Minutes

[arajca]

The Draft Minutes of the March 2007 NB meeting are up. Read'em here.

[RogueLeader]

Interesting, Thanks.

[ColonelJack]

Good stuff there (I watched a lot of the show).  One question I didn't understand, though, regarding the National Vice Commander's grade.  If I read it correctly, the Nat/CV gets to keep the star, but Gen. Courter asked that the decision be applied after her term is up.  Gen. Pineda wanted it to go into effect immediately, though, and that makes me wonder -- does Gen. Courter get to keep her star after her term as CV is over?  Or did I read it bass-ackwards?

Jack

[TankerT]

Good stuff there (I watched a lot of the show).  One question I didn't understand, though, regarding the National Vice Commander's grade.  If I read it correctly, the Nat/CV gets to keep the star, but Gen. Courter asked that the decision be applied after her term is up.  Gen. Pineda wanted it to go into effect immediately, though, and that makes me wonder -- does Gen. Courter get to keep her star after her term as CV is over?  Or did I read it bass-ackwards?

Jack

She gets to keep her star after her term as CV is over, IF the Air Force approves this change to the regulation.

[Monty]

Good stuff there (I watched a lot of the show).  One question I didn't understand, though, regarding the National Vice Commander's grade.  If I read it correctly, the Nat/CV gets to keep the star, but Gen. Courter asked that the decision be applied after her term is up.  Gen. Pineda wanted it to go into effect immediately, though, and that makes me wonder -- does Gen. Courter get to keep her star after her term as CV is over?  Or did I read it bass-ackwards?

Jack

I'd guess that she did that so as to professionally present herself as a non-biased person in the matter.

If she says she doesn't want it to apply to her, then she can act one way or the other objectively.

Privately?  She might want it (why not?)  But professionally?  That was the right thing to do.  Keeps personal ambitions from professional progression separate.

If Maj Gen Pineda made the same act with respect to future terms, then we might think that his desire for the job to have succeeding terms is in the best interests of the role, and not for just the man.

Maybe he does advocate it for CAP CCs after him...don't know, haven't followed.

[ddelaney103]

Good stuff there (I watched a lot of the show).  One question I didn't understand, though, regarding the National Vice Commander's grade.  If I read it correctly, the Nat/CV gets to keep the star, but Gen. Courter asked that the decision be applied after her term is up.  Gen. Pineda wanted it to go into effect immediately, though, and that makes me wonder -- does Gen. Courter get to keep her star after her term as CV is over?  Or did I read it bass-ackwards?

Jack

My best guess was that she didn't want the change to affect her because she didn't want to be self serving.

Often votes for things like pay raises will include that they will take effect after the next election, because then they aren't voting themselves a pay raise with giving the voters a chance to weigh in on the matter.

[Monty]

Good stuff there (I watched a lot of the show).  One question I didn't understand, though, regarding the National Vice Commander's grade.  If I read it correctly, the Nat/CV gets to keep the star, but Gen. Courter asked that the decision be applied after her term is up.  Gen. Pineda wanted it to go into effect immediately, though, and that makes me wonder -- does Gen. Courter get to keep her star after her term as CV is over?  Or did I read it bass-ackwards?

Jack

My best guess was that she didn't want the change to affect her because she didn't want to be self serving.

Often votes for things like pay raises will include that they will take effect after the next election, because then they aren't voting themselves a pay raise with giving the voters a chance to weigh in on the matter.

Uh...isn't that pretty much what I just said?   

[DNall]

yeah that's pretty much what I would think. In fact if MG Pineda HAD proposed the term extensions that way, then I bet it would have passed, and 50/50 they would have made it avail to him also. Just ethics.

[mikeylikey]

Here is the item I liked:

8. Maj Gen Pineda personally invited and strongly encouraged all National Board
members to participate in the Hawk Mountain activity this summer. He added that
attending this activity would also provide an opportunity to conduct informal
business.

So now CAP business will be conducted in the backwoods of Pennsylvania.  I guess that is better than the backroom of the Maxwell Officers Club.

My theory is support for the HAWK MTN program is disappearing.  It would be a shame if they had to shut down the school for lack of attendance.  On the plus side, if it did close, they could then sell the land and buy each member a new "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" tape then.

[ddelaney103]

Good stuff there (I watched a lot of the show).  One question I didn't understand, though, regarding the National Vice Commander's grade.  If I read it correctly, the Nat/CV gets to keep the star, but Gen. Courter asked that the decision be applied after her term is up.  Gen. Pineda wanted it to go into effect immediately, though, and that makes me wonder -- does Gen. Courter get to keep her star after her term as CV is over?  Or did I read it bass-ackwards?

Jack

My best guess was that she didn't want the change to affect her because she didn't want to be self serving.

Often votes for things like pay raises will include that they will take effect after the next election, because then they aren't voting themselves a pay raise with giving the voters a chance to weigh in on the matter.

Uh...isn't that pretty much what I just said?   

Sorry, I didn't get the "someone has just posted" warning...

[DNall]

Here is the item I liked:

8. Maj Gen Pineda personally invited and strongly encouraged all National Board
members to participate in the Hawk Mountain activity this summer. He added that
attending this activity would also provide an opportunity to conduct informal
business.

So now CAP business will be conducted in the backwoods of Pennsylvania.  I guess that is better than the backroom of the Maxwell Officers Club.

My theory is support for the HAWK MTN program is disappearing.  It would be a shame if they had to shut down the school for lack of attendance.  On the plus side, if it did close, they could then sell the land and buy each member a new "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" tape then.

I do think it's about supporting a program that has a lot of competition these days. As far as HMRS, and the varrious offshoot "ranger" programs in a few places, and varrious wing level programs like the pretty good one my state puts on... well I think they need ot not be so locked down to tradition that they don't know when & how to evolve. The ES world has changed SIGNIFICANTLY, especially since 9/11. If they went to a NIMS level WSAR producing course (and dropped the stupid overboard bling & attitude to match), then I'd be their biggest fan. Right now, they float btwn PITA & hooyha school that doesn't do anything useful compared to what we already teach here all year long.

[Chaplaindon]

With appropriate and respect to MG Pineda and his directive ...

In my personal opinion, the Hawk Mountain program is UN-helpful to the overall ES program. It fosters needless elitism at the expense of overall operational competency, interoperability, teamwork, and professionalism throughout CAP.

I believe we should be about the process of ensuring operational competency across the boards in CAP before (if ever) we start promoting small cliques of would-be elites. CAP, as a whole, must achieve and maintain a benchmark standard of perfomance ... FIRST.

To my mind (as a longtime IC), it's nowhere close to that minimum benchmark.

Even then, I suggest that elites won't help build further cohesion and interoperability and cooperation. They will do the opposite; they will interfere rather than help. 

For example, --during Katrina relief-- an adult HMRS-grad refused to reply to numerous, repeated, radio calls directed to him because he wasn't addressed as "RANGER ___" over the air. That is absurd arrogance born of a misguided and misdirected elitism.

We need to be a TEAM in CAP and not a confused conglomeration of disfunctional cliques who lack overall operational competency. As the saying goes, "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link." The CAP operational "chain" needs uniform "strength" before one or two "links" are uselessly strengthened in the form of elite "forces."

Perhaps, and hopefully, MG Pineda and the NB and NEC's foray to and with the HMRS will bear this fact out and will lead to its ultimate and timely dissolution.

[Sgt. Savage]

With appropriate and respect to MG Pineda and his directive ...

In my personal opinion, the Hawk Mountain program is UN-helpful to the overall ES program. It fosters needless elitism at the expense of overall operational competency, interoperability, teamwork, and professionalism throughout CAP.

I believe we should be about the process of ensuring operational competency across the boards in CAP before (if ever) we start promoting small cliques of would-be elites. CAP, as a whole, must achieve and maintain a benchmark standard of perfomance ... FIRST.

To my mind (as a longtime IC), it's nowhere close to that minimum benchmark.

Even then, I suggest that elites won't help build further cohesion and interoperability and cooperation. They will do the opposite; they will interfere rather than help. 

For example, --during Katrina relief-- an adult HMRS-grad refused to reply to numerous, repeated, radio calls directed to him because he wasn't addressed as "RANGER ___" over the air. That is absurd arrogance born of a misguided and misdirected elitism.

We need to be a TEAM in CAP and not a confused conglomeration of disfunctional cliques who lack overall operational competency. As the saying goes, "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link." The CAP operational "chain" needs uniform "strength" before one or two "links" are uselessly strengthened in the form of elite "forces."

Perhaps, and hopefully, MG Pineda and the NB and NEC's foray to and with the HMRS will bear this fact out and will lead to its ultimate and timely dissolution.

I couldn't agree more. Fact is, most ES programs I've seen are slipping into an abyss. There's too much focus on qualifying and not enough quality.

That Katrina situation is too funny. I could share some "helpful" words with someone like that.

Jim

[ZigZag911]

Chaplaindon:

Amen!!!

[JC004]

I like how they're giving one GPS to each wing and region.  WTH good is one GPS?     It's a start, I guess.  Buying 60 GPS units isn't cheap, I imagine.

[mikeylikey]

I guess Pennsylvania's GPS will be going to Hawk MTN for use with the Rangers.  PA Wing dumps more money on the Ranger School than most wings get in appropriations from their state governments. 

I have to agree with the good Chaplain above!  The program is a throw back to a different era.  In fact it's creation was with good intentions.  One of the primary founders of CAP, and the longest sitting Wing Commander in it's history gave his land to start a "CAP only training area".  It was not meant to become what it is today.  Elitism is a real bad thing.  And that is the only thing Hawk MTN CREATES!  I have been to the school, and have many friends and fellow officers who are staff at the school. 

I am not putting down the program as a whole.  There are many members in Pennsylvania that are dedicated to ES training.  They NEED to get rid of the "RANGER" crap.  We can still have a HAWK MTN, but take out the useless hazing, and brainwashing associated with the Ranger side of the training.  Focus primarily on what the rest of the country is focusing in on. 

My biggest issue with Hawk and PA Wing in whole, is how much money is allocated to the school, and that the Ranger Program is so embedded in local Squadron ES training.  There are some Squadrons that refer to themselves as a Ranger Units.  It blows my mind. 

I am all for the Ranger School to go away, along with its titles and elitist attitudes and be replaced with a true ES School. 

Could it be that Pineda has seen the school failing, but wants to draw support to it? 

[fyrfitrmedic]

 Quick question:

How many folks who are critics of the school have actually attended anything at HMRS?

[Chaplaindon]

fyrfitrmedic

As the saying goes, "the proof of the pudding is in the tasting."

Having served as an IC and/or MC for more than 20 years, I have seen first-hand the operational contributions of many HMRS aluni/us. I do not feel I have to attend the school as a prerequisite to any critique.

Such an absurd requirement would mean --if extrapolated logically to its absurd extreme-- that I must first operate a motor vehicle under the influence before criticizing drunk-driving. Having been a paramedic for nearly 25 years (as well as a firefighter), I've seen the results of DWIs enough times to reach a fair conclusion about it.

I think I possess adequate bona fides in CAP and CAP ops/ES --as well as the right as a CAP member-- to proffer personal criticism/critique about HMRS and elitism, based upon experience.

CAP needs operational competency accross-the-boards LONG before (if ever) it needs or would benefit in the slightest from elitism.

[mikeylikey]

Once again I agree with Chaplaindon above  ^

Quick question:

How many folks who are critics of the school have actually attended anything at HMRS?

I have attended three times as a Cadet and Once as a Senior.  Is that enough Hawk MTN experience.  I initially played the Game of "Ranger" as a juvenile Cadet, who thought the title brought me in step with the military.  How mistaken I was.  As I look back on my Three Summers and one Winter spent there, I have to say that the whole "ranger" side is useless except to boost the egos of those walking around running things. 

This past summer when I visited for the anniversary, I forgot the hazing that takes place until I saw it again!  What is the purpose of running the O-course 4 times in a row?  I was told by one cadet that "it builds physical fitness and weeds out those that can't hack it"  It does neither!  There is no way to get physically fit in the week and some days that a cadet attends the school! 

There is also the fact that those cadets and seniors who are die-hard rangers bring that attitude with them to other activities.  There exists a club of "rangers" who attend PA Wing activities in a group, and try to act the same way they do on the "Mountain".  Those are the people who I would want to point out and say "don't be like them".  But if I did, could you imagine the crap people would give me!

[ZigZag911]

This past summer when I visited for the anniversary, I forgot the hazing that takes place until I saw it again! 

This is one of the problems with CAP....this sort of nonsense ahs gone on for years, the top brass know it, even seem to endorse it...yet it contravenes CAP regulations, and more to the point violates the law and no one lifts a finger to stop it.

[fyrfitrmedic]

I attended the anniversary and didn't witness any 'hazing', and I was present from 1200ish on Saturday until well after graduation on Sunday. I'm far from all-seeing, but I didn't see or hear of anyone running that number of OCs.

My question was born out of simple curiosity and is, despite the apparent opinions of some others here, a legitimate question. Do I feel that opinions of those who haven't been to the school personally are of less value? Absolutely not. Do I feel that they come from a different perspective? Certainly. Nobody's questioning anyone's bona fides here.

I've encountered HMRS grads that I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw 'em with one hand. Come to think of it, I've encountered NESA grads and NBB grads and folks from all over the place that fit in the same category.  The difference is that I'm not one of those folks that screams that [fill in name of school or activity here] should be burned to the ground and the ashes plowed under with copious amounts of salt, etc. etc. etc...

I didn't make the Katrina trip, as I've commented before. I was at home caring for my dying father [himself a CAP member who told me to go rather than stay local, incidentally]. The sum total of all the "anecdotes", rumors, recriminations, namecalling and everything else that I've seen from all sides makes me feel a little ashamed to be a member of Civil Air Patrol sometimes.

One thing I'm not ashamed to do, however, is sign my name to my posts.

[JC004]

...I've encountered HMRS grads that I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw 'em with one hand.

Just make sure to only do it to seniors.  CPP and all that.  Could be fun to watch.

[fyrfitrmedic]

...I've encountered HMRS grads that I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw 'em with one hand.

Just make sure to only do it to seniors.  CPP and all that.  Could be fun to watch.

Senior-tossing... could be an event at competitions 

[JC004]

...I've encountered HMRS grads that I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw 'em with one hand.

Just make sure to only do it to seniors.  CPP and all that.  Could be fun to watch.

Senior-tossing... could be an event at competitions 

Sending that to the deputy chiefs of staff IAW the general's invitation.  NCSA maybe.

[Al Sayre]

Do you wear a kilt like in caber tossing?

What kind of grip is legal?  One handed throat sling? Bums rush? Eyes and mouth like a bowling ball?

If you don't get enough distance on the first toss, can you punt?

C'mon guys we need some rules here!

[Chaplaindon]

Not in the least bit "ashamed."

:angel:

Signed

[JC004]

Do you wear a kilt like in caber tossing?

What kind of grip is legal?  One handed throat sling? Bums rush? Eyes and mouth like a bowling ball?

If you don't get enough distance on the first toss, can you punt?

C'mon guys we need some rules here!

Hum...things to be considered.  I don't have a kilt...    Not sure about grip...I would imagine any, since senior members come in lots of shapes and sizes.  I'd surely punt a few seniors I can think of... 

[jimmydeanno]

They NEED to get rid of the "RANGER" crap.  We can still have a HAWK MTN, but take out the useless hazing, and brainwashing associated with the Ranger side of the training.  Focus primarily on what the rest of the country is focusing in on. 

...and what are we left with? NESA

[Dragoon]

Exactly.  If Hawk is to be a national school, it needs to teach the national program.  No extra bells, whistles or ascots required.

[JC004]

Exactly.  If Hawk is to be a national school, it needs to teach the national program.  No extra bells, whistles or ascots required.

Don't tell me they authorized bells on the uniform now...

[arajca]

Continuing this off-topic discussion about Hawk, NESA, ad nauseum.

IMO, Hawk should stop selling itself as a GSAR school and sell itself as a survival school, since, from information I have read and heard, that is a huge focus, with GSAR added to give it credibility. NESA should be a instructor school to provide uniform training for personnel to to conduct ES schools at the wing or region level. This means there would not be a National entry level GSAR/ES school, but is that a loss? Having well trained instructors at wing level ES school would go a long way to having a uniform ES program nationwide. Take FEMA for example, FEMA does not provide classroom training for folks needing ICS course, FEMA provides training for folks to instruct ICS courses. All FEMA instructors get the same curriculum and training to help standardize the ICS instruction.

The NBB "CAP-SSC" dream needs to get a reality check. With the limited number of spots for intense flight line training, NBB does not provide an opportunity for standardized training. It focuses on the activity they are supporting. It is funny that on the NBB Yahoo group, there were a lot of folks telling all the bb's to check their egos and not act as if they are special after the blue beret was authorized.

[mikeylikey]

One thing I'm not ashamed to do, however, is sign my name to my posts.

Not ashamed, just smart.  There are numerous reasons not to give away personal info.  If you are really that interested in who I am, because of what I say, PM me and we can start "chatting".  When the requirement comes down to start signing, I will gladly do that, not before.

[arajca]

The May NEC agenda is up here: May 2007 NEC Meeting Agenda. Some interesting stuff in it. Potential for initial pilot training for seniors.

[ZigZag911]

The May NEC agenda is up here: May 2007 NEC Meeting Agenda. Some interesting stuff in it. Potential for initial pilot training for seniors.

Possible pilot training for seniors is interesting, I think Col Skiba is correct, should be restricted to those already qualified as scanner or observer....some demonstrated interest in ES flying.

They're still beating the PCA horse (legislative agenda request to BOG).

Still no sign of December 2006 BOG meeting minutes!

[JC004]

The May NEC agenda is up here: May 2007 NEC Meeting Agenda. Some interesting stuff in it. Potential for initial pilot training for seniors.

Possible pilot training for seniors is interesting, I think Col Skiba is correct, should be restricted to those already qualified as scanner or observer....some demonstrated interest in ES flying.

They're still beating the PCA horse (legislative agenda request to BOG).

Still no sign of December 2006 BOG meeting minutes!

I also agree with the prereqs for senior flight training.  I think that will go over well.

I found the whole legislative agenda outline interesting (two pages).

And how come the FOUO ops plan is on a public page?

[RiverAux]

The legislative agenda takes active steps to separate CAP from the AF in regards to missions performed for other federal agencies.  Some on this board have been saying for some time that this is what NHQ was trying to do, but I remained skeptical.  Not anymore. 

On the other hand the agenda reveals information about some court cases in which it was pretty clear the AF was trying to separate from CAP. 

All in all, it doesn't bode well for improving the relationship. 

[arajca]

I think part of this separation issue comes straight from being the USAF Aux only part time. It seems like the AF wants full-time control and part-time responsibility. If CAP was the USAF Aux full-time, these issues wouldn't have come up.

Another impression that comes to mind is the AF wants to get rid of CAP, but doesn't want to tell Congress that at this time. I can see some future CSAF recommending to some future SecAF that this under-used organization should be dissolved and the monies put into the AF general budget.

[Eagle400]

I think part of this separation issue comes straight from being the USAF Aux only part time. It seems like the AF wants full-time control and part-time responsibility. If CAP was the USAF Aux full-time, these issues wouldn't have come up.

*Bump*

I agree.  Making CAP the part-time auxiliary of the USAF was one of the worst decisions ever made.  All it did was widen the gap between CAP and the Air Force.  Sad to say, some people want it that way [cough]... Pineda...[cough].   

Another impression that comes to mind is the AF wants to get rid of CAP, but doesn't want to tell Congress that at this time. I can see some future CSAF recommending to some future SecAF that this under-used organization should be dissolved and the monies put into the AF general budget.

It sure does seem that way.  Hopefully, CAP will have built up a better reputation by then and it will be harder to get rid of CAP.  That probably won't happen, though.

Any thoughts?