When to wear the Blues?

[Walkman]

(I'm sure this is a simple thing, but 39-1 was a little vague to me. I did a search, but wasn't able to quite find what I needed.)

The wording in 39-1 says we can wear CAP uniforms on military installations. Just to be clear, My daughter is looking into the Naval reserves. Would it be correct and appropriate to wear the AF blues to her Boot Camp graduation?

Also, I saw this in an old thread about wearing mess dress on a cruise:

CAPP 151, Para 11. Sec. g. "If you wear your uniform to civilian social functions,
you must wear the service dress uniform, or mess dress
uniform, or uniform that parallels the civilian dress for the
occasion, that is, coat and tie. You may not wear fatigues or
flight suits to civilian functions."

There is a yearly dinner and musical show in town that celebrates the military, law enforcement and firefighters. During the show they ask for people who active duty or veterans to stand while they play the theme song. Then they call out anyone who has served in other military branches and organizations (CAP will be mentioned in the listing of military organizations), any law enforcement organizations or fire fighting organizations to stand. I've seen active duty military wear service dress to the dinner. Would it be correct & appropriate for me to wear the AF blues to this next year ?

(BTW - NOT trying to spark another contentious uniform debate here...)

[JohnKachenmeister]

Yes, it is proper to wear your AF blues prodly at the recognition dinner.  It is authorized to wear your AF blues at your daughter's Navy boot camp graduation, but remember, the ceremony is about her, and you wearing the uniform of a sister-service officer MAY steal some of what should be her spotlight.

It would, however, make for some great family pictures.

Your call.

[MIKE]

CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1. is a bit more restrictive than your CAPP 151 cite would appear to be.

[RiverAux]

I don't think it would be appropriate to wear the CAP uniform to the graduation since there is no real link to CAP at all. 

For the dinner, if CAP and CAP members have been been invited to attend, then yes I think it would be appropriate as a CAP activity, just as if some group had asked CAP to send a speaker. 

[Eclipse]

I wouldn't see any issue with either example, especially in the latter case where they are actually
recognizing CAP.

Be prepared to use your saluting arm on the RTC.  They don't get many that many officers on that side of the base, and you'll likely be the only one in that shade of blue.

For me, unless I'm there in an official capacity, I usually try to avoid activities specifically geared for veterans such as Memorial Day or Veteran's day, simply because that's "their day".  But other ceremonies like Patriots day, which are more geared to anyone in public service, I'll wear my uniform proudly.

[Walkman]

Cool! Thanks y'all!

[Major Carrales]

I don't think it would be appropriate to wear the CAP uniform to the graduation since there is no real link to CAP at all. 

For the dinner, if CAP and CAP members have been been invited to attend, then yes I think it would be appropriate as a CAP activity, just as if some group had asked CAP to send a speaker.

I'm sorry, River, I cannot agree.  We need to be visible.  Until we get over this fear of being seen we never will be.

As for official permission and, if granted, wear your uniform with pride.

[Fifinella]

In addition to what the regs say, and perhaps you've already done this, you might want to ask your daughter whether she has a preference regarding you wearing your CAP uniform to her graduation.  Just my .02

[Eclipse]

I don't think it would be appropriate to wear the CAP uniform to the graduation since there is no real link to CAP at all. 

For the dinner, if CAP and CAP members have been been invited to attend, then yes I think it would be appropriate as a CAP activity, just as if some group had asked CAP to send a speaker.

I'm sorry, River, I cannot agree.  We need to be visible.  Until we get over this fear of being seen we never will be.

+1, and in this case CAP won't be an "unknown" - we have a decent presence on the NTC and they know us on the RTC from the encampment.

In addition to what the regs say, and perhaps you've already done this, you might want to ask your daughter whether she has a preference regarding you wearing your CAP uniform to her graduation.  Just my .02

+1 there too.

[Short Field]

Wearing your uniform to her graduation is just trolling for salutes.  Any friends she may want to introduce your to will be in a brace and saluting as your get near them. 

Remember - these kids are just finishing basic training, and every one of them will feel obligated to salute you each time you turn around.

[majdomke]

Here are a couple examples of when I've allowed my cadets to wear their uniforms.

CAP Birthday/Anniversary - To school
Squadron Open House Day - To School
Graduation from Middle School/High School
Funeral for one of my cadets' dad who was one of the Oakland PD who were gunned down

As always, they were the service dress uniform, never BDU's.

On a side note, WIWAC, we wore our blues every year on CAP's anniversary to school. A great recruiting opportunity.

[Major Carrales]

Wearing your uniform to her graduation is just trolling for salutes.  Any friends she may want to introduce your to will be in a brace and saluting as your get near them. 

Remember - these kids are just finishing basic training, and every one of them will feel obligated to salute you each time you turn around.

Don't be ridiculous..."trolling for salutes" indeed.  I suggest you apologize to the original threadster and to everyone here who takes CAP seriously for misspeaking or making assumptions to which you know nothing substantial.

Honestly, we are members of the Civil Air Patrol, we should not be afraid of it.  Until we get over this "inferiority complex" that people seem to have about CAP we will never be able to take our place among the communitarians and volunteers of this Nation.

We do a good deal for our nation and we do not deserve to hide in the shadows because we think we are somehow less than the sum of our parts.

I am, as of now, becoming the greatest supporter of a visible CAP.

[Major Carrales]

Here are a couple examples of when I've allowed my cadets to wear their uniforms.

CAP Birthday/Anniversary - To school
Squadron Open House Day - To School
Graduation from Middle School/High School
Funeral for one of my cadets' dad who was one of the Oakland PD who were gunned down

As always, they were the service dress uniform, never BDU's.

On a side note, WIWAC, we wore our blues every year on CAP's anniversary to school. A great recruiting opportunity.

At our Middle School, Tuesday is Blues day and Thursday is BDU.  The meeting occur after school at 1610 hrs, Tuesday is normally class and Thursday is some sort of ES activity/work day.

[Short Field]

Don't be ridiculous..."trolling for salutes" indeed.  I suggest you apologize to the original threadster and to everyone here who takes CAP seriously for misspeaking or making assumptions to which you know nothing substantial.

Chill out!!   I didn't say he was trolling for salutes - I said to wear his uniform to a basic graduation ceremony is trolling for salutes.    Sorry but for him to wear a military style uniform with officer rank and "blend in" is just not going to happen.   Every one of these kids is primed and ready to freeze up and pop a salute at anything that looks like officer rank.    It is his daughter's day, not his day, let her have it.   Wear civies, blend in, and enjoy the day.  It is NOT a CAP function.

Go to Lackland AFB some Sunday afternoon in your CAP uniform and walk down the sidewalk a few blocks from the Base Theater when it lets on some Sunday afternoon.    You will spend all your time returning salutes.  BTDT and I was only a Cadet at the time but once the first Airman saluted, none of the rest were willing to make a mistake and not salute.   

[Major Carrales]

Don't be ridiculous..."trolling for salutes" indeed.  I suggest you apologize to the original threadster and to everyone here who takes CAP seriously for misspeaking or making assumptions to which you know nothing substantial.

Chill out!!   I didn't say he was trolling for salutes - I said to wear his uniform to a basic graduation ceremony is trolling for salutes.    Sorry but for him to wear a military style uniform with officer rank and "blend in" is just not going to happen.   Every one of these kids is primed and ready to freeze up and pop a salute at anything that looks like officer rank.    It is his daughter's day, not his day, let her have it.   Wear civies, blend in, and enjoy the day.  It is NOT a CAP function.

Go to Lackland AFB some Sunday afternoon in your CAP uniform and walk down the sidewalk a few blocks from the Base Theater when it lets on some Sunday afternoon.    You will spend all your time returning salutes.  BTDT and I was only a Cadet at the time but once the first Airman saluted, none of the rest were willing to make a mistake and not salute.

This occasion I prefer not to "chill out," and am still soliciting of you an apology for what I consider an extremely insulting remark that smacks of the issues I mentioned in my above post.

I find that CAP is a big part of many people's lives....a part people want to share with others.  I see no lambasting if a volunteer firefighter,  firefighter proper, policeman or other uniformed community servant wears their uniform to a function...why would that be any different for Civil Air Patrol officers?  The correct answer is that it should not.

Until CAP personnel can embrace what it is to be a CAP Officer, uniform and all, then there will always be this indecision that plagues us.  How can we put forth our best effort and get our good name and deeds out...recruit of people interested in service...and be visible in our communities if people are ashamed of CAP Officership?

I can tell you that most CAP Officers do not seek, or "troll" as you say, for salutes.  Most respectfully return the salute and then explain their status to the initiant of the salute.  If a Lackland Airman renders a salute to a CAP Officer, then that is the time to tell them what CAP is. 

I don't, in CAP uniform, merely wear something that "looks like officer rank," I am a CAP Officer.  Until we establish what that is to people and in a manner that reflect CAP Officership, then we will ALWAYS BE SECOND RATE.  CAP Officers are not inferior USAF OFFICERS or POSERS/PRETENTERS (as your words insinuate) we are what we are...Officers of the CAP. And until people are willing to define that as it is, we will create our own malformed appearance in the minds of others through this self-manifested inferiority complex.

I submit to you that the activity is a CAP ACTIVITY, this individual is representing CAP at a function that means a lot to him.  Its an opportunity to show people we are here, that CAP is an entity.  No, we are not there to "troll salutes," but instead to work something we value as a service to Community, State and Nation into other aspects of our life.

If it seems like I am passionate about this, then rest assured that I am.  The problem that I see is that people tend to relate CAP in terms of the USAF, when in fact CAP is very much its own thing that NEEDS to be defined by us.  Yes, we serve the Air Force, but we are the Civil Air Patrol.  In that, let it be known what we have value that is inherent based on what we do in ES, AE and CAP.  Comparisons to the military, especially the USAF, is a traditional "apples to oranges" argument.

I hope Walkman solicits and gets permission from his commanding officer (Wing Commander if necessary) to represent CAP at this obviously solemn function for his family.  If he needs a letter of support to his Commander from a fellow Squadron Commander, he can have it from me by noon if he gives me his e-mail address.

We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!  We cannot do that if we hide what we are. 

[SarDragon]

Sparky, I was on AD in the Navy, stationed on an Air Base, and in CAP at the same time. In spite of my desire to advertise CAP as an organization, I was reluctant to wear my CAP uniform in any manner not directly associated with a CAP activity. The Navy enlisted folks who worked with me were confused when they saw me wearing officer rank in a blue uniform, and the AF enlisted were unsure whether to render a salute or not.

Some who did decide to salute would engage in a practice called "tag teaming", a practice not reserved for just CAP folks. The "perps" walk down the sidewalk about 8 or 10 paces apart, and salute one after another, just far enough apart to necessitate individual salutes from the officer. It was courtesy gone wild.

Being at any recruit training event in an officer uniform is just as bad, and something I would discourage in the situation above.

Trolling might be a little strong, but that's what it ends up being, someone walking around getting a salute every couple of minutes. I, for one, don't feel compelled to wear out my right arm unnecessarily.

YMMV.

[wuzafuzz]

Obviously opinions vary, but I will share that my son graduates from Marine Corps boot camp in October.  Although I teased him about wearing my CAP uniform to his graduation, I am not planning to do so.  Why?  It is HIS day, and I am there to congratulate him on his accomplishment.  On that day I will not be seeking to draw attention to myself or to advertise CAP.  I'll simply be a proud Dad on October 9th. 

I appreciate Major Carrales' position and do not disagree.  We are CAP officers, no more, no less.  I also agree many freshly minted Marines would experience unecessary awkwardness around me if I wear my uniform.

As for comparisons to other uniformed professionals, all I can say is I didn't wear my police uniform unless I was actually on duty or testifying in court.  I didn't wear it to community service fairs or similar functions unless I was working at them.  It just wasn't done.  Training days?  We usually wore department polo shirts.  I didn't even wear my uniform to my friends police academy graduations.  I did see a Coast Guard Auxiliarist wear his uniform to a police academy graduation; honestly, everyone was wondering who and what the heck he was.  It drew attention away from the graduates, and not all the attention was positive.

If I attend an event in a CAP role I wear my uniform, just as I did to a thank you party thrown by a community we helped recover from a tornado.  No shame or embarassment, and I marketed CAP to plenty of people that day.

[Major Carrales]

Sparky, I was on AD in the Navy, stationed on an Air Base, and in CAP at the same time. In spite of my desire to advertise CAP as an organization, I was reluctant to wear my CAP uniform in any manner not directly associated with a CAP activity. The Navy enlisted folks who worked with me were confused when they saw me wearing officer rank in a blue uniform, and the AF enlisted were unsure whether to render a salute or not.

Some who did decide to salute would engage in a practice called "tag teaming", a practice not reserved for just CAP folks. The "perps" walk down the sidewalk about 8 or 10 paces apart, and salute one after another, just far enough apart to necessitate individual salutes from the officer. It was courtesy gone wild.

Being at any recruit training event in an officer uniform is just as bad, and something I would discourage in the situation above.

Trolling might be a little strong, but that's what it ends up being, someone walking around getting a salute every couple of minutes. I, for one, don't feel compelled to wear out my right arm unnecessarily.

YMMV.

Dave, I cannot see it that way.  I will not lessen what a CAP Officer and Cadet is merely because some active duty folks may or may not salute.  We have a responsibility to maintain the integrity of what a CAP Officer, or Cadet is.

We cannot go around being afraid to look like a CAP Officer.  Now, if a Squadron Commander or base commander forbids it, that is another story.  However, there is never any "shame" in wearing a CAP uniform, even the GOLF Shirt.

[Major Carrales]

Obviously opinions vary, but I will share that my son graduates from Marine Corps boot camp in October.  Although I teased him about wearing my CAP uniform to his graduation, I am not planning to do so.  Why?  It is HIS day, and I am there to congratulate him on his accomplishment.  On that day I will not be seeking to draw attention to myself or to advertise CAP.  I'll simply be a proud Dad on October 9th. 

I appreciate Major Carrales' position and do not disagree.  We are CAP officers, no more, no less.  I also agree many freshly minted Marines would experience unecessary awkwardness around me if I wear my uniform.

As for comparisons to other uniformed professionals, all I can say is I didn't wear my police uniform unless I was actually on duty or testifying in court.  I didn't wear it to community service fairs or similar functions unless I was working at them.  It just wasn't done.  Training days?  We usually wore department polo shirts.  I didn't even wear my uniform to my friends police academy graduations.  I did see a Coast Guard Auxiliarist wear his uniform to a police academy graduation; honestly, everyone was wondering who and what the heck he was.  It drew attention away from the graduates, and not all the attention was positive.

If I attend an event in a CAP role I wear my uniform, just as I did to a thank you party thrown by a community we helped recover from a tornado.  No shame or embarassment, and I marketed CAP to plenty of people that day.

I cannot agree in totality.  While it is "his day," I cannot see how your service as a CAP Officer will belittle the experience.  I would chalk it up to its your call.  But, I cannot entertain the idea that it would be wrong or shameful to wear a CAP uniform.

Furthermore, this idea that a CAP Officer would be actively seeking out salutes for egotistical reasons is insulting.  When I see that practice, among Cadets or Seniors, I but a quick end to it.  We are not there to be something we are not...we are there to be what we are and with pride.

Be more proud of what you are, than ashamed of what you are not.

[Airrace]

Yes she can wear her blues but have her first check with her Squadron Commander.

[RiverAux]

We need to be visible.  Until we get over this fear of being seen we never will be.

Its not a fear of being seen, but rather a case of following our regulations. The uniform is to be worn for CAP business of some type or another and attending a relative's graduation from boot camp is not a Civil Air Patrol activity that warrants wear of our uniform.  Now, if a CAP member was invited to speak to the graduating class, certainly they should wear their uniform.  But CAP members don't have carte blanche to wear their uniforms any time they feel like it just to "show the flag".

Lets say I decide to go on a cross-country vacation with plans to visit military museums in 6 states.  Is it ok for me to take my CAP uniform and wear it when I visit those museums?  If not, how is that any different from this situation? 

[DC]

I am all for the widespread wear of Air Force style uniforms, increasing our ties to the military, and increasing CAP's public profile, but there are appropriate times to wear the uniform, and not-so-appropriate times.

Uniforms should be proudly worm during CAP activities and when you are representing CAP in an official capacity.

Uniforms really shouldn't be worn at any other time. It has nothing to do with being ashamed to wear the uniform, or being embarrassed by being a member of CAP, it is simply a case of appropriate attire. Do you wear a bathing suit to a wedding? No, of course not, you pick appropriate attire based on what you will be doing. Choosing when to wear, or not wear a uniform is the same thing.

I would also like to point out the validity of the comments concerning recent boot camp grads being salute happy. By appearing wearing officer rank insignia you will likely make them uncomfortable if you attempt to socialize and just act like your daughter's mom, rather than the officer that your uniform proclaims you to be. Just go in whatever civilian dress is appropriate, I think it will end up being much more comfortable for all involved.

[Prospector]

Ok, folks, I just have to weigh in here as both an active-duty veteran and CAP Senior Member...

First, the wearing of CAP dress uniforms is completely appropriate when attending any military type event. CAP as the Air Force Auxiliary represents an organization that is tied to our parent organization in a very unique way and we should wear our uniforms with the same pride that all other military and civil service agencies do.

I agree with Maj. Carrales here. Properly wearing your dress uniform with pride is not "trolling", especially on a military base where the commander of the base has given permission to wear it. The wearing of a military dress uniform is entirely appropriate at a military graduation ceremony. In fact, this is a major event congratulating the new service members for their service and supporting them in their new careers. Wearing the CAP officer dress uniform to the ceremony is a show of respect for the new boots. You will see that there will be tons of people there in uniform - many enlisted and officers and there will be saluting going on everywhere. Saluting is a sign of respect both ways. Read the Respect on Display pamphlet if you need a refresher.

If a new boot salutes you, that is fine. You can choose to tell them that a salute is not necessary if you feel that they are scared stiff at your presence.

If you wear your CAP uniform with pride and don't act like a pompous @ss, and actually engage your son or daughter's service friends (and their parents) in casual conversation, that will go a long way in breaking the ice and showing these new recruits that they are now "officially" members of a greater team and are welcomed and respected.

Remember, being a boot is tough enough, so actually saluting them and then shaking their hands as an officer in congratulations will probably be a great memory for them. It shows them that all service members are actually human and it is ok to actually talk to officers and senior enlisted casually when appropriate.

Anyway, if my daughter were graduating from boot, I would want to show her as much respect and admiration as I could at the event, and I would want her to feel proud that she is joing in a long tradition of service. However, this is just my feeling and each parent / child has to discuss these things in the open. If you actually give your daughter the opportunity to voice her opinion on the event, and abide by her wishes, that would be best for all concerned.

In fact, you may even want to discuss the fact in the context of mutual respect for each other. If she just wouldn't feel comfortable with having you come in uniform after you discuss it, then I think it should be her call.

Ok, end of rant.

[Smokey]

Prospector,


Well said....in fact, OUTSTANDING.

Sparky I agree with you.  We are pround members of an organization that goes back to WWII and our members served well and some paid the ultimate price.  It is not trolling for salutes or seeking to upstage anyone.  We are part of the military family.  I know that rankles the flying club members, but--too bad.

Wear it with pride, return sharply any salutes, spread the word about CAP and most of all, be professional.

[Hawk200]

.... spread the word about CAP and most of all, ...

As an add, I would suggest carrying some info about Civil Air Patrol as well. A few of the smaller pamphlets will fit in the inside pocket of the Service Coat.

For those of you that actually have CAP business cards, I would suggest placing the CAP website on the card somewhere; people can look up the site themselves.

A lot of the graduates of acedemies have parents that are/were military, and this can be a good place to get the word out.

[Short Field]

It is still inappropirate.   

[Fifinella]

Yes she can wear her blues but have her first check with her Squadron Commander.

"She" is a he.

[Hawk200]

It is still inappropirate.   

Then provide a cite as to the inappropiateness of it.

39-1 (Table 1-1) includes this statement: when attending social activities or dinners on military installations, the wear of a CAP uniform is not restricted.

As to the awards dinner, the wear may be questionable under the letter of the pub, but the setting is still within the spirit. Personally, not against it. But if absolute clarification is needed, the NHQ should be contacted.

[RiverAux]

Here is how I recommend someone make the call about whether to wear the CAP uniform to a non-CAP event:

If you happened to get killed at the event, while in CAP uniform, do you think CAP would have any reason to deny your heirs the CAP death benefit?  In other words, would they have any reason to make the claim that it was not a CAP-authorized activity? 

If the original poster wants to follow the advice of those who think you can wear your CAP uniform on base for any reason at any time, I would advise that you get approval in writing or by email from your squadron commander to wear the uniform at the event.  That way, if there is any question about it later, you will be able to prove that you tried to do the right thing (even if the commander gets fired for approving something he shouldn't have).

[Short Field]

Then provide a cite as to the inappropiateness of it.
39-1 (Table 1-1) includes this statement: when attending social activities or dinners on military installations, the wear of a CAP uniform is not restricted.
As to the awards dinner, the wear may be questionable under the letter of the pub, but the setting is still within the spirit. Personally, not against it. But if absolute clarification is needed, the NHQ should be contacted.

First, I don't see a military graduation ceremony as a "social activity".   Second, the awards dinner is something his town puts on and is not on a military installation and does specifically honor CAP participation. 

Some of you just don't get it and ONLY see this as a ANTI-CAP post or ANTI-MILITARY UNIFORM post.   It is about wearing a officer uniform to his daughter's graduation from basic training.   It is about wearing a Salute-Magnet around a bunch of excited young kids who are celebrating finishing the first step in their military career. 

I don't believe I ever said CAP uniform   and know I never used the words "posers/pretenders" or "inferior USAF Officers" (although someone is dreaming if they believe CAP Officers are USAF Officers). 

[Cecil DP]

It also wouldn't hurt to call the RTC and ask if the wearing of an AF Auxiliary uniform is apropriate. I also agree with the suggestion that she contact her daughter about her preferences. After all it is her celebration.

[RiverAux]

Now, there are some other circumstances where it might be appropriate to wear a CAP uniform to the graduation.  For example, say the graduate was a former cadet from your unit and she had invited the squadron to attend.  In that case, I wouldn't have a problem with it being made a squadron event and everyone (senior and cadet) wearing their uniforms.   

I'd even go so far as to say that if the graduate had invited her former squadron commander to attend, that could probably be considered CAP business. 

Now, even if it was "legal" to wear the uniform to the event, I agree with Shortfield that it might not be appropriate. 

[Walkman]

Wow, I really didn't mean to start such a heated discussion.

First off, I'm NOT a she.

Also, Shortfield, you did offend me with you accusation of "trolling for salutes". My intent was not to cruise around the graduation like some sort of big-wig.

This kind of discussion is one of the reasons I don't hang out on this board much any more. Too many heated opinions, too much name-calling, etc.

[Prospector]

Now, even if it was "legal" to wear the uniform to the event, I agree with Shortfield that it might not be appropriate.

The real answer here for CAP members is found in the CAP Regs - period. Sorry to say that any one of our own opinions on the matter doesn't really matter. If the Regs say you can wear the uniform on this occasion and there are no other official orders (Say by the base commander or your own squadron chain of command) that state otherwise, then you have the option to do it or not based upon your own interpretation of the situation. If the Regs say Nay or don't address it at all, then you have no option.

In terms of helping anyone to determine if an event is really considered a "social event" in terms of a military function, one key element is whether or not civilians are encouraged to attend. If the outside public (civilians) are attending the military function, then it is a "social event". If it's closed doors for "members only" and the commander doesn't specifically designate it as a "social event" then it is not. An example of a closed door social event might be something like a unit "dining in".

I would agree though that if your daughter doesn't mind, but you are still unsure, ask your squadron commander to give you their opinion. Hope this helps the original questioner.

[Eclipse]

Are you going to come all the way from UT?  When is the graduation?

Don't make more of this than it is.

CAP is a welcome presence on the RTC.  We have a 17+ year history of running a great encampment there, and every year we're helped by 70+ Petty Officers, Chiefs, and other personnel.  We've got 2 units and the State Director on the NTC, so they know who we are.

If your recruit is cool with it, have at it and enjoy the day, if not, ditto.  You won't by a long shot be the only officer in attendance, there will be plenty officiating and probably a few with graduates of their own.

If you wear the uniform make sure you render as good as you get, otherwise, don't over think it.

And if you need a good, quick, place to eat for breakfast or lunch, hit the Full Moon on 41 just South of 137.

Otherwise between Gurnee mills and other retail places there's plenty of places to go afterwards.  If you're looking for something a bit more upscale and quieter, Google around the Lake Forest area just North of the base.

[Walkman]

Shes just starting her senior year, so she wouldn't ship out until this summer at the soonest. My post was just something that occurred to me as we;ve been talking about the Navy at home.

We have family in Michigan, so on the way out from UT, we'll probably make a vacation out of it.

[RiverAux]

Now, even if it was "legal" to wear the uniform to the event, I agree with Shortfield that it might not be appropriate.

The real answer here for CAP members is found in the CAP Regs - period. Sorry to say that any one of our own opinions on the matter doesn't really matter.

Exactly right which is why it is not appropriate to wear a CAP uniform to some event that has no official relationship to CAP at all. 

The argument seems to be that this falls under the "social event exception in CAPM39-1 however no one is looking at the top of the column under which the "social activity" clause falls, which reads (emphasis mine):

When Conducting CAP Business

So, if the social activity on the military base involves CAP business, you may wear the CAP uniform.  If you are visiting a military installation on CAP business, you may wear the CAP uniform. 

However, if you are not on CAP business, you cannot wear the CAP uniform.

I don't think it can be any simpler or more obvious than that and in this situation it does not appear that attending the graduation is CAP business, so the CAP uniform is not allowed. 

Incidentally, if you believe that the table authorizes the wear of a CAP uniform to any social activity on a military base you must also believe you can wear a CAP uniform anytime you are flying commercially, even if you aren't on CAP business.  They are noted in the Table in exactly the same way. 

[Walkman]

Now, even if it was "legal" to wear the uniform to the event, I agree with Shortfield that it might not be appropriate.

The real answer here for CAP members is found in the CAP Regs - period. Sorry to say that any one of our own opinions on the matter doesn't really matter.

Exactly right which is why it is not appropriate to wear a CAP uniform to some event that has no official relationship to CAP at all. 

The argument seems to be that this falls under the "social event exception in CAPM39-1 however no one is looking at the top of the column under which the "social activity" clause falls, which reads (emphasis mine):

When Conducting CAP Business

So, if the social activity on the military base involves CAP business, you may wear the CAP uniform.  If you are visiting a military installation on CAP business, you may wear the CAP uniform. 

However, if you are not on CAP business, you cannot wear the CAP uniform.

I don't think it can be any simpler or more obvious than that and in this situation it does not appear that attending the graduation is CAP business, so the CAP uniform is not allowed. 

Incidentally, if you believe that the table authorizes the wear of a CAP uniform to any social activity on a military base you must also believe you can wear a CAP uniform anytime you are flying commercially, even if you aren't on CAP business.  They are noted in the Table in exactly the same way.

That makes a lot of sense River. I wish someone had stated it that way at the beginning, instead of arguing opinions.

Slightly off-topic: Sorry to rant, but I've become completely sick of constant snark, bitterness, partisanship, arguing and every other type of inconsiderate communication that seems to take place in every sector of public discourse. I can't even have an innocent chat here without it devolving. I'm almost ready to turn off every form of media in my house and only watch reruns of the Andy Griffeth show.

[RiverAux]

Unfortunately, our uniform reg is not written as tightly as it might have been and in this particular case there is a lot of discretion available to the squadron commander to say if a particular event is or is not CAP business.  Different people will interpret it differently, and some of those interpretations can be wrong. 

As to CAPTalk, I've always said that the worst thing that someone can do in regards to their CAP-related morale, is participate in a discussion board such as this.   Some are willing to take that risk to their morale because they enjoy the discussions while for others it isn't worth it. 

[Smokey]

Walkman,

While I understand why you asked the question here, I think you have discovered that such a question brings out the vermin, trolls and other naysayers who will attack without mercy.

There are some here that if you asked them what day of the week it is , they would do their best to tear you a new one and try to cite a twisted meaning to a reg to justify it.

Unfortunately, we do have those in CAP who feel it is their duty to mock others. 

For me... Thank your daughter for me for choosing to serve her country.  I appreciate her dedication and service.  May she serve honorably and with courage.

[JohnKachenmeister]

+1 to what my bro' Smokey just said.

"Fair winds and following seas."

And... Smokey, when California slides into the ocean, I hope you are vacationing out of state. 

[Eclipse]

There are some here that if you asked them what day of the week it is , they would do their best to tear you a new one and try to cite a twisted meaning to a reg to justify it.

Who's calendar?  Solar? Lunar? Fiscal? Chinese? Gregorian?
Which side of the dateline?  Plus, there are temporal theories which hold that all time is non-linear and every moment occurs simultaneously.

NHQ is skating on thin ice thinking it can ignore this issue and leave it to the membership to decide on their own.  How long before we start losing pilots who would have to buy their own calendars?

[Major Carrales]

When a CAP Officer of Cadet asks me if they can wear their uniform to an activity, I weight each decision with care.  If a cadet asks, for example, if he can wear his uniform at the family Thanksgiving Dinner or to welcome a sibling/cousin I will say yes.  I if have to issue a memo from now on making it "an official CAP activity" or "Squadron Function" I guess I will do it.

River your disingenuous "insurance" argument is as much blarney as I have ever heard.  There is no basis for it, only your beliefs.

Shortfield, you are yet to apologize.  It is now of record that you truly offended someone with your less than considerate words and accusations of "trolling for salutes."  One does not have to say "exact words" to insinuate things.   

Making the case that CAP Officers are "trolling for salutes" insinuates that they are somehow "posers/pretenders" on some sort of ego trip.  That is what smacks of offense.

CAP Officers are CAP Officers, neither superior nor inferior to USAF Officers...different in the fact they the two have totally different (yet equal) inherent worth.  In other words they are what they are, nothing more or less.

I am, as I have stated, going to make CAP visible whether I have to do it myself.  No one will ever know who we are if we are never seen.  It a new century, friends, and if we continue the low visibility that some of you recommend, we will die of bloodletting.

So, all of you who read this be it today or as an old thread long moved down the list.  Wear you uniform as often as possible where appropriate.  Seek the appropriate permission.  Squadron Commanders be vigilant yet LIBERAL with said permissions.  Let the people see us.  Members, wear your uniform correctly and smartly.

If all that is done, then the point of contention in this thread is moot.

[SarDragon]

Instead of "trolling for salutes", substitute the more accurate, and less offensive, "salute magnet". That certainly better represents my thoughts about the situation I described.

Short Field, would you agree?

[Major Carrales]

Instead of "trolling for salutes", substitute the more accurate, and less offensive, "salute magnet". That certainly better represents my thoughts about the situation I described.

Short Field, would you agree?

Ah...enter the politically correct discussion.  Calling a cat a feline does not change what it truly is...a small quadruped that meows.   

[flyerthom]

Ah...enter the politically correct discussion.  Calling a cat a feline does not change what it truly is...a small quadruped that meows.   

Civil Air Patrol kittehs disagree!
Mission Ready Go bag

Becker DF?

Furst kitteh is Buddy Cat My House Squadron Commander!


Obvious compromise - Corporate Blazer Uniform, Represents CAP in a positive professional light and not a salute magnet.

[Major Carrales]

Obvious compromise - Corporate Blazer Uniform, Represents CAP in a positive professional light and not a salute magnet.

What I was going to say...

A better one would be the CSU, a purely CAP Style uniform.  The Blazer Uniform works, however, (and this is opinion) it is one of our most "generic," off the rack at Montgomery Ward...or J.C. Penny's (Brooks Brothers it ain't), and it has a badge.  Wouldn't want soon to be commissioned FBI agents to think that we were agents of some clandestine Federal Agency...the "RED PROP Bureau."

It seems, according to some of the discussion from some of you, that if we are afraid to wear USAF style uniforms...then we might as well remove them from our uniform lexicon and go full CSU.  After all, if this situation is as offensive to some of you ,then why even wear a USAF Style uniform at all?  In fact, why not just declare independence from the USAF and become "Federal Volunteers- Aviation branch."  I hear that is in vogue these days...at least according rumor.

Imagine that...no Air Force connection at all.  Securing our own funding, wear the CSU like police, EMS and fire do with no need to ever have to worry about being saluted by anyone.

What I will say instead...

Civil Air Patrol kittehs...BIGGER, FASTER, STRONGER!!!

[RiverAux]

River your disingenuous "insurance" argument is as much blarney as I have ever heard.  There is no basis for it, only your beliefs.

That was not put forth as an argument in this particular situation, it was a description of how I personally go about deciding whether or not something is a CAP activity or not.  As I said several times the reg does give a lot of leeway to commanders in declaring something a CAP activity or not.  Others may use different criteria.

If a very experienced competent CAP officer can legitimately believe that a family Thanksgiving dinner can be considered an official CAP activity at which a CAP uniform is appropriate, I am quite frankly dumbfounded and left without anything more to say on the subject, a position in which I rarely find myself. 

[Short Field]

Instead of "trolling for salutes", substitute the more accurate, and less offensive, "salute magnet".

That actually described my thoughts on it to begin with but it took a while to come up with the right term.  And I did send a PM to Walkman over this.   

[Cecil DP]

Lt Walker's wear of the uniform at his daughters graduation is far more appropriate, than one member's posting of wearing a mess dress while on a caribbean cruise, which was posted about a year ago.

[Major Carrales]

If a very experienced competent CAP officer can legitimately believe that a family Thanksgiving dinner can be considered an official CAP activity at which a CAP uniform is appropriate, I am quite frankly dumbfounded and left without anything more to say on the subject, a position in which I rarely find myself.

Here is where you fundamentally miss the point.  CAP is a big part of some people lives while an afternoon and weekend hobby to some.  CAP is a bountiful cornucopia of community service worthy of pride to some and simply free flying to others.

CAP holds a special place in the lives, so much so that they wish to share that with others, of some and free flying so you don't have to rent the local Cessna 182 dry to others.

When I joined CAP I was the only CAP Officer within 90 miles of my home.  I drove to Brownsville, over 200 miles away to attend weekly meetings and drive, presently, to the Squadron I command some 80 miles...and I am not a even a pilot.  I do three CAP meetings a week in two different cities.  I work in Aviation, Cadet Programs, Emergency Services and countless other Civil Air Patrol promoting Public Affairs activities.

I personally purchase a kings ransom's worth of patches, rank insignia and sometimes even the membership (repaid sometimes a quarter at a time) for cadets from backgrounds that likely will make Horatio Alger weep with pity...and on a Middle School teacher's salary.

CAP is growing in South Texas...because it is being watered with Public Affairs and simply being visible.  We grew a unit from three active members to one with 5 mission pilots in two years...and that was without an aircraft and with the nearest Form 5 and 91 check pilot 100 miles north of us and nearly 250 miles south of us.

Sorry, you find yourself speechless at the idea that a person cannot officially support CAP in venues other than airshows or on meeting nights and SARexs.  Any Senior or Cadet that asks to wear a uniform to support CAP in a venue of solemn, respectful and visible forum (be it a banquet, dance or the like) deserves consideration by a Squadron Commander to be allowed to represent CAP.  It is then the Squadron Commander's prerogative to make the choice...not yours, or mine or the Senior or Cadet doing the asking.

Until we can somehow "normalize" the idea of CAP officers and cadets in the world our Public Affairs and Recruiting Officers are forced to battle the "Civil Air Patrol...never heard of it?!" phenomenon.  And, if you and the likes of you refuse to allow that, you had better keep a silent keyboard when I hear you and other commenting on dismal CAP recruiting numbers and why people (clients) don't seem to want to call CAP.

This is not about ego...about someone trying to garner salutes or feel important.  It is, rather, a first step in bringing CAP out of the shadows.  And BEING a CAP that people recognize as much as they do the BOY SCOUTS or RED CROSS.

Be speechless, if you will, but understand this...and understand it well...I care deeply about this organization and will not allow the narrow-mindedness of some cause our organization to stagnate and be that TREE that forever falls in the forest.

[Hawk200]

^^^^^^^^


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[DC]

What I was going to say...

A better one would be the CSU, a purely CAP Style uniform.  The Blazer Uniform works, however, (and this is opinion) it is one of our most "generic," off the rack at Montgomery Ward...or J.C. Penny's (Brooks Brothers it ain't), and it has a badge.  Wouldn't want soon to be commissioned FBI agents to think that we were agents of some clandestine Federal Agency...the "RED PROP Bureau."

Maybe you've forgotten that the main contention here is that wearing any uniform resembling an Air Force officer's uniform would:
                a)Not be appropriate to the situation and
                b)Attract salutes from newly minted Sailors like mosquitoes to a blood bank.

The CSU could potentially look even more like an AF uniform than the actual AF style. The CSU uses actual blue AF officer rank slides, has a blue nameplate, and shares pants and headgear with the actual USAF uniform. The shirt is the wrong color, but are brand new sailors not used to seeing AF personnel and uniforms going to notice?

I still fail to see the point of wearing a CAP uniform to an unrelated military function...

[Major Carrales]

What I was going to say...

A better one would be the CSU, a purely CAP Style uniform.  The Blazer Uniform works, however, (and this is opinion) it is one of our most "generic," off the rack at Montgomery Ward...or J.C. Penny's (Brooks Brothers it ain't), and it has a badge.  Wouldn't want soon to be commissioned FBI agents to think that we were agents of some clandestine Federal Agency...the "RED PROP Bureau."

Maybe you've forgotten that the main contention here is that wearing any uniform resembling an Air Force officer's uniform would:
                a)Not be appropriate to the situation and
                b)Attract salutes from newly minted Sailors like mosquitoes to a blood bank.

The CSU could potentially look even more like an AF uniform than the actual AF style. The CSU uses actual blue AF officer rank slides, has a blue nameplate, and shares pants and headgear with the actual USAF uniform. The shirt is the wrong color, but are brand new sailors not used to seeing AF personnel and uniforms going to notice?

I still fail to see the point of wearing a CAP uniform to an unrelated military function...

Those issues are clear to me, but I reject the notion of impropriety.  It is a CIVIL AIR PATROL UNIFORM, not a "cheap USAF Knock Off" as your words insinuate.  We don't merely LOOK like USAF Officers...we ARE CIVIL AIR PATROL OFFICERS.  That is a point that people keep missing and it is fundamental to everything we do. 

STOP LOOKING AT US AS AN INFERIOR VERSION of the USAF, we are CIVIL AIR PATROL...you people need to get that into your understanding.

That a sailor does not identify it as such is a testament to the point I am making, we are unknowns among the people that should know us.  I have seen Fire Fighter's Uniforms that use blue rank sleeves and white shirts.  Can we assume then that such a clad person wearing oak leaves will get a salute?

And, by the way, it is not a blasphemy for a CAP Officer to be saluted, it in no way cheapens the NAVY or other service...one simply need return the salute respectfully and offer their best 30 second CAP Crash Course (if they feel it necessary). 

It is never my intention to be saluted by anyone in the active duty or reserve,  when it happens I offer the action stated above.  I have had several even inquire about CAP and some even join.  But I suppose that is somehow sacrilege.

The CSU is a pure CAP Uniform designed for CAP and approved by our CAP-USAF authorities.  if it was ever adopted as the sole uniform, it would be the CAP Uniform specifically.   We are Civil Air Patrol, we wear our prescribed uniforms.  I can only assume that the charge of impropriety stems from the fact that y'all think the majority in CAP somehow want to "HAM it UP."  Such an assumption is ludicrous at best and at worst insulting.

Until we are free from this fear of being seen we will continue to have the issues that we see that are sapping CAP of its potential.   The military needs to see us, they need to see that potential.  A CAP officer in sharp uniform supporting a member entering their branch of the service sends the message that there "is, in fact a CIVIL AIR PATROL" and it is visible and available.  More than that, that is shows solemn respect for those that are entered into its ranks.

[SarDragon]

Instead of "trolling for salutes", substitute the more accurate, and less offensive, "salute magnet". That certainly better represents my thoughts about the situation I described.

Short Field, would you agree?

Ah...enter the politically correct discussion.  Calling a cat a feline does not change what it truly is...a small quadruped that meows.   

I wasn't looking for PC, I was trying to more accurately describe the situation. "Trolling for salutes" implies behaviour by the person wearing the uniform. "Salute magnet" describes the almost Pavlovian behaviour of the recruits seeing the uniform. Very different, IMHO.

[DC]

What I was going to say...

A better one would be the CSU, a purely CAP Style uniform.  The Blazer Uniform works, however, (and this is opinion) it is one of our most "generic," off the rack at Montgomery Ward...or J.C. Penny's (Brooks Brothers it ain't), and it has a badge.  Wouldn't want soon to be commissioned FBI agents to think that we were agents of some clandestine Federal Agency...the "RED PROP Bureau."

Maybe you've forgotten that the main contention here is that wearing any uniform resembling an Air Force officer's uniform would:
                a)Not be appropriate to the situation and
                b)Attract salutes from newly minted Sailors like mosquitoes to a blood bank.

The CSU could potentially look even more like an AF uniform than the actual AF style. The CSU uses actual blue AF officer rank slides, has a blue nameplate, and shares pants and headgear with the actual USAF uniform. The shirt is the wrong color, but are brand new sailors not used to seeing AF personnel and uniforms going to notice?

I still fail to see the point of wearing a CAP uniform to an unrelated military function...

Those issues are clear to me, but I reject the notion of impropriety.  It is a CIVIL AIR PATROL UNIFORM, not a "cheap USAF Knock Off" as your words insinuate.  We don't merely LOOK like USAF Officers...we ARE CIVIL AIR PATROL OFFICERS.  That is a point that people keep missing and it is fundamental to everything we do. 

STOP LOOKING AT US AS AN INFERIOR VERSION of the USAF, we are CIVIL AIR PATROL...you people need to get that into your understanding.

That a sailor does not identify it as such is a testament to the point I am making, we are unknowns among the people that should know us.  I have seen Fire Fighter's Uniforms that use blue rank sleeves and white shirts.  Can we assume then that such a clad person wearing oak leaves will get a salute?

And, by the way, it is not a blasphemy for a CAP Officer to be saluted, it in no way cheapens the NAVY or other service...one simply need return the salute respectfully and offer their best 30 second CAP Crash Course (if they feel it necessary). 

It is never my intention to be saluted by anyone in the active duty or reserve,  when it happens I offer the action stated above.  I have had several even inquire about CAP and some even join.  But I suppose that is somehow sacrilege.

The CSU is a pure CAP Uniform designed for CAP and approved by our CAP-USAF authorities.  if it was ever adopted as the sole uniform, it would be the CAP Uniform specifically.   We are Civil Air Patrol, we wear our prescribed uniforms.  I can only assume that the charge of impropriety stems from the fact that y'all think the majority in CAP somehow want to "HAM it UP."  Such an assumption is ludicrous at best and at worst insulting.

Until we are free from this fear of being seen we will continue to have the issues that we see that are sapping CAP of its potential.   The military needs to see us, they need to see that potential.  A CAP officer in sharp uniform supporting a member entering their branch of the service sends the message that there "is, in fact a CIVIL AIR PATROL" and it is visible and available.  More than that, that is shows solemn respect for those that are entered into its ranks.

Never did I suggest that we are somehow inferior to the USAF or USAF personnel.

Nor did I say that it's blasphemy for a CAP officer to be saluted. However, trying to be friendly and meet all of your kid's new buddies in the military is going to be difficult if they aren't comfortable in your presence unless they are standing at attention.

What is so difficult about the concept that you can't just wear your uniform whenever you feel like it? It has nothing to do with an inferiority complex, it has to do with appropriately and responsibly wearing your uniform. There are times when you should be in uniform, and times when you shouldn't, and going to a personal event that just happens to be military related isn't one. You cannot just randomly decide to 'raise awareness' by wearing your uniform to a Navy boot camp graduation, Thanksgiving dinner, or any other non-CAP related function. 

[MAJORZ04]

I wore my CAP Blue uniform to my fathers funeral, as He requested.
My Dad was a retired US Navy Senior Chief Petty Officer.  At the
funeral service I was treated as a Lt Col by all who attended, both
civilian and military.  I treated all those military people with great respect and dignity right back.
Just as my Dad, The Chief, taught me ..... It is not the uniform that
makes the person, it is the person that makes the uniform.
We have a member of our squardon, a Major, that wears his uniform
to his sons Winging ceremony (they are Officers in the USAF).  His sons wanted him to do that, as they are proud of him and his service to America, thru CAP.
I do think that we should check with our chain of command before wearing our USAF/CAP dress uniform to a non-CAP function, first!

[brasda91]

As I've read each post I've gone back and forth on this.

On one hand, I wouldn't have a problem with wearing the uniform to graduation.  It is a military graduation by the way, not a high school graduation.

On the other hand, I understand the regulation side of it and can agree with it too.  Reg's are specific as to "CAP business".

I agree with Sparky's emotional side.  I feel the same way about CAP.  Although I would not approve a member to wear their uniform to a Thanksgiving Dinner with the family.  Sorry, don't get that one.

Salute magnets?  Trolling for salutes?  I understand the difference in the two, but who really cares that you may have to salute 30 times?  They are not saluting you, they are saluting the grade.  If you don't want to return a salute or if you simply "wave off" the salute, then wear the polo.

I would expect there to be several moms and dads in attendance that are active duty enlisted or officers, in their uniform.

I think I would have to go with the reg's on this one and say no.  I understand wanting to promote CAP, and I don't have a problem wiith that, you are still not conducting CAP business.

[jimmydeanno]

I've noticed that we make a huge difference in allowances for cadets versus seniors.

I permit my cadets to wear their uniforms for all sorts of functions.  Family weddings, funerals, school events, etc. 

[Prospector]

Kudos to Maj. Carrales again for his enthusiasm and support for CAP and his common sense in this discussion, and to everyone else here that have remained respectful to each other.

There are a couple of disturbing points to make here and to clarify a bit:

1. CAP as the Air Force Auxilliary is an organ of the Air Force body and rightfully has a place wherever regular Air Force troops may be found.

2. As such, it is entirely proper for a CAP Officer to wear their U.S. Air Force approved Air Force "style" or CAP CSU uniform to any event where other branches of the military will be represented in similar uniforms.

3. Any formal social event that has a military or civil service theme or component to it (and especially something like a military graduation, promotion, retirement, or other ceremony) is an inherent CAP business activity.

What CAP business activity could this be, you ask?

The answer is that it falls directly under the activity of Public Affairs and does not need to be "specifically ordered".

When you wear your uniform appropriately on these occasions, you are directly performing the CAP Public Affairs activity. How you conduct yourself while in uniform not only reflects on you, but on CAP, so if you don't want to engage in properly rendering a salute back if given to you by a lower ranking individual, then by all means, don't wear the uniform. Save yourself and CAP the blowback.

Of course, if there is any doubt at all as to the appropriateness of wearing your CAP dress uniform to an event, here are some sample questions to ask yourself to ensure you are doing the right thing:

1. In the invitation to the event, does the dress code specified specifically say military dress, suit and tie, or semi-formal attire is expected?

2. Is the event clearly a military or civil service sponsored event?

3. If not specifically sponsored, is the event being held to recognize members of the military or civil service?

4. Will there be other branches of the military represented in uniform at the event?

5. For a civil service event, will there be police, fire, or other such officers in attendance wearing their dress uniforms?

6. Would your squadron commander wear their uniform if they were attending?

7. If still unsure, can the coordinator of the event be contacted prior to the event to ask if uniforms are appropriate for the occasion?

If the answer to a majority of these questions is YES, then you can't go wrong.

Now if CAPM 39-1 is ambiguous in this regard and members need further instruction, then I submit that it is not the members who are lacking here, it is CAP NHQ and each squadron chain of command. In the case of CAP NHQ, they should clarify CAPM 39-1 with language to prevent ambiguity as much as possible. (I think a new version of CAPM 39-1 is in the works as we speak - but I'm not 100% positive)

In the case of each squadron chain of command, they should actively seek out any confusion their troops have, and hold training sessions to overcome the confusion, and provide the feedback to NHQ.

Thanks!

[aveighter]

This uniform/saluting business really brings out the "diversity" our organization has devolved into over the last thirty years.

For those of us who have spent time in uniform in active service the concept of uniform wearing and saluting is not novel or dangerous or exciting or even rash.  It is simply normal.  A salute is just part of the environment.   The purpose, place and meaning is understood.  Some salute you and some you salute.  Simple.  An aspect of the environment which uniform wearing is a part of.  Nothing more, nothing less. 

However, for many (certainly not all) lacking that experience (especially for those harboring a deep seated sense of inadequacy and a poor self-image)  I can see how the idea of appearing in uniform and being expected to exhibit all the appropriate behaviors amongst others for whom this is natural would be a terrifying event.  One to be avoided at all cost, the mere suggestion to be stamped out and suppressed by any means necessary.

There are probably better arguments for the officers academy concept that Major K has described but this has got to be near the top.  With training and education comes confidence. 

All of this, of course, is contingent upon the assumption that you are capable of appearing in uniform in a manner that honors the CAP and USAF which it (and therefore you) represent.  The regs are quite clear on that.

[Major Carrales]

Instead of "trolling for salutes", substitute the more accurate, and less offensive, "salute magnet". That certainly better represents my thoughts about the situation I described.

Short Field, would you agree?

Ah...enter the politically correct discussion.  Calling a cat a feline does not change what it truly is...a small quadruped that meows.   

I wasn't looking for PC, I was trying to more accurately describe the situation. "Trolling for salutes" implies behaviour by the person wearing the uniform. "Salute magnet" describes the almost Pavlovian behaviour of the recruits seeing the uniform. Very different, IMHO.

Yes, and I agree, well stated.

[DrJbdm]

   I have been reading this debate between Major C and Shortfield and a few others and have decided that I have to ask a very important question that has not been asked yet..... If Short field believes it is wrong for an USAF AUX Officer to appear in uniform, would it also be wrong for an active duty or reserve AF or Army Officer to be uniform for that event? or does the idea of being wrong apply only to CAP officers? Why would there be a difference?

   If it is wrong for USAF AUX Officers to wear the uniform, why would it not be wrong for the parents of another graduate who are active duty or reserve military officers? What if a graduates father was a general officer?

   If it is wrong for us, as short field pointed out, then it should be wrong for everyone else....After all wouldn't they also be out "trolling for salutes" or be a "salute magnate"?

please weigh in...

[DC]

Military officers are military officers. CAP is a paramilitary organization with very close ties to the Air Force, but the vast majority of us are still civilians at the end of the day. An AF officer attending their child's BMT graduation is still going to a 'military event', a CAP officer cannot say the same for it being a 'CAP event'.

[NCRblues]

Speaking from experience, when I graduated (air force) basic training, officers were everywhere. In attendance there was an active duty Maj. Gen, a reserve one star, several navy captains and commanders, air force group commanders (which are usually full birds) and many other lower ranking officers.  Yet none of this brass bothered any of the recruits I graduated with, you know why? Because I seen the reserve one star RUN to see his granddaughter after words. I saw navy captains hugging their children, grandchildren ext. In basic you are taught to respect the grade, salute the grade and move on. Saluting is a fact of life on a military instillation, and even off. I'm sure those that attended the national boards in San Antonio got saluted once or twice on the river walk, were after graduating the new airman go to spend time with their families. I'm also sure those new services members didn't even think twice about doing it; they just went about their day. Ladies and gentleman hopefully no one is trolling for salutes, because they're not saluting you, for they have no clue who YOU    are, they salute that bar, bars or oak leaf because its respect to the grade. I say wear the uniform and wear it proud, for you can be proud parents, who while walking to see your child after graduation may have to salute, but remember when you salute those young men and women your saluting America's finest!! (Proud active duty member and proud CAP officer)

[DrJbdm]

  A military event is a CAP event. As a CAP officer, you are a USAF AUX officer.

  The Navy Sea Cadets are an example of a complete civilian / paramilitary organization, CAP is not, exactly the same way. CAP is governed to a very large degree  by the USAF and falls under the Air Force family. Hence we fall into the Air Force command structure: AETC and are operational thru 1st Air Force / AFNORTH. 

  Other organizations, like the Sea Cadets and the Army Cadets are not tied directly to a service branch. The Sea Cadets fall under the navy League, a civilian organization. The Army Cadets fall under something other than the US Army or any of its reserve or guard components. CAP is tied directly to the US Air Force. The Coast Guard Aux is something a little closer to us, but they try extremely hard to be non military.

[DrJbdm]

  I got saluted a lot while in San Antonio for the National Boards by both lower ranking Air Force officers and enlisted personnel. But then again, I try and fit the image of an Air Force officer and wear the uniform to the same Air Force standard. However, I do not pass myself off as an Air Force officer, but rather as an USAF AUX officer. If anyone asked, I gave a short version of CAP and how it is tied to the USAF. But no one ever asked.

  It's not a big deal being saluted or having to salute. It comes with the uniform and the military nature of CAP, unless you choose to wear the white and greys or the polo shirt.

[MIKE]

The Coast Guard Aux is something a little closer to us, but they try extremely hard to be non military.

The Coast Guard Auxiliary is even more Auxiliary than Civil Air Patrol.  My Tropical Blue uniform looks even more military than your service uniform... Even if I don't salute my flotilla commander, or get to put ENS in my sig block.  Like my CGUC?  Noticed you like to use USAF Auxiliary a lot, however misplaced that may be (Ask CAP-USAF.)... Your BDU tapes say CIVIL AIR PATROL.  Auxiliary ODU tapes say USCG AUXILIARY, and they match the uniform too.

Oh, and how 'bout this? On topic too: http://kb.cgaux.info/kb/?View=entry&EntryID=354

[Major Carrales]

The Coast Guard Aux is something a little closer to us, but they try extremely hard to be non military.

The Coast Guard Auxiliary is even more Auxiliary than Civil Air Patrol.  My Tropical Blue uniform looks even more military than your service uniform... Even if I don't salute my flotilla commander, or get to put ENS in my sig block.  Like my CGUC?  Noticed you like to use USAF Auxiliary a lot, however misplaced that may be (Ask CAP-USAF.)... Your BDU tapes say CIVIL AIR PATROL.  Auxiliary ODU tapes say USCG AUXILIARY, and they match the uniform too.

Oh, and how 'bout this? On topic too: http://kb.cgaux.info/kb/?View=entry&EntryID=354

Strange you are talking about CAP in "Third Person."  Not one of "US" anymore...eh?

[DrJbdm]

  I'm not debating that the CG Aux wears a uniform that is closer to the reg Coast Guard then CAP does to the Air Force. But, CG Aux does appear to go out of it's way to act less or even non military, I would say that CAP is more military as a whole then the CG Aux.

  The A on top of the rank looks silly, the whole concept of tying rank to positions in such a way that you can go up and down in rank in any given year based on elections is silly. But, it seems to work for them, I just think it's a little strange. But, they do what they do well, I can't rant on them too much. I wish we had the same closeness to the Air Force. But I don't want to do that by trying to be less military.

  As far as using Air Force Aux alot? yes, I have been so accused but we are still the Air Force Aux, perhaps in your area of the world you may get very few AFAMS but down here, thats all I fly. As a whole, CAP is still the USAF AUX, even if it seems that we want to confuse ourselves.

[RiverAux]

you can go up and down in rank in any given year based on elections is silly.

which is why it doesn't work that way.  You wear the insignia for the highest office you have held. 

tying rank to positions

You do realize that this is in reality how CAP works?  The only people that have any real authority in CAP have it because of the position they hold at any one particular time and it is irrelevant what their grade is.  A Wing Commander has a ton of authority because they are a Wing Commander, not because they are a Col.   

[wuzafuzz]

   I have been reading this debate between Major C and Shortfield and a few others and have decided that I have to ask a very important question that has not been asked yet..... If Short field believes it is wrong for an USAF AUX Officer to appear in uniform, would it also be wrong for an active duty or reserve AF or Army Officer to be uniform for that event? or does the idea of being wrong apply only to CAP officers? Why would there be a difference?

   If it is wrong for USAF AUX Officers to wear the uniform, why would it not be wrong for the parents of another graduate who are active duty or reserve military officers? What if a graduates father was a general officer?

   If it is wrong for us, as short field pointed out, then it should be wrong for everyone else....After all wouldn't they also be out "trolling for salutes" or be a "salute magnate"?

please weigh in...

Simple:  39-1 prescribes when you we can wear CAP uniforms.  We simply cannot invent other circumstances to justify uniform wear. RM officers and enlisted persons comply with different regulations tham we do.  So it's not wrong for them to certain things we shouldn't do.  The personal motives driving an individuals decision to wear their uniform are completely irrelevant.  Compliance with pertinent regulations and professional image rule the day.

So the remaining factor is whether a boot camp graduation is considered a social event.  Absent specific guidance I believe the matter sufficiently fuzzy as to permit wear if your commander agrees.  Make your decision and don't worry about the many opinions expressed here.  I'd wager there are differing opinions within the RM about off duty uniform wear.  Just like here, they are opinions.  Let the regs be your guide.

[wuzafuzz]

I am, as I have stated, going to make CAP visible whether I have to do it myself.  No one will ever know who we are if we are never seen.  It a new century, friends, and if we continue the low visibility that some of you recommend, we will die of bloodletting.

So, all of you who read this be it today or as an old thread long moved down the list.  Wear you uniform as often as possible where appropriate.  Seek the appropriate permission.  Squadron Commanders be vigilant yet LIBERAL with said permissions.  Let the people see us.  Members, wear your uniform correctly and smartly.

If all that is done, then the point of contention in this thread is moot.

As a Public Affairs Officer I completely agree we should market CAP at every opportunity.  Uniform wear is only a part of a useful PR program.  Go for it!  Wear your CAP uniform when permitted by the regs and represent us professionally. 

Otherwise there are a variety of non-uniform t-shirts, jackets, sweatshirts, and ball caps that can turn you into a walking billboard for CAP when uniform wear is not indicated by the regulations.   Visibility needs accomplished without breaking our own rules.

[Short Field]

If Short field believes it is wrong for an USAF AUX Officer to appear in uniform, would it also be wrong for an active duty or reserve AF or Army Officer to be uniform for that event? or does the idea of being wrong apply only to CAP officers?

No where did I say anything about a USAF AUX Officer appearing in uniform.   My comments were about wearing a Officer's uniform to the event.   The wife and I have attended similar events (AFJROTC) for familiy members and did not wear our uniforms and for the same reasons. 

[Major Carrales]

Otherwise there are a variety of non-uniform t-shirts, jackets, sweatshirts, and ball caps that can turn you into a walking billboard for CAP when uniform wear is not indicated by the regulations.   Visibility needs accomplished without breaking our own rules.

Sorry, but in no way are "non-uniform t-shirts, jackets, sweatshirts, and ball caps" appropriate at an event like the graduation exercise motioned above.  C'mon, man, a tee shirt is basically "underwear."  As was mentioned before, if the Squadron Commander approved the wear of the activity, and was reasonable in doing so---after all the activity is a solemn one where both CAP and the activity would be honored.

Now, what I suspect some of you fear is wear of uniforms at truly inappropriate functions, such as those rallies, political meetings, Klan meetings, Communist gatherings and the like that are verboten in the regs.  I am not advocating daily wear of the uniform as if it were civilian garb...however, there are some here that would likely hide at a gas station because they don't want to be seen in uniform or somehow disappear if they have to stop for something prior to a meeting.

Uniforms provide an important organizational function, they demonstrate that the group is united in their purpose.  This is the same for Middle School Student wearing a polo and khakis, policemen/fire and EMS personnel.  When you are seen in CAP uniform to and from a meeting or at an commander's approved event, it is not a shameful thing (because I suspect that in the back of the minds of some here being in uniform is to look "inferior" since one is not a USAF officer)

We need to get over that fast.  Just wear the uniform properly, be proud to be in CAP and get the job done.

[aveighter]

Well said Joe!!

For those of you who don't know Major Carrales, he is a walking advertisement for how a CAP officer should look in uniform and a credit to the service.

[Prospector]

Well, to put an end to the questions, I entered a question using the e-Services knowledgebase to CAP-USAF Command. I'll let you know their answer once I get it.

[Eclipse]

Well, to put an end to the questions, I entered a question using the e-Services knowledgebase to CAP-USAF Command. I'll let you know their answer once I get it.

The KB is not run by the "CAP-USAF Command", the answers are provided by NHQ staffers, and generally just involve looking up the reg for you.

It is a good resource for things which are black and white, or are transitional, but in cases where the answer is subjective, or based on a command opinion, they can't be much help.

This is one of those cases, as the regulations are purposely vague.

[RiverAux]

Although I've received an answer every time I've submitted a question to the the knowledgebase, they've never posted anything in the online version.  FYI, it isn't CAP-USAF that answers those questions, it is CAP NHQ. 

And oh yeah, some people here don't believe the KB (or the NHQ people who answer the questions) can actually provide a definitive answer to anything (I'm not one of those folks).

[wuzafuzz]

Otherwise there are a variety of non-uniform t-shirts, jackets, sweatshirts, and ball caps that can turn you into a walking billboard for CAP when uniform wear is not indicated by the regulations.   Visibility needs accomplished without breaking our own rules.

Sorry, but in no way are "non-uniform t-shirts, jackets, sweatshirts, and ball caps" appropriate at an event like the graduation exercise motioned above.  C'mon, man, a tee shirt is basically "underwear."  As was mentioned before, if the Squadron Commander approved the wear of the activity, and was reasonable in doing so---after all the activity is a solemn one where both CAP and the activity would be honored.

Careful with the assumptions there.  In San Diego they encourage family to buy company identifier t-shirts to wear at the graduation, both to show support and to allow the graduates to find their family faster.

You will also note I didn't limit my comments about advertising CAP to formal or semi-formal occasions.  There are many events where the novelty wear would fit in just fine.

[Prospector]

Ok Everyone,

Here is the official answer from the CAP Knowledge base inquiry I made yesterday:

Question:
Is a military course graduation ceremony held on a military base considered an authorized social activity for the purposes of wearing the CAP Air Force style or new Corporate Dress Uniform by an attending CAP member? Additional Info: The attending CAP officer would be an invited guest, not one of the graduates.

Official Answer (emphasis added):
Response (KB Manager)
09/14/2009 12:46 PM

Yes it would be appropriate to wear the CAP uniform to a military graduation ceremony on a military base. CAPM 39-1 allows wear of the CAP uniform when attending social activities or dinners on military installations without restriction.

Please see knowledgebase answer(s) below for additional details.

Answer Title: Wearing the CAP uniform to a non CAP activity
Answer Link: http://capnhq.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/capnhq.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=802

I hope this puts the question to rest now. 

[Eclipse]

[ColonelJack]

Well said Joe!!

For those of you who don't know Major Carrales, he is a walking advertisement for how a CAP officer should look in uniform and a credit to the service.

Heck, I don't know Sparky other than through this board ... but I already consider him a good friend.  And you're right ... the pictures I've seen are a billboard for what a CAP officer should look like when he's in uniform.

Well said.  And great job, Sparky!

Jack

[RiverAux]

Well, I am generally one of those who defers to the KB, so I'll consider it closed.

However, I would note that the question was a little biased towards this answer as it doesn't specify that the CAP member was invited only because of the family relationship with the graduate, not because the member was a CAP member.  I've said all along that if you were invited because you were a CAP member, then it would probably be appropriate to wear the uniform. 

[Prospector]

I've said all along that if you were invited because you were a CAP member, then it would probably be appropriate to wear the uniform.

If you look closely at the answer given, you will see that the answer is specific in stating that it is always appropriate (unless specifically ordered not to by competent authority, ie. the base commander, event host, or your CAP chain of command) for a CAP Senior Officer to wear their CAP dress uniform to any social activity the person is allowed, or has been invited, to attend that is being held on any military base. Hence the terminology stated, "without restriction."

This is true whether or not anything associated with the event is CAP related in any way.

The only criteria in this case to comply with is:

1. Is the event a Social Event or dinner?
2. Is the event being held on a military base?
3. Is there a directive specifically prohibiting uniform wear for the occasion?

Clearly the NHQ considers a military graduation ceremony to be an authorized "Social Activity".

Case closed - again. 

[Major Carrales]

Semper Vigilans!!!