How often is a 2b issued and what exactally warrants one?

[RogueLeader]

Room 101...

Is that like Area 51?

[Major Carrales]

Room 101...

Is that like Area 51?

Altered from Orwell's 1984...

"You once asked me, Aaron, what was in room 101. I think you know. Everyone does. The thing that is in room 101... is the worst thing in the world. "

[Eclipse]

Room 101...

Is that like Area 51?

Altered from Orwell's 1984...

"You once asked me, Aaron, what was in room 101. I think you know. Everyone does. The thing that is in room 101... is the worst thing in the world. "

I've trained myself to see as many lights / fingers as necessary, on command.  You'd be amazed how handy that can be these days...

[ColonelJack]

"And if Maxwell says two and two is five ... ?"

Jack

[RiverAux]

I only have 2nd hand knowledge of 1 senior member getting a 2b and somewhat more reliable knowledge of cadets getting them, primarily either for essentially dropping out of the program or becoming incredibly disruptive to the program (talking back to senior members, not following orders, etc.).  Don't recall it being a long drawn out process.  I guess it could be if the 2b was appealed. 

[mdickinson]

Whatever happened to CAPF 2c (non-renewal)? I always figured a form 2c was probably used more often - for instance,
- When someone has made a real nuisance of themselves, but is not such a threat to the unit that they merit a 2b
- A cadet sponsor member whose cadet is no longer a member
- etc.

Now that form 2c no longer exists, is it even possible to simply non-renew someone, or is a 2b the only option?

[JohnKachenmeister]

If a person has demonstrated through his behavior that he should not remain as a cadet or officer in CAP, we OWE it to the organization togo through the 2b process.

Otherwise, he simply joins another group or wing.

[mdickinson]

I told the CC (privately, politely, and respectfully) that he was in violation of regs, and which regs he was violating.  His response?  A 90-day suspension from unit activities -- for me -- in writing, copy to wing, copy to region, information copy to National HQ.  (Seems he didn't like being told these things.) 

And if I said one more word -- one more word -- about "those [darn] regulations," I would be 2b'd.

Wow, that's incredible - I had a very similar experience once! I had the same (private and polite) conversation with a squadron commander in [a wing I used to participate in]. I explained all the regs that were being broken (sending out 15 year old cadets with no 101 cards for ES duties that require a minimum age of 18; awarding "FIND" ribbons to ground teams for finding a practice ELT during a SAREX(!), etc.) and was met with a similar response.

In my case, the squadron commander being corrected was a bit more crafty. Instead of writing a direct memo like your commander did, she told me that I should butt out of her squadron's affairs - but that I was welcome to participate in the next SAREX, where she would be MC. (Yes, it was that long ago, it was still called MC.)

When I showed up at the SAREX to participate as a mission pilot, the MC sent me up in a plane with no DF, accompanied by an "observer trainee" and a "scanner trainee" from her squadron (neither of whom, it turned out, had any training or 101Ts to serve in those positions), with instructions to search a grid in a far corner of the state. The "observer trainee," having no radio experience at all, was an exceptionally poor communicator, and our search of the grid yielded nothing. We could hear reports from another CAP aircraft, 30 miles away, DFing the one practice ELT that was out that day. Having no DF, I did a few wing nulls to see where it was coming from, and reported back an accurate bearing.

After the sortie, the sqdn commander wrote to the wing CC, saying I was clearly unqualified as a mission pilot, because

• My communications with the ground team were very poor
• I had failed to fly to the practice ELT (30 miles away from my assigned grid), and
• My scanner "had felt nauseous" during the wing-null steep turns (what unqualified, untrained scanner wouldn't?)

What a brilliant set-up! Sure enough, I was summoned to wing HQ a few days later, where the wing CC (not a pilot) suspended my 101 card and flying privileges. It took a form 5 ride, then a form 91 ride (both at my own expense), then three months of waiting, to get them back!

I steered clear of that squadron after that...and soon after, found another wing where participation would be less fraught with danger. The squadron commander served several more years before moving up to a wing staff position...

Just writing about it now, 8 years later, gives me the willies. 

[Pumbaa]

Funny you just posted Malcom, I was scanning your site a few minutes ago...

BTW what ever happened to that squadron commander?

[ZigZag911]

The 2C (non-renewal) was eliminated, I think 6 or 7 years back, because it was too open to misuse (grudges, personal dislike -- I know, who could imagine CAP officers behaving thus?!?)....also, I think the JAG types were concerned that it was too difficult to defend if it came to legal action, since the reasons were often vague at best.

During my multi-year tenure as group CC I 2Bed exactly two officers, for finance irregularities, the last straw in a series of regulation transgressions by a squadron CC......my predecessor had terminated a couple of people, generally for outrageous actions subsequent to counseling and other attempts at remedial action...these included a hazing incident.

2Bs, in my view, are our last resort, to be used only when someone becomes so disruptive to the organization, unit and mission that they are depriving others of their rights/benefits.

With cadets especially we tried every alternative approach first....in line with regulations, which describe disciplinary procedures as needing to be "progressive" (start small, build up).

With regard to the 2Bed senior showing up & disrupting unit meetings 'as a parent', we had that happen a couple of times -- it usually stopped very quickly when the state's dim view of trespassing (and our willingness to have it enforced) was discussed.

Parents/guardians were always welcome to observe -- or, if unhappy with how things were going, to take their cadet home at any time and address the matter later with the unit commander or group HQ.

Interference, however, was never tolerated.

[sardak]

I was A party, not THE, party to four 2b actions because of my staff function and/or being in the wrong place at the wrong time.  In all four it was the wing commander that brought the action against a wing member who was not a member of wing staff.

All of them were ES related.  One was a case of bad judgement that was deemed to be a major safety issue on an AFAM.  One involved questionable paperwork and funds.   One was deemed gross insubordination involving a government requested mission and a particular ES asset.  One was repeated failure to follow directions and an assortment of other issues that collected over time.

Only the last case resulted in a member actually being 2b'd.  Two of the others were "overturned" during the appeal process and one was abandoned due to the recognition, once everyone cooled off, that there wasn't much of a case.

In one case I was called to present evidence by both the 2b-ee (member) and the 2b-er (wing).  That was interesting to say the least.

Mike

[Major Carrales]

In terms of a 2b, is there a "hearing" that accompanies it? 

As an aside...

I got a mental image just now of a panel of service coat clad Wing Level Field Grade Officers, with a Service Coat clad Captain serving paperwork to the panel and a Service Coat clad "2b-ee" sitting in a center seat....er, or was thay an episode of Star Trek?

[IceNine]

I too would be extremely reluctant to 2B especially a cadet because that also has the potential to surface if they choose to serve our country.  There is always the option of the CC sending a letter to nationals saying they would like a non-renewal issued.  Which basically means that commander is no longer accepting that person as a member but does not feel it necessary for them to be black listed.  Sort of a thanks but no thanks gesture and the member then has the option of finding a CC that will accept their membership or they are terminated and not allowed to renew until they do.  I cannot find the documentation for this but I have been apart of one such case

[Al Sayre]

In terms of a 2b, is there a "hearing" that accompanies it? 

As an aside...

I got a mental image just now of a panel of service coat clad Wing Level Field Grade Officers, with a Service Coat clad Captain serving paperwork to the panel and a Service Coat clad "2b-ee" sitting in a center seat....er, or was thay an episode of Star Trek?

I think that was The Caine Mutiny

[JohnKachenmeister]

In terms of a 2b, is there a "hearing" that accompanies it? 

As an aside...

I got a mental image just now of a panel of service coat clad Wing Level Field Grade Officers, with a Service Coat clad Captain serving paperwork to the panel and a Service Coat clad "2b-ee" sitting in a center seat....er, or was thay an episode of Star Trek?

I think that was The Caine Mutiny

35-3 is the regulation that governs it, and yes, the proposed member has a right to a hearing.  The regulation specifies who must conduct the hearing, but it generally is the next higher level of command.  A minimum of 3 officers equal or senior in grade to the proposed member must hear the evidence and make a recommendation to the commander.

If you are on a group or wing staff and have the duty of arranging this, I suggest having 5 officers, just in case the proposed member wants to challenge one or two for cause.  (Colonel Smith is my ex-wife's cousin, and never liked me...")  You can follow summary procedures, or the commander can appoint an officer to represent CAP in the presentation of evidence. 

The proposed officer can have legal counsel, military counsel, or may represent himself.  He has the right to cross examine witnesses, but there are no other established procedures or rules of evidence.  That means both sides can get away with introducing hearsay.  Testimony must be sworn, and the President of the Board in empowered to administer an oath.

[Major Carrales]

Kach, how often is this done?  Do CAP Officers and Cadets realize they have this option?  In my nearly ten years in CAP I have never heard of such a hearing haing been assembled in my area.

[RiverAux]

35-3 (6) says that not all members who get a 2b have the appeal option.  Only cadets who got it for misconduct or senior members who got it "for cause".  So a cadet discharged for missing 3 consequtive meetings (which is a listed cause for 2b) without an excuse does not get an appeal hearing.  So most causes for cadet 2bs can't be appealed though most senior member "causes" can be appealed. 

[arajca]

I too would be extremely reluctant to 2B especially a cadet because that also has the potential to surface if they choose to serve our country.  There is always the option of the CC sending a letter to nationals saying they would like a non-renewal issued.  Which basically means that commander is no longer accepting that person as a member but does not feel it necessary for them to be black listed.  Sort of a thanks but no thanks gesture and the member then has the option of finding a CC that will accept their membership or they are terminated and not allowed to renew until they do.  I cannot find the documentation for this but I have been apart of one such case

Actually, the "non-renewal option" has been removed. According to unofficial sources, commanders were submitting non-renewal actions without notifying the member. Since there was a time frame for appeals, very few of these non-renewed members were able to appeal because appeal period had expired.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Kach, how often is this done?  Do CAP Officers and Cadets realize they have this option?  In my nearly ten years in CAP I have never heard of such a hearing haing been assembled in my area.

Since you don't actually lose any money, most officers do not appeal an elimination action. 

[Westernslope]

I am sure there are members on this board who at some point or another messed up as a kid. It is part of being a kid.

I think unless it is a very extreme case, a 2B for a cadet is almost an abuse of power. Yes, the Commander has the option based on the regs but often the misbehavior is due to immaturity and absenteeism is due to a gazillion other things. Often as the kids grow up and learn a few life lessons, they can make outstanding leaders  

IMO it would be better to schedule a joint conference with the parents and the Chaplain to tell the cadet that this is not the right program for them. Then just ask them to leave. Most kids do not stay where they are not wanted. If they still want to stay, this is a good time to lay down the ground rules and explain what punitive actions can be taken if behavior does not improve.