CAP Awards

[lordmonar]

Good idea! I have long thought that the CAP has too many meaningless ribbons and there isn't enough prestige in the major awards. They are basically just another ribbon and certificates. A presentation medal would give the awards system a little more meaning. Here's another idea, why not limit the senior member professional development ribbons to one -- the highest earned. It would eliminate a lot of uniform clutter.

Not the highest earned.....if you only want people to wear one ribbon....only have one ribbon to earn.

[Hawk200]

Good idea! I have long thought that the CAP has too many meaningless ribbons and there isn't enough prestige in the major awards. They are basically just another ribbon and certificates. A presentation medal would give the awards system a little more meaning. Here's another idea, why not limit the senior member professional development ribbons to one -- the highest earned. It would eliminate a lot of uniform clutter.

Not the highest earned.....if you only want people to wear one ribbon....only have one ribbon to earn.

Second. Giving people awards, and then telling them they can't wear it when they get the next one is a bit counter intuitive. One ribbon with attachments would be a lot easier. I'd dump all the separate ribbons and be wearing a single one with just attachments as soon as the order arrived in the mail.

We have a bad habit of giving a ribbon for everything, but a large stack doesn't tell the whole story. I have about five more ribbons on my rack than a buddy of mine, but he has more attachments than I do. All in all, he probably has about six or seven more awards, but people still think the size of the rack is more important. Mine is more diverse, his shows consistancy. Many people still don't read a ribbon rack as a resume.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I threw this together a while back: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1695.msg26806#msg26806

Mike, I like your list.  Whether or not AF/DOD would go for it is another question...despite the fact that the first Air Medal of WWII was awarded to a CAP member, and that CGAUX can earn some CG awards.

I do agree that there are too many ribbons, particularly on the cadet side.  I'm not trying to take away anything from these young people's achievements, but when I see a ribbon rack on a 14-year-old that makes Stormin' Norman Schwarzkopf's look like a buck private, especially when said ribbon rack is (sometimes) bent, with frayed ribbons, then I wonder.

I have to admit that, except for my Commander's Commendation, all of my ribbons are basically for showing up and being a good boy.

But this isn't just about CAP...the Armed Forces as a whole, in my decide-for-yourself-whether-it's-humble-or-not opinion, have too many ribbons...a newly-minted Airman coming out of Lackland can have more ribbons than Generals and Admirals in other countries have.

[Hawk200]

I do agree that there are too many ribbons, particularly on the cadet side.  I'm not trying to take away anything from these young people's achievements, but when I see a ribbon rack on a 14-year-old that makes Stormin' Norman Schwarzkopf's look like a buck private, especially when said ribbon rack is (sometimes) bent, with frayed ribbons, then I wonder.

I would have to agree on that account, mostly due to a few cadets with some self importance issues. Went to a Wing CC call hosted at my local unit one Saturday. Was newly rejoined, so I didn't have all my CAP ribbons yet, so I just pulled the rack off my military uniform and tossed it on my blues. Had a cadet Lieutenant with a bit of an attitude look at my rack, looked down on his own, then with a superior expression announce to everyone present, "I've got more than you!". I just smiled patiently, shook my head, while thinking, 'All right smart aleck, wait til next time'.

The look of shock on his face the next time we were at a multi-unit function was priceless after I had acquired and added the CAP ribbons I had. It was even amusing when one of his fellow cadets that was present when he had made his statement the last time said, "I thought you had more than him?". I didn't say a word about, just went on about my business.

...a newly-minted Airman coming out of Lackland can have more ribbons than Generals and Admirals in other countries have.

No kidding. At Keasler, I saw one and two stripers with six, seven, even eight ribbons; and none of them were even prior service. It was two years before I even had three when I first joined.

The GWOT-S basically became the new National Defense. I saw all the new airman with it.

[Spike]

...a newly-minted Airman coming out of Lackland can have more ribbons than Generals and Admirals in other countries have.

No kidding. At Keasler, I saw one and two stripers with six, seven, even eight ribbons; and none of them were even prior service. It was two years before I even had three when I first joined.

The GWOT-S basically became the new National Defense. I saw all the new airman with it.

Really?  Eight ribbons an an Airman straight out of Basic.  That is amazing.  I count the possibility of 3 or even 4 in other Services, guess the Air Force needs to look more impressive.

Anyway, Eliminating/ Consolidating Ribbons is a good thing.  We can still hand out certificates, but the awarding of numerous ribbons is getting ridiculous.  I have 14 (so I don't put on the military Ribbons with the CAP rack).  Sometimes I don't even wear the ribbons, because it looks excessive.

I am a strong proponent of following the Air Force, one badge, and pick your ribbons you want to wear.  No other bling required.   

[jimmydeanno]

I can't think of 8 Air Force ribbons that a non-prior could earn coming out of BMT.  All I can think of are...

AF Training Ribbon
Small Arms Expert
BMT Honor Graduate
NDSM
GWOT-S

[RiverAux]

I wouldn't care one way or another about the senior awards (though I like having a medal option available instead of the livesaving certificate), but I'm not sure I like the idea of removing the names of the cadet achievement awards.  Having the names of these great leaders attached to these awards serves several motivational purposes and there isn't really any need to try to standardize those cadet awards with Air Force awards. 

However, I am forced to ask what problem this would solve   

[flyboy53]

I agree, but who pays for them?

Good point....has anyone ever considered seeking a grant from someone, or is it possible to see if Vanguard would consider producing them and then offering them for sale? That would mean those who want them can purchase them...just like AFES military clothing sales does now. Or why can't NHQ budget to develop one medal at a time and build a stock pile for future awards.

[flyboy53]

Have any of you ever looked at the 1949 Civil Air Patrol manuals? Cadets only had three training ribbons to earn. Senior members had three ribbons for service. Years later, everything started to explode. Officers (senior members) had ribbons like ECI training, etc., and the wartime service was shown in three or four ribbons. Now the Wartime Service Medal has nothing to do with the original ribbons and the current ribbon was actually reappropriated (stolen) from the New York State Conspicuous Service Cross. I really think that one professional development ribbon with the appropriate attachments is such a great idea. Do the other ribbons really matter if you obtained a Wilson Award? The sad thing is that for a lot of members, PD ribbons are about the only things they earn and there's always so much confusion between devices for the ribbons, wearing them backward or out of sequence. I even met a lieutenant colonel once who wore two silver stars on his Earhart Ribbon...and justified each one. I've also known people that earned the senior member certificate of proficiency and then purchase the lapel pin from Vanguard; only to be told they can't wear it...when the lapel pin doesn't even match the original Certificate of Proficiency. Why can't we have one emergency services-like ribbon with devices for things like specific operations or multiple awards. Just one, please.

[flyboy53]

I can't think of 8 Air Force ribbons that a non-prior could earn coming out of BMT.  All I can think of are...
GWOT-S

Listen to him, folks. He knows. Early on in the 1970s, there were only three: BMTS, SAEMSR, and BMTS Honor Grad....I never knew anyone who earned all three. Most of us only earned one and sometimes two of those three.

[lordmonar]

However, I am forced to ask what problem this would solve   

No problem...but it hurts my sense of aesthetics. 

The difference between my "solution seeking a problem" and yours is that mine does not create any new problems or excludes anyone.  It is mostly just name changing.

[lordmonar]

I can't think of 8 Air Force ribbons that a non-prior could earn coming out of BMT.  All I can think of are...
GWOT-S

Listen to him, folks. He knows. Early on in the 1970s, there were only three: BMTS, SAEMSR, and BMTS Honor Grad....I never knew anyone who earned all three. Most of us only earned one and sometimes two of those three.

I got BMTS and Honor grad....I got the marksman ribbon at tech school (missed M-16 by 1 point, but I got a perfect score on the .38!)

[Hawk200]

I can't think of 8 Air Force ribbons that a non-prior could earn coming out of BMT.  All I can think of are...

AF Training Ribbon
Small Arms Expert
BMT Honor Graduate
NDSM
GWOT-S

Good point. For the life of me I can't think of what the other ones were, but I remember two or three of the NPS airman that had started on a third row.

What struck me as wierd one day was seeing a number of one and two stripers with five, I saw a Staff Sergeant at the little mini PX that day with only five (BMT, Longevity, PME, GWOT-S, NDSM, Good Conduct). That seems unbalanced to me.

[flyboy53]

I got BMTS and Honor grad....I got the marksman ribbon at tech school (missed M-16 by 1 point, but I got a perfect score on the .38!)

My first ribbon was an Outstanding Unit Award (21st Composite Wing, Alaskan Air Command). I always thought I looked kind of silly, SF qualification badge and no marksmanship ribbon, go figure.  I didn't get the SAEMR) for seven years because I kept missing pistol by two points and the M-16 by the same amount. BMTS or AF Training, the AF Recognition Ribbon and the two overseas service ribbons didn't come out until the fall of 1980 and were introduced incrementally. So, even though my Overseas Service Ribbon was authorized, it was 1982 before there was anything available at the BX.

[BGNightfall]

I distinctly remember airmen in my tech school with five.  In addition to honor grad, there was also an honor flight ribbon, I believe. 

As for the subject at hand, I am reminded of something said to me by numerous commanders, both CAP and SDF, using various phrasing.  In paraphrase, it was that as unpaid volunteers we cannot provide monetary recognition for the efforts of our members, so we instead turn to awards so that at least their peers can recognize their good deeds. 

It is worth noting that whether or not there are more awards or less, there will always be people who seem to have a ton for not doing anything, and other people who do a ton of work but never seem to get any. 

[flyboy53]

I distinctly remember airmen in my tech school with five.  In addition to honor grad, there was also an honor flight ribbon, I believe. 

As for the subject at hand, I am reminded of something said to me by numerous commanders, both CAP and SDF, using various phrasing.  In paraphrase, it was that as unpaid volunteers we cannot provide monetary recognition for the efforts of our members, so we instead turn to awards so that at least their peers can recognize their good deeds.

Yes and Napoleon said in 1815 that his soldiers would fight long and hard for a piece of ribbon. Stop hammering the Air Force for presenting lots of ribbons. Years ago I had a Navy wife who slammed me for the same reason because her husband, a Navy Chief didn't even have two rows. It turned out that he was a nuclear reactor instructor on his second enlistment and hadn't done anything to warrant campaign medals let alone decorations. Yes, I  too have known Airmen with more ribbons than the five rows that I earned but those junior airmen were caught in an operations tempo that literally meant that they were constantly deployed from one hot spot to another with little time at their home base and with families. If someone succeeded in earning five ribbons at the conclusion of basic training, I'm curious to know if that person was prior service and was required to complete basic training as part of his enlistment. In my era of active duty, there were three prior service Army types in my flight, including one who had to graduate from tech school and became an instant E-5. And, by the way, Honor Flight in the Air Force is not a ribbon, it's a streamer for the guidon. The only thing an airman gets is a certificate or a fancy little unofficial cloth patch that can be purchased for those blue flight jackets you could get at the BX. That said, the original tread related to CAP ribbons. the powers that be have consolidated training to the point where Level I is just a series of on-line sessions with little interaction by an instructor. Why does that now warrant a ribbon? The Air Force Training ribbon requires several weeks/months of active duty and completion of basic to earn the ribbon. The Army Service Ribbon requires MOS qualification before being awarded; it's totally different than the watered down training CAP officers now complete in order to be promoted, so why can't all of the senior member levels of traning be consolidated into one ribbon with devices like bronze numbers to reflect skill levels or completion of SOS, ACSC, etc.

[AlphaSigOU]

Since rejoining CAP over four years ago I now have more ribbons on my rack than a banana-republic dictator - even more than I had WIWAC! 2 AF and 15 CAP. I do like to wear my ribbons on the shirt but have since put my ribbon rack on a Navy-style ribbon diet - a 'short stack'.  The ribbons I selected are all CAP so it can be worn interchangeably on the AF-style or corporate white shirt. I selected nine ribbons out of the 17 total I've earned since coming back as a senior member in 2005:

Top row: up to three CAP decorations  (mine has the 'Comm-Comm' (Commander's Commendation), 'Blue Hornet' (National Commander's Unit Citation) and 'Green Weenie' (Unit Citation Award)).

Second row - professional development and longevity awards: I selected the Garber (highest senior PD award earned, so far), highest cadet award earned (Earhart) and the Red Service Ribbon.

Third row: service and activity awards: My third row sports the Find Ribbon, Disaster Relief Ribbon  and Encampment Ribbon.

Overall, it's much easier to manage than a full rack, which continues to be worn on my service dress jacket, or if we go to the straight corporate grays right into the shadow box. It doesn't overwhelm the shirt and allows plenty of room to place wings or badges above the rack.

My personal preference... YMMV.

[Eclipse]

the powers that be have consolidated training to the point where Level I is just a series of on-line sessions with little interaction by an instructor. Why does that now warrant a ribbon?

Incorrect. 

If anything, and done per regulation, the Level 1 process today is much better than it was before, and has no analog to military training.

Comparing ribbons between services, especially non-combatant volunteer vs. combatant military, doesn't work.

[lordmonar]

Good point. For the life of me I can't think of what the other ones were, but I remember two or three of the NPS airman that had started on a third row.

What struck me as weird one day was seeing a number of one and two stripers with five, I saw a Staff Sergeant at the little mini PX that day with only five (BMT, Longevity, PME, GWOT-S, NDSM, Good Conduct). That seems unbalanced to me.

A lot has to do with what sort of assignments and TDY's you get. 

Were these airman you saw at Keesler actually tech school students fresh from BMTS or were they follow on students/permanent party.   It is not unreasonable for brand spanking new airman fresh from tech school get sent to the desert on an AEF rotation.  4-months in the desert gets them the GWOT-E and/or the OEF/OIF medals.  If they do an outstanding job it is not unusual to get an AFAM out of the deal.

On the subject of the SSgt only having ribbons after 4 years in service.....well if you spend all four years in the states and do not deploy you would not have gotten the opportunity to get any medals and ribbons.

It is the nature of our warfighting in the last 15 years or so that has kicked up the number of ribbons and medals AF people earn.

Back in the Cold War days....Airman could expect one overseas assignment and maybe 1 or 2 TDYs (usually to Turkey, German or Korea) over a 20 year career.  The Gulf War changed all that.  Now most everyone is expected to go the combat zone for 4 months out of ever 18 months (if you believe the AEF model  ).  Each one of those opens an opportunity to get a medal (or two or three).

So...I don't think it is at all unusual to see and Airman with more bling than a SSgt.  You just got to know the history.  Which is one of the whole points of having bling in the first place. 

[Eclipse]

When I read a CAP rack, I'm looking mostly at the bottom and top rows.

The bottom rows tell me what you actually did, the top tells me someone likes you (or did at one time).

The mid-rows are kind of an attitude filter about PD - if you're a 1st Lt. with a 25 on your Red Service, or a Major with no Level II, it says
"something".  What that "something" is varies, and does not imply a negative or positive.

That's why I'm not a fan of short-stacking, because the ribbons tell a story as a whole, leave some out and you're leaving out pieces of the puzzle.