When do I get to be a 2LT?

[Nomex Maximus]

I am not clear - I am a new senior member and a pilot (will take the form 5 checkride within two weeks) and I have completed all the initial training to be a scanner. I am not clear should I be eligible for promotion now, or do I have to wait for my six month anniversary?

[Becks]

Have you completed Level 1? Wait 6 months after that

[RiverAux]

If he is a private pilot he is eligible for promotion to 2nd Lt immediately after completing Level 1 and CPPT.  CAPR 35-5 Section 22. 

[Flying Pig]

....and, if your a Commercial or Instrument rated pilot you rate 1st Lt.  If your a CFI or ATP you get Capt.

YAHOOOOOOO

[Nomex Maximus]

If he is a private pilot he is eligible for promotion to 2nd Lt immediately after completing Level 1 and CPPT.  CAPR 35-5 Section 22. 

That's what I thought. I mentioned this to my squadron commander but I think he is just going to wait until the six months is up in October. I get the impression that most people take a year or so to get qualified in ES, so I am sorting rushing things getting qualified in three months.  

[Becks]

Aaaand if the Sqd commander feels you are ready to be a 2Lt, he does not have to give you any advanced placement.

[capchiro]

What is with all of the new guys wanting rank immediately?  It would be nice if they showed their intentions first.  And while we are at it, There is a retired real Air Force General that works with cadets and the glider program becaue he loves to fly, he loves the program and he is full of enthusiasm and the cadets love him.  His rank in the CAP, Lt.Col. of course.  Now, if anybody has a gripe it's him.  So quit your bellyaching and enjoy the program or go away..   

[Nomex Maximus]

What is with all of the new guys wanting rank immediately?  . . . So quit your bellyaching and enjoy the program or go away..   

WWWWEEEELLLLLLL EXXXXXXX-UUUUUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSEEEEEEE MMMMMMEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

I guess the regs are just there for show.

[SARMedTech]

What is with all of the new guys wanting rank immediately?  . . . So quit your bellyaching and enjoy the program or go away..   

WWWWEEEELLLLLLL EXXXXXXX-UUUUUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSEEEEEEE MMMMMMEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

I guess the regs are just there for show.

Actually theyre not. Have you been in six months yet? The way I read the regs, thats just as much a requirement as fulfilling the quals. We have a few new SMs that came in when I did that are asking the same kinds of questions: can I wear the command scarf, when do i make 2d Lt...just go with it man...if you joined for the rank and the trappings of rank, you wont last very long because from what Ive heard, after you make 1st Lt. you could be waiting around awhile. Ive been told that being an EMT might push me up the chain a little faster, but I am still but a lowly SM, slogging my way through quals and quite enjoying myself. Theres alot to learn...I personally got into CAP because of my passion for ES and SAR and the like and am happy to have a place to learn it all, in a supportive environment that doesnt cost me an arm and a leg (if you think CAP can get expensive, try to get the kinds of qualifications you are getting in CAP through another organization...it will take you forever and cost you a mint).

PS-

I dont mean to be a hard a*& about it, its just that there are alot of folks I know that are more concerned with getting the trappings of rank and command scarves and patches then when they are truly qualified to hold rank. It just gets a little tiring. You havent been in that long..enjoy the ride, GI.

[capchiro]

Oh, by the way, you forgot the "c" in excuse..

[star1151]

What is with all of the new guys wanting rank immediately?   

I didn't get that he wanted it immediately, but was just asking what the actual timeline was.  As another person who just joined, it seems a little confusing to me, too.  Personally, as long as I get to be around small airplanes, I don't care, but I hate the uncertainty of how this whole thing works.

[MIKE]

IIRC therre is a nice little chart in CAPR 50-17 that you should check out.

[RiverAux]

Actually theyre not. Have you been in six months yet? The way I read the regs, thats just as much a requirement as fulfilling the quals.

Please read the regulation I cited before making such statements.  He is not required to wait 6 months for one of these special initial grade advancements.  Just complete Level 1 and CPPT.  Now, his squadron commander is not required to recommend him for the initial promotion, but I see no need to wait.  

[capchiro]

It's up to the squadron commander's discretion as to whether the member should be promoted or not.  Most commander's don't feel like they have a good grasp as to the member's qualifications and quality in as few as 6-12 meetings, each of maybe 2 hours or so.  Plus the regulations also require that a member be working at his specialty and contributing to the squadron prior to promotion.  Most commanders have had experience with flash in the pan new members that come in and look really, really good in the beginning and then turn out to be duds that want to stand around and hanger fly throughout the meeting.  There is nothing like giving some young hotshot CFI or Ham or whatever (and no slam intended) Captain rank and then having the Wing commander calling and wanting to know who this guy is and why he is causing problems with the local PX, Officer's Club, Police Department, local FBO, and yet I could go on.  Believe it or not, this is a well organized organization and the rules have been this way for a long time and rightly so.  You might get someone to tell you about the story of CAP and the National Commander that promoted himself to two star general illegally and caused everyone to have to wear maroon epaulets for punishment for years. 

[RiverAux]

This fellow is going to get his form 5 in a few weeks and is already in scanner training.  To my mind he is showing an interest in the program and should be promoted.  If he was just attending meetings, not saying a word, and then going home, yes, then it might be justifiable not to give him the initial grade appointment. 

What else do you expect a new member to be doing to "earn" his commander's recommendation for the promotion he is qualified for according to the regs?

Personally, I say we have way too many initial grade appointment opportunities, but there is no justifiable reason to deny them while they are available in the regs.

[Camas]

I've posted this elsewhere but many squadron commanders will be looking for enthusiasm, dedication to the program, teamwork and attitude.  Show your commander you have these qualities and I'm sure he'll promote you in due time.  May I safely assume you've done your Level I training including CPPT and OPSEC?

You've made no mention of your ES qualifications but you might do well to consider getting your GES testing behind you along with SET as well.  Ask your ES officer for assistance.  Then you'll want to become a mission pilot; I won't bore you with the details here.  There are a number of resources available for you to utilize including CAPR 60-1 and 60-3.

[RiverAux]

Did you read his post?  He has completed the scanner initial requirements, which means he has completed GES, which means he has completed Level 1 and CPPT.

[capchiro]

Again, it is a commander's call and the commander in recommending him for promotion is saying that he vouches for the quality of the member and his ability to act as an officer.  By stating that he has completed his initial scanner training, he is not actually stating anything.  Initial scanner training maybe nothing more than the first part, which is the GES test.  He may or may not have gone beyond that.  By saying that he has completed Level 1 and CPPT, means very little since these are now online and not necessarily at the squadron.  By stating that he will be taking his Form 5 check ride in a couple of weeks means nothing also.  He may have the ride scheduled and he may or may not pass it.  He may get weathered out and not get to reschedule for a couple of months.  Most commanders are a little leary of someone that is too gung ho, and sometimes for a lot of good reasons.  The first thing any member in CAP needs to learn is a modicum of patience.  CAP is manned by volunteers and things take time.  OTS in the AF takes 90 days of heavy training and constant evaluation by the training personnel.  I think most commanders desire a period of time to evaluate new personnel before they put their John Hancock on the line.  There is a lot to learn in CAP to be functional.  There are many forms to be filled out everytime an AC goes up.  Since we are not full time, it takes time.   Let the system work..     

[Nomex Maximus]

Oh, by the way, you forgot the "c" in excuse..

If you listen to how Steve Martin said it, he said it without the "c".

[capchiro]

What, are we two wild and crazy guys or what??

[Nomex Maximus]

I don't really care about rank at all. I was just asking because I had read the regs and it seems like to me that I am entitled to it. You know, it makes a big difference in the paycheck I get each week. And also, I am EXPECTING to be SALUTED by cadets and the new SMs that haven't getten promoted yet.

(Just out of curiosity, does anyone in CAP salute at all? I been here four months and haven't seen one yet.)

To answer questions, I am signed off and qualified as a scanner. And I passed the airplane written test. Woohoo, next week I start observer training and will be going on a wing mission this month or next to get that done as well. I even passed the Yeager tests just for fun one night without studying. And, I helped wash the airplane just before it got an award for being the cleanest plane at the wing mission. Heck, maybe I can help the MG with any tests he is working on...

[capchiro]

Nomex, as a senior member, or officer, as National wants you to be referred to, you outrank the highest ranking cadet and if you are in uniform, they owe you a salute.  You in turn owe salutes to all other senior members that outrank you.  So hang around the cadets and point out that they are to salute you.  Good luck with your CAP career and if there is anything you need, there is somebody on this board that can help, usually.

[arajca]

I don't really care about rank at all. I was just asking because I had read the regs and it seems like to me that I am entitled to it.

Actually, you aren't entitled to it. It is an OPTION your commander has. Many units/groups/wings are not giving advanced grade out of the gate. In your case - and this is only a guess - your commander may be waiting until you PASS your Form 5, since your advanced promotion is based on your pilot status.

And also, I am EXPECTING to be SALUTED by cadets and the new SMs that haven't getten promoted yet.

(Just out of curiosity, does anyone in CAP salute at all? I been here four months and haven't seen one yet.)

In many units, seniors do not salute each other not due to a lack of respect, just a lack of the military culture of saluting. Heck, my CAPRAP (AFRes Maj) blushes when myself (CAP Capt) and other seniors salute her. Typically though, when cadets are around, seniors do salute other seniors.  I don't know if you currently salute CAP officers now, but if not, don't expect any officers to salute you.

To answer questions, I am signed off and qualified as a scanner. And I passed the airplane written test. Woohoo, next week I start observer training and will be going on a wing mission this month or next to get that done as well. I even passed the Yeager tests just for fun one night without studying. And, I helped wash the airplane just before it got an award for being the cleanest plane at the wing mission.

Congradulations. However, none of those are cause for advanced promotions. See my point above.

Heck, maybe I can help the MG with any tests he is working on...

Let's not go there.

[Ford73Diesel]

And also, I am EXPECTING to be SALUTED by cadets and the new SMs that haven't getten promoted yet.

Are you a senior member without grade? CAPR 35-5 does not define SMWOG as an officer, so I would'nt expect any salutes. If you are a 2d Lt, than they have to salute you.

[RiverAux]

Okay, so the guy is a qualified scanner.... can he now get the INITIAL grade appointment he is qualified for?  Are you going to make him wait some arbitrary time period? 

Like I said, I don't like a lot of these initial grade appointments, but no one has shown any good reason not to give it to somebody who rates it, especially someone who is apparently really going after it -- I can't think of many new members in my time in CAP who have gotten ES-rated that quickly.

[SARMedTech]

I have been told  that because of my status as an EMT, that when I actually get a grade instead of "SM" that I could go past 2d Lt and right to 1st Lt. Is anyone familiar with this happening or if it is regulation. I have completed and am completing alot of testing in the coming weeks and just wondered. I know there are special promotion circumstances for professionals whose skills might be off some use to CAP. I cant find the regs, but any info would be appreciated.

[AlphaSigOU]

I have been told  that because of my status as an EMT, that when I actually get a grade instead of "SM" that I could go past 2d Lt and right to 1st Lt. Is anyone familiar with this happening or if it is regulation. I have completed and am completing alot of testing in the coming weeks and just wondered. I know there are special promotion circumstances for professionals whose skills might be off some use to CAP. I cant find the regs, but any info would be appreciated.

CAPR 160-1 covers the CAP Health Services Program, and which medical fields are considered eligible to become part of the program. EMT (and by inference, paramedic) is one of them.

CAPR 35-5, Section E, para 25c covers Health Services appointments to advanced grades in CAP:

25. Initial Appointment. Upon completion of Level I and CPPT, unit commanders may recommend health service personnel, legal officers, professional educators serving as aerospace education officers and financial professionals serving as finance officers for an appropriate grade commensurate with their CAP position (see figure 6) and professional qualifications as outlined below. Members applying and qualifying for the CAP chaplaincy will be appointed to the appropriate grade upon acceptance by National Headquarters. NOTE: Members in these categories who are members of the Armed Forces are also eligible for consideration to higher grades equivalent to their Armed Forces grade under the provision of paragraph 15 of this regulation. However in no case will the grade exceed lieutenant colonel.

c. Health Service Personnel. Upon successful completion of Level I and CPPT, unit commanders may initiate a CAPF 2 on health service personnel recommending appointment to an appropriate grade, as outlined below. The member's qualifications will be evaluated by the wing health service program officer, who will provide his or her comments and recommendations to the wing commander prior to approval. (Specific qualifications for medical personnel are outlined in CAPR 160-1.)

1) Second Lieutenant. Licensed practical or vocational nurse, paramedic, or other health technician.

2) First Lieutenant. Registered nurse, physician assistant or other health professional with a bachelors or masters degree as outlined in CAPR 160-1.

3) Captain. Licensed physician, dentist, or other health professional with an earned doctorate degree in a health care discipline.

4) Major. Licensed physician appointed a unit health service program officer in accordance with CAPR 160-1 who has served 1 year time-in-grade as a captain.

As an EMT you could be appointed a 2d Lt. As a Health Services Officer (the title 'Medical Officer' and 'Nurse Officer' applies only to licensed doctors and nurses), you can get promoted only by serving time-in-grade, without the  professional development requirements. However, I would recommend that the professional development not be skipped.

Section E, para 24 of CAPR 35-3:

24. Training Requirements. Professional personnel must complete Level I and CPPT prior to appointment to CAP officer grade. Health Service personnel, legal officers, professional educators serving as aerospace education officers and financial professionals serving as finance officers are exempt from all other training requirements prescribed for promotion to additional grades.

Initial appointment must be recommended by the squadron commander and approved by the wing health services officer. Hope this helps.

[Camas]

This fellow is going to get his form 5 in a few weeks and is already in scanner training. 

Did you read his post?  He has completed the scanner initial requirements, which means he has completed GES, which means he has completed Level 1 and CPPT.

Sorry, I missed that.  Looks like he should be promoted.  Lots of people have done far less for promotions.

[Major Lord]

Perhaps an interim appointment as an Admiral of Nebraska to tide (no pun intended) him over? Any brand new member showing this much enthusiasm is to be encouraged!

Capt. Lord

[AlphaSigOU]

Perhaps an interim appointment as an Admiral of Nebraska to tide (no pun intended) him over? Any brand new member showing this much enthusiasm is to be encouraged!

Capt. Lord

Yea, that would be nice... but the Guv'ner of the Great State of Nebraska shut the 'back door' in which we non-residents could go get us an Admiral of the Nebraska Navy commission! (Got mine before they shut the door.)

[arajca]

Allow me to quote the relevant section of CAPR 35-5:

e. The member must also be certified by the unit commander as contributing his or her special skills to the mission of CAP and performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended.

So, until you are a CAP pilot, you are not eligible for advanced promotion under the "Mission Related Skills" section of CAPR 35-5. That is the section that relates to pilots receiving advanced grade.

I am aware that para 22 says:

However, immediately upon completion of Level I and CPPT, the unit commander may recommend the member for appointment to a grade commensurate with his or her special skill, as outlined in figure 5.

But keep in mind the para 21 establishes whether you are eligible for that consideration. If you don't meet the eligibility requirements, para 22 does not apply.

[RiverAux]

Yes, a commander that wanted to be a jerk about it could use that first part to delay the promotion, but why would they really want to, especially for a promotion only to 2nd Lt, which comes to the average member without having to do a darn thing after six months?  But, a pilot could be contributing their skills to CAP without having to be a CAP Pilot.  Using their knowledge there are a great variety of ways they could be putting it to use in CAP without having to fly. 

These promotions are there to attract people with skills we need into CAP and we shouldn't be looking for ways not to give them out. 

Should we not give the doctors their promotion until they actually provide some sort of medical service to CAP?  Lawyers? 

As long as these opportunities are there, they should be used.  And I'm saying that as someone who has earned my rank the hardway without any shortcuts at all. 

[arajca]

Yes, a commander that wanted to be a jerk about it could use that first part to delay the promotion, but why would they really want to, especially for a promotion only to 2nd Lt, which comes to the average member without having to do a darn thing after six months?  But, a pilot could be contributing their skills to CAP without having to be a CAP Pilot.  Using their knowledge there are a great variety of ways they could be putting it to use in CAP without having to fly.

What is the problem? The OP doesn't meet the requirements. He is not flying a/c for CAP. That is what the pilot skills are for. Yes, there are additional uses for his knowledge, but the function of a pilot is to fly planes. By his own admission, he hasn't taken his CAPF 5 flight, so he cannot fly CAP aircraft.

These promotions are there to attract people with skills we need into CAP and we shouldn't be looking for ways not to give them out.

Yes, and they each have specific requirements that must be met. If someone doesn't meet the requirements, they don't get promoted. Simple. CAPR 35-5 lists the requirements for this. 

Should we not give the doctors their promotion until they actually provide some sort of medical service to CAP?  Lawyers?

Your mixing fruit again. Section D covers Mission Related Skills, i.e. pilot, comm, ground school instructor. Section E covers Professional Appointments and promotions, i.e. health services, lawyers, chaplain, ad nauseum. 

As long as these opportunities are there, they should be used.

As long as they meet the requirements.

And I'm saying that as someone who has earned my rank the hardway without any shortcuts at all. 

Same here.

[RiverAux]

Okay, lets stick with the mission related skills INITIAL grade appointment requirements.  Under your theory, since even rated mechanics are not going to be doing repair work on our aircraft, then they should not receive the initial grade appointments they are due? 

I understand where you're coming from, but in my opinon if the CAP reg gods had intended to follow your model, it would have been very easy to say that pilots don't get the rank they are qualified for unless they have obtained the CAP Pilot rating.  That isn't complicated to say.  Since they didn't say it, I'm certainly not going to assume that is what they meant. 

There is only a general requirement that people be contributing their skills to the organization and none of them, even the advancement for radio operators is tied to specific CAP mission qualifications. 

[star1151]

Under your theory, since even rated mechanics are not going to be doing repair work on our aircraft, then they should not receive the initial grade appointments they are due?   

I was going to ask the same question.  I was told I qualified for 1st Lt. right after completing all the required training because I'm an A&P....even though I wouldn't be using that rating to help out CAP.  Why would that even be an option for A&P's if the powers that be wanted the rating to actually be used?  Or am I missing something?

(It's sort of a moot point in my case because I'm also a CFI and will be using those skills)

[jb512]

As an EMT you could be appointed a 2d Lt. As a Health Services Officer (the title 'Medical Officer' and 'Nurse Officer' applies only to licensed doctors and nurses), you can get promoted only by serving time-in-grade, without the  professional development requirements. However, I would recommend that the professional development not be skipped.

Actually, to be specific, just being an EMT won't get him any rank.  It clearly specifies that he would have to be a paramedic to get 2d Lt.

[arajca]

As an EMT you could be appointed a 2d Lt. As a Health Services Officer (the title 'Medical Officer' and 'Nurse Officer' applies only to licensed doctors and nurses), you can get promoted only by serving time-in-grade, without the  professional development requirements. However, I would recommend that the professional development not be skipped.

Actually, to be specific, just being an EMT won't get him any rank.  It clearly specifies that he would have to be a paramedic to get 2d Lt.

Actually, EMT gets 2d Lt. Source: CAPR 35-5, Figure 6.

Licensed practical or vocational nurse, paramedic, EMT
or other health technician

emphasis mine

[arajca]

Okay, lets stick with the mission related skills INITIAL grade appointment requirements.  Under your theory, since even rated mechanics are not going to be doing repair work on our aircraft, then they should not receive the initial grade appointments they are due? 

I understand where you're coming from, but in my opinon if the CAP reg gods had intended to follow your model, it would have been very easy to say that pilots don't get the rank they are qualified for unless they have obtained the CAP Pilot rating.  That isn't complicated to say.  Since they didn't say it, I'm certainly not going to assume that is what they meant. 

There is only a general requirement that people be contributing their skills to the organization and none of them, even the advancement for radio operators is tied to specific CAP mission qualifications. 

IMHO, the maintence promotions are a holdover from when CAP did maintain its own a/c and should be done away with. And, with the change in focus for the Comm track from a technical background to a management function, the same should be done with the Comm promotion.

[RiverAux]

Well, now you're talking about the way things SHOULD be and not what the regulations lay out at the moment. 

[brasda91]

Most commander's don't feel like they have a good grasp as to the member's qualifications and quality in as few as 6-12 meetings 

  Doesn't your squadron meet weekly?  That would put his attendance around 24 mtgs +/-.

[SARMedTech]

As an EMT you could be appointed a 2d Lt. As a Health Services Officer (the title 'Medical Officer' and 'Nurse Officer' applies only to licensed doctors and nurses), you can get promoted only by serving time-in-grade, without the  professional development requirements. However, I would recommend that the professional development not be skipped.

Actually, to be specific, just being an EMT won't get him any rank.  It clearly specifies that he would have to be a paramedic to get 2d Lt.

Actually, EMT gets 2d Lt. Source: CAPR 35-5, Figure 6.

Licensed practical or vocational nurse, paramedic, EMT
or other health technician

emphasis mine

Thanks for that arajca. I understood and believed I had read the regs as you pointed them out and aside from that, even if it didnt say EMT, it does say other health related technician which is a broad enough regulation that it could take in  lab techs, CNAs (now called patient care techs), xray techs and the list goes on. Aside from that, yet again, it has been explained to me that as far as the "rating" for an EMT goes an EMT-Basic is technician rated, an intermediate (a classification within EMS which will soon go the way of the dodo bird since it is only a stones throw away from being a paramedic) would be senior and a paramedic would be master rating. Not to get bling crazy, but from what I can tell, the EMS insignia, whether cloth or metal, is the same for all three levels of EMTs. Ive heard somewhere that there are different blings, but have yet to see only the one which I currently have, both in the cloth and metal version. If there are others out there say as there are for GT that start to incorporate stars, etc, I have yet to see one. We have a paramedic in my unit and he wears the same insignia I do

[brasda91]

I have been told  that because of my status as an EMT, that when I actually get a grade instead of "SM" that I could go past 2d Lt and right to 1st Lt. Is anyone familiar with this happening or if it is regulation. I have completed and am completing alot of testing in the coming weeks and just wondered. I know there are special promotion circumstances for professionals whose skills might be off some use to CAP. I cant find the regs, but any info would be appreciated.

Health Service Professional, (CAPR 160-1), 2d Lt
Sixty hours of study beyond high school
Licensed practical or vocational nurse, paramedic, EMT
or other health technician

[SARMedTech]

As an EMT you could be appointed a 2d Lt. As a Health Services Officer (the title 'Medical Officer' and 'Nurse Officer' applies only to licensed doctors and nurses), you can get promoted only by serving time-in-grade, without the  professional development requirements. However, I would recommend that the professional development not be skipped.

Actually, to be specific, just being an EMT won't get him any rank.  It clearly specifies that he would have to be a paramedic to get 2d Lt.

Furthermore, since a Paramedic is an EMT (NREMT-P or EMT-P) it would be very hard for CAP to distinguish that one "flavor" of EMT gets the grade and the others dont. As I say, Intermediate according to all sources, is on its way out, but you didnt even mention that.

[jb512]

As an EMT you could be appointed a 2d Lt. As a Health Services Officer (the title 'Medical Officer' and 'Nurse Officer' applies only to licensed doctors and nurses), you can get promoted only by serving time-in-grade, without the  professional development requirements. However, I would recommend that the professional development not be skipped.

Actually, to be specific, just being an EMT won't get him any rank.  It clearly specifies that he would have to be a paramedic to get 2d Lt.

Actually, EMT gets 2d Lt. Source: CAPR 35-5, Figure 6.

Licensed practical or vocational nurse, paramedic, EMT
or other health technician

emphasis mine

That's a different quote than the one above... my mistake then.  The quote above doesn't have "EMT" in it, but it does say "other health technician....

My bad.

[RiverAux]

Typically senior squadrons or the senior side of a composite squadron only meet twice a month. 

[capchiro]

Actually, our squadron does meet weekly and what I was referring to was a member that had only come to 6-12 meetings, ie, 1 1/2 to 3 months, and the commander not knowing him well enough to endorse or recommend him for promotion.  24 meetings would equal 6 months and that is usually when these promotions go through and that is about the time that most commanders feel comfortable enough to endorse their promotions.  Promotions always begin with the unit commander and until he feels comfortable with the endorsement/recommendation, it won't happen.  No one on this board knows anything other than what this member has relayed to us.  His commander may have information that we are not privy to or even just a "gut feeling" about it.  That is his job and National/Wing trusts him, so it is not enough for us to second guess his reasoning and try to stir this member into some type of frenzy about how he can push his way around with the Reg's.  Even if he were right, and he made a big enough stink about his promotion, he would certainly classify himself in the circle of CAP and it wouldn't be forgotten.  My advice, calm down, and if you have a question about the Reg's and your promotion, calmly go to your commander and ask him to explain his reasoning or his interpretation of the Reg's to you.  DON'T go to him and tell him that the "boys" on Captalk said he is wrong and he has to promote you..

[RogueLeader]

Doing said "CapTalk boys said so" would likely cause him to "lose" your promotion paperwork or "forget" to put it in online. If he does, there is really nothing you can do about it.

[SARMedTech]

Doing said "CapTalk boys said so" would likely cause him to "lose" your promotion paperwork or "forget" to put it in online. If he does, there is really nothing you can do about it.

And one would likely find themselves looking at planes taking off and landing rather than flying them. Never P.O. the Commanding Officer or the Supply Guy.

[Nomex Maximus]

Oh, by the way... I am also trained as an EMT. Yep, yessirree bob, got my EMT training at Western Illinois University in 1980. Never used it, but I got it. Ready to use it anytime.

[Nomex Maximus]

...and now that I think about it, I have 47 semester hours of seminary completed from way back when... I could be a Chaplain too!

...and if I just got around to reading one or two of the books on my shelf here I could probably pass the General Radiotelephone Operator FCC test and qualify as a radio technician. But that would actually take work...

[SARMedTech]

Oh, by the way... I am also trained as an EMT. Yep, yessirree bob, got my EMT training at Western Illinois University in 1980. Never used it, but I got it. Ready to use it anytime.

Do you live in IL? Have you maintained your EMT currency both at the state and National Registry Level? Im sorry you didnt get the answer you were looking for but there really is no reason to get snippy. Especially in the presence of those of us who do that job everyday and every weekend with a gun on our hips. Be patient. Youll get your little bars soon enough.

[Nomex Maximus]

Oh, by the way... I am also trained as an EMT. Yep, yessirree bob, got my EMT training at Western Illinois University in 1980. Never used it, but I got it. Ready to use it anytime.

Do you live in IL? Have you maintained your EMT currency both at the state and National Registry Level? Im sorry you didnt get the answer you were looking for but there really is no reason to get snippy. Especially in the presence of those of us who do that job everyday and every weekend with a gun on our hips. Be patient. Youll get your little bars soon enough.

[HAHAFUNNYJOKE]

IT's A YOKE!!! You KNOW a YOLK!!! I AM PULLIN YOU ALLS LEGS. GIT IT? HEHE HEHE hehe... *ahem*

Really, the whole thread was just for fun... I'm not here to wear a uniform or to act like I'm Real Military. I am just here to try and be ready help out in the next emergency. The whole rank thing is sort of a curious novelty to me... in my unit, we have a squadron commander who is a captain, and his mother (also in the unit) outranks him and did, in fact, teach him to fly. And then there are the fifty year members and the LTCs... and everyone wears the most causal uniform - the golf shirts.

I am just saying, since I had to go and read all these fine manuals that it seemed to me that I should get a 2LT because I am a pilot. As for being committed enough, well, the guy who joined with me three months ago has not been seen in the last two months. So I think I have shown a reasonable amount of committment.

"a gun on your hip"? Oh, well, I also was a cop too once a long time ago... I know I don't get a promotion for that, but could I at least maybe get an affectionate kiss on the forehead?

[/HAHAFUNNYJOKE]

[RiverAux]

Seems to me that we've got a few charter members of the good-old boys club here who feel threatened when new people join the unit.  Typically these sorts of folks do everything they can to keep the new people out of the loop, including not informing them of opportunities open to them and "forgetting" to tell them about items in the regulations that would benefit the new member.   

Making a big deal over giving somebody (who meets the specific requirements in the regs) a 2LT promotion a few months ahead of time in order to make sure they are "worthy" is right out of the playbook.  The hallmark of the GOB is making the new member jump through hoops that aren't actually in the regs as a way of throwing barriers in their path.   

[Nomex Maximus]

Riveraux -

I think it's just that my squadron commander either doesn't know about the reg, or does not agree with my interpretation, or -most likely- just doesn't have the time to do the extra paperwork and doesn't see the need.

[jb512]

Oh, by the way... I am also trained as an EMT. Yep, yessirree bob, got my EMT training at Western Illinois University in 1980. Never used it, but I got it. Ready to use it anytime.

Do you live in IL? Have you maintained your EMT currency both at the state and National Registry Level? Im sorry you didnt get the answer you were looking for but there really is no reason to get snippy. Especially in the presence of those of us who do that job everyday and every weekend with a gun on our hips. Be patient. Youll get your little bars soon enough.

[HAHAFUNNYJOKE]

IT's A YOKE!!! You KNOW a YOLK!!! I AM PULLIN YOU ALLS LEGS. GIT IT? HEHE HEHE hehe... *ahem*

Really, the whole thread was just for fun... I'm not here to wear a uniform or to act like I'm Real Military. I am just here to try and be ready help out in the next emergency. The whole rank thing is sort of a curious novelty to me... in my unit, we have a squadron commander who is a captain, and his mother (also in the unit) outranks him and did, in fact, teach him to fly. And then there are the fifty year members and the LTCs... and everyone wears the most causal uniform - the golf shirts.

I am just saying, since I had to go and read all these fine manuals that it seemed to me that I should get a 2LT because I am a pilot. As for being committed enough, well, the guy who joined with me three months ago has not been seen in the last two months. So I think I have shown a reasonable amount of committment.

"a gun on your hip"? Oh, well, I also was a cop too once a long time ago...

[/HAHAFUNNYJOKE]

Oh, don't let this place get to ya.  I understand your anxiousness to promote, as I was the same way with my placement because of prior cadet service.  I think that special skills brought to the organization and the recognition of them is to be commended, not brushed off.

We are not the Real Military (hereafter referred to as "RM") and although we can wear a RM uniform, our rank does not signify the same thing.  What it does show is a person's qualifications and position in our organization.  No one (although there are exceptions) is trying to act like they are something that they aren't.

Don't be afraid to submit for something that you qualify for because it's there for a reason.  Similar to the RM, we have rank to maintain structure and a chain of command and it works quite well.  I'm quite proud of my "little bars" because they mean something to me.

[SARMedTech]

Oh, by the way... I am also trained as an EMT. Yep, yessirree bob, got my EMT training at Western Illinois University in 1980. Never used it, but I got it. Ready to use it anytime.

Do you live in IL? Have you maintained your EMT currency both at the state and National Registry Level? Im sorry you didnt get the answer you were looking for but there really is no reason to get snippy. Especially in the presence of those of us who do that job everyday and every weekend with a gun on our hips. Be patient. Youll get your little bars soon enough.

[HAHAFUNNYJOKE]

IT's A YOKE!!! You KNOW a YOLK!!! I AM PULLIN YOU ALLS LEGS. GIT IT? HEHE HEHE hehe... *ahem*

Really, the whole thread was just for fun... I'm not here to wear a uniform or to act like I'm Real Military. I am just here to try and be ready help out in the next emergency. The whole rank thing is sort of a curious novelty to me... in my unit, we have a squadron commander who is a captain, and his mother (also in the unit) outranks him and did, in fact, teach him to fly. And then there are the fifty year members and the LTCs... and everyone wears the most causal uniform - the golf shirts.

I am just saying, since I had to go and read all these fine manuals that it seemed to me that I should get a 2LT because I am a pilot. As for being committed enough, well, the guy who joined with me three months ago has not been seen in the last two months. So I think I have shown a reasonable amount of committment.

"a gun on your hip"? Oh, well, I also was a cop too once a long time ago... I know I don't get a promotion for that, but could I at least maybe get an affectionate kiss on the forehead?

[/HAHAFUNNYJOKE]

Just to be clear, though I said I carry a gun, I am not a LEO. I work for a private security company and am  in the process of working with them to start a TacMed asset for their company. My dad was a LEO for 37 years and I dont want to not say anything and by my act of omission have people think I am passing myself off as a LEO. I am an armed EMT. Just wanted to be clear so people didnt think I was holding myself out as something I am not. I have however decided that my new duty weapon will be the Springfield XD .40. Ive read about it, put a few rounds through it, several boxes actually, and am in love with it. So as soon as I get the cash or the agency coughs up the dough, I will be getting one. A sweet little shooter. Not to hijack but I predict, as someone else did to me today, that the XD will replace the Glock as the LE weapon of choice as well it should since it is far superior in every aspect.

[sandman]

Seems to me that we've got a few charter members of the good-old boys club here who feel threatened when new people join the unit.  Typically these sorts of folks do everything they can to keep the new people out of the loop, including not informing them of opportunities open to them and "forgetting" to tell them about items in the regulations that would benefit the new member.   

Making a big deal over giving somebody (who meets the specific requirements in the regs) a 2LT promotion a few months ahead of time in order to make sure they are "worthy" is right out of the playbook.  The hallmark of the GOB is making the new member jump through hoops that aren't actually in the regs as a way of throwing barriers in their path.   

Good points!

There really should be no reason to hold back a "promotion" if the member is authorized by regs to be advanced to that grade save for outright disrespect to a commander.

Those commanders who desire to dely an advancement really are in effect telling a potentially good volunteer to go find another volunteer organization to join. Membership declines and recruitment / retention suffers.

Who cares if you advance someone to Lt Col? Your position as a 2 Lt squadron Commander trumps that Lt Col anyway....realize that you (the O-1 squadron commander, for example) are in command. It's about positional authority.

I feel that we have too much of a hang up on wearing rank insignia. My rank insignia is a federal commission which outranks TP himself, your rank insignia....is meaningless... in the real world

So, squadron commanders, look at your people, find out who's qualified for promotion, and immediatly put in the paperwork...don't be one of the "good 'ol boys" who wants to be revered, feared, and saluted just because you have the power to hold back a promotion because you feel like it or you get a kick out of making someone suffer. Remember, the higher the rank (or position) you achieve, the more of a servant you should become... :angel:

[sandman]

Doing said "CapTalk boys said so" would likely cause him to "lose" your promotion paperwork or "forget" to put it in online. If he does, there is really nothing you can do about it.

And one would likely find themselves looking at planes taking off and landing rather than flying them. Never P.O. the Commanding Officer or the Supply Guy.

Make copies, document all related conversations, then discuss with wing...region...national...then real Air Force liason and ensure that the squadron commander gets fired.

Call me and I will show you how easy it has been to fire a squadron commander for stupid stuff like this.

The key is document, document, document. Ensure that your arguement is rock solid. It's also helpful if you're not a real snot to everybody

Same goes for Suppo....

[arajca]

Doing said "CapTalk boys said so" would likely cause him to "lose" your promotion paperwork or "forget" to put it in online. If he does, there is really nothing you can do about it.

And one would likely find themselves looking at planes taking off and landing rather than flying them. Never P.O. the Commanding Officer or the Supply Guy.

Make copies, document all related conversations, then discuss with wing...region...national...then real Air Force liason and ensure that the squadron commander gets fired.

Call me and I will show you how easy it has been to fire a squadron commander for stupid stuff like this.

The key is document, document, document. Ensure that your arguement is rock solid. It's also helpful if you're not a real snot to everybody

Same goes for Suppo....

And by the time you do all this, your six months will be up and you'll be a 2d Lt anyway. Pursuing it farther will get you labeled as a troublemaker and since you are so familiar with the regs, the PTB will ensure everything you do or want is 100% reg compliant. The little things that some folks let slide  - such a new pilot/observer wearing wings before they are properly authorized - won't slide. 

[SARMedTech]

Doing said "CapTalk boys said so" would likely cause him to "lose" your promotion paperwork or "forget" to put it in online. If he does, there is really nothing you can do about it.

And one would likely find themselves looking at planes taking off and landing rather than flying them. Never P.O. the Commanding Officer or the Supply Guy.

Make copies, document all related conversations, then discuss with wing...region...national...then real Air Force liason and ensure that the squadron commander gets fired.

Call me and I will show you how easy it has been to fire a squadron commander for stupid stuff like this.

The key is document, document, document. Ensure that your arguement is rock solid. It's also helpful if you're not a real snot to everybody

Same goes for Suppo....

And by the time you do all this, your six months will be up and you'll be a 2d Lt anyway. Pursuing it farther will get you labeled as a troublemaker and since you are so familiar with the regs, the PTB will ensure everything you do or want is 100% reg compliant. The little things that some folks let slide  - such a new pilot/observer wearing wings before they are properly authorized - won't slide. 

In EMS, its called "getting the stink." Once you get the reputation for being the one that comes in, wants to do things outside the regs, wants to get all high speed, you find yourself transporting old ladies in a wheelchair van so they can get their groceries. As I said before, my biggest concern would be getting all of your pilot quals, etc and then going to the absolute basement-bottom of the mission pilot list, watching all the other patient, non-pushy pilots fly.

[floridacyclist]

I don't think this guy (the CC) is as evil as some of you have made him out to be. In my experience as Personnel Officer, many CCs simply have no clue how important it is to stay on top of your people's accomplishments. They either underestimate the importance of a little recognition or expect folks to literally know, understand and follow the regs that state that "the member will complete a CAPF2a and forward it up the chain of command". of course this doesn't take into account many newbie's inexperience or reluctance to put in for their own stuff (something that you eventually get over for most of the smaller things like awards and promotions).

Have you tried talking to your Personnel Officer about this yet? They should be handling it if the CC isn't - all you need the CC for is a signature anyway although he can then choose to submit it the rest of the way electronically if it is a special promotion or through E-Services if it is a duty-performance promotion.

[Jolt]

What is with all of the new guys wanting rank immediately?  It would be nice if they showed their intentions first.  And while we are at it, There is a retired real Air Force General that works with cadets and the glider program because he loves to fly, he loves the program and he is full of enthusiasm and the cadets love him.  His rank in the CAP, Lt.Col. of course.  Now, if anybody has a gripe it's him.  So quit your bellyaching and enjoy the program or go away..   

Ooh!  I know him!  Great guy.  I only flew with him once for a quick lesson in the Schweitzer.  If I'm thinking of the same AF Maj Gen, then he does tend to wear his AF uniform even for CAP functions and there are even some people that think he's a CAP Maj Gen because no one ever calls him "colonel."

[Ford73Diesel]

"General" would be a more appropriate term for him. He should be, as a retired officer, afforded all approiate customs and courtesies.


The OHWG CC said we can call him Captain Winters (his AF rank when he retired) or Colonel Winters (his CAP rank)

[SarDragon]

I think you should call him whatever he requests or allows you to call him. Makes everybody happy.

[Major Carrales]

As a Squadron Commander, I try to keep up with everyone's accomplishments...there are times I miss things, but it gets rectified pretty fast.

If I may be so bold, the reason I put in "advanced promotions" is because I have always felt it represents training.  A Pilot has significant training outside of CAP to warrant an advancement.  So has an EMT and even a teacher.

A lisc. EMT has lots of course work and experience.  A Teacher has a degree and experience in the given field.  The Mechanic is also skilled and has been trained.  The Finance Officer who is a CPA has lots of education.  It represents, to me, all the training CAP can't give...but that CAP is given from the community of new membership.

If they are qualified to merit the awarding of a higher rank...by virture of school, training or experience, then they should get it.  After all, Rank in CAP comes from professional development.  It is also notable to mention that they are stuck at that rank until they backfill the CAP criteria to rise in Rank. 

[SARMedTech]

I know we've beaten the whole professional promotion thing to death, but I came across this and thought it might offer some definitive answers...with pictures and everything. I also remember that there was a discussion on another thread about whether CAP officers should be required to have college degrees or at least some college. While its not required, apparently going to college can be of some assistance in getting promoted. My questions here is, if i am a health care professional, have a college degree, do i still have to wait 6 months for promotion under the professional promotion standards. Maybe I am just missing it on this little chart thingy. Anyway...here it is.

Sorry about the 2 attachments. I was trying to get it to actually post the chart and not just the link and now it wont let me take the second link off. Not sure if PDFs cannot be posted in the body of a thread or not. But if you follow the chart, it pretty clearly spells out the requirements for professional promotion.

[arajca]

If you read the secondary title, you'll see this un-official, but well done, chart refers you back to CAPR 35-5 for details.

[SARMedTech]

If you read the secondary title, you'll see this un-official, but well done, chart refers you back to CAPR 35-5 for details.

I guess one of the reasons that I posted it was that I was getting a little weary of hearing people talk about how they felt it was unfair that people with certain professions or licenses get promoted ahead of others. Im sorry if so and so that wants to be a Capt isnt an EMT or a teacher or lawyer, but thems the regs, so....and to be clear, when my professional promotion comes through, I intend to  go back and "back fill" all the necessary requirements that anyone else of equal rank would have to have done. We have a professionally promoted Capt in my Squad who didnt do this (or at least not all of it) and he couldnt find regs with two hands and a flashlight.  I think its a valuable idea that people with professional skills and licensures valuable to CAP gain promotions, but not only would I not really want a "hollow" grade, I would not feel as though I were able to live up the the requirements of being a 1st Lt or Capt simply because of my job. It would be very difficult for me if I were chosen for a command to carry out my duties if I had just taken the professional promotion and not fulfilled all the level requirements and other quals to be either a 1st Lt or Capt. So while  professional promotion may be in the works for me, anyone who thinks they are unfair can rest assured that there is at least one officer (and I expect more than one) who got his promotion because of his job but also because he fulfilled the requirements and got there the "right way." But I do so look forward to that "chicken foot" scarf. 

[AlphaSigOU]

If you read the secondary title, you'll see this un-official, but well done, chart refers you back to CAPR 35-5 for details.

And in case anyone's wondering, I'm the poor, dumb SOB who created the above visual aid.

[SARMedTech]

If you read the secondary title, you'll see this un-official, but well done, chart refers you back to CAPR 35-5 for details.

Im at a bit of a disadvantage because I cant see the chart since it didnt come with my attachment, but I talked to a woman who I believe was names Julie or Julia at Maxwell today. She was answering the "promotions phone" She stated that she had seen the chart and that it was incorrect. She said that under professional promotion, an EMT who complete levels one can go straight to 2d Lt without the six month wait. However, she said that the chart is incorrect in that it states that if the same EMT had a college degree, completed level one that he would not be made a 1st Lt as the chart I believe states.  She said, in essence, that the degree makes no difference in the professional appointment of the EMT..he still only goes to 2d Lt.