Minutes

[arajca]

The Draft Minutes of the March 2007 NB meeting are up. Read'em here.

[RogueLeader]

Interesting, Thanks.

[ColonelJack]

Good stuff there (I watched a lot of the show).  One question I didn't understand, though, regarding the National Vice Commander's grade.  If I read it correctly, the Nat/CV gets to keep the star, but Gen. Courter asked that the decision be applied after her term is up.  Gen. Pineda wanted it to go into effect immediately, though, and that makes me wonder -- does Gen. Courter get to keep her star after her term as CV is over?  Or did I read it bass-ackwards?

Jack

[TankerT]

Good stuff there (I watched a lot of the show).  One question I didn't understand, though, regarding the National Vice Commander's grade.  If I read it correctly, the Nat/CV gets to keep the star, but Gen. Courter asked that the decision be applied after her term is up.  Gen. Pineda wanted it to go into effect immediately, though, and that makes me wonder -- does Gen. Courter get to keep her star after her term as CV is over?  Or did I read it bass-ackwards?

Jack

She gets to keep her star after her term as CV is over, IF the Air Force approves this change to the regulation.

[Monty]

Good stuff there (I watched a lot of the show).  One question I didn't understand, though, regarding the National Vice Commander's grade.  If I read it correctly, the Nat/CV gets to keep the star, but Gen. Courter asked that the decision be applied after her term is up.  Gen. Pineda wanted it to go into effect immediately, though, and that makes me wonder -- does Gen. Courter get to keep her star after her term as CV is over?  Or did I read it bass-ackwards?

Jack

I'd guess that she did that so as to professionally present herself as a non-biased person in the matter.

If she says she doesn't want it to apply to her, then she can act one way or the other objectively.

Privately?  She might want it (why not?)  But professionally?  That was the right thing to do.  Keeps personal ambitions from professional progression separate.

If Maj Gen Pineda made the same act with respect to future terms, then we might think that his desire for the job to have succeeding terms is in the best interests of the role, and not for just the man.

Maybe he does advocate it for CAP CCs after him...don't know, haven't followed.

[ddelaney103]

Good stuff there (I watched a lot of the show).  One question I didn't understand, though, regarding the National Vice Commander's grade.  If I read it correctly, the Nat/CV gets to keep the star, but Gen. Courter asked that the decision be applied after her term is up.  Gen. Pineda wanted it to go into effect immediately, though, and that makes me wonder -- does Gen. Courter get to keep her star after her term as CV is over?  Or did I read it bass-ackwards?

Jack

My best guess was that she didn't want the change to affect her because she didn't want to be self serving.

Often votes for things like pay raises will include that they will take effect after the next election, because then they aren't voting themselves a pay raise with giving the voters a chance to weigh in on the matter.

[Monty]

Good stuff there (I watched a lot of the show).  One question I didn't understand, though, regarding the National Vice Commander's grade.  If I read it correctly, the Nat/CV gets to keep the star, but Gen. Courter asked that the decision be applied after her term is up.  Gen. Pineda wanted it to go into effect immediately, though, and that makes me wonder -- does Gen. Courter get to keep her star after her term as CV is over?  Or did I read it bass-ackwards?

Jack

My best guess was that she didn't want the change to affect her because she didn't want to be self serving.

Often votes for things like pay raises will include that they will take effect after the next election, because then they aren't voting themselves a pay raise with giving the voters a chance to weigh in on the matter.

Uh...isn't that pretty much what I just said?   

[DNall]

yeah that's pretty much what I would think. In fact if MG Pineda HAD proposed the term extensions that way, then I bet it would have passed, and 50/50 they would have made it avail to him also. Just ethics.

[mikeylikey]

Here is the item I liked:

8. Maj Gen Pineda personally invited and strongly encouraged all National Board
members to participate in the Hawk Mountain activity this summer. He added that
attending this activity would also provide an opportunity to conduct informal
business.

So now CAP business will be conducted in the backwoods of Pennsylvania.  I guess that is better than the backroom of the Maxwell Officers Club.

My theory is support for the HAWK MTN program is disappearing.  It would be a shame if they had to shut down the school for lack of attendance.  On the plus side, if it did close, they could then sell the land and buy each member a new "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" tape then.

[ddelaney103]

Good stuff there (I watched a lot of the show).  One question I didn't understand, though, regarding the National Vice Commander's grade.  If I read it correctly, the Nat/CV gets to keep the star, but Gen. Courter asked that the decision be applied after her term is up.  Gen. Pineda wanted it to go into effect immediately, though, and that makes me wonder -- does Gen. Courter get to keep her star after her term as CV is over?  Or did I read it bass-ackwards?

Jack

My best guess was that she didn't want the change to affect her because she didn't want to be self serving.

Often votes for things like pay raises will include that they will take effect after the next election, because then they aren't voting themselves a pay raise with giving the voters a chance to weigh in on the matter.

Uh...isn't that pretty much what I just said?   

Sorry, I didn't get the "someone has just posted" warning...

[DNall]

Here is the item I liked:

8. Maj Gen Pineda personally invited and strongly encouraged all National Board
members to participate in the Hawk Mountain activity this summer. He added that
attending this activity would also provide an opportunity to conduct informal
business.

So now CAP business will be conducted in the backwoods of Pennsylvania.  I guess that is better than the backroom of the Maxwell Officers Club.

My theory is support for the HAWK MTN program is disappearing.  It would be a shame if they had to shut down the school for lack of attendance.  On the plus side, if it did close, they could then sell the land and buy each member a new "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" tape then.

I do think it's about supporting a program that has a lot of competition these days. As far as HMRS, and the varrious offshoot "ranger" programs in a few places, and varrious wing level programs like the pretty good one my state puts on... well I think they need ot not be so locked down to tradition that they don't know when & how to evolve. The ES world has changed SIGNIFICANTLY, especially since 9/11. If they went to a NIMS level WSAR producing course (and dropped the stupid overboard bling & attitude to match), then I'd be their biggest fan. Right now, they float btwn PITA & hooyha school that doesn't do anything useful compared to what we already teach here all year long.

[Chaplaindon]

With appropriate and respect to MG Pineda and his directive ...

In my personal opinion, the Hawk Mountain program is UN-helpful to the overall ES program. It fosters needless elitism at the expense of overall operational competency, interoperability, teamwork, and professionalism throughout CAP.

I believe we should be about the process of ensuring operational competency across the boards in CAP before (if ever) we start promoting small cliques of would-be elites. CAP, as a whole, must achieve and maintain a benchmark standard of perfomance ... FIRST.

To my mind (as a longtime IC), it's nowhere close to that minimum benchmark.

Even then, I suggest that elites won't help build further cohesion and interoperability and cooperation. They will do the opposite; they will interfere rather than help. 

For example, --during Katrina relief-- an adult HMRS-grad refused to reply to numerous, repeated, radio calls directed to him because he wasn't addressed as "RANGER ___" over the air. That is absurd arrogance born of a misguided and misdirected elitism.

We need to be a TEAM in CAP and not a confused conglomeration of disfunctional cliques who lack overall operational competency. As the saying goes, "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link." The CAP operational "chain" needs uniform "strength" before one or two "links" are uselessly strengthened in the form of elite "forces."

Perhaps, and hopefully, MG Pineda and the NB and NEC's foray to and with the HMRS will bear this fact out and will lead to its ultimate and timely dissolution.

[Sgt. Savage]

With appropriate and respect to MG Pineda and his directive ...

In my personal opinion, the Hawk Mountain program is UN-helpful to the overall ES program. It fosters needless elitism at the expense of overall operational competency, interoperability, teamwork, and professionalism throughout CAP.

I believe we should be about the process of ensuring operational competency across the boards in CAP before (if ever) we start promoting small cliques of would-be elites. CAP, as a whole, must achieve and maintain a benchmark standard of perfomance ... FIRST.

To my mind (as a longtime IC), it's nowhere close to that minimum benchmark.

Even then, I suggest that elites won't help build further cohesion and interoperability and cooperation. They will do the opposite; they will interfere rather than help. 

For example, --during Katrina relief-- an adult HMRS-grad refused to reply to numerous, repeated, radio calls directed to him because he wasn't addressed as "RANGER ___" over the air. That is absurd arrogance born of a misguided and misdirected elitism.

We need to be a TEAM in CAP and not a confused conglomeration of disfunctional cliques who lack overall operational competency. As the saying goes, "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link." The CAP operational "chain" needs uniform "strength" before one or two "links" are uselessly strengthened in the form of elite "forces."

Perhaps, and hopefully, MG Pineda and the NB and NEC's foray to and with the HMRS will bear this fact out and will lead to its ultimate and timely dissolution.

I couldn't agree more. Fact is, most ES programs I've seen are slipping into an abyss. There's too much focus on qualifying and not enough quality.

That Katrina situation is too funny. I could share some "helpful" words with someone like that.

Jim

[ZigZag911]

Chaplaindon:

Amen!!!

[JC004]

I like how they're giving one GPS to each wing and region.  WTH good is one GPS?     It's a start, I guess.  Buying 60 GPS units isn't cheap, I imagine.

[mikeylikey]

I guess Pennsylvania's GPS will be going to Hawk MTN for use with the Rangers.  PA Wing dumps more money on the Ranger School than most wings get in appropriations from their state governments. 

I have to agree with the good Chaplain above!  The program is a throw back to a different era.  In fact it's creation was with good intentions.  One of the primary founders of CAP, and the longest sitting Wing Commander in it's history gave his land to start a "CAP only training area".  It was not meant to become what it is today.  Elitism is a real bad thing.  And that is the only thing Hawk MTN CREATES!  I have been to the school, and have many friends and fellow officers who are staff at the school. 

I am not putting down the program as a whole.  There are many members in Pennsylvania that are dedicated to ES training.  They NEED to get rid of the "RANGER" crap.  We can still have a HAWK MTN, but take out the useless hazing, and brainwashing associated with the Ranger side of the training.  Focus primarily on what the rest of the country is focusing in on. 

My biggest issue with Hawk and PA Wing in whole, is how much money is allocated to the school, and that the Ranger Program is so embedded in local Squadron ES training.  There are some Squadrons that refer to themselves as a Ranger Units.  It blows my mind. 

I am all for the Ranger School to go away, along with its titles and elitist attitudes and be replaced with a true ES School. 

Could it be that Pineda has seen the school failing, but wants to draw support to it? 

[fyrfitrmedic]

 Quick question:

How many folks who are critics of the school have actually attended anything at HMRS?

[Chaplaindon]

fyrfitrmedic

As the saying goes, "the proof of the pudding is in the tasting."

Having served as an IC and/or MC for more than 20 years, I have seen first-hand the operational contributions of many HMRS aluni/us. I do not feel I have to attend the school as a prerequisite to any critique.

Such an absurd requirement would mean --if extrapolated logically to its absurd extreme-- that I must first operate a motor vehicle under the influence before criticizing drunk-driving. Having been a paramedic for nearly 25 years (as well as a firefighter), I've seen the results of DWIs enough times to reach a fair conclusion about it.

I think I possess adequate bona fides in CAP and CAP ops/ES --as well as the right as a CAP member-- to proffer personal criticism/critique about HMRS and elitism, based upon experience.

CAP needs operational competency accross-the-boards LONG before (if ever) it needs or would benefit in the slightest from elitism.

[mikeylikey]

Once again I agree with Chaplaindon above  ^

Quick question:

How many folks who are critics of the school have actually attended anything at HMRS?

I have attended three times as a Cadet and Once as a Senior.  Is that enough Hawk MTN experience.  I initially played the Game of "Ranger" as a juvenile Cadet, who thought the title brought me in step with the military.  How mistaken I was.  As I look back on my Three Summers and one Winter spent there, I have to say that the whole "ranger" side is useless except to boost the egos of those walking around running things. 

This past summer when I visited for the anniversary, I forgot the hazing that takes place until I saw it again!  What is the purpose of running the O-course 4 times in a row?  I was told by one cadet that "it builds physical fitness and weeds out those that can't hack it"  It does neither!  There is no way to get physically fit in the week and some days that a cadet attends the school! 

There is also the fact that those cadets and seniors who are die-hard rangers bring that attitude with them to other activities.  There exists a club of "rangers" who attend PA Wing activities in a group, and try to act the same way they do on the "Mountain".  Those are the people who I would want to point out and say "don't be like them".  But if I did, could you imagine the crap people would give me!

[ZigZag911]

This past summer when I visited for the anniversary, I forgot the hazing that takes place until I saw it again! 

This is one of the problems with CAP....this sort of nonsense ahs gone on for years, the top brass know it, even seem to endorse it...yet it contravenes CAP regulations, and more to the point violates the law and no one lifts a finger to stop it.