Ground team uniform

[Hawk200]

So rather then a useless 'uniform,' have those members put their money back into the program to buy cadets field jackets. We're all in this together.

I've always thought so. Can't think of how many times I've bought a cadet a pair of boots, or a jacket, or even something as small as a pack of t-shirts or a belt.

A lot of people will go out and buy the latest and greatest hi-speed gear, and spend hundreds of dollars on fancy MOLLE/ALICE equipment. Try to get them to buy someone else a pack of t-shirts? Oh, no way, bub. Don't buy for anyone but me!

You'd think you'd asked them to give a kidney.

I don't think an orange shirt is a bad idea, but I don't think it's really practical to create a whole uniform. It sounds simplistic, but I think the easiest thing would be just to authorize an orange shirt, much like the ones we've seen in this thread. Wear it with the existing uniforms: BDU pants, boots, even the same T-shirt. You could go from BDU's to ground team uniform with a shirt change. Make sure you've got you're vest on over all your gear (it's kinda brainless to put on an orange vest and then cover it up with web gear), and you'd pretty much be good.

I know there are people that have to have a fashion ensemble, but that's not what we're about. There's no reason to create fancy stuff when a single piece will do.

[JayT]

Amen!

[Ford73Diesel]

I've always thought so. Can't think of how many times I've bought a cadet a pair of boots, or a jacket, or even something as small as a pack of t-shirts or a belt.

Thank you. You are a good person for doing that. A lot of cadets can't afford insignia and small things like that.

[Eclipse]

Its all about the BLING!

[_]

It sounds simplistic, but I think the easiest thing would be just to authorize an orange shirt, much like the ones we've seen in this thread. Wear it with the existing uniforms: BDU pants, boots, even the same T-shirt. You could go from BDU's to ground team uniform with a shirt change. Make sure you've got you're vest on over all your gear (it's kinda brainless to put on an orange vest and then cover it up with web gear), and you'd pretty much be good.

I'd love the same thing but it'll never fly.  If you still wear the bdu pants it's considered just a modified air force uniform, and they're not going to let that happen.  The CAWG uniform is completely CAP only. 

I wouldn't even mind seeing yellow or orange undershirts and ball caps.  I was originally in NJ wing and when you went through the GSAR school you were issued a yellow hat and yellow t-shirt.  Even now the GTM task guide allows for the wear of yellow hats.  A bright hat alone increases your visibility greatly even when a person has a vest on.  I think it's a matter of me making sure they can always see me.  If they can see me, their head is visible to me which means I can see a bright hat even if the rest of their body is obscured by a bush.  I know there will be those who will claim that's bunk but this has been my experience. 

I think an orange long sleeve two pocket shirt looks very professional and distinguishes us as search and rescue people and not the military come to invade.  Even if I was the only one on my team to wear that uniform I think it would be helpful as a GTL with my interactions with the public and other civilian teams. 

I don't really see any of these options coming to my wing or CAP as a whole unless something is mandated in this thing FEMA is doing.  So for now and the foreseeable future I'll continue the way I've been doing it for a while and it'll work just like before but I do think things can be improved upon.

This is just my opinion.

[Eclipse]

The majority of the stuff we're talking about could be worn with or in place of the standard uniform in the field.  I wear an (approved) bright orange hat in heavily wooded areas - nothing wrong with that.

The trouble starts when people wear it to meetings, etc.  As soon as you allow this stuff as an option, invariably someone complains they can "only afford one uniform", and the next you know there are orange hard hats in formation.

GO and check the old Cadetstuff "bad uniform threads" and you'll find any number of cadets (and seniors) wearing whistles, parade belts, bright t-shirts, berets, etc., to regular unit meetings and other places  they are in appropriate.

The basic vest works just fine in the majority of the environments we work in. Where it doesn't the states have an addendum or supplement. 

Since in hot weather you should keep your BDU shirt >on<, the argument about bright t-shirts holds no water on my teams.

[_]

I don't want to keep going back and fourth but I want to add a couple things.

Let me be clear.  I have absolutely no intention of creating the MD branch of the PA rangers.  (No insult is meant towards those of PA wing)  The things I've brought up are for in the field use only. 

As for bright shirts in most cases no that won't be the outermost garment.  But in the summer when it's in the 90's with 100% humidity it may become the outer garment.  If the threat from heat out weighs the threat from getting a couple scratches I'll have them remove their blouse.  If something changes I'll tell them to put it back on.  I don't mess around with their protection, if that means they're gonna be hot and sweat a lot, so be it if it protects them.

I have seen and been in cases where a bright t-shirt is helpful.  The regs say however that I can't wear it so I don't.  I wouldn't mind seeing something put in the regs that allow these for optional wear. 

I can see a benefit to any of these uniform combos/items.  I also know all the reasons why they are bad or don't work etc.  I'd like to see some of these things and if they come about I'll use them to my advantage.

[JayT]

I don't want to keep going back and fourth but I want to add a couple things.

Let me be clear.  I have absolutely no intention of creating the MD branch of the PA rangers.  (No insult is meant towards those of PA wing)  The things I've brought up are for in the field use only. 

As for bright shirts in most cases no that won't be the outermost garment.  But in the summer when it's in the 90's with 100% humidity it may become the outer garment.  If the threat from heat out weighs the threat from getting a couple scratches I'll have them remove their blouse.  If something changes I'll tell them to put it back on.  I don't mess around with their protection, if that means they're gonna be hot and sweat a lot, so be it if it protects them.

I have seen and been in cases where a bright t-shirt is helpful.  The regs say however that I can't wear it so I don't.  I wouldn't mind seeing something put in the regs that allow these for optional wear. 

I can see a benefit to any of these uniform combos/items.  I also know all the reasons why they are bad or don't work etc.  I'd like to see some of these things and if they come about I'll use them to my advantage.

I can't see any real value of the tee shirt. I keep my BDU shirt on, and the sleeves down no matter what the weather.

If someone is wearing this 'Ground Team Uniform' and gets hurt, will insurance cover them? What if a member starts wearing it to regular meetings?

Lets be honest, a lot of our ES work can be done in the golf shirt combo, and the rest of it in BDUs/DFUs with a vest on over it. Orange ball cap or knit cap, good, but the rest of it is just so much wasted money.

I love seeing cadets with $300 assault vests and their disney jacket on underneath it.

[Eclipse]

Word...

[Hawk200]

I'd love the same thing but it'll never fly.  If you still wear the bdu pants it's considered just a modified air force uniform, and they're not going to let that happen. 

How do you know it's never going to fly? Have you tried? There's a number of cases where people say that, and aren't really sure. The best way is to try. You try to sell it on both the aspect that it's safety oriented, and would reduce expense to our members. If the Air Force doesn't want to permit it, make them tell us no.

I think an orange long sleeve two pocket shirt looks very professional and distinguishes us as search and rescue people and not the military come to invade. 

You'd be surprised how many SAR teams I've seen on both the web, and in person that are wearing some type of bright orange top, and camo pants. I wouldn't consider it really all that far fetched. It's very practical.  And military utilities are pretty rugged. They're suited to the job at hand.

[Eclipse]

The best way is to try. You try to sell it on both the aspect that it's safety oriented, and would reduce expense to our members. If the Air Force doesn't want to permit it, make them tell us no.

Safety, maybe.  But how does adding another uniform combination reduce expenses?

You'd be surprised how many SAR teams I've seen on both the web, and in person that are wearing some type of bright orange top, and camo pants. I wouldn't consider it really all that far fetched. It's very practical.  And military utilities are pretty rugged. They're suited to the job at hand.

True enough, however the majority of SAR teams have one mission - SAR, great for them, but we have at least 3, only only one of which is ES.  One of the others is a paramilitary program which stresses appearance, and drills / formation.  The last thing we need is people in blaze orange in formation because all they can afford is one combo.

Leaving it as-is, with approved local supplements is fine, and avoids the above completely.

[Hawk200]

Safety, maybe.  But how does adding another uniform combination reduce expenses?

Simple logic. Many people want to create a uniform ensemble of hat, shirt, pants, boots, along with the accoutrements of the various belts, patches, insignia, t-shirts, etc.

Instead of creating a new uniform, the orange shirt would go with the existing utilities. You don't have to go into the specifications of "You have to wear these pants, this t-shirt, this belt, these boots."

Instead of all that, it's a simple matter of "Oh, just wear the BDU, and change your shirt." The reduction is that instead of a whole new outfit, there's only one thing to buy. Everything else they should already have. Which way would you rather spend money? Twenty five bucks on a shirt, or maybe 75 to 100 on a completely new uniform?

...The last thing we need is people in blaze orange in formation because all they can afford is one combo.

True. But basing an alternate on an existing uniform is a lot easier than creating a new one. If someone decides they want to just wear orange, that's a different problem altogether. The idea is to minimize additional items.

Another side of the coin is that you can be in a standard utility uniform, and if you get called out from an activity, you don't have as much to carry.

But to address one point you made, people should be buying the stuff they need rather than just what they want. They should be investing in BDU's in their entirety, and worrying about other hi-speed stuff later.

[JohnKachenmeister]

We are not some local "Posse."  We are the auxiliary of the US Air Force, and have been honored by the Air Force to wear the uniform.  This honor stems from our combat heritage.

Wear your Air Force uniform with pride.  And an orange vest.

After all, we haven't lost anyone in the woods yet that I'm aware of.

[Dragoon]

There are 3 issues related to GT visibility.

1.  Being seen by airplanes.

2.  Being seen by your GTL while working in a search line.

3.  Being seen by searchers if you become lost.


#2 on this list is best handled by a colored hat.  Searchers are often slogging through stuff up to their necks - the vest (or shirt) gets buried in the brush and all you can see is the green camo hat!  Better to mandate a bright colored one.

#1 and #3 are handled just fine with vests.  I would like to see a single, standard vest type mandated.  After all we are supposed to be in uniform.  Having one guy with a yellow one, two guys with orange ones, one guy with gold scotchlite, some wearing  closing vests and some with big types, one guy with the high speed vest that says "CAP" all over it in red white and blue, and one guy wearing a blue vest that says "SAR" on the back looks pretty amateurish.

The vest covers up any uniform we're wearing - effectively, the vest becomes the uniform.


And while I can understand the idea of "dressing like the locals" I don't think that's as big a concern as "presenting a uniform, professional appearance."  Standing out isn't neccesarily a bad thing, if you do it right.

[BillB]

There is a single authorized vest that is listed in 39-1. It can be worn everyplace except California for some reason. But members buy the cheapest vest they can find, thus the differences in GT vests. Both Vanguard and The Hock carry the approved vest.

[PHall]

There is a single authorized vest that is listed in 39-1. It can be worn everyplace except California for some reason. But members buy the cheapest vest they can find, thus the differences in GT vests. Both Vanguard and The Hock carry the approved vest.

Funny, I don't remember seeing anything in the CAWG Supplement to CAPM 39-1 about vests being forbidden.

You got a reg cite or are you just trying to be funny?

[Larry Mangum]

Please cite where in CAPR 39-1 it  specifies a single authorized vest.

[Eclipse]

There is a single authorized vest that is listed in 39-1. It can be worn everyplace except California for some reason. But members buy the cheapest vest they can find, thus the differences in GT vests. Both Vanguard and The Hock carry the approved vest.

There is no specifically authorized safety vest. The one sold by Vanguard is fine, but not the only choice.

The word "vest" appears 4 times in 39-1, and the only specification indicated is:

Safety Vest Orange plastic, mesh, or cloth. Will be worn when participating in ground team activities.

The specification in the Ground Team and Urban Direction Finding Team Task book is:
Vest, reflective Orange

Anything which fits the above is authorized.

[SarDragon]

There is a single authorized vest that is listed in 39-1. It can be worn everyplace except California for some reason. But members buy the cheapest vest they can find, thus the differences in GT vests. Both Vanguard and The Hock carry the approved vest.

There is apparently some (as yet unverified or substantiated) conflict with CA law. There was discussion on here or CS some time ago regarding the unwillingness of a supplier to send their product to a CA address.

[BigMojo]

Any comment about the new picture on CAP.gov's frontpage...