Another flightsuit idea....

[Hawk200]

The Air Force said flat out...no fat/fuzzies in green flight suits. Whether we agree or disagree...it's their ballpark. That's why the blue flightsuit came into being for CAP a few years ago.

I keep seeing this mentioned, but so far, noone has been able to show me their refusal.

BTW...if we get the AF approval (it's already been approved by the NB) for cloth name tags, then the rank would not appear if we were to follow the standard AF design. So rank on the shoulder would be the only place the rank would appear.

You state that as if it couldn't be changed. It would be pretty simple, just do a one line nametag with Rank then Name (as in First M. Last). It would have to change when people promote, but it's a small price that everyone would have to pay. There would no longer be some people getting a suit for $50 (or less), and others spending $125 (or more). Seems like a very small price to pay for actually getting everyone in the same uniform. It would be fair cost to everyone. One less thing to sew, as well.

As far as the only place that rank appears, that's not completely accurate. Where do you think enlisted wear theirs? Those enlisted personnel in the military have for more aircrew training in their jobs than those in CAP will ever get. They seem to be able to do their jobs just fine without having their rank insignia prominently displayed.

[mikeylikey]

I keep seeing this mentioned, but so far, no one has been able to show me their refusal.

There is a lot of "the AF said this, the AF said that", and you are correct, very few occasions can we find written documentation.  It makes more sense that CAP NHQ told the AF no FAT/FUZZIES, and they agreed.  Perhaps someone at NHQ decided to screw over that group of the membership.  That is more plausible than the AF after 50 years saying "get out of our uniforms", when we have Cadets that can't even find a uniform that will fit them because they are so HUGE. 

[DNall]

The AF hasn't had ht/wt standards for 50 years. That's a more modern invention. When it came along, AF told CAP to comply. At the time, they meant CAP to comply as a membership standard, just as AF was doing, but didn't have the authority from congress to enforce the order. What they have authority to take away from us w/o endangering critical operations is uniforms. That's what they did. CAP was ingenious enough to create alternatives, which were at the time civilian cloths that everyone already had with the addition of an ID/nametag of some sort. Those weren't uniforms & not a lot AF could or wanted to do about it. It's just within the last decade that any "corporate-style" alternatives appear anything remotely like a uniform of any kind, much less an AF affiliated one.

[Dragoon]

My thoughts are all over the place.

The concept of everyone in green nomex without grade is a great one - we don't need stuff on our shoulders - the grade is still displayed on the chest, and operationally it's about 101 quals, not grade anyway.  Plus it could put us all in USAF clothes.

But nomex is expensive.  Methinks many folks would continue to choose lower cost alternatives like golf shirts and blue utilities as long as those are legal for flight wear.  Not much gain in uniformity.

At least with blue nomex, blue utilities, and golf shirts, everyone's the same color.  Perhaps we'd be better off going this route and eliminating green nomex.

Of course if your goal is not uniformity, but rather a way to let a subset of  overweight and/or bearded folks wear a USAF suit, then it's a fine idea.  It cetainly doesn't make us any LESS uniform.



As an aside, we put an entire squadron of seniors in blue uniforms - a handful splurged on blue nomex, everyone else went for blue utilities and/or field uniforms.  No golf shirts allowed.   Everyone blended together extremely well, and it helped create that sense of unit cohesion I think we all wish for.



 

[Hawk200]

The concept of everyone in green nomex without grade is a great one - we don't need stuff on our shoulders - the grade is still displayed on the chest, and operationally it's about 101 quals, not grade anyway.  Plus it could put us all in USAF clothes.

Something I was thinking about when I suggested it.

But nomex is expensive. 

Green nomex isn't. I've gotten six green fliightsuits for what it would cost to buy one blue one. I was considering cost too.

At least with blue nomex, blue utilities, and golf shirts, everyone's the same color.  Perhaps we'd be better off going this route and eliminating green nomex.

But it's back to being expensive again.

Of course if your goal is not uniformity, but rather a way to let a subset of  overweight and/or bearded folks wear a USAF suit, then it's a fine idea.  It cetainly doesn't make us any LESS uniform.

Actually, the goal is uniformity. Everyone would be in the same green suit, and I'm not super attached to my shoulder rank anyway. One less thing to sew on. I'd sacrifice it now, but there wouldn't be any reason to it. For uniformity purposes, it's a sacrifice I don't have any problem making, and one that would have legitimate purpose.

[A.Member]

Uniform comittee thread got locked, so thought I'd throw this idea out on a new one. Just a proposal.

Flightsuits: Propose eliminating the blue flightsuit (they're expensive).

In turn, eliminate rank insignia on the sage green flightsuit, for all members.  Rank would be on the nameplate as it is now. Headgear would remain the standard flightcap.

Sage flightsuits are available pretty inexpensively, if one shops around. I have gotten a few, new in the bag, for $50 or less.

It would be cheaper, more uniform, one less insignia item to worry about. No concerns about matching insignia, or even creating them for some of our current ranks that it doesn't exist for (Flight Officer ranks specifically).

Thoughts?

Honestly, horrible idea.  Yet another solution in search of a problem.   

[Hawk200]

Honestly, horrible idea.  Yet another solution in search of a problem.   

OK, so in your opinion, it's a horrible idea. Why?

[Dragoon]

Green nomex isn't. I've gotten six green fliightsuits for what it would cost to buy one blue one. I was considering cost too. 

The fat guy's not gonna be able to buy used USAF suit or get one handed to him from Wing Supply -  because he's big, he's going to have to order it brand new - and perhaps even special order it to get that XXL size.  Which costs $$$$.  Sooo...he's likely to stay in some other uniform.  Not much uniformity gain.

At least with blue nomex, blue utilities, and golf shirts, everyone's the same color.  Perhaps we'd be better off going this route and eliminating green nomex.

But it's back to being expensive again.

[/quote] 

Not really.  Blue utilities (non-nomex) are cheap.  And they blend perfectly with nomex.  And even BBDUs blend better with blue flightsuits than they do with green flightsuits.  My guess is that getting all aircrew in something blue would be the cheapest way to increase uniformity.

[DNall]

Again, FEMA has guidelines coming out for all emergency services. CAP will have to meet those in order to do any missions for the fed govt or any state/local that gets any federal funds. That's a much bigger deal for GT than aircrew, but one of the required items for aircrew is PPE flight suit. In other words, flight suits are going to be mandatory for all ES flight in 18mos - 2yrs.

As far as the expense of an XXL flt suit when we already have to offload fuel for a standard crew/gear, and especially when we're adding more tech items all the time... kind of a moot point don't you think?

[Hawk200]

Green nomex isn't. I've gotten six green fliightsuits for what it would cost to buy one blue one. I was considering cost too. 

The fat guy's not gonna be able to buy used USAF suit or get one handed to him from Wing Supply -  because he's big, he's going to have to order it brand new - and perhaps even special order it to get that XXL size.  Which costs $$$$.  Sooo...he's likely to stay in some other uniform.  Not much uniformity gain.

At least with blue nomex, blue utilities, and golf shirts, everyone's the same color.  Perhaps we'd be better off going this route and eliminating green nomex.

But it's back to being expensive again.

Not really.  Blue utilities (non-nomex) are cheap.  And they blend perfectly with nomex.  And even BBDUs blend better with blue flightsuits than they do with green flightsuits.  My guess is that getting all aircrew in something blue would be the cheapest way to increase uniformity.

Problem is that not everyone that ever shows up to a mission base is going to be wearing just blue uniforms. There is always going to be  a mix.

As for blue BDU's blending with blue flightsuits, why is that so important? Search missions aren't made or failed by a fashion show.

Green flighsuits are obtainable up to a 52 extra long. And they would still be cheaper than a blue one. We've got more than a few "extra large" guys in my Army unit that have them. They're not unobtainable.

[isuhawkeye]

none of our opinions matter.  Col Hodgkins has publicly stated (in my presence) that the Air Force considers the green nomex suit to be an Air Force uniform, and as such CAP WILL be held to height weight standards for its use. 

we have brought this issue up 3 different times durring my career, and it has been rejected each time.

do we ever learn our lessons?
this note posted from a TREO phone

[sparks]

DNall,  where did you find the FEMA intention to require flight suits in a few years for all Aircrew members? You also describe them as PPE (personal protection equipment) which to me means NOMEX. Is that correct?

[Dragoon]

Again, FEMA has guidelines coming out for all emergency services. CAP will have to meet those in order to do any missions for the fed govt or any state/local that gets any federal funds. That's a much bigger deal for GT than aircrew, but one of the required items for aircrew is PPE flight suit. In other words, flight suits are going to be mandatory for all ES flight in 18mos - 2yrs.

As far as the expense of an XXL flt suit when we already have to offload fuel for a standard crew/gear, and especially when we're adding more tech items all the time... kind of a moot point don't you think?

Not from a cost perspective.  The senior will still have to pay for the suit.

It will be a cold day in hell when CAP precludes someone from being aircrew because they're big.    They'll just pair 'em up with the little guys.

[Dragoon]

Green nomex isn't. I've gotten six green fliightsuits for what it would cost to buy one blue one. I was considering cost too. 

The fat guy's not gonna be able to buy used USAF suit or get one handed to him from Wing Supply -  because he's big, he's going to have to order it brand new - and perhaps even special order it to get that XXL size.  Which costs $$$$.  Sooo...he's likely to stay in some other uniform.  Not much uniformity gain.

At least with blue nomex, blue utilities, and golf shirts, everyone's the same color.  Perhaps we'd be better off going this route and eliminating green nomex.

But it's back to being expensive again.

Not really.  Blue utilities (non-nomex) are cheap.  And they blend perfectly with nomex.  And even BBDUs blend better with blue flightsuits than they do with green flightsuits.  My guess is that getting all aircrew in something blue would be the cheapest way to increase uniformity.

Problem is that not everyone that ever shows up to a mission base is going to be wearing just blue uniforms. There is always going to be  a mix.

As for blue BDU's blending with blue flightsuits, why is that so important? Search missions aren't made or failed by a fashion show.

Green flighsuits are obtainable up to a 52 extra long. And they would still be cheaper than a blue one. We've got more than a few "extra large" guys in my Army unit that have them. They're not unobtainable.

My point was that if we eliminated green nomex, then we could put people in blue cheaper.  Not blue NOMEX - but blue.  And everyone in blue is more uniform than some in blue and some in green.

But if you aren't interested in blending uniform together (i.e. increasing uniformity) - then there is no reason to change the current set as well. So what if some guys wear green and some guys wear blue?   

But I thought uniformity was one of your arguments.

Green Nomex may be cheaper than blue Nomex, but it ain't cheaper than blue poly/cotton utilities.

If you wanna talk safety (i.e. we HAVE to wear NOMEX) then it's a different ball of wax.   but if the goal is uniformity, methinks blue flight suits would be the cheaper way to get there.

[Hawk200]

My point was that if we eliminated green nomex, then we could put people in blue cheaper.  Not blue NOMEX - but blue.  And everyone in blue is more uniform than some in blue and some in green.

I see you're talking about broad uniformity: everyone in the same uniform regardless of their duties on a mission. It's not a technique that will work. It's also a case of taking uniformity too far. Different tasks require different equipment. Uniforms are essentially equipment, a tool for a job.

But if you aren't interested in blending uniform together (i.e. increasing uniformity) - then there is no reason to change the current set as well. So what if some guys wear green and some guys wear blue?   

But I thought uniformity was one of your arguments.

Green Nomex may be cheaper than blue Nomex, but it ain't cheaper than blue poly/cotton utilities.

If you wanna talk safety (i.e. we HAVE to wear NOMEX) then it's a different ball of wax.   but if the goal is uniformity, methinks blue flight suits would be the cheaper way to get there.

The idea of green nomex for everyone included the safety factor, but at less expense. Green nomex flightsuits are available for much less than blue ones. Everyone, regardless of height/weight/grooming, would have access to the same protective equipment at the same cost. A blue jumpsuit doesn't cover the safety factor.

There's really not an issue of having groundpounders in different colors than aircrew, although some people make it one. The equipment is a different color, that's all.

[Dragoon]

My point was that if we eliminated green nomex, then we could put people in blue cheaper.  Not blue NOMEX - but blue.  And everyone in blue is more uniform than some in blue and some in green.

I see you're talking about broad uniformity: everyone in the same uniform regardless of their duties on a mission. It's not a technique that will work. It's also a case of taking uniformity too far. Different tasks require different equipment. Uniforms are essentially equipment, a tool for a job.

Umm...no.  Like you, I'm interested in getting all AIRCREW in the same uniform.  And failing that, at least in the same color.  Even if an aircrew had 1 guy in blue nomex, 1 guy in blue utilities, and 1 guy in BBDUs, they'd still be more uniform than they are today.  A small step in the right direction.

The idea of green nomex for everyone included the safety factor, but at less expense. Green nomex flightsuits are available for much less than blue ones. Everyone, regardless of height/weight/grooming, would have access to the same protective equipment at the same cost. A blue jumpsuit doesn't cover the safety factor.

You're right - allowing everyone to wear green nomex would allow folks to buy some fireproofing cheaper.  But that wouldn't affect uniformity much at all - because golf shirts are still cheaper than nomex.  And if you look around in PAO photos, that's what half our aircrew wear.

You'd only increase uniformity if you MANDATED nomex.  And that's a much bigger pill to swallow.

This has been brought to the NB before, and shot down.  Because, frankly, we don't burn enough folks to be worth the expense.  Impact kills many, many more than fire, and we don't require helmets!  It doesn't seem to be a factor to CAP's insurance company - GA pilots don't get discounts for nomex.   And our members want to wear cheap stuff like golf shirts.  Folks in hot places claim that Nomex in an non-airconditioned plane constitutes a bigger safety hazard than wearing something cooler.

I'm not sayin' I agree with any of this, but I've seen the debates before.  I don't think you can win.

Sooo...if you can't win on mandating Nomex for aircrews, the cheapest way to increase uniformity is....go blue!  :-)

But good luck trying.

[Hawk200]

My point was that if we eliminated green nomex, then we could put people in blue cheaper.  Not blue NOMEX - but blue.  And everyone in blue is more uniform than some in blue and some in green.

I see you're talking about broad uniformity: everyone in the same uniform regardless of their duties on a mission. It's not a technique that will work. It's also a case of taking uniformity too far. Different tasks require different equipment. Uniforms are essentially equipment, a tool for a job.

Umm...no.  Like you, I'm interested in getting all AIRCREW in the same uniform.  And failing that, at least in the same color.  Even if an aircrew had 1 guy in blue nomex, 1 guy in blue utilities, and 1 guy in BBDUs, they'd still be more uniform than they are today.  A small step in the right direction.

Yes, you are talking about broad uniformity: Everyone in the same color. I'm talking a specific uniform, everyone in a flightsuit wearing green.

Saying a BBDU and a blue flightsuit are uniform is comparing apples and pears. Even if they're wearing the same color, the uniforms are configured differently. They aren't uniform, as the uniforms have different configurations. A single color doesn't establish uniformity. If that were true, then any police at the mission site would also be thought of as part of our organization.

The idea of green nomex for everyone included the safety factor, but at less expense. Green nomex flightsuits are available for much less than blue ones. Everyone, regardless of height/weight/grooming, would have access to the same protective equipment at the same cost. A blue jumpsuit doesn't cover the safety factor.

You're right - allowing everyone to wear green nomex would allow folks to buy some fireproofing cheaper.  But that wouldn't affect uniformity much at all - because golf shirts are still cheaper than nomex.  And if you look around in PAO photos, that's what half our aircrew wear.

You'd only increase uniformity if you MANDATED nomex.  And that's a much bigger pill to swallow.

This has been brought to the NB before, and shot down.  Because, frankly, we don't burn enough folks to be worth the expense.  Impact kills many, many more than fire, and we don't require helmets!  It doesn't seem to be a factor to CAP's insurance company - GA pilots don't get discounts for nomex.   And our members want to wear cheap stuff like golf shirts.  Folks in hot places claim that Nomex in an non-airconditioned plane constitutes a bigger safety hazard than wearing something cooler.

I'm not sayin' I agree with any of this, but I've seen the debates before.  I don't think you can win.

Sooo...if you can't win on mandating Nomex for aircrews, the cheapest way to increase uniformity is....go blue!  :-)

But good luck trying.

As for Nomex, from what I've read on here there are regions that mandate it. So there is premise to having a single color flightsuit. Everybody would get the same gear at about the same price.

Overall, it's an idea I threw out there. I can pretty much guarantee that it would never be considered anyway. It was just a thought for discussion, and not one to get heated about.

[Dragoon]

Yes, you are talking about broad uniformity: Everyone in the same color. I'm talking a specific uniform, everyone in a flightsuit wearing green.

Saying a BBDU and a blue flightsuit are uniform is comparing apples and pears. Even if they're wearing the same color, the uniforms are configured differently. They aren't uniform, as the uniforms have different configurations. A single color doesn't establish uniformity. If that were true, then any police at the mission site would also be thought of as part of our organization.

Uniformity is about looking the same.  "Apples and Pears" do not look the same.  Try "Oranges and Tangerines."  Sure, when you get close you can tell the differences, but at a distance they are much more uniform.  Same with putting everyone in the same color.

Uniformity comes in degrees.  Perfect uniformity is everyone in the same suit, with the same haircut, wearing the same badges.    We all know that ain't gonna happen.  So we've already agreed on less than perfect uniformity. And in that world, everyone in blue is much more uniform than some in blue and some in green.  Which is the best I think you're gonna get.

I really really don't think you can make green nomex mandatory for aircrews.  The NB simply won't support.

The idea of green nomex for everyone included the safety factor, but at less expense. Green nomex flightsuits are available for much less than blue ones. Everyone, regardless of height/weight/grooming, would have access to the same protective equipment at the same cost. A blue jumpsuit doesn't cover the safety factor.

You're right - allowing everyone to wear green nomex would allow folks to buy some fireproofing cheaper.  But that wouldn't affect uniformity much at all - because golf shirts are still cheaper than nomex.  And if you look around in PAO photos, that's what half our aircrew wear.

You'd only increase uniformity if you MANDATED nomex.  And that's a much bigger pill to swallow.

This has been brought to the NB before, and shot down.  Because, frankly, we don't burn enough folks to be worth the expense.  Impact kills many, many more than fire, and we don't require helmets!  It doesn't seem to be a factor to CAP's insurance company - GA pilots don't get discounts for nomex.   And our members want to wear cheap stuff like golf shirts.  Folks in hot places claim that Nomex in an non-airconditioned plane constitutes a bigger safety hazard than wearing something cooler.

I'm not sayin' I agree with any of this, but I've seen the debates before.  I don't think you can win.

Sooo...if you can't win on mandating Nomex for aircrews, the cheapest way to increase uniformity is....go blue!  :-)

But good luck trying.

As for Nomex, from what I've read on here there are regions that mandate it. So there is premise to having a single color flightsuit. Everybody would get the same gear at about the same price.

Overall, it's an idea I threw out there. I can pretty much guarantee that it would never be considered anyway. It was just a thought for discussion, and not one to get heated about.
[/quote]

No heat here - I get what you're trying to do, and as a thin guy with money I'd support it.  But as a realist, I agree it's not achievable.  And neither is eliminating green nomex - because too many folks either have free ones, or just looooove pretending to be top gun.

So we'll continue with a mishmash of uniforms in the cockpit.

[Dragoon]

Yes, you are talking about broad uniformity: Everyone in the same color. I'm talking a specific uniform, everyone in a flightsuit wearing green.

Saying a BBDU and a blue flightsuit are uniform is comparing apples and pears. Even if they're wearing the same color, the uniforms are configured differently. They aren't uniform, as the uniforms have different configurations. A single color doesn't establish uniformity. If that were true, then any police at the mission site would also be thought of as part of our organization.

Uniformity is about looking the same.  "Apples and Pears" do not look the same.  Try "Oranges and Tangerines."  :-)  Sure, when you get close you can tell the differences, but at a distance they are much more uniform.  Same with putting everyone in the same color.

Uniformity comes in degrees.  Perfect uniformity is everyone in the same suit, with the same haircut, wearing the same badges.    We all know that ain't gonna happen.  So we've already agreed on less than perfect uniformity. And in that world, everyone in blue is much more uniform than some in blue and some in green.  Which is the best I think you're gonna get.

I really really don't think you can make green nomex mandatory for aircrews.  The NB simply won't support.

As for Nomex, from what I've read on here there are regions that mandate it. So there is premise to having a single color flightsuit. Everybody would get the same gear at about the same price.

Overall, it's an idea I threw out there. I can pretty much guarantee that it would never be considered anyway. It was just a thought for discussion, and not one to get heated about.

No heat here - I get what you're trying to do, and as a thin guy with money who doesn't buy the "comfort = safety" argument,  I'd support it.  But as a realist, I agree it's not achievable.  And neither is eliminating green nomex - because too many folks either have free ones, or just looooove pretending to be top gun.

So we'll continue with a mishmash of uniforms in the cockpit.
[/quote]

[Hawk200]

Uniformity comes in degrees.  Perfect uniformity is everyone in the same suit, with the same haircut, wearing the same badges. 

Perfect uniformity as you described is dictatorial, eliminating the individuality for the sake of a single appearance. It's about no one being different. Would you have them all blue eyed and blond hair, too? Because that's the next step.

No heat here - I get what you're trying to do, and as a thin guy with money who doesn't buy the "comfort = safety" argument,  I'd support it.  But as a realist, I agree it's not achievable.  And neither is eliminating green nomex - because too many folks either have free ones, or just looooove pretending to be top gun.

You don't consider a flightsuit comfortable? Honestly? You'd be the first I ever knew that thought so.

Anyway, like I said, it will never be considered. The thread wasn't about putting everyone in the same mold, it was about allowing everyone to wear the same thing at the same expense, with the same insignia configuration (which most people would consider rather uniform).

I've seen the concepts of uniformity that you're ascribing to. Including one unit commander that forbid the members of his unit to wear badges on their uniforms. To him, it wasn't "uniform" to do so. He didn't last very long. The concept of uniformity can be taken way too far. It's never done in huge leaps, only in small steps, sometimes even inches at a time.