CAP Awards

[lordmonar]

A comment from another thread got me thinking about reworking the CAP award System.

Basically I was thinking about renaming the awards to match USAF/DOD awards.

Such as:

Silver Medal of Valor=CAP Cross
Bronze Medal of Valor=CAP Star
Distinguished Service Award=CAP Distinguished Service Medal
Exceptional Service Award=CAP Superior Service Medal
Meritorious Service Award=CAP Meritorious Service Medal
Commander's Commendation=CAP Commendation Medal
CAP Achievement Award=CAP Achievement Medal
Commander's Unit Citation=CAP Meritorious Unit Award
Unit Citation=CAP Outstanding Unit Award
Search and Rescure ribbon/Counter Drug ribbon/O-flight ribbon/new HLS ribbon (what ever it will be called)=CAP Aerial Achievement Medal/CAP Ground Team Achievement Medal/CAP Mission Support Achievement Medal (yes trade three medals for three different medals)
Desaster Relief ribbon=CAP Humanitarian Service Medal
Community Service Ribbon=CAP Outstanding Volunteer Medal
Red Service Ribbon=CAP Longevity Ribbon
Lifesaving Award=CAP Airman's Medal

While I am at it.....
For cadets eliminate all the ribbons for each achievements and go with the following
Curry=CAP Cadet Basic Training Ribbon
Wright Brother=CAP Cadet NCO Training Ribbon
Mitchell=CAP Cadet Company Grade Officer Training Ribbon
Earheart=CAP Cadet Field Grade Officer Training Ribbon
Eaker=CAP Cadet Command Officer Training Ribbon
Spaatz=Spaatz Award

On the Senior side:
Membership Award=CAP Basic Training Ribbon
Leadership Award=CAP Professional Development Ribbon (awarded at Level II not specialty track)
Loening, Garber and Wilson awards=denoted as clasps on the CAP Professional Development Ribbon
Yeager=CAP Aerospace Education Award

Eliminate the Crossfield award, Find (change to a device on the appropriate CAP Air/Ground/Support Achievement Award).  Eliminate the AFA, AFSA, VFW, etc awards and change to CAP Outstanding Cadet Award (1 per wing per training phase...no difference in awards).

Keep the IACE, Encampment, CAC, NCSA (combining the NCC and NCG into it as well). Keep the Recruiting Ribbon but combine them into a single ribbon with the same criteria for both senior and cadets.


FLAME ON!

[MIKE]

I threw this together a while back: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1695.msg26806#msg26806

[lordmonar]

I threw this together a while back: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1695.msg26806#msg26806

I like what you did....but I was trying not to add too many new awards....but I have no problem adding those as well if there is really a need for them.

[Eclipse]

Eliminate the Crossfield award, Find (change to a device on the appropriate CAP Air/Ground/Support Achievement Award).  Eliminate the AFA, AFSA, VFW, etc awards and change to CAP Outstanding Cadet Award (1 per wing per training phase...no difference in awards).

What's a "training phase?"

[Hawk200]

Basically I was thinking about renaming the awards to match USAF/DOD awards.

Such as:

Silver Medal of Valor=CAP Cross
Bronze Medal of Valor=CAP Star
Distinguished Service Award=CAP Distinguished Service Medal
Exceptional Service Award=CAP Superior Service Medal
Meritorious Service Award=CAP Meritorious Service Medal
Commander's Commendation=CAP Commendation Medal
CAP Achievement Award=CAP Achievement Medal
Commander's Unit Citation=CAP Meritorious Unit Award
Unit Citation=CAP Outstanding Unit Award
Search and Rescure ribbon/Counter Drug ribbon/O-flight ribbon/new HLS ribbon (what ever it will be called)=CAP Aerial Achievement Medal/CAP Ground Team Achievement Medal/CAP Mission Support Achievement Medal (yes trade three medals for three different medals)
Desaster Relief ribbon=CAP Humanitarian Service Medal
Community Service Ribbon=CAP Outstanding Volunteer Medal
Red Service Ribbon=CAP Longevity Ribbon
Lifesaving Award=CAP Airman's Medal

I don't really see the point of renaming them. I can see reducing a few of them. That's an action for the sake of an action. No real point, there's no problem being solved.

While I am at it.....
For cadets eliminate all the ribbons for each achievements and go with the following
Curry=CAP Cadet Basic Training Ribbon
Wright Brother=CAP Cadet NCO Training Ribbon
Mitchell=CAP Cadet Company Grade Officer Training Ribbon
Earheart=CAP Cadet Field Grade Officer Training Ribbon
Eaker=CAP Cadet Command Officer Training Ribbon
Spaatz=Spaatz Award

I think it's a good idea, but I'd add a cadet "Senior NCO" ribbon. It'd be a long haul from one stripe to the officer ranks. But I'm not a cadet, so I can't really speak for it.

Loening, Garber and Wilson awards=denoted as clasps on the CAP Professional Development Ribbon

I would support this in a heartbeat. Too many ribbons for something that should be a continuation of training, not as separate actions.

Eliminate the AFA, AFSA, VFW, etc awards and change to CAP Outstanding Cadet Award.

Those are awarded by organizations separate from CAP. I don't think it's a good idea to eliminate outside awards and replace them with one of our own. Some of those organizations may take it as a snub.

Keep the IACE, Encampment, CAC, NCSA (combining the NCC and NCG into it as well).

I can see making one ribbon out of these. Something like a "Special Activities" ribbon. One ribbon, add devices for additional activities.

Keep the Recruiting Ribbon but combine them into a single ribbon with the same criteria for both senior and cadets.

Agreed. No real reason to have dual standards or separate awards.

[WheelsUp]

  I still think those of us who deployed overseas in the military should be allowed to wear our right-shoulder "combat patch" on our CAP uniform. My BDU's just don't feel "right" without it.

[Hawk200]

  I still think those of us who deployed overseas in the military should be allowed to wear our right-shoulder "combat patch" on our CAP uniform. My BDU's just don't feel "right" without it.

I've got combat patches myself, but I don't think they belong on a CAP uniform.

Besides, you've got a flag on that side, it should feel fine. What should feel strange is not having a patch on the left.

[lordmonar]

Eliminate the Crossfield award, Find (change to a device on the appropriate CAP Air/Ground/Support Achievement Award).  Eliminate the AFA, AFSA, VFW, etc awards and change to CAP Outstanding Cadet Award (1 per wing per training phase...no difference in awards).

What's a "training phase?"

I thought you were a CP guy?

[lordmonar]

Those are awarded by organizations separate from CAP. I don't think it's a good idea to eliminate outside awards and replace them with one of our own. Some of those organizations may take it as a snub.

Then stick them on the bottom like ROTC ribbons.

[Hawk200]

Those are awarded by organizations separate from CAP. I don't think it's a good idea to eliminate outside awards and replace them with one of our own. Some of those organizations may take it as a snub.

Then stick them on the bottom like ROTC ribbons.

Works for me.

[lordmonar]

  I still think those of us who deployed overseas in the military should be allowed to wear our right-shoulder "combat patch" on our CAP uniform. My BDU's just don't feel "right" without it.

Let's keep this about CAP ribbons and not open it up to military awards and what not.

[Eclipse]

Eliminate the Crossfield award, Find (change to a device on the appropriate CAP Air/Ground/Support Achievement Award).  Eliminate the AFA, AFSA, VFW, etc awards and change to CAP Outstanding Cadet Award (1 per wing per training phase...no difference in awards).

What's a "training phase?"

I thought you were a CP guy?

I thought you were using it in a different way - disregard.

[Pylon]

I like the idea because it doesn't involve changing our current ribbons, making very few things obsolete, combining truly redundant or superfolous items (two recruiter ribbons, NCGC and NDC), and makes our awards structure obvious to those in big brother blue.  In other words, they'll (and a lot of other people will) understand what a "CAP Longevity Ribbon" is for versus what "Red Service" is supposed to mean.  For the majority of awards, it simply means just starting to call them something different.  No new ribbons, no big reg changes, very little cost to members, and able to be phased in gradually over time.

[PHall]

  I still think those of us who deployed overseas in the military should be allowed to wear our right-shoulder "combat patch" on our CAP uniform. My BDU's just don't feel "right" without it.

That is a ARMY practice, the Air Force does not do that. And since we are the sometimes Auxiliary of the Air Force, we usually follow the Air Force practices.

[Hawk200]

  I still think those of us who deployed overseas in the military should be allowed to wear our right-shoulder "combat patch" on our CAP uniform. My BDU's just don't feel "right" without it.

That is a ARMY practice, the Air Force does not do that. And since we are the sometimes Auxiliary of the Air Force, we usually follow the Air Force practices.

That, and the Air Force no longer practices the wearing of Army patches on Air Force uniforms.

[arajca]

Basically I was thinking

Bad habit. Shame on you! 

Search and Rescure ribbon/Counter Drug ribbon/O-flight ribbon/new HLS ribbon (what ever it will be called)=CAP Aerial Achievement Medal/CAP Ground Team Achievement Medal/CAP Mission Support Achievement Medal (yes trade three medals for three different medals)

You're actually trading four for three.

Community Service Ribbon=CAP Outstanding Volunteer Medal

Not sure about this one. Sounds like a completely different award. Community Serivce = hours of service to the community. More than one per unit per year. Outstanding Volunteer Medal = only one outstanding volunteer. If you change the requirements, what happens to those who already have the Community Service ribbon?

While I am at it.....
For cadets eliminate all the ribbons for each achievements and go with the following
Curry=CAP Cadet Basic Training Ribbon
Wright Brother=CAP Cadet NCO Training Ribbon
Mitchell=CAP Cadet Company Grade Officer Training Ribbon
Earheart=CAP Cadet Field Grade Officer Training Ribbon
Eaker=CAP Cadet Command Officer Training Ribbon
Spaatz=Spaatz Award

On the Senior side:
Membership Award=CAP Basic Training Ribbon
Leadership Award=CAP Professional Development Ribbon (awarded at Level II not specialty track)
Loening, Garber and Wilson awards=denoted as clasps on the CAP Professional Development Ribbon
Yeager=CAP Aerospace Education Award

I'd keep the Wilson as a separate award since it is the capstone. What about the Benjamin O. Davis award?

Keep the Recruiting Ribbon but combine them into a single ribbon with the same criteria for both senior and cadets.

Perhaps first at 2 recruits, second at 5 (three more), then every 5 afterward?

[SarDragon]

I don't really see the point of renaming them. I can see reducing a fewof them. That's an action for the sake of an action. No real point,there's no problem being solved.

+1

[flyboy53]

Good idea! I have long thought that the CAP has too many meaningless ribbons and there isn't enough prestige in the major awards. They are basically just another ribbon and certificates. A presentation medal would give the awards system a little more meaning. Here's another idea, why not limit the senior member professional development ribbons to one -- the highest earned. It would eliminate a lot of uniform clutter.

[lordmonar]

Community Service Ribbon=CAP Outstanding Volunteer Medal

Not sure about this one. Sounds like a completely different award. Community Serivce = hours of service to the community. More than one per unit per year. Outstanding Volunteer Medal = only one outstanding volunteer. If you change the requirements, what happens to those who already have the Community Service ribbon?

You are right....that should be CAP Oustanding Volunteer Service Medal to match the Military Oustanding Volunteer Service Medal.

I'd keep the Wilson as a separate award since it is the capstone. What about the Benjamin O. Davis award?

I'll buy keeping the Wilson....the Davis Award does not currently have a medal to go with it. 

Keep the Recruiting Ribbon but combine them into a single ribbon with the same criteria for both senior and cadets.

Perhaps first at 2 recruits, second at 5 (three more), then every 5 afterward?

I don't understand the sliding rule on this sort of thing.  If recruiting 2 people is a good thing....then let's reward for every two.  It is like the credit card company giving you one year at 5% then slamming you with 25% instrest later.  Six of one half dozen of the other.  If the hang up is that you start getting too many pips and ribbons for recruiting....we can always just change the system to use number instead.

[Eclipse]

A presentation medal would give the awards system a little more meaning.

I agree, but who pays for them?

I just blew through $100 on frames and ribbons for this years round of holiday party decs.  Add the medals in there and that's probably +50% again.

[lordmonar]

Good idea! I have long thought that the CAP has too many meaningless ribbons and there isn't enough prestige in the major awards. They are basically just another ribbon and certificates. A presentation medal would give the awards system a little more meaning. Here's another idea, why not limit the senior member professional development ribbons to one -- the highest earned. It would eliminate a lot of uniform clutter.

Not the highest earned.....if you only want people to wear one ribbon....only have one ribbon to earn.

[Hawk200]

Good idea! I have long thought that the CAP has too many meaningless ribbons and there isn't enough prestige in the major awards. They are basically just another ribbon and certificates. A presentation medal would give the awards system a little more meaning. Here's another idea, why not limit the senior member professional development ribbons to one -- the highest earned. It would eliminate a lot of uniform clutter.

Not the highest earned.....if you only want people to wear one ribbon....only have one ribbon to earn.

Second. Giving people awards, and then telling them they can't wear it when they get the next one is a bit counter intuitive. One ribbon with attachments would be a lot easier. I'd dump all the separate ribbons and be wearing a single one with just attachments as soon as the order arrived in the mail.

We have a bad habit of giving a ribbon for everything, but a large stack doesn't tell the whole story. I have about five more ribbons on my rack than a buddy of mine, but he has more attachments than I do. All in all, he probably has about six or seven more awards, but people still think the size of the rack is more important. Mine is more diverse, his shows consistancy. Many people still don't read a ribbon rack as a resume.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I threw this together a while back: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1695.msg26806#msg26806

Mike, I like your list.  Whether or not AF/DOD would go for it is another question...despite the fact that the first Air Medal of WWII was awarded to a CAP member, and that CGAUX can earn some CG awards.

I do agree that there are too many ribbons, particularly on the cadet side.  I'm not trying to take away anything from these young people's achievements, but when I see a ribbon rack on a 14-year-old that makes Stormin' Norman Schwarzkopf's look like a buck private, especially when said ribbon rack is (sometimes) bent, with frayed ribbons, then I wonder.

I have to admit that, except for my Commander's Commendation, all of my ribbons are basically for showing up and being a good boy.

But this isn't just about CAP...the Armed Forces as a whole, in my decide-for-yourself-whether-it's-humble-or-not opinion, have too many ribbons...a newly-minted Airman coming out of Lackland can have more ribbons than Generals and Admirals in other countries have.

[Hawk200]

I do agree that there are too many ribbons, particularly on the cadet side.  I'm not trying to take away anything from these young people's achievements, but when I see a ribbon rack on a 14-year-old that makes Stormin' Norman Schwarzkopf's look like a buck private, especially when said ribbon rack is (sometimes) bent, with frayed ribbons, then I wonder.

I would have to agree on that account, mostly due to a few cadets with some self importance issues. Went to a Wing CC call hosted at my local unit one Saturday. Was newly rejoined, so I didn't have all my CAP ribbons yet, so I just pulled the rack off my military uniform and tossed it on my blues. Had a cadet Lieutenant with a bit of an attitude look at my rack, looked down on his own, then with a superior expression announce to everyone present, "I've got more than you!". I just smiled patiently, shook my head, while thinking, 'All right smart aleck, wait til next time'.

The look of shock on his face the next time we were at a multi-unit function was priceless after I had acquired and added the CAP ribbons I had. It was even amusing when one of his fellow cadets that was present when he had made his statement the last time said, "I thought you had more than him?". I didn't say a word about, just went on about my business.

...a newly-minted Airman coming out of Lackland can have more ribbons than Generals and Admirals in other countries have.

No kidding. At Keasler, I saw one and two stripers with six, seven, even eight ribbons; and none of them were even prior service. It was two years before I even had three when I first joined.

The GWOT-S basically became the new National Defense. I saw all the new airman with it.

[Spike]

...a newly-minted Airman coming out of Lackland can have more ribbons than Generals and Admirals in other countries have.

No kidding. At Keasler, I saw one and two stripers with six, seven, even eight ribbons; and none of them were even prior service. It was two years before I even had three when I first joined.

The GWOT-S basically became the new National Defense. I saw all the new airman with it.

Really?  Eight ribbons an an Airman straight out of Basic.  That is amazing.  I count the possibility of 3 or even 4 in other Services, guess the Air Force needs to look more impressive.

Anyway, Eliminating/ Consolidating Ribbons is a good thing.  We can still hand out certificates, but the awarding of numerous ribbons is getting ridiculous.  I have 14 (so I don't put on the military Ribbons with the CAP rack).  Sometimes I don't even wear the ribbons, because it looks excessive.

I am a strong proponent of following the Air Force, one badge, and pick your ribbons you want to wear.  No other bling required.   

[jimmydeanno]

I can't think of 8 Air Force ribbons that a non-prior could earn coming out of BMT.  All I can think of are...

AF Training Ribbon
Small Arms Expert
BMT Honor Graduate
NDSM
GWOT-S

[RiverAux]

I wouldn't care one way or another about the senior awards (though I like having a medal option available instead of the livesaving certificate), but I'm not sure I like the idea of removing the names of the cadet achievement awards.  Having the names of these great leaders attached to these awards serves several motivational purposes and there isn't really any need to try to standardize those cadet awards with Air Force awards. 

However, I am forced to ask what problem this would solve   

[flyboy53]

I agree, but who pays for them?

Good point....has anyone ever considered seeking a grant from someone, or is it possible to see if Vanguard would consider producing them and then offering them for sale? That would mean those who want them can purchase them...just like AFES military clothing sales does now. Or why can't NHQ budget to develop one medal at a time and build a stock pile for future awards.

[flyboy53]

Have any of you ever looked at the 1949 Civil Air Patrol manuals? Cadets only had three training ribbons to earn. Senior members had three ribbons for service. Years later, everything started to explode. Officers (senior members) had ribbons like ECI training, etc., and the wartime service was shown in three or four ribbons. Now the Wartime Service Medal has nothing to do with the original ribbons and the current ribbon was actually reappropriated (stolen) from the New York State Conspicuous Service Cross. I really think that one professional development ribbon with the appropriate attachments is such a great idea. Do the other ribbons really matter if you obtained a Wilson Award? The sad thing is that for a lot of members, PD ribbons are about the only things they earn and there's always so much confusion between devices for the ribbons, wearing them backward or out of sequence. I even met a lieutenant colonel once who wore two silver stars on his Earhart Ribbon...and justified each one. I've also known people that earned the senior member certificate of proficiency and then purchase the lapel pin from Vanguard; only to be told they can't wear it...when the lapel pin doesn't even match the original Certificate of Proficiency. Why can't we have one emergency services-like ribbon with devices for things like specific operations or multiple awards. Just one, please.

[flyboy53]

I can't think of 8 Air Force ribbons that a non-prior could earn coming out of BMT.  All I can think of are...
GWOT-S

Listen to him, folks. He knows. Early on in the 1970s, there were only three: BMTS, SAEMSR, and BMTS Honor Grad....I never knew anyone who earned all three. Most of us only earned one and sometimes two of those three.

[lordmonar]

However, I am forced to ask what problem this would solve   

No problem...but it hurts my sense of aesthetics. 

The difference between my "solution seeking a problem" and yours is that mine does not create any new problems or excludes anyone.  It is mostly just name changing.

[lordmonar]

I can't think of 8 Air Force ribbons that a non-prior could earn coming out of BMT.  All I can think of are...
GWOT-S

Listen to him, folks. He knows. Early on in the 1970s, there were only three: BMTS, SAEMSR, and BMTS Honor Grad....I never knew anyone who earned all three. Most of us only earned one and sometimes two of those three.

I got BMTS and Honor grad....I got the marksman ribbon at tech school (missed M-16 by 1 point, but I got a perfect score on the .38!)

[Hawk200]

I can't think of 8 Air Force ribbons that a non-prior could earn coming out of BMT.  All I can think of are...

AF Training Ribbon
Small Arms Expert
BMT Honor Graduate
NDSM
GWOT-S

Good point. For the life of me I can't think of what the other ones were, but I remember two or three of the NPS airman that had started on a third row.

What struck me as wierd one day was seeing a number of one and two stripers with five, I saw a Staff Sergeant at the little mini PX that day with only five (BMT, Longevity, PME, GWOT-S, NDSM, Good Conduct). That seems unbalanced to me.

[flyboy53]

I got BMTS and Honor grad....I got the marksman ribbon at tech school (missed M-16 by 1 point, but I got a perfect score on the .38!)

My first ribbon was an Outstanding Unit Award (21st Composite Wing, Alaskan Air Command). I always thought I looked kind of silly, SF qualification badge and no marksmanship ribbon, go figure.  I didn't get the SAEMR) for seven years because I kept missing pistol by two points and the M-16 by the same amount. BMTS or AF Training, the AF Recognition Ribbon and the two overseas service ribbons didn't come out until the fall of 1980 and were introduced incrementally. So, even though my Overseas Service Ribbon was authorized, it was 1982 before there was anything available at the BX.

[BGNightfall]

I distinctly remember airmen in my tech school with five.  In addition to honor grad, there was also an honor flight ribbon, I believe. 

As for the subject at hand, I am reminded of something said to me by numerous commanders, both CAP and SDF, using various phrasing.  In paraphrase, it was that as unpaid volunteers we cannot provide monetary recognition for the efforts of our members, so we instead turn to awards so that at least their peers can recognize their good deeds. 

It is worth noting that whether or not there are more awards or less, there will always be people who seem to have a ton for not doing anything, and other people who do a ton of work but never seem to get any. 

[flyboy53]

I distinctly remember airmen in my tech school with five.  In addition to honor grad, there was also an honor flight ribbon, I believe. 

As for the subject at hand, I am reminded of something said to me by numerous commanders, both CAP and SDF, using various phrasing.  In paraphrase, it was that as unpaid volunteers we cannot provide monetary recognition for the efforts of our members, so we instead turn to awards so that at least their peers can recognize their good deeds.

Yes and Napoleon said in 1815 that his soldiers would fight long and hard for a piece of ribbon. Stop hammering the Air Force for presenting lots of ribbons. Years ago I had a Navy wife who slammed me for the same reason because her husband, a Navy Chief didn't even have two rows. It turned out that he was a nuclear reactor instructor on his second enlistment and hadn't done anything to warrant campaign medals let alone decorations. Yes, I  too have known Airmen with more ribbons than the five rows that I earned but those junior airmen were caught in an operations tempo that literally meant that they were constantly deployed from one hot spot to another with little time at their home base and with families. If someone succeeded in earning five ribbons at the conclusion of basic training, I'm curious to know if that person was prior service and was required to complete basic training as part of his enlistment. In my era of active duty, there were three prior service Army types in my flight, including one who had to graduate from tech school and became an instant E-5. And, by the way, Honor Flight in the Air Force is not a ribbon, it's a streamer for the guidon. The only thing an airman gets is a certificate or a fancy little unofficial cloth patch that can be purchased for those blue flight jackets you could get at the BX. That said, the original tread related to CAP ribbons. the powers that be have consolidated training to the point where Level I is just a series of on-line sessions with little interaction by an instructor. Why does that now warrant a ribbon? The Air Force Training ribbon requires several weeks/months of active duty and completion of basic to earn the ribbon. The Army Service Ribbon requires MOS qualification before being awarded; it's totally different than the watered down training CAP officers now complete in order to be promoted, so why can't all of the senior member levels of traning be consolidated into one ribbon with devices like bronze numbers to reflect skill levels or completion of SOS, ACSC, etc.

[AlphaSigOU]

Since rejoining CAP over four years ago I now have more ribbons on my rack than a banana-republic dictator - even more than I had WIWAC! 2 AF and 15 CAP. I do like to wear my ribbons on the shirt but have since put my ribbon rack on a Navy-style ribbon diet - a 'short stack'.  The ribbons I selected are all CAP so it can be worn interchangeably on the AF-style or corporate white shirt. I selected nine ribbons out of the 17 total I've earned since coming back as a senior member in 2005:

Top row: up to three CAP decorations  (mine has the 'Comm-Comm' (Commander's Commendation), 'Blue Hornet' (National Commander's Unit Citation) and 'Green Weenie' (Unit Citation Award)).

Second row - professional development and longevity awards: I selected the Garber (highest senior PD award earned, so far), highest cadet award earned (Earhart) and the Red Service Ribbon.

Third row: service and activity awards: My third row sports the Find Ribbon, Disaster Relief Ribbon  and Encampment Ribbon.

Overall, it's much easier to manage than a full rack, which continues to be worn on my service dress jacket, or if we go to the straight corporate grays right into the shadow box. It doesn't overwhelm the shirt and allows plenty of room to place wings or badges above the rack.

My personal preference... YMMV.

[Eclipse]

the powers that be have consolidated training to the point where Level I is just a series of on-line sessions with little interaction by an instructor. Why does that now warrant a ribbon?

Incorrect. 

If anything, and done per regulation, the Level 1 process today is much better than it was before, and has no analog to military training.

Comparing ribbons between services, especially non-combatant volunteer vs. combatant military, doesn't work.

[lordmonar]

Good point. For the life of me I can't think of what the other ones were, but I remember two or three of the NPS airman that had started on a third row.

What struck me as weird one day was seeing a number of one and two stripers with five, I saw a Staff Sergeant at the little mini PX that day with only five (BMT, Longevity, PME, GWOT-S, NDSM, Good Conduct). That seems unbalanced to me.

A lot has to do with what sort of assignments and TDY's you get. 

Were these airman you saw at Keesler actually tech school students fresh from BMTS or were they follow on students/permanent party.   It is not unreasonable for brand spanking new airman fresh from tech school get sent to the desert on an AEF rotation.  4-months in the desert gets them the GWOT-E and/or the OEF/OIF medals.  If they do an outstanding job it is not unusual to get an AFAM out of the deal.

On the subject of the SSgt only having ribbons after 4 years in service.....well if you spend all four years in the states and do not deploy you would not have gotten the opportunity to get any medals and ribbons.

It is the nature of our warfighting in the last 15 years or so that has kicked up the number of ribbons and medals AF people earn.

Back in the Cold War days....Airman could expect one overseas assignment and maybe 1 or 2 TDYs (usually to Turkey, German or Korea) over a 20 year career.  The Gulf War changed all that.  Now most everyone is expected to go the combat zone for 4 months out of ever 18 months (if you believe the AEF model  ).  Each one of those opens an opportunity to get a medal (or two or three).

So...I don't think it is at all unusual to see and Airman with more bling than a SSgt.  You just got to know the history.  Which is one of the whole points of having bling in the first place. 

[Eclipse]

When I read a CAP rack, I'm looking mostly at the bottom and top rows.

The bottom rows tell me what you actually did, the top tells me someone likes you (or did at one time).

The mid-rows are kind of an attitude filter about PD - if you're a 1st Lt. with a 25 on your Red Service, or a Major with no Level II, it says
"something".  What that "something" is varies, and does not imply a negative or positive.

That's why I'm not a fan of short-stacking, because the ribbons tell a story as a whole, leave some out and you're leaving out pieces of the puzzle.

[Spike]

 Going from Army to AF Reserve was a "culture shock".  I had more ribbons than the Colonel, served more time overseas than most, and had to stop using certain acronyms. 

Ribbons are meant to reward CAP members for accomplishments.  If we had none, why would a person stay in CAP??  Telling a person "great job on that mission, is great, but backing it up with the award of something and doing it in public where everyone can see it is the PAY we all receive.

I do think though the options should be in place to wear all, some or none (including Cadets).   

[Hawk200]

Good point. For the life of me I can't think of what the other ones were, but I remember two or three of the NPS airman that had started on a third row.

What struck me as weird one day was seeing a number of one and two stripers with five, I saw a Staff Sergeant at the little mini PX that day with only five (BMT, Longevity, PME, GWOT-S, NDSM, Good Conduct). That seems unbalanced to me.

....

Were these airman you saw at Keesler actually tech school students fresh from BMTS or were they follow on students/permanent party.

Yes, they were fresh from Basic. That's what NPS means: Non Prior Service.

[AlphaSigOU]

When I read a CAP rack, I'm looking mostly at the bottom and top rows.

The bottom rows tell me what you actually did, the top tells me someone likes you (or did at one time).

The mid-rows are kind of an attitude filter about PD - if you're a 1st Lt. with a 25 on your Red Service, or a Major with no Level II, it says
"something".  What that "something" is varies, and does not imply a negative or positive.

That's why I'm not a fan of short-stacking, because the ribbons tell a story as a whole, leave some out and you're leaving out pieces of the puzzle.

Which is why I carefully arranged my 'short stack' to present a 'Reader's Digest Condensed Books' version of my CAP ribbon résumé. I do like to wear a full ribbon rack but as I'd already mentioned it's a little unwieldy.

[lordmonar]

Good point. For the life of me I can't think of what the other ones were, but I remember two or three of the NPS airman that had started on a third row.

What struck me as weird one day was seeing a number of one and two stripers with five, I saw a Staff Sergeant at the little mini PX that day with only five (BMT, Longevity, PME, GWOT-S, NDSM, Good Conduct). That seems unbalanced to me.

....

Were these airman you saw at Keesler actually tech school students fresh from BMTS or were they follow on students/permanent party.

Yes, they were fresh from Basic. That's what NPS means: Non Prior Service.

I still don't know how they could have come up with five.  If they were Army or ANG before joining up they may have had the Army Rainbow ribbon or something like that....but that is about it.

Either way......if they had five...then they earned them.  Maybe it was a give away like the NDSM and GWOT-S.  But we have had to deal with those sorts of medals since the 1940's.

So...back to CAP.

I would like to limit the number of meaningless ribbons but still reward people for their hard work doing their job, and getting the PD done.

At the same time I would like to see that the requirments be streamlines and standardised.

All in all just clean it up a bit.

[Eclipse]

How about we take the lead on this and convert from static, cloth ribbons, to an 3x2" OLED display, or perhaps add something like the
Phillips electronic cloth?

You only buy your "rack" once, ribbons are automatically added when eServices is updated, and no one would ever have the order wrong, mounting backwards, or weird configurations of attachments.

For cadets or foreign generals the display could autoscroll.

[NCRblues]

  lol @eclipse, Thank you I needed a good laugh to make my day better.

[MSgt Van]

 :clap:

[Nolan Teel]

That is the first thing thats ever made sense on here!  I salute you! :clap:

[vento]

What Eclipse said!  :clap:

[flyboy53]

Incorrect. 

If anything, and done per regulation, the Level 1 process today is much better than it was before, and has no analog to military training.

Comparing ribbons between services, especially non-combatant volunteer vs. combatant military, doesn't work.

I disagree, in the NYW, many units, especially those in the western part of the state, did seminars with instructors....that's what I meant. As for comparing military and CAP, we've been doing that this entire thread. As for your other digital ribbon idea...cool, best yet! Star Trek lives!!! I just think there's got to be a better way to illustrate senior member training than six or more ribbons.

[ltcmark]

The bling on CAP uniforms is not even close to what the active duty services have.  I came up with the following count. (It is by no means 100% accurate, but it is close).

Army 75 left side, 10 right
USN 93
USAF 86
Coast Guard 97
Marine 90
This does not include Guard ribbons from each state.

Our sister branch - Coast Guard Aux 30

Now for CAP:
CAP Senior 32
CAP Cadet 39
We have a long way to go to catch up to the active duty.  Bling away.

[Hawk200]

The bling on CAP uniforms is not even close to what the active duty services have.  I came up with the following count. (It is by no means 100% accurate, but it is close).

Army 75 left side, 10 right
USN 93
USAF 86
Coast Guard 97
Marine 90
This does not include Guard ribbons from each state.

Our sister branch - Coast Guard Aux 30

Now for CAP:
CAP Senior 32
CAP Cadet 39
We have a long way to go to catch up to the active duty.  Bling away.

What exactly are you counting as "bling" ?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Using NORAD as an example:

The Commander of NORAD, General Victor "Gene" Renuart, Jr, USAF:

http://www.norad.mil/leaders/Bio_Gen_Renuart_Nov09.pdf

Deputy Commander of NORAD, Canadian Lieutenant General J.M. Duval:

http://www.norad.mil/leaders/Duval_EN.pdf

Both very accomplished officers, with one "star" rank difference, but a whole lotta fruit salad difference (of course, some of General Duval's bling is close to Knighthood).

But something more akin to our status as noncombatant auxiliaries:

The Commandant of the UK Royal Air Force Air Training Corps, Air Commodore (BG equivalent) Ian Stewart:

http://tinyurl.com/RAFATC

OK, it might be apples and oranges...but I still think we have too much chest candy, both on the auxiliary and military side.

[Eclipse]

The Commandant of the UK Royal Air Force Air Training Corps, Air Commodore (BG equivalent) Ian Stewart:

http://tinyurl.com/RAFATC

OK, it might be apples and oranges...but I still think we have too much chest candy, both on the auxiliary and military side.

RAF uniforms, in general, tend to be pretty low-key, and their grade structure is more suppressed as well, making much heavier
use of the idea of a "Flight Officer".

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The Commandant of the UK Royal Air Force Air Training Corps, Air Commodore (BG equivalent) Ian Stewart:

http://tinyurl.com/RAFATC

OK, it might be apples and oranges...but I still think we have too much chest candy, both on the auxiliary and military side.

RAF uniforms, in general, tend to be pretty low-key, and their grade structure is more suppressed as well, making much heavier
use of the idea of a "Flight Officer".

Except with them (along with Australia, New Zealand, India and Canada until 1968), Flying Officer is a commissioned rank, equal to First Lieutenant with us.

Their ranks are more descriptive of "aviation" than ours; i.e., Flight Sergeant, Squadron Leader, Pilot Officer, Wing Commander, Group Captain...

[Gunner C]

Good point. For the life of me I can't think of what the other ones were, but I remember two or three of the NPS airman that had started on a third row.

What struck me as weird one day was seeing a number of one and two stripers with five, I saw a Staff Sergeant at the little mini PX that day with only five (BMT, Longevity, PME, GWOT-S, NDSM, Good Conduct). That seems unbalanced to me.

A lot has to do with what sort of assignments and TDY's you get. 

Were these airman you saw at Keesler actually tech school students fresh from BMTS or were they follow on students/permanent party.   It is not unreasonable for brand spanking new airman fresh from tech school get sent to the desert on an AEF rotation.  4-months in the desert gets them the GWOT-E and/or the OEF/OIF medals.  If they do an outstanding job it is not unusual to get an AFAM out of the deal.

On the subject of the SSgt only having ribbons after 4 years in service.....well if you spend all four years in the states and do not deploy you would not have gotten the opportunity to get any medals and ribbons.

It is the nature of our warfighting in the last 15 years or so that has kicked up the number of ribbons and medals AF people earn.

Back in the Cold War days....Airman could expect one overseas assignment and maybe 1 or 2 TDYs (usually to Turkey, German or Korea) over a 20 year career.  The Gulf War changed all that.  Now most everyone is expected to go the combat zone for 4 months out of ever 18 months (if you believe the AEF model  ).  Each one of those opens an opportunity to get a medal (or two or three).

So...I don't think it is at all unusual to see and Airman with more bling than a SSgt.  You just got to know the history.  Which is one of the whole points of having bling in the first place.

It also has to do with what you do and when you do it.  If you look at my ribbon rack below you'll see that all of my stuff is "thanks for showing up" and "enjoyed you while you were here."  Many of us were in combat during "peacetime" and weren't afforded combat decorations.  One of my army achievement medals was downgraded from a bronze star, another was downgraded from an air medal.  The JSCM is also a peacetime downgrade.  I know that this is an extreme but there's lots of folks walking around with RASH awards who actually got out there and did stuff.  Personally, I kinda like it - it's the "You don't know as much about me as you think" type of thing and it's kinda fun.

[flyboy53]

I always look at my decorations: five Commendation Medals (one for non-combat valor at a  A-10 crash) and two Achievement Medals as that I guess I measured up once or twice in my life. I always tell everyone else, however, that I just kept my nose clean. The one AFCM for non-combat valor was an upgraded Achievement Medal and the last AFCM was awarded instead of a MSM at my own choice because it was coming from a Brig. Gen. wing commander that I knew personally and respected. Otherwise, it would have had to go to 14th Air Force and that's never a guarantee of an award.

[James Shaw]

Leave them as they are and wear all of them. I dont think it is a bad idea but I seriously doubt it would even be considered by NHQ or the AF.

[ltcmark]

What exactly are you counting as "bling" ?

Just the ribbons, for all services mentioned.

Badges are easy since they are limited to 1 per position.

[MSgt Van]

If you look at my ribbon rack below you'll see that all of my stuff is "thanks for showing up" and "enjoyed you while you were here." 

That top one appears to be an MSM - got that for just showing up?!

[Gunner C]

I hope they didn't just give them away - In my old unit that's what they gave you if you got killed in "peacetime" combat.  Getting two and living to tell about it was an honor I'm not sure I deserved compared to others.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

It also has to do with what you do and when you do it.

This is true.  I had a supervisor who did a couple of combat tours in Thailand, got up to Master Sergeant, got a commission and retired as a Captain with 24+ years in the USAF, with his last posting being at the Pentagon.  I noticed he had a "pocket rocket," which I'd always associated with ICBM's, silos, "The Day After," etc.  When I asked him he laughed and said "I got this for hanging Sidewinders and Shrikes on Phantoms and Thuds at Korat, Thailand."

His ribbon rack was just unreal, not surprising given his long career with combat time.  Even if he would have wanted to, I doubt he could have worn the full whack on his light blue shirt, because it was just so massive.

He had wanted to get involved with CAP but never did...I can't imagine what his ribbon rack would have looked like with all the AF chest candy plus CAP stuff.

Also, remember that ANG/ARNG types often have two racks; one with their state ribbons and one without for FAD, since they cannot wear state ribbons when on FAD (nor in CAP; a point of contention with some ex-Guard CAP'ers).

[Hawk200]

Just the ribbons, for all services mentioned.

So you probably counted a large number of ribbons that are no longer authorized for award, even though they show on the listing.

What's your source on the counts?

[Hawk200]

Also, remember that ANG/ARNG types often have two racks; one with their state ribbons and one without for FAD, since they cannot wear state ribbons when on FAD (nor in CAP; a point of contention with some ex-Guard CAP'ers).

I wouldn't say "often", it's actually pretty rare for Guard types to go on a Title 10 status where they would need a special rack. Deployments are about the only Title 10 that Guard types get, and I don't even know when they would wear Service/Class A.

[James Shaw]

When I read a CAP rack, I'm looking mostly at the bottom and top rows.

The bottom rows tell me what you actually did, the top tells me someone likes you (or did at one time).

The mid-rows are kind of an attitude filter about PD - if you're a 1st Lt. with a 25 on your Red Service, or a Major with no Level II, it says
"something".  What that "something" is varies, and does not imply a negative or positive.

That's why I'm not a fan of short-stacking, because the ribbons tell a story as a whole, leave some out and you're leaving out pieces of the puzzle.

I havent thought about it like that but you are right. I have seen the same with some "career captains" who just dont care about doing anything other than what they do now. They are not bad people they just like the way things are for them. The only part I dont completly agree with is the "the top tells me someone likes you (or did at one time)", I view this more as someone took the time to do the writeup.


I have only come across a few that had enough to touch the top of the lapel. This was a combination of AD and CAP. I say wear everyone of you want. Be proud of it.

I believe it inspires our cadets and gets them to ask questions. There is a SER member who wears them all. He totals about 40.

[flyboy53]

Just a couple comments on two recent posts...

The Air Force pocket rocket can be earned by anyone who work on missles, whether the ICBM or Air to Air types. There are two different badges. One badge, more common and around since the 1960s, worn mostly by missile maintenance types, is the badge that has been used since it was developed. Years ago, operations types, like launch officers, were authorized a missle badge with a wreath in the center of the badge, called the operations designator. I guess you could say they felt the need for speed. There is a new badge called the Space and Missile Operations Badge, or Buzz Light Year badge, that has expanded criteria to include even Army personnel who have some sort of space-related function.

Another post related to ANG active duty types. The correct term for ANG is Title 32. The correct term for Air Force Reserve types is Title 10. Both relate to voluntary tours of active duty -- between 24 and 48 months -- and the difference relates to the Guard being a state function under the contol of a governor. I know, I was on a Title 10 tour for almost eight years.

When an ANG type goes on a title 32 tour, they are prohibited from wearing their state ribbons, Air Guard types and AFR types have two medals: The AF Reserve Meritorious Service Medal (a reserve good conduct medal) and the Armed Forces Reserve Medal. Eligibility for the AFRMSM stops and they begin active service. They then start the period required of a Good Conduct Medal (which, by the way was reinstated) while the AFRM continues. In some cases, this medal is worn with a "M" mobilization device to reflect a call-up during a national crisis.

[AlphaSigOU]

The Air Force pocket rocket can be earned by anyone who work on missles, whether the ICBM or Air to Air types. There are two different badges. One badge, more common and around since the 1960s, worn mostly by missile maintenance types, is the badge that has been used since it was developed. Years ago, operations types, like launch officers, were authorized a missle badge with a wreath in the center of the badge, called the operations designator. I guess you could say they felt the need for speed. There is a new badge called the Space and Missile Operations Badge, or Buzz Light Year badge, that has expanded criteria to include even Army personnel who have some sort of space-related function.

Or as some wags call it, the 'pocket rocket with the toilet seat'. 

Here in 'Kwajatraz', the primary agency is the U.S. Army Space and Missile Defense Command, so it's not unusual for some of the Army guys to be sporting black 'spwings' on their ACUs.

[ltcmark]

Just the ribbons, for all services mentioned.

So you probably counted a large number of ribbons that are no longer authorized for award, even though they show on the listing.

What's your source on the counts?

I used the ribbon checker at http://www.militarywives.com/. 

It was the best way, for me, to count the total on my computer screen.  I did do a spot check between a number of ribbon checker programs and it was close to the numbers I posted.  Either way, the active duty has a lot more ribbons than CAP will ever have.

[Hawk200]

When an ANG type goes on a title 32 tour, they are prohibited from wearing their state ribbons,

Interesting, and a bit different from the ArNG. Title 32 (Full time National Guard duty) is specifically mentioned as allowing state decs in 670-1. Kinda screwy that it's OK for Army, but not for Air.

Air Guard types and AFR types have two medals: The AF Reserve Meritorious Service Medal (a reserve good conduct medal) and the Armed Forces Reserve Medal. Eligibility for the AFRMSM stops and they begin active service. They then start the period required of a Good Conduct Medal (which, by the way was reinstated) while the AFRM continues. In some cases, this medal is worn with a "M" mobilization device to reflect a call-up during a national crisis.

Another side that shows as wierd. The ArNG version of the ARFMSM is the ARCAM (Army Reserve Component Achievement Medal). It's basically a Guard/Reserve version of a Good Conduct. Once activated for Title 10, eligibility for it stops completely. The time accrued is essentially "wiped", and it starts over once you come off Title 10. The downside is that the way the regs are written currently, a Guard soldier on Title 10 is not eligible for an Army Good Conduct, which for times of war is a yearly award. Even though our unit spent twelve and a half months on Title 10, the enlisted soldiers in our unit aren't eligible for it. A few have had some heartburn over it.

[Hawk200]

Using NORAD as an example:

The Commander of NORAD, General Victor "Gene" Renuart, Jr, USAF:

http://www.norad.mil/leaders/Bio_Gen_Renuart_Nov09.pdf

It's a lot, but thing is you don't even really need to read his bio to have an idea of where he's been and what he's done.

A ribbon rack is a resume, it's just worn rather than printed. On our side, the problem is having multiple ribbons that would tell the exact same thing as a single ribbon with multiple devices. Why do we need five ribbons to tell PD progression when one ribbon with four devices would do? It still reads the same. Unless someone has a real problem with simple math, then there's no practical reason for it.

Five ribbons is simply for the sake of having five ribbons. In this case, the more doesn't tell you anything different.

[spacecadet97]

Getting too what started this forum, I think that there should be a ribbon for Curry, then on for each of the milestone achievements.

[Eclipse]

On our side, the problem is having multiple ribbons that would tell the exact same thing as a single ribbon with multiple devices. Why do we need five ribbons to tell PD progression when one ribbon with four devices would do? It still reads the same. Unless someone has a real problem with simple math, then there's no practical reason for it.

Five ribbons is simply for the sake of having five ribbons. In this case, the more doesn't tell you anything different.

I'd have to agree with this - you can't get a Wilson unless you had a Garber before it - so wearing the highest only there makes sense.

[Hawk200]

I'd have to agree with this - you can't get a Wilson unless you had a Garber before it - so wearing the highest only there makes sense.

Just so I am clear on where you're coming from: Are you advocating only wearing the highest ribbon? Once you get a new award, the old comes off, and the new one goes on?

If that's what you're saying (note the if), I don't see the point. That would still be a separate ribbon for each level, hence five separate ribbon purchases, and reconfiguring your ribbon rack when you get something new.

I think it would be easier for a single ribbon, just add devices, in the same vein as the Army NCOPD and the Air Force PME ribbons.

[PhoenixRisen]

Getting too what started this forum, I think that there should be a ribbon for Curry, then on for each of the milestone achievements.

I have been wanting to see this for a while.  I'll agree that ribbons are a good reinforcement-type tool, and something a Cadet can look forward to (especially those in the lower ranks), but one per rank is simply too many, and redundant.

One for the Curry (completing "basic training"), and each of the phases.  That way, it places more emphasis on completing the whole phases themselves, and not just the specific promotions.  I would include that all ribbons would be worn; not just the highest one earned.

YMMV

[Spike]

^ We need to award Cadets with as much as possible.  To them that is what the program is about until they get older and realize it was really about learning to be a leader.  Ribbons for Cadets should be left alone.  However, when Senior Member Joe Blow has is 14 CAP Ribbons and his 15 Air Force ribbons.......that is excessive.  Perhaps limiting military ribbons to one service, one commendation and one of personal choice would be helpful here.

[PhoenixRisen]

^ We need to award Cadets with as much as possible.

And that's where we differ, I guess.  While awards are good (milestone awards, commendations, service ribbons, etc), I feel that one ribbon per rank devalues them.  I just don't see the need to "double layer" the cadet program progression.  Either work for rank or ribbons.

On the note of "trying to award younger cadets as much as possible because that's what the program is about for them", There's no difference between a young cadet thinking, "Man... I can't wait 'till I earn alot of stripes like that Chief over there", and "Man, I can't wait 'till I earn a lot of ribbons like that Chief over there"... but why do we need both?

[Spike]

^ There are 13 total ribbons in the Cadet Program should the Cadet make it to Cadet Colonel.  ADD 1 more for the Mandatory Encampment and you get 14.

So, you get 5 rows of 3 ribbons or 4 rows of 4 ribbons.

The bling received with each achievement is very important, and National did conduct research about 10 years ago that said the same thing.

This is a non issue.  If you only award ribbons with milestones you get 5 ribbons   encampment.  Is that what you are suggesting??  2 Rows of Ribbons is not a motivator.  Cadets are motivated by the ribbons we currently have.  Period. 

[BillB]

In the 1970's the National CAC went to the National Board with the recommendayion that only milestone ribbons be worn. When a milestone was earned the non-milestone ribbons leading up to that be removed. This places more value to the ribbons the cadet can earn. The cadet still can wear any activity or encampment ribbon plus red service, and mission ribbons. This proposal from the cadets came up at least twice that I'm aware opf and shot down by the National Board.

[arajca]

In the 1970's the National CAC went to the National Board with the recommendayion that only milestone ribbons be worn. When a milestone was earned the non-milestone ribbons leading up to that be removed. This places more value to the ribbons the cadet can earn. The cadet still can wear any activity or encampment ribbon plus red service, and mission ribbons. This proposal from the cadets came up at least twice that I'm aware opf and shot down by the National Board.

The last time, the NB not only shot it down, they also removed the "some" option for cadets wearing the service dress.

[PHall]

^ There are 13 total ribbons in the Cadet Program should the Cadet make it to Cadet Colonel.  ADD 1 more for the Mandatory Encampment and you get 14.

So, you get 5 rows of 3 ribbons or 4 rows of 4 ribbons.

The bling received with each achievement is very important, and National did conduct research about 10 years ago that said the same thing.

This is a non issue.  If you only award ribbons with milestones you get 5 ribbons   encampment.  Is that what you are suggesting??  2 Rows of Ribbons is not a motivator.  Cadets are motivated by the ribbons we currently have.  Period.

You underestimate cadets. Ribbons don't motovate them, it's those stripes. They want to get more rank so they can the one to boss people around.

[PhoenixRisen]

^ There are 13 total ribbons in the Cadet Program should the Cadet make it to Cadet Colonel.  ADD 1 more for the Mandatory Encampment and you get 14.

So, you get 5 rows of 3 ribbons or 4 rows of 4 ribbons.

The bling received with each achievement is very important, and National did conduct research about 10 years ago that said the same thing.

This is a non issue.   If you only award ribbons with milestones you get 5 ribbons   encampment.  Is that what you are suggesting??  2 Rows of Ribbons is not a motivator.  Cadets are motivated by the ribbons we currently have.  Period.

Well excuse me for bringing my opinion into the thread.  I'll be sure to consult you on what's right or wrong before I do it again.   

I don't know what your experience with the Cadet program is, but you have no authority to speak as if you're speaking for each and every Cadet (and prospective Cadet).  I'll tell ya, when I joined at 12, it was neither the ribbons or rank (though I did thin it'd be cool to be saluted).  It was the BDUs.  Truthfully, I hated wearing the blues (and still do, really... it's not all that comfortable of a uniform IMO).

[Major Carrales]

Don't mess with it, its fine as it is.

The nature of the Modern Cadet Program has been so since it was first introduced over 40 years ago.  The current model is that you get a ribbon and a stripe.  I can understand the justification...you complete the achievement and are given the rank.  It is a progressive graduation through a program.

Now, if you look below you will see that a CAP Spaatz Cadet is much more conservatively arranged than a JROTC person...and, you know what, it doesn't matter much because these cadets pictured below are in two different programs and have achieved much...

Versus...

It is fine as it is. 

[Hawk200]

Don't mess with it, its fine as it is.

The nature of the Modern Cadet Program has been so since it was first introduced over 40 years ago.  The current model is that you get a ribbon and a stripe.  I can understand the justification...you complete the achievement and are given the rank.  It is a progressive graduation through a program.

Now, if you look below you will see that a CAP Spaatz Cadet is much more conservatively arranged than a JROTC person...and, you know what, it doesn't matter much because these cadets pictured below are in two different programs and have achieved much...

{removed for space}

It is fine as it is.

I would definitely have to say we're better off where we are.

23 ribbons, 5 suspension medals, 3 neck medals, four badges, six tabs, and two cords compared to 21 ribbons and a cord. All things being relative, we're better off as we are.

[Major Carrales]

Don't mess with it, its fine as it is.

The nature of the Modern Cadet Program has been so since it was first introduced over 40 years ago.  The current model is that you get a ribbon and a stripe.  I can understand the justification...you complete the achievement and are given the rank.  It is a progressive graduation through a program.

Now, if you look below you will see that a CAP Spaatz Cadet is much more conservatively arranged than a JROTC person...and, you know what, it doesn't matter much because these cadets pictured below are in two different programs and have achieved much...

{removed for space}

It is fine as it is.

I would definitely have to say we're better off where we are.

23 ribbons, 5 suspension medals, 3 neck medals, four badges, six tabs, and two cords compared to 21 ribbons and a cord. All things being relative, we're better off as we are.

Oops...sorry, Hawk, that was a JROTC Cadet major.  The point, however, is made.  I think we have just enough ribbons for awards and achievements. I support no additions or substations.

Cadet have access to the Cadet Achievements, awards and decorations of activity and service. Everyone of those is meaningful, to a cadet who rises to Wright Brothers and has to exit due to forces beyond the control of reality, that is their achievement.  To strip them of the others is disheartening and unnecessary.  Either an achievement like Arnold is worthy to remain or it is not.  Forcing them to remove it at Feik is wasteful.