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12 Year Old C/CC

Started by Schmidty06, March 01, 2005, 01:22:34 AM

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ZigZag911

Quote from: schreiberboy on July 13, 2006, 07:02:16 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on July 13, 2006, 04:10:41 PM
It would, however, give the 'high fliers' a little more time to gain experience & maturity.
At my squadron we have an evaluation form of a little less than 40 points to evaluate the cadets.  When one guy is up for promotion, the squadron commander and I run through the evaluation, and if the cadet lacks too many points in certain areas (he doesn't have to score a perfect 100 A+), we withhold his promotion until he proves to us that he has improved.

Compliments to you and your CC on taking your responsibility seriously!

If only your approach were more the norm.

However, my suggestion was simply to help space out cadet promotions a bit more sensibly, to increase the likelihood that a cadet would be ready to promote when the achievement was finished (including tig)....this would not eliminate the need for command level review, but might help reduce questions, arguments, angry calls from parents, and so forth.

BillB

A three month time in grade is fine for the 12-14 year old cadets. It gives them time to absorb the leadership and aerospace material. However, for the 15 to 18 year old cadets, it's to long a TIG. They are slightly more mature and can grasp material somewhat more rapidly.
The cadet program in reality has three levels of cadets, the 12-14 year old, the 15 to 18, and the 18 to 21. Over the past sixty years the cadet program made provisions for the various age groups. The 12-14 fell into what CAP called the Eaglet Program (actually the ages were lower for Eaglet members). The 15-18 year olds were the regular cadets, and the 18-21 year olds were in Officers Training Corp. This system worked by putting cadets into age groups with their peers and allowed cadets to advance based on maturity levels as well as educational levels. Please note that the three levels were mainly in training, and were not designed to develop cliques within a Squadron. One Florida unit was given permission to try an Eaglet program two years ago and while membership was low, the cadets learned rapidly and when time came to join the regular cadets they were well prepared.
Having a program like OTC for the older cadets allowed a much higher retention rate. Their text books for Aerospace were more advanced and complex. The OTC Leadership portion of the program more closely followed regular AFROTC (Not JAFROTC) It presented a older cadet with a more challenging program than what currently exists.
Promotions were based on ability, not automatic by taking two tests. Commanders had discretionary grade promotion (or demotion) authority which required Wing approval.  Therefore a cadet could not be a C/CC until they were advanced enough in the various levels to be able to handle the responsibility of the position.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

ZigZag911

I'd be interested in learning more about this; it pre-dates my cadet membership (1970); heard something like this proposed at an open discussion with some National brass 5 or 6 years ago (different incumbents, obviously), and they did not like the idea of it at all....but it seems like a logical, necessary step as the organizations HLS commitment grows....young adult trainees may be allowed to work in that area, but I don't see the government accepting minors.

Up until shortly before I joined, squadron commanders had promotion/demotion authority with one built-in 'loophole'.....earning certain milestone awards resulted in an automatic jump in grade, and I believe the new grade became the cadet's 'base grade'....could not be demoted below it.....all I remmember is that the Mitchell resulted in promotion to c/2 Lt, regardless of prior rank....a necessary provision to curtail the possibility of favoritism.


BillB

I think you'll find that anyone that remembers the old cadet system(s) are no longer in CAP. There may be a copy of the brochures or even the Regulations on the Eaglet Program in the CAP Archives. I may have one somewhere, but after moving three times in 10 years, it may have gone by the board) The OTC program never was popular with cadets since there was no specific goals. Today it would probably include Homeland Security issues/missions, ES training etc., while still allowing the OTC member to earn the Spaatz.
In the Florida unit that tested an Eaglet type program the Eaglets wore USAF shirts, no insignia and blue jeans. If the program was done on a National level, I would think that some sort of insignia such as the overseas patch of the prop and triangle would be added.
A three level system for the cadet program would allow younger cadets to take part at their age level, and at the same time, retain the 18-21 years old in the OTC level to continue cadet tarining while also taking training in senior program.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

Marine Corps Gal

Quote from: Greg on March 01, 2005, 02:49:33 PM
I disagree with age limitations, but this guy has GOT to be violating TIG requirements.  Anybody else notice the article was written by his mom?

Yes, as a matter of fact -- and that's something to consider.  I have seen this scenario before (almost the exact same), where the mom or dad (I won't say which for security reasons) was in command and right there to grease the wheels/sign all the papers.  I'm not saying that's how it was in this cadet's case, but it is entirely possible.  I would have to meet the fellow to know.
OO-RAH.

ZigZag911

Quote from: Marine Corps Gal on July 16, 2006, 12:39:00 PM
Quote from: Greg on March 01, 2005, 02:49:33 PM
I disagree with age limitations, but this guy has GOT to be violating TIG requirements.  Anybody else notice the article was written by his mom?

Yes, as a matter of fact -- and that's something to consider.  I have seen this scenario before (almost the exact same), where the mom or dad (I won't say which for security reasons) was in command and right there to grease the wheels/sign all the papers.  I'm not saying that's how it was in this cadet's case, but it is entirely possible.  I would have to meet the fellow to know.

Any commander with offspring as cadets in his/her unit should have another officer take responsibility for approving the cadet's advancement...DCC, where possible....it is a matter of simple integrity....there is too much favoritism, nepotism and cronyism in CAP, from top to bottom.

Psicorp

Quote from: ZigZag911 on July 13, 2006, 04:10:41 PM
In my thirty plus years (the first handful as a cadet, and eventually a cadet officer), I've seen that neither age, IQ, or genetics really seem to determine who is a good officer (cadet OR senior)....it has a lot more to do with character.

Having said that, my observation has been that very young cadet officers often lack the maturity to handle the responsibilities of their grade and/or assigned position.

Here is a modest proposal to address the situation: cahnge time in grade requirement for cadet promotions to 3 months.

C/2 Lt would take a minimum of 2 years, C/Lt Col a minimum of 4 years....which would make Eaker/Spaatz cadets 15 at the very least.

It wouldn't be a hardship to the average cadet; most only advance 2 to 3 achievements annually as it is.

It would, however, give the 'high fliers' a little more time to gain experience & maturity.

Having missed the chance to take the Spaatz exam a second time due to turning 21 (college courses got in the way, silly me), I envy those cadets who seemingly have all the time in the world to prep.   On the other side of the coin though, does anyone really expect an older cadet (16-20) or a senior member to really respect a 12 or 13 year old C/Col?   I know when I was a cadet I wouldn't have...I probably would have told him/her to go play with his/her diamonds.    This really bothers me on a core level.  I can't imagine a Squadron Commander allowing a cadet to advance that quickly, even if it's Mommy or Daddy.  A cadet starting that young really should have all the fundamentals down in six foot thick concrete before being allowed anywhere near officer grades.   Is it possible that JROTC units and military academies generally only use third and fourth year students as cadet staff for a reason?  Just a thought.    I realize that every parent thinks their "little angel" is the best and brightest, but being able to pass exams isn't the only criterium for advancement in the program.
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

schreiberboy

Quote from: Psicorp on July 22, 2006, 03:56:16 AM
I realize that every parent thinks their "little angel" is the best and brightest, but being able to pass exams isn't the only criterium for advancement in the program.
I agree completely!
c/2d Lt Daniel Schreiber, CAP
LTC BnCo, Camden Military Academy

capchiro

Upon reflection of this matter, I think individual circumstances may prevail and age may not always reveal maturity/ability.  After all, how old was Custer when he made general and how old was Audie Murphy when he became the most decorated enlisted man in Korea and became 2Lt. through battlefield commission.  I do know that we had a Spaatz. in our wing that was 13 years old and she did come in under the old age requirements.  That being said, she came from a fine military family and was very well indoctrinated in the military.  I believe she had a brother that was also a Spaatz and being a very close family, I have to believe that she probably began reading and understanding CAP info a long time before joining.  Again, these cadets we have talked about are the exception and perhaps others should aspire to do as well instead of bemoaning the fact that they didn't have enough time to make the grade.  I know a lot of cadets that waste time and then something comes up, like a job or tech school, or flight lessons, possibly even a girl or boyfriend etc., ande then they can not be bothered enough to put the effort into CAP.  I do think it is easier for a young cadet to concentrate on CAP as they truly have more free time and less distractions.  However, if the program is administered fairly, any young cadet that reaches such a level should have demonstrated the same abilities and required expertise/knowledge as an older cadet.  JMHO.
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

manfredvonrichthofen

#69
When I was a cadet there were requirements of time in grade also, I think it was three months. If there is no TIG requirement, Awesome, Great job! That is great to know that there are cadets that are that into CAP. There were none in my old squadron as a cadet.

DBlair

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 29, 2010, 07:18:56 AM
When I was a cadet there were requirements of time in grade also, I think it was three months. If there is no TIG requirement, Awesome, Great job! That is great to know that there are cadets that are that into CAP. There were none in my old squadron as a cadet.

The same 2 month TIG requirement still exists.
DANIEL BLAIR, Lt Col, CAP
C/Lt Col (Ret) (1990s Era)
Wing Staff / Legislative Squadron Commander

Rotorhead

Quote from: schreiberboy on July 13, 2006, 07:02:16 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on July 13, 2006, 04:10:41 PM
It would, however, give the 'high fliers' a little more time to gain experience & maturity.
At my squadron we have an evaluation form of a little less than 40 points to evaluate the cadets.  When one guy is up for promotion, the squadron commander and I run through the evaluation, and if the cadet lacks too many points in certain areas (he doesn't have to score a perfect 100 A+), we withhold his promotion until he proves to us that he has improved.
But if you do that you can't proudly claim you have record-setting cadets who make C/Col and Spaatz award at 6 years old.
Capt. Scott Orr, CAP
Deputy Commander/Cadets
Prescott Composite Sqdn. 206
Prescott, AZ

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 29, 2010, 07:18:56 AM
When I was a cadet there were requirements of time in grade also, I think it was three months. If there is no TIG requirement, Awesome, Great job! That is great to know that there are cadets that are that into CAP. There were none in my old squadron as a cadet.


Nice four year grave dig.

kd8gua

Hah, I read the original post, and now I'm curious... I was in the Honor Flight at 03 OHWG Encampment. I wonder if I remember the cadet in question.
Capt Brad Thomas
Communications Officer
Columbus Composite Squadron

Assistant Cadet Programs Activities Officer
Ohio Wing HQ

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: kd8gua on May 30, 2010, 06:01:06 PM
Hah, I read the original post, and now I'm curious... I was in the Honor Flight at 03 OHWG Encampment. I wonder if I remember the cadet in question.

I was at HGA the year after him, and he was remembered as the source if a lot of drama.

vmstan

MICHAEL M STANCLIFT, 1st Lt, CAP
Public Affairs Officer, NCR-KS-055, Heartland Squadron

Quote"I wish to compliment NHQ on this extremely well and clearly written regulation.
This publication once and for all should establish the uniform pattern to be followed
throughout Civil Air Patrol."

1949 Uniform and Insignia Committee comment on CAP Reg 35-4

SarDragon

This might even be a new Zombie record!
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

a2capt

I've got to grave dig to find the article now, I must have not read this one - Even if they snuck in as the "6th grade" thing ..

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: a2capt on June 01, 2010, 07:02:14 AM
I've got to grave dig to find the article now, I must have not read this one - Even if they snuck in as the "6th grade" thing ..

It was the 12 or 6th grade rule, and he was home-schooled by his Mother, who was the unit commander. It was posted as an online story back when the website was CAP.gov

As for grace digs, someone pulled a story from 2005 before, so it may have some competition.

jimmydeanno

I don't understand what the age of a thread has to do with anything.  Isn't the content more important? 

Certainly, it can be argued that by complaining about the "necromancy" places more of an emphasis on the chronology of the threads than what the content is.  Unfortunately, valuable discussions are looked at as obsolete simply because of the time period they were created.

So long as the added content adds to the discussion, does the age really matter?
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill