'm at a total loss is that NHQ has essentially depleted their enforcement of the Remobilization Plan templates from the first outline of the Remob Plan deployed last year.

We've resorted to individual Wings having the ability to write different policies that don't necessarily fall under a Phase 1, 2, or 3 structure as initially outlined; and instead, it has become a "submit what you've got and we'll take a look."

Not that I'm not okay with that. I like the flexibility. But I'm not really grasping why we have Remobilization Plans at all under our corporate hierarchy at this point. We might as well just say "operate within the guidance of your state/territory."

My state has some clearly different protocols than our surrounding states. I'm not sure that having a very specific guideline for activities is an effective way to (1) maintain morale, and (2) maintain efficacy in our activities when the state mandates/guidance change weekly.

At what point does NHQ forgo the whole Phased remobilization concept altogether?

[NovemberWhiskey]

You might want to look up what that actually means - for example, your state is currently at less then 40% vaxxed

... and Kootenai County (which I believe is where the squadron is located; apologies if this is wrong) is currently on an up-trend in cases, test positivity and new hospital admissions.

[Eclipse]

Where I'm at a total loss is that NHQ has essentially depleted their enforcement of the Remobilization Plan templates from the first outline of the Remob Plan deployed last year.

We've resorted to individual Wings having the ability to write different policies that don't necessarily fall under a Phase 1, 2, or 3 structure as initially outlined; and instead, it has become a "submit what you've got and we'll take a look."

Not that I'm not okay with that. I like the flexibility. But I'm not really grasping why we have Remobilization Plans at all under our corporate hierarchy at this point. We might as well just say "operate within the guidance of your state/territory."

My state has some clearly different protocols than our surrounding states. I'm not sure that having a very specific guideline for activities is an effective way to (1) maintain morale, and (2) maintain efficacy in our activities when the state mandates/guidance change weekly.

I think anyone with a couple RSRs knew this would happen.  There's far too much downpressure to
"get things moving" to hold to what were actually reasonable standards for remobilization.

It's understandable, but disappointing.

The organizaiton has lost over 30% of its membership in only 14 months, and failed to do anything
in terms of programs, plans, or even housekeeping except for online meetings that were an attempt
at a skeuomorphic representation of normalcy, and which for the most part were "meh" at best, while
patting itself on the back for some random community service work and counting it as a "mission".

The number of golden opportunities missed in regards to rebooting and / or fixing various programs and
1/2-implemented ideas is uncountable - CAP couldn't even remember to renew it's FAA exemption, I mean, seriously?

Songs will be sung, streamers will be attached, ribbons will be distributed, while the car now runs down the road
with the equivalence of 3-1/2 tires (and will probably wind up with only 3 before it's done due to "Wait THIS is CAP? NOPE!" additional attrition).

The way this remob is being "handled" reminds one of those days when Mom & Dad would come home from Montgomery ward's in late April with a new above ground pool.  The kids are so desperate to get in it they will be jumping in while it's still filling and the water is 50°, instead of waiting until everything is setup properly.

Just as on the front side, this is a situation which calls for leadership, not expedience, but the former makes people sad, and the less people you have, the less you can afford to make anyone sad.

At what point does NHQ forgo the whole Phased remobilization concept altogether?

I think from a practical perspective they already have.

[JohhnyD]

Herd immunity is why we are opening up again. This crisis is done.

You might want to look up what that actually means - for example, your state is currently at less
then 40% vaxxed.

Not only is it not "over" this attitude is why Covid will be an ongoing issue for the foreseeable.

Being manageable from a health care perspective doesn't make it "done".

And at Herd Immunity. Go play games with your command structure, we are fine.

[TheSkyHornet]

At what point does NHQ forgo the whole Phased remobilization concept altogether?

I think from a practical perspective they already have.

So I want to clearly distinguish that I am refer to policy, not practice.

There are a number of wings that have updated their remob plans/guidance which have been communicated out, but not formally attached to the NHQ website. There have been a number of CAP emails distributed, but not reflective on official pages.

12 May 2020:
CAP uses the White House Phase plan: 14 days. Phase 1 expects 15 days of Green, 45 days of Yellow, etc. Phase 2 required at least 14 successful Phase 1 metrics. Aviation precautions in Phase 2 if all members are low risk. Persons must remain 6 feet apart. Phase 3 requires at least 14 days of successful Phase 2 metrics. Masks must be worn during air operations when high risk members are present. 6-foot distancing remains.

But, as the CDC changed its guidance to utilize cohort gathering concepts, as did many states, the CAP policy is technically more restrictive.

And, now, just this week, we're shifting to a new memorandum which contracts the Phase 2 and Phase 3 protocol, but essentially replaces it without saying so. Yet, Wings must still produce Phase 2 and 3 plans.


Really, at this point, I think the case should be that an official declaration should come from NHQ that we are no longer utilizing the phased reopening plan, and, instead, resort to state guidance and/or CDC policy, whichever is the most restrictive.

It's just an opinion, obviously. But it's increasingly difficult to operate under a published CAP plan, emailed CAP guidance which amends the plan that doesn't get communicated to all personnel, and have national-level or state-level government guidance which makes the preceding two outdated.


An item that came to mind recently was a social media post by CAP on official pages where none of the members had face masks on during an encounter with external persons. So I went to the Remob Page just to see that Wing's Remob Plan, and it was very clear: face masks are required. I went to the state guidance: face masks are required. Yet, scuttlebutt had it that there was internal guidance shared within that wing that they didn't need to wear masks anymore because the CDC said so.

Well, here we are debating the "fairness doctrine" again of all things impacting all people in different locations under ever-changing rules with concrete-etched protocols that don't reflect what internal policies are conveying.

So back to my question: Why publish any of it? Why have a plan? Why not just point to the existing guidance from a government source and leave it at that?


I was very much in favor of the phased plan when it first rolled out since it gave that little light of hope and provided some actual guidance. But, as we've seen, guidance changes based on circumstance and qualifiable research, not just national or even local statistics. And right there on the official CAP Remob Website, I'm reading outdated content (pulling it live off the website as I type this and crosschecking it for accuracy).

Heck, one wing just has a bunch of X's for their Phase 2 plan.


Do we maybe overdo it with regulations here when these are policies that were supposed to reflective of external mandates within our AOR?

[Eclipse]

And at Herd Immunity. Go play games with your command structure, we are fine.

[JohhnyD]

The vaccinated are not at even close to 50% and yet:

US States Start Seeing Days of Zero COVID-19 Deaths https://www.ntd.com/us-states-start-seeing-days-of-zero-covid-19-deaths_615881.html via @news_ntd

That means HERD IMMUNITY is at hand. Thank God!

[Capt Thompson]

Some States start seeing days with 0 deaths doesn't mean herd immunity is at hand, but you keep living in your fantasy world while my wife goes to work each day at a hospital that has 5 separate floors filled with COVID patients that would love a little of that herd immunity magic dust you're passing out.

[jeders]

The vaccinated are not at even close to 50% and yet:

US States Start Seeing Days of Zero COVID-19 Deaths https://www.ntd.com/us-states-start-seeing-days-of-zero-covid-19-deaths_615881.html via @news_ntd

That means HERD IMMUNITY is at hand. Thank God!

Based on that logic, we had herd immunity locally last April, WOW! [/sarcasm]

[JohhnyD]

The vaccinated are not at even close to 50% and yet:

US States Start Seeing Days of Zero COVID-19 Deaths https://www.ntd.com/us-states-start-seeing-days-of-zero-covid-19-deaths_615881.html via @news_ntd

That means HERD IMMUNITY is at hand. Thank God!

Based on that logic, we had herd immunity locally last April, WOW! [/sarcasm]

LOL, that is not logic, that is sophistry. One gets to HERD IMMUNITY after the pandemic starts, not before. But nice try and disrespect.