When to wear the Blues?

[JohnKachenmeister]

+1 to what my bro' Smokey just said.

"Fair winds and following seas."

And... Smokey, when California slides into the ocean, I hope you are vacationing out of state. 

[Eclipse]

There are some here that if you asked them what day of the week it is , they would do their best to tear you a new one and try to cite a twisted meaning to a reg to justify it.

Who's calendar?  Solar? Lunar? Fiscal? Chinese? Gregorian?
Which side of the dateline?  Plus, there are temporal theories which hold that all time is non-linear and every moment occurs simultaneously.

NHQ is skating on thin ice thinking it can ignore this issue and leave it to the membership to decide on their own.  How long before we start losing pilots who would have to buy their own calendars?

[Major Carrales]

When a CAP Officer of Cadet asks me if they can wear their uniform to an activity, I weight each decision with care.  If a cadet asks, for example, if he can wear his uniform at the family Thanksgiving Dinner or to welcome a sibling/cousin I will say yes.  I if have to issue a memo from now on making it "an official CAP activity" or "Squadron Function" I guess I will do it.

River your disingenuous "insurance" argument is as much blarney as I have ever heard.  There is no basis for it, only your beliefs.

Shortfield, you are yet to apologize.  It is now of record that you truly offended someone with your less than considerate words and accusations of "trolling for salutes."  One does not have to say "exact words" to insinuate things.   

Making the case that CAP Officers are "trolling for salutes" insinuates that they are somehow "posers/pretenders" on some sort of ego trip.  That is what smacks of offense.

CAP Officers are CAP Officers, neither superior nor inferior to USAF Officers...different in the fact they the two have totally different (yet equal) inherent worth.  In other words they are what they are, nothing more or less.

I am, as I have stated, going to make CAP visible whether I have to do it myself.  No one will ever know who we are if we are never seen.  It a new century, friends, and if we continue the low visibility that some of you recommend, we will die of bloodletting.

So, all of you who read this be it today or as an old thread long moved down the list.  Wear you uniform as often as possible where appropriate.  Seek the appropriate permission.  Squadron Commanders be vigilant yet LIBERAL with said permissions.  Let the people see us.  Members, wear your uniform correctly and smartly.

If all that is done, then the point of contention in this thread is moot.

[SarDragon]

Instead of "trolling for salutes", substitute the more accurate, and less offensive, "salute magnet". That certainly better represents my thoughts about the situation I described.

Short Field, would you agree?

[Major Carrales]

Instead of "trolling for salutes", substitute the more accurate, and less offensive, "salute magnet". That certainly better represents my thoughts about the situation I described.

Short Field, would you agree?

Ah...enter the politically correct discussion.  Calling a cat a feline does not change what it truly is...a small quadruped that meows.   

[flyerthom]

Ah...enter the politically correct discussion.  Calling a cat a feline does not change what it truly is...a small quadruped that meows.   

Civil Air Patrol kittehs disagree!
Mission Ready Go bag

Becker DF?

Furst kitteh is Buddy Cat My House Squadron Commander!


Obvious compromise - Corporate Blazer Uniform, Represents CAP in a positive professional light and not a salute magnet.

[Major Carrales]

Obvious compromise - Corporate Blazer Uniform, Represents CAP in a positive professional light and not a salute magnet.

What I was going to say...

A better one would be the CSU, a purely CAP Style uniform.  The Blazer Uniform works, however, (and this is opinion) it is one of our most "generic," off the rack at Montgomery Ward...or J.C. Penny's (Brooks Brothers it ain't), and it has a badge.  Wouldn't want soon to be commissioned FBI agents to think that we were agents of some clandestine Federal Agency...the "RED PROP Bureau."

It seems, according to some of the discussion from some of you, that if we are afraid to wear USAF style uniforms...then we might as well remove them from our uniform lexicon and go full CSU.  After all, if this situation is as offensive to some of you ,then why even wear a USAF Style uniform at all?  In fact, why not just declare independence from the USAF and become "Federal Volunteers- Aviation branch."  I hear that is in vogue these days...at least according rumor.

Imagine that...no Air Force connection at all.  Securing our own funding, wear the CSU like police, EMS and fire do with no need to ever have to worry about being saluted by anyone.

What I will say instead...

Civil Air Patrol kittehs...BIGGER, FASTER, STRONGER!!!

[RiverAux]

River your disingenuous "insurance" argument is as much blarney as I have ever heard.  There is no basis for it, only your beliefs.

That was not put forth as an argument in this particular situation, it was a description of how I personally go about deciding whether or not something is a CAP activity or not.  As I said several times the reg does give a lot of leeway to commanders in declaring something a CAP activity or not.  Others may use different criteria.

If a very experienced competent CAP officer can legitimately believe that a family Thanksgiving dinner can be considered an official CAP activity at which a CAP uniform is appropriate, I am quite frankly dumbfounded and left without anything more to say on the subject, a position in which I rarely find myself. 

[Short Field]

Instead of "trolling for salutes", substitute the more accurate, and less offensive, "salute magnet".

That actually described my thoughts on it to begin with but it took a while to come up with the right term.  And I did send a PM to Walkman over this.   

[Cecil DP]

Lt Walker's wear of the uniform at his daughters graduation is far more appropriate, than one member's posting of wearing a mess dress while on a caribbean cruise, which was posted about a year ago.

[Major Carrales]

If a very experienced competent CAP officer can legitimately believe that a family Thanksgiving dinner can be considered an official CAP activity at which a CAP uniform is appropriate, I am quite frankly dumbfounded and left without anything more to say on the subject, a position in which I rarely find myself.

Here is where you fundamentally miss the point.  CAP is a big part of some people lives while an afternoon and weekend hobby to some.  CAP is a bountiful cornucopia of community service worthy of pride to some and simply free flying to others.

CAP holds a special place in the lives, so much so that they wish to share that with others, of some and free flying so you don't have to rent the local Cessna 182 dry to others.

When I joined CAP I was the only CAP Officer within 90 miles of my home.  I drove to Brownsville, over 200 miles away to attend weekly meetings and drive, presently, to the Squadron I command some 80 miles...and I am not a even a pilot.  I do three CAP meetings a week in two different cities.  I work in Aviation, Cadet Programs, Emergency Services and countless other Civil Air Patrol promoting Public Affairs activities.

I personally purchase a kings ransom's worth of patches, rank insignia and sometimes even the membership (repaid sometimes a quarter at a time) for cadets from backgrounds that likely will make Horatio Alger weep with pity...and on a Middle School teacher's salary.

CAP is growing in South Texas...because it is being watered with Public Affairs and simply being visible.  We grew a unit from three active members to one with 5 mission pilots in two years...and that was without an aircraft and with the nearest Form 5 and 91 check pilot 100 miles north of us and nearly 250 miles south of us.

Sorry, you find yourself speechless at the idea that a person cannot officially support CAP in venues other than airshows or on meeting nights and SARexs.  Any Senior or Cadet that asks to wear a uniform to support CAP in a venue of solemn, respectful and visible forum (be it a banquet, dance or the like) deserves consideration by a Squadron Commander to be allowed to represent CAP.  It is then the Squadron Commander's prerogative to make the choice...not yours, or mine or the Senior or Cadet doing the asking.

Until we can somehow "normalize" the idea of CAP officers and cadets in the world our Public Affairs and Recruiting Officers are forced to battle the "Civil Air Patrol...never heard of it?!" phenomenon.  And, if you and the likes of you refuse to allow that, you had better keep a silent keyboard when I hear you and other commenting on dismal CAP recruiting numbers and why people (clients) don't seem to want to call CAP.

This is not about ego...about someone trying to garner salutes or feel important.  It is, rather, a first step in bringing CAP out of the shadows.  And BEING a CAP that people recognize as much as they do the BOY SCOUTS or RED CROSS.

Be speechless, if you will, but understand this...and understand it well...I care deeply about this organization and will not allow the narrow-mindedness of some cause our organization to stagnate and be that TREE that forever falls in the forest.

[Hawk200]

^^^^^^^^


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[DC]

What I was going to say...

A better one would be the CSU, a purely CAP Style uniform.  The Blazer Uniform works, however, (and this is opinion) it is one of our most "generic," off the rack at Montgomery Ward...or J.C. Penny's (Brooks Brothers it ain't), and it has a badge.  Wouldn't want soon to be commissioned FBI agents to think that we were agents of some clandestine Federal Agency...the "RED PROP Bureau."

Maybe you've forgotten that the main contention here is that wearing any uniform resembling an Air Force officer's uniform would:
                a)Not be appropriate to the situation and
                b)Attract salutes from newly minted Sailors like mosquitoes to a blood bank.

The CSU could potentially look even more like an AF uniform than the actual AF style. The CSU uses actual blue AF officer rank slides, has a blue nameplate, and shares pants and headgear with the actual USAF uniform. The shirt is the wrong color, but are brand new sailors not used to seeing AF personnel and uniforms going to notice?

I still fail to see the point of wearing a CAP uniform to an unrelated military function...

[Major Carrales]

What I was going to say...

A better one would be the CSU, a purely CAP Style uniform.  The Blazer Uniform works, however, (and this is opinion) it is one of our most "generic," off the rack at Montgomery Ward...or J.C. Penny's (Brooks Brothers it ain't), and it has a badge.  Wouldn't want soon to be commissioned FBI agents to think that we were agents of some clandestine Federal Agency...the "RED PROP Bureau."

Maybe you've forgotten that the main contention here is that wearing any uniform resembling an Air Force officer's uniform would:
                a)Not be appropriate to the situation and
                b)Attract salutes from newly minted Sailors like mosquitoes to a blood bank.

The CSU could potentially look even more like an AF uniform than the actual AF style. The CSU uses actual blue AF officer rank slides, has a blue nameplate, and shares pants and headgear with the actual USAF uniform. The shirt is the wrong color, but are brand new sailors not used to seeing AF personnel and uniforms going to notice?

I still fail to see the point of wearing a CAP uniform to an unrelated military function...

Those issues are clear to me, but I reject the notion of impropriety.  It is a CIVIL AIR PATROL UNIFORM, not a "cheap USAF Knock Off" as your words insinuate.  We don't merely LOOK like USAF Officers...we ARE CIVIL AIR PATROL OFFICERS.  That is a point that people keep missing and it is fundamental to everything we do. 

STOP LOOKING AT US AS AN INFERIOR VERSION of the USAF, we are CIVIL AIR PATROL...you people need to get that into your understanding.

That a sailor does not identify it as such is a testament to the point I am making, we are unknowns among the people that should know us.  I have seen Fire Fighter's Uniforms that use blue rank sleeves and white shirts.  Can we assume then that such a clad person wearing oak leaves will get a salute?

And, by the way, it is not a blasphemy for a CAP Officer to be saluted, it in no way cheapens the NAVY or other service...one simply need return the salute respectfully and offer their best 30 second CAP Crash Course (if they feel it necessary). 

It is never my intention to be saluted by anyone in the active duty or reserve,  when it happens I offer the action stated above.  I have had several even inquire about CAP and some even join.  But I suppose that is somehow sacrilege.

The CSU is a pure CAP Uniform designed for CAP and approved by our CAP-USAF authorities.  if it was ever adopted as the sole uniform, it would be the CAP Uniform specifically.   We are Civil Air Patrol, we wear our prescribed uniforms.  I can only assume that the charge of impropriety stems from the fact that y'all think the majority in CAP somehow want to "HAM it UP."  Such an assumption is ludicrous at best and at worst insulting.

Until we are free from this fear of being seen we will continue to have the issues that we see that are sapping CAP of its potential.   The military needs to see us, they need to see that potential.  A CAP officer in sharp uniform supporting a member entering their branch of the service sends the message that there "is, in fact a CIVIL AIR PATROL" and it is visible and available.  More than that, that is shows solemn respect for those that are entered into its ranks.

[SarDragon]

Instead of "trolling for salutes", substitute the more accurate, and less offensive, "salute magnet". That certainly better represents my thoughts about the situation I described.

Short Field, would you agree?

Ah...enter the politically correct discussion.  Calling a cat a feline does not change what it truly is...a small quadruped that meows.   

I wasn't looking for PC, I was trying to more accurately describe the situation. "Trolling for salutes" implies behaviour by the person wearing the uniform. "Salute magnet" describes the almost Pavlovian behaviour of the recruits seeing the uniform. Very different, IMHO.

[DC]

What I was going to say...

A better one would be the CSU, a purely CAP Style uniform.  The Blazer Uniform works, however, (and this is opinion) it is one of our most "generic," off the rack at Montgomery Ward...or J.C. Penny's (Brooks Brothers it ain't), and it has a badge.  Wouldn't want soon to be commissioned FBI agents to think that we were agents of some clandestine Federal Agency...the "RED PROP Bureau."

Maybe you've forgotten that the main contention here is that wearing any uniform resembling an Air Force officer's uniform would:
                a)Not be appropriate to the situation and
                b)Attract salutes from newly minted Sailors like mosquitoes to a blood bank.

The CSU could potentially look even more like an AF uniform than the actual AF style. The CSU uses actual blue AF officer rank slides, has a blue nameplate, and shares pants and headgear with the actual USAF uniform. The shirt is the wrong color, but are brand new sailors not used to seeing AF personnel and uniforms going to notice?

I still fail to see the point of wearing a CAP uniform to an unrelated military function...

Those issues are clear to me, but I reject the notion of impropriety.  It is a CIVIL AIR PATROL UNIFORM, not a "cheap USAF Knock Off" as your words insinuate.  We don't merely LOOK like USAF Officers...we ARE CIVIL AIR PATROL OFFICERS.  That is a point that people keep missing and it is fundamental to everything we do. 

STOP LOOKING AT US AS AN INFERIOR VERSION of the USAF, we are CIVIL AIR PATROL...you people need to get that into your understanding.

That a sailor does not identify it as such is a testament to the point I am making, we are unknowns among the people that should know us.  I have seen Fire Fighter's Uniforms that use blue rank sleeves and white shirts.  Can we assume then that such a clad person wearing oak leaves will get a salute?

And, by the way, it is not a blasphemy for a CAP Officer to be saluted, it in no way cheapens the NAVY or other service...one simply need return the salute respectfully and offer their best 30 second CAP Crash Course (if they feel it necessary). 

It is never my intention to be saluted by anyone in the active duty or reserve,  when it happens I offer the action stated above.  I have had several even inquire about CAP and some even join.  But I suppose that is somehow sacrilege.

The CSU is a pure CAP Uniform designed for CAP and approved by our CAP-USAF authorities.  if it was ever adopted as the sole uniform, it would be the CAP Uniform specifically.   We are Civil Air Patrol, we wear our prescribed uniforms.  I can only assume that the charge of impropriety stems from the fact that y'all think the majority in CAP somehow want to "HAM it UP."  Such an assumption is ludicrous at best and at worst insulting.

Until we are free from this fear of being seen we will continue to have the issues that we see that are sapping CAP of its potential.   The military needs to see us, they need to see that potential.  A CAP officer in sharp uniform supporting a member entering their branch of the service sends the message that there "is, in fact a CIVIL AIR PATROL" and it is visible and available.  More than that, that is shows solemn respect for those that are entered into its ranks.

Never did I suggest that we are somehow inferior to the USAF or USAF personnel.

Nor did I say that it's blasphemy for a CAP officer to be saluted. However, trying to be friendly and meet all of your kid's new buddies in the military is going to be difficult if they aren't comfortable in your presence unless they are standing at attention.

What is so difficult about the concept that you can't just wear your uniform whenever you feel like it? It has nothing to do with an inferiority complex, it has to do with appropriately and responsibly wearing your uniform. There are times when you should be in uniform, and times when you shouldn't, and going to a personal event that just happens to be military related isn't one. You cannot just randomly decide to 'raise awareness' by wearing your uniform to a Navy boot camp graduation, Thanksgiving dinner, or any other non-CAP related function. 

[MAJORZ04]

I wore my CAP Blue uniform to my fathers funeral, as He requested.
My Dad was a retired US Navy Senior Chief Petty Officer.  At the
funeral service I was treated as a Lt Col by all who attended, both
civilian and military.  I treated all those military people with great respect and dignity right back.
Just as my Dad, The Chief, taught me ..... It is not the uniform that
makes the person, it is the person that makes the uniform.
We have a member of our squardon, a Major, that wears his uniform
to his sons Winging ceremony (they are Officers in the USAF).  His sons wanted him to do that, as they are proud of him and his service to America, thru CAP.
I do think that we should check with our chain of command before wearing our USAF/CAP dress uniform to a non-CAP function, first!

[brasda91]

As I've read each post I've gone back and forth on this.

On one hand, I wouldn't have a problem with wearing the uniform to graduation.  It is a military graduation by the way, not a high school graduation.

On the other hand, I understand the regulation side of it and can agree with it too.  Reg's are specific as to "CAP business".

I agree with Sparky's emotional side.  I feel the same way about CAP.  Although I would not approve a member to wear their uniform to a Thanksgiving Dinner with the family.  Sorry, don't get that one.

Salute magnets?  Trolling for salutes?  I understand the difference in the two, but who really cares that you may have to salute 30 times?  They are not saluting you, they are saluting the grade.  If you don't want to return a salute or if you simply "wave off" the salute, then wear the polo.

I would expect there to be several moms and dads in attendance that are active duty enlisted or officers, in their uniform.

I think I would have to go with the reg's on this one and say no.  I understand wanting to promote CAP, and I don't have a problem wiith that, you are still not conducting CAP business.

[jimmydeanno]

I've noticed that we make a huge difference in allowances for cadets versus seniors.

I permit my cadets to wear their uniforms for all sorts of functions.  Family weddings, funerals, school events, etc. 

[Prospector]

Kudos to Maj. Carrales again for his enthusiasm and support for CAP and his common sense in this discussion, and to everyone else here that have remained respectful to each other.

There are a couple of disturbing points to make here and to clarify a bit:

1. CAP as the Air Force Auxilliary is an organ of the Air Force body and rightfully has a place wherever regular Air Force troops may be found.

2. As such, it is entirely proper for a CAP Officer to wear their U.S. Air Force approved Air Force "style" or CAP CSU uniform to any event where other branches of the military will be represented in similar uniforms.

3. Any formal social event that has a military or civil service theme or component to it (and especially something like a military graduation, promotion, retirement, or other ceremony) is an inherent CAP business activity.

What CAP business activity could this be, you ask?

The answer is that it falls directly under the activity of Public Affairs and does not need to be "specifically ordered".

When you wear your uniform appropriately on these occasions, you are directly performing the CAP Public Affairs activity. How you conduct yourself while in uniform not only reflects on you, but on CAP, so if you don't want to engage in properly rendering a salute back if given to you by a lower ranking individual, then by all means, don't wear the uniform. Save yourself and CAP the blowback.

Of course, if there is any doubt at all as to the appropriateness of wearing your CAP dress uniform to an event, here are some sample questions to ask yourself to ensure you are doing the right thing:

1. In the invitation to the event, does the dress code specified specifically say military dress, suit and tie, or semi-formal attire is expected?

2. Is the event clearly a military or civil service sponsored event?

3. If not specifically sponsored, is the event being held to recognize members of the military or civil service?

4. Will there be other branches of the military represented in uniform at the event?

5. For a civil service event, will there be police, fire, or other such officers in attendance wearing their dress uniforms?

6. Would your squadron commander wear their uniform if they were attending?

7. If still unsure, can the coordinator of the event be contacted prior to the event to ask if uniforms are appropriate for the occasion?

If the answer to a majority of these questions is YES, then you can't go wrong.

Now if CAPM 39-1 is ambiguous in this regard and members need further instruction, then I submit that it is not the members who are lacking here, it is CAP NHQ and each squadron chain of command. In the case of CAP NHQ, they should clarify CAPM 39-1 with language to prevent ambiguity as much as possible. (I think a new version of CAPM 39-1 is in the works as we speak - but I'm not 100% positive)

In the case of each squadron chain of command, they should actively seek out any confusion their troops have, and hold training sessions to overcome the confusion, and provide the feedback to NHQ.

Thanks!