When to wear the Blues?

[Walkman]

(I'm sure this is a simple thing, but 39-1 was a little vague to me. I did a search, but wasn't able to quite find what I needed.)

The wording in 39-1 says we can wear CAP uniforms on military installations. Just to be clear, My daughter is looking into the Naval reserves. Would it be correct and appropriate to wear the AF blues to her Boot Camp graduation?

Also, I saw this in an old thread about wearing mess dress on a cruise:

CAPP 151, Para 11. Sec. g. "If you wear your uniform to civilian social functions,
you must wear the service dress uniform, or mess dress
uniform, or uniform that parallels the civilian dress for the
occasion, that is, coat and tie. You may not wear fatigues or
flight suits to civilian functions."

There is a yearly dinner and musical show in town that celebrates the military, law enforcement and firefighters. During the show they ask for people who active duty or veterans to stand while they play the theme song. Then they call out anyone who has served in other military branches and organizations (CAP will be mentioned in the listing of military organizations), any law enforcement organizations or fire fighting organizations to stand. I've seen active duty military wear service dress to the dinner. Would it be correct & appropriate for me to wear the AF blues to this next year ?

(BTW - NOT trying to spark another contentious uniform debate here...)

[JohnKachenmeister]

Yes, it is proper to wear your AF blues prodly at the recognition dinner.  It is authorized to wear your AF blues at your daughter's Navy boot camp graduation, but remember, the ceremony is about her, and you wearing the uniform of a sister-service officer MAY steal some of what should be her spotlight.

It would, however, make for some great family pictures.

Your call.

[MIKE]

CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1. is a bit more restrictive than your CAPP 151 cite would appear to be.

[RiverAux]

I don't think it would be appropriate to wear the CAP uniform to the graduation since there is no real link to CAP at all. 

For the dinner, if CAP and CAP members have been been invited to attend, then yes I think it would be appropriate as a CAP activity, just as if some group had asked CAP to send a speaker. 

[Eclipse]

I wouldn't see any issue with either example, especially in the latter case where they are actually
recognizing CAP.

Be prepared to use your saluting arm on the RTC.  They don't get many that many officers on that side of the base, and you'll likely be the only one in that shade of blue.

For me, unless I'm there in an official capacity, I usually try to avoid activities specifically geared for veterans such as Memorial Day or Veteran's day, simply because that's "their day".  But other ceremonies like Patriots day, which are more geared to anyone in public service, I'll wear my uniform proudly.

[Walkman]

Cool! Thanks y'all!

[Major Carrales]

I don't think it would be appropriate to wear the CAP uniform to the graduation since there is no real link to CAP at all. 

For the dinner, if CAP and CAP members have been been invited to attend, then yes I think it would be appropriate as a CAP activity, just as if some group had asked CAP to send a speaker.

I'm sorry, River, I cannot agree.  We need to be visible.  Until we get over this fear of being seen we never will be.

As for official permission and, if granted, wear your uniform with pride.

[Fifinella]

In addition to what the regs say, and perhaps you've already done this, you might want to ask your daughter whether she has a preference regarding you wearing your CAP uniform to her graduation.  Just my .02

[Eclipse]

I don't think it would be appropriate to wear the CAP uniform to the graduation since there is no real link to CAP at all. 

For the dinner, if CAP and CAP members have been been invited to attend, then yes I think it would be appropriate as a CAP activity, just as if some group had asked CAP to send a speaker.

I'm sorry, River, I cannot agree.  We need to be visible.  Until we get over this fear of being seen we never will be.

+1, and in this case CAP won't be an "unknown" - we have a decent presence on the NTC and they know us on the RTC from the encampment.

In addition to what the regs say, and perhaps you've already done this, you might want to ask your daughter whether she has a preference regarding you wearing your CAP uniform to her graduation.  Just my .02

+1 there too.

[Short Field]

Wearing your uniform to her graduation is just trolling for salutes.  Any friends she may want to introduce your to will be in a brace and saluting as your get near them. 

Remember - these kids are just finishing basic training, and every one of them will feel obligated to salute you each time you turn around.

[majdomke]

Here are a couple examples of when I've allowed my cadets to wear their uniforms.

CAP Birthday/Anniversary - To school
Squadron Open House Day - To School
Graduation from Middle School/High School
Funeral for one of my cadets' dad who was one of the Oakland PD who were gunned down

As always, they were the service dress uniform, never BDU's.

On a side note, WIWAC, we wore our blues every year on CAP's anniversary to school. A great recruiting opportunity.

[Major Carrales]

Wearing your uniform to her graduation is just trolling for salutes.  Any friends she may want to introduce your to will be in a brace and saluting as your get near them. 

Remember - these kids are just finishing basic training, and every one of them will feel obligated to salute you each time you turn around.

Don't be ridiculous..."trolling for salutes" indeed.  I suggest you apologize to the original threadster and to everyone here who takes CAP seriously for misspeaking or making assumptions to which you know nothing substantial.

Honestly, we are members of the Civil Air Patrol, we should not be afraid of it.  Until we get over this "inferiority complex" that people seem to have about CAP we will never be able to take our place among the communitarians and volunteers of this Nation.

We do a good deal for our nation and we do not deserve to hide in the shadows because we think we are somehow less than the sum of our parts.

I am, as of now, becoming the greatest supporter of a visible CAP.

[Major Carrales]

Here are a couple examples of when I've allowed my cadets to wear their uniforms.

CAP Birthday/Anniversary - To school
Squadron Open House Day - To School
Graduation from Middle School/High School
Funeral for one of my cadets' dad who was one of the Oakland PD who were gunned down

As always, they were the service dress uniform, never BDU's.

On a side note, WIWAC, we wore our blues every year on CAP's anniversary to school. A great recruiting opportunity.

At our Middle School, Tuesday is Blues day and Thursday is BDU.  The meeting occur after school at 1610 hrs, Tuesday is normally class and Thursday is some sort of ES activity/work day.

[Short Field]

Don't be ridiculous..."trolling for salutes" indeed.  I suggest you apologize to the original threadster and to everyone here who takes CAP seriously for misspeaking or making assumptions to which you know nothing substantial.

Chill out!!   I didn't say he was trolling for salutes - I said to wear his uniform to a basic graduation ceremony is trolling for salutes.    Sorry but for him to wear a military style uniform with officer rank and "blend in" is just not going to happen.   Every one of these kids is primed and ready to freeze up and pop a salute at anything that looks like officer rank.    It is his daughter's day, not his day, let her have it.   Wear civies, blend in, and enjoy the day.  It is NOT a CAP function.

Go to Lackland AFB some Sunday afternoon in your CAP uniform and walk down the sidewalk a few blocks from the Base Theater when it lets on some Sunday afternoon.    You will spend all your time returning salutes.  BTDT and I was only a Cadet at the time but once the first Airman saluted, none of the rest were willing to make a mistake and not salute.   

[Major Carrales]

Don't be ridiculous..."trolling for salutes" indeed.  I suggest you apologize to the original threadster and to everyone here who takes CAP seriously for misspeaking or making assumptions to which you know nothing substantial.

Chill out!!   I didn't say he was trolling for salutes - I said to wear his uniform to a basic graduation ceremony is trolling for salutes.    Sorry but for him to wear a military style uniform with officer rank and "blend in" is just not going to happen.   Every one of these kids is primed and ready to freeze up and pop a salute at anything that looks like officer rank.    It is his daughter's day, not his day, let her have it.   Wear civies, blend in, and enjoy the day.  It is NOT a CAP function.

Go to Lackland AFB some Sunday afternoon in your CAP uniform and walk down the sidewalk a few blocks from the Base Theater when it lets on some Sunday afternoon.    You will spend all your time returning salutes.  BTDT and I was only a Cadet at the time but once the first Airman saluted, none of the rest were willing to make a mistake and not salute.

This occasion I prefer not to "chill out," and am still soliciting of you an apology for what I consider an extremely insulting remark that smacks of the issues I mentioned in my above post.

I find that CAP is a big part of many people's lives....a part people want to share with others.  I see no lambasting if a volunteer firefighter,  firefighter proper, policeman or other uniformed community servant wears their uniform to a function...why would that be any different for Civil Air Patrol officers?  The correct answer is that it should not.

Until CAP personnel can embrace what it is to be a CAP Officer, uniform and all, then there will always be this indecision that plagues us.  How can we put forth our best effort and get our good name and deeds out...recruit of people interested in service...and be visible in our communities if people are ashamed of CAP Officership?

I can tell you that most CAP Officers do not seek, or "troll" as you say, for salutes.  Most respectfully return the salute and then explain their status to the initiant of the salute.  If a Lackland Airman renders a salute to a CAP Officer, then that is the time to tell them what CAP is. 

I don't, in CAP uniform, merely wear something that "looks like officer rank," I am a CAP Officer.  Until we establish what that is to people and in a manner that reflect CAP Officership, then we will ALWAYS BE SECOND RATE.  CAP Officers are not inferior USAF OFFICERS or POSERS/PRETENTERS (as your words insinuate) we are what we are...Officers of the CAP. And until people are willing to define that as it is, we will create our own malformed appearance in the minds of others through this self-manifested inferiority complex.

I submit to you that the activity is a CAP ACTIVITY, this individual is representing CAP at a function that means a lot to him.  Its an opportunity to show people we are here, that CAP is an entity.  No, we are not there to "troll salutes," but instead to work something we value as a service to Community, State and Nation into other aspects of our life.

If it seems like I am passionate about this, then rest assured that I am.  The problem that I see is that people tend to relate CAP in terms of the USAF, when in fact CAP is very much its own thing that NEEDS to be defined by us.  Yes, we serve the Air Force, but we are the Civil Air Patrol.  In that, let it be known what we have value that is inherent based on what we do in ES, AE and CAP.  Comparisons to the military, especially the USAF, is a traditional "apples to oranges" argument.

I hope Walkman solicits and gets permission from his commanding officer (Wing Commander if necessary) to represent CAP at this obviously solemn function for his family.  If he needs a letter of support to his Commander from a fellow Squadron Commander, he can have it from me by noon if he gives me his e-mail address.

We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!  We cannot do that if we hide what we are. 

[SarDragon]

Sparky, I was on AD in the Navy, stationed on an Air Base, and in CAP at the same time. In spite of my desire to advertise CAP as an organization, I was reluctant to wear my CAP uniform in any manner not directly associated with a CAP activity. The Navy enlisted folks who worked with me were confused when they saw me wearing officer rank in a blue uniform, and the AF enlisted were unsure whether to render a salute or not.

Some who did decide to salute would engage in a practice called "tag teaming", a practice not reserved for just CAP folks. The "perps" walk down the sidewalk about 8 or 10 paces apart, and salute one after another, just far enough apart to necessitate individual salutes from the officer. It was courtesy gone wild.

Being at any recruit training event in an officer uniform is just as bad, and something I would discourage in the situation above.

Trolling might be a little strong, but that's what it ends up being, someone walking around getting a salute every couple of minutes. I, for one, don't feel compelled to wear out my right arm unnecessarily.

YMMV.

[wuzafuzz]

Obviously opinions vary, but I will share that my son graduates from Marine Corps boot camp in October.  Although I teased him about wearing my CAP uniform to his graduation, I am not planning to do so.  Why?  It is HIS day, and I am there to congratulate him on his accomplishment.  On that day I will not be seeking to draw attention to myself or to advertise CAP.  I'll simply be a proud Dad on October 9th. 

I appreciate Major Carrales' position and do not disagree.  We are CAP officers, no more, no less.  I also agree many freshly minted Marines would experience unecessary awkwardness around me if I wear my uniform.

As for comparisons to other uniformed professionals, all I can say is I didn't wear my police uniform unless I was actually on duty or testifying in court.  I didn't wear it to community service fairs or similar functions unless I was working at them.  It just wasn't done.  Training days?  We usually wore department polo shirts.  I didn't even wear my uniform to my friends police academy graduations.  I did see a Coast Guard Auxiliarist wear his uniform to a police academy graduation; honestly, everyone was wondering who and what the heck he was.  It drew attention away from the graduates, and not all the attention was positive.

If I attend an event in a CAP role I wear my uniform, just as I did to a thank you party thrown by a community we helped recover from a tornado.  No shame or embarassment, and I marketed CAP to plenty of people that day.

[Major Carrales]

Sparky, I was on AD in the Navy, stationed on an Air Base, and in CAP at the same time. In spite of my desire to advertise CAP as an organization, I was reluctant to wear my CAP uniform in any manner not directly associated with a CAP activity. The Navy enlisted folks who worked with me were confused when they saw me wearing officer rank in a blue uniform, and the AF enlisted were unsure whether to render a salute or not.

Some who did decide to salute would engage in a practice called "tag teaming", a practice not reserved for just CAP folks. The "perps" walk down the sidewalk about 8 or 10 paces apart, and salute one after another, just far enough apart to necessitate individual salutes from the officer. It was courtesy gone wild.

Being at any recruit training event in an officer uniform is just as bad, and something I would discourage in the situation above.

Trolling might be a little strong, but that's what it ends up being, someone walking around getting a salute every couple of minutes. I, for one, don't feel compelled to wear out my right arm unnecessarily.

YMMV.

Dave, I cannot see it that way.  I will not lessen what a CAP Officer and Cadet is merely because some active duty folks may or may not salute.  We have a responsibility to maintain the integrity of what a CAP Officer, or Cadet is.

We cannot go around being afraid to look like a CAP Officer.  Now, if a Squadron Commander or base commander forbids it, that is another story.  However, there is never any "shame" in wearing a CAP uniform, even the GOLF Shirt.

[Major Carrales]

Obviously opinions vary, but I will share that my son graduates from Marine Corps boot camp in October.  Although I teased him about wearing my CAP uniform to his graduation, I am not planning to do so.  Why?  It is HIS day, and I am there to congratulate him on his accomplishment.  On that day I will not be seeking to draw attention to myself or to advertise CAP.  I'll simply be a proud Dad on October 9th. 

I appreciate Major Carrales' position and do not disagree.  We are CAP officers, no more, no less.  I also agree many freshly minted Marines would experience unecessary awkwardness around me if I wear my uniform.

As for comparisons to other uniformed professionals, all I can say is I didn't wear my police uniform unless I was actually on duty or testifying in court.  I didn't wear it to community service fairs or similar functions unless I was working at them.  It just wasn't done.  Training days?  We usually wore department polo shirts.  I didn't even wear my uniform to my friends police academy graduations.  I did see a Coast Guard Auxiliarist wear his uniform to a police academy graduation; honestly, everyone was wondering who and what the heck he was.  It drew attention away from the graduates, and not all the attention was positive.

If I attend an event in a CAP role I wear my uniform, just as I did to a thank you party thrown by a community we helped recover from a tornado.  No shame or embarassment, and I marketed CAP to plenty of people that day.

I cannot agree in totality.  While it is "his day," I cannot see how your service as a CAP Officer will belittle the experience.  I would chalk it up to its your call.  But, I cannot entertain the idea that it would be wrong or shameful to wear a CAP uniform.

Furthermore, this idea that a CAP Officer would be actively seeking out salutes for egotistical reasons is insulting.  When I see that practice, among Cadets or Seniors, I but a quick end to it.  We are not there to be something we are not...we are there to be what we are and with pride.

Be more proud of what you are, than ashamed of what you are not.

[Airrace]

Yes she can wear her blues but have her first check with her Squadron Commander.