Cadet Transportation

[UWONGO2]

My squadron is really starting to have issues with transporting cadets to special events. While we do have a squadron van, we still end up with 15-20 kids that need transportation. Obviously there are events where we can tell the kids they have to self-transport, but there are a number of events that due to the location or distance require us to transport everybody together.

We have borrowed a van from a neighboring squadron, but it's not always available. We're in the process of having a couple of our senior members get the paperwork filed to be able to use their POVs. Does anybody have any ideas on options we're not thinking of?

[Eclipse]

What's wrong with self-transport?

Most units don't even have access to a CAP vehicle.  It yours does, you are ahead of the game.
Very few similar cadet-style organizations even have a fleet of vehicles.

We're in the process of having a couple of our senior members get the paperwork filed to be able to use their POVs.

What paperwork?  This must be wing-specific as there are no regulations regarding POV use during non-ES activities, and they are clear that to-from
is the member's responsibility.

[jimmydeanno]

Self-transport is alright, but when you get into the hours long trips it becomes a bit less feasable/practical.  "Hey parents, we're doing a trip to the Houston Space Center, it's only a 7 hour drive from here and you'll be expected to drive your cadet there and back."

It seems to me, though, that the best answer would be to plan a bit better for when the second van is available. 

[LGM30GMCC]

If your squadron is really this active and using the van that much (Yay!  :clap:) consider submitting a justification/request for a second van. There is no reason 2 vehicles can't be at the same location.

[EMT-83]

What paperwork?  This must be wing-specific as there are no regulations regarding POV use during non-ES activities, and they are clear that to-from is the member's responsibility.

I'd have to agree that there is some paperwork involved. From 77-1:

Use of POVs for transportation to and from CAP meetings, encampments and other activities is solely at the risk of the individual CAP members and their passengers. CAP assumes no right of control, liability or responsibility for such transportation. Unit commanders must approve, in writing, justification for use of a POV as official CAP transportation, when adequate COVs are not available for such purposes. Approval is limited to unusual circumstances where lack of transportation or capability for CAP members adversely impacts important activities. Prior to granting such permission, the member must produce evidence of insurance coverage, state inspection (if required) and registration. Written approval for use of a POV will be maintained on file in accordance with CAPR 10-2, Files Maintenance and Records Disposition.

[lordmonar]

What's wrong with self-transport?

Most units don't even have access to a CAP vehicle.  It yours does, you are ahead of the game.
Very few similar cadet-style organizations even have a fleet of vehicles.

We're in the process of having a couple of our senior members get the paperwork filed to be able to use their POVs.

What paperwork?  This must be wing-specific as there are no regulations regarding POV use during non-ES activities, and they are clear that to-from
is the member's responsibility.

Uhhh....there is paper involved.

b. Use of POVs for transportation to and from CAP meetings, encampments and other activities is solely at the risk of the individual CAP members and their passengers. CAP assumes no right of control, liability or responsibility for such transportation. Unit commanders must approve, in writing, justification for use of a POV as official CAP transportation, when adequate COVs are not available for such purposes. Approval is limited to unusual circumstances where lack of transportation or capability for CAP members adversely impacts important activities. Prior to granting such permission, the member must produce evidence of insurance coverage, state inspection (if required) and registration. Written approval for use of a POV will be maintained on file in accordance with CAPR 10-2, Files Maintenance and Records Disposition.

[Eclipse]

I knew when I was typing that someone would quote 77-1.

As you see above, to / from is exempt and CAP explicitly excludes itself from any involvement.

POV's only require prior approval when used as official transportation - good luck defining that outside mission use, and to/from an activity, in my opinion
does not constitute "official transportation", even if you're meeting up at the unit HQ to then caravan.

For ES it is much easier - getting to mission base is your problem, driving a sortie would be "official", but if I use my POV to get to an encampment
and then drive from our ship to the MCPON to meet parents is that "official transportation"?   What about if I throw mag signs on the doors?
CAP has no damage liability risk and all authorization for my POV's use on base comes from the Navy, so good luck with that.

I will grant that if I had an accident, CAP would most likely be enjoined to any lawsuits, at least initially, but would I expect CAP to pay for damage on a vehicle used in the above way?

I would say that the only time a POV becomes official transportation, outside of ES, is when a Unit CC explicitly defines it as such, otherwise it is all to / from, even when for convenience sake people meet in a group.

Even a 108 isn't the delineation, since members get to/from reimbursements all the time and then park their POV's for the mission itself.

If, for whatever reason, you feel you need approval and can't get it, then just meet at the activity and move on.  Either way it is a simple memo or email.

[lordmonar]

No problem.

We have prior approval for alots of things.  In fact our VCO has every member submit his vehicle information just so we have our duck in a row.

We transport our cadets all the time.  We have to drive them from the main gate to the squadron building.  We use them to transport them to weapons training course (also pre approved by the wing CC).  We use them to transport our cadet to and from our PT area.

It is not really hard...and remember it is squadron commander approval.  So if you are doing a "let's take the cadets to the water park/disney land/museeum/SAREX/Encampmen" it is a no brainer.

ES is much harder to get approval....because that requires WING approval and IC approval PRIOR to the event (you can't sign in your POV into IMU if it is not on the approved list).  If you don't sign it in you can't get reimbursed.

We do use the "everyone just find you own way to the event" plan as much as we can.....but sometimes that is just not possible.

As far as "meeting at the squadron to caravan"....that is okay.....but once YOU the squadron CC or responsible officer start arranging rides for individual cadets....they are on CAP time and it requires pre approval.

Just keep this in mind....because that is the way parents are thinking.....I dropped my kid off at CAP....he got hurt in Capt Dumbjohn's car going to the SAREX......CAP better pay!

Same thing with my car.  I show up to go some place and put any cadet into my vehicle......I am on CAP time from that point on!  You know that I will be sending the bill to CAP if something bad happens.

[EMT-83]

POV's only require prior approval when used as official transportation - good luck defining that outside mission use, and to/from an activity, in my opinion does not constitute "official transportation", even if you're meeting up at the unit HQ to then caravan.

I will never concur with this point of view - to separate travel from the middle of an activity, and claim it's not official?

Let's see how this plays out:

The group meets at the squadron, signs in and receives safety briefing. "Official"

Everyone arrives at activity, planned events take place. "Official"

Travel between those two points. "Unofficial"

Right.

[Eclipse]

Parents can think whatever they want, so can anyone else, that is basically irrelevant when the lawsuits start flying.

As to CAP paying for your POV if it is damaged during an activity, I wish you luck...

[Eclipse]

POV's only require prior approval when used as official transportation - good luck defining that outside mission use, and to/from an activity, in my opinion does not constitute "official transportation", even if you're meeting up at the unit HQ to then caravan.

I will never concur with this point of view - to separate travel from the middle of an activity, and claim it's not official?

Let's see how this plays out:

The group meets at the squadron, signs in and receives safety briefing. "Official"

Everyone arrives at activity, planned events take place. "Official"

Travel between those two points. "Unofficial"

Right.

So a lunch run is "official transportation"?

To your point, if it is an issue, no one signs in at the meeting place or does anything "official" until they get to the activity.  I will grant it is a
silly hair to split, but this is the fine line NHQ has chosen to draw.

[Spaceman3750]

No problem.

We have prior approval for alots of things.  In fact our VCO has every member submit his vehicle information just so we have our duck in a row.

We transport our cadets all the time.  We have to drive them from the main gate to the squadron building.  We use them to transport them to weapons training course (also pre approved by the wing CC).  We use them to transport our cadet to and from our PT area.

It is not really hard...and remember it is squadron commander approval.  So if you are doing a "let's take the cadets to the water park/disney land/museeum/SAREX/Encampmen" it is a no brainer.

ES is much harder to get approval....because that requires WING approval and IC approval PRIOR to the event (you can't sign in your POV into IMU if it is not on the approved list).  If you don't sign it in you can't get reimbursed.

We do use the "everyone just find you own way to the event" plan as much as we can.....but sometimes that is just not possible.

As far as "meeting at the squadron to caravan"....that is okay.....but once YOU the squadron CC or responsible officer start arranging rides for individual cadets....they are on CAP time and it requires pre approval.

Just keep this in mind....because that is the way parents are thinking.....I dropped my kid off at CAP....he got hurt in Capt Dumbjohn's car going to the SAREX......CAP better pay!

Same thing with my car.  I show up to go some place and put any cadet into my vehicle......I am on CAP time from that point on!  You know that I will be sending the bill to CAP if something bad happens.

Neither the 60-3 or the 77-1 require wing approval in order to use a POV for ES (at least that I can find). All that is required is the appropriate unit commander's approval IAW 77-1. If you are a WMU wing (which if you use IMU you probably are to some degree) this is as simple as inputting your information and having your squadron commander or designee check the approval box following verification of required documents.

[RADIOMAN015]

My squadron is really starting to have issues with transporting cadets to special events. While we do have a squadron van, we still end up with 15-20 kids that need transportation. Obviously there are events where we can tell the kids they have to self-transport, but there are a number of events that due to the location or distance require us to transport everybody together.

We have borrowed a van from a neighboring squadron, but it's not always available. We're in the process of having a couple of our senior members get the paperwork filed to be able to use their POVs. Does anybody have any ideas on options we're not thinking of?

Well I think your best bet is to look to a local bus company (perhaps school buses unused) and see what kind of rate you can get.  I agree that it's more fun for a unit to travel as a unit in one vehicle rather than a convoy.  I would run the costs and see what it come up per head.   Maybe there might be a bus company that would provide a donation in kind on a few occasions.   Of course as you know even the 15 pax vans now are 12 pax, because allegedly unsafe to put the other 3 pax in the back.   

BTW when I was a cadet in the late 1960's my squadron actually had excess AF property type small bus, probably fit about 30 or so people on it.  That was great going down the road in one unit!!!

Of course those days are gone (outlawed by regulations), and if you have more than 12 people going anywhere in your squadron today, you will have to get additional transportation.  I guess CAP's way of thinking is that those 15 pax (12 pax authorized capabilities) are what is normally needed.

Although your squadron can't own it's own bus take a look at this website for example of some options:
http://www.busbank.com/

RM     

[UWONGO2]

Thanks everyone for the responses. We also feel that if we instruct parents to drop their kids off at the squadron to get a ride to an event, then we're responsible for them. As such, we follow 77-1.