Golf shirts winning in LA

[Carl C]

Obvious problem with the polo shirt is that you don't know who you are talking to - not only does it not have the grade on the shirt but some of them don't even have a name. And face it, the polo shirt is "old people" clothing. If you like it, fine, but it does tend to look like something "old" people would wear. Nothing wrong with "old" people by the way... I just think almost anything other uniform would look better.

Hmmm...   You would be talking WITH a fellow CAP member.      "Old person" clothing.   "Nothing wrong with old people?"   

[Grumpy]

Speaking of "old" people.  Nothing looks sillier than a 65 year old Capt.  But I guess with the way some of you are talking they just have to wear the AF uniform so they can be a 65 year old Capt. be saluted.

Oh yes, you can order the golf shirt with wings and you name and rank embroidered on it so people will know who you are.

[SarDragon]

Speaking of "old" people.  Nothing looks sillier than a 65 year old Capt.  But I guess with the way some of you are talking they just have to wear the AF uniform so they can be a 65 year old Capt. be saluted.

Oh yes, you can order the golf shirt with wings and you name and rank embroidered on it so people will know who you are.

No rank, Grump.

[jpravain]

When I was a young senior member, I wore a combination of the CAP blue nomex, CAP jumpsuit (yuk) and BDU. I personally believe any CAP flying uniform should not resemble combat uniforms. Civil Air Patrol is NOT the US Air force. It is only the auxiliary (sometimes). Uniforms worn on SAR/DR missions should be brighter colors i.e. CAP flightsuit (older royal blue that is being phased out). Even a combination of red/blue flightsuits would be desirable. In my opinion, I think it's nonsense to wear nomex in single engine civil aircraft in a non combat role. Most of the single engine controlled crashes I've seen did not result in fire anyway. So the crew's visibility from the air would be more important in a mishap. CAP should NOT/NEVER be confused with the real Air Force. I wish/hope one day CAP will fall under the Dept of Homeland Security under a new name like the Coast Guard is and all this foolishness in regards to uniforms/ranks/titles/scandals etc. etc. will go away. The Air Force already has a cadet program in place in the high schools......but that is another can of worms. I like to see the organization go this route http://www.casara.ca/ and still be under control of the federal gov't.

[Flying Pig]

I love the blue royal blue flight suit!  (Not to be confused with the jumpsuit)  On the Fossett search there was a pilot wearing a darker blue flight suit and it looked great.  Even the Coast Guard red flight suits are great.

But I guess a big argument for the green suit is that we can get them surplus a lot cheaper and in greater supply.

[Hawk200]

When I was a young senior member, I wore a combination of the CAP blue nomex, CAP jumpsuit (yuk) and BDU. I personally believe any CAP flying uniform should not resemble combat uniforms. Civil Air Patrol is NOT the US Air force. It is only the auxiliary (sometimes). Uniforms worn on SAR/DR missions should be brighter colors i.e. CAP flightsuit (older royal blue that is being phased out). Even a combination of red/blue flightsuits would be desirable. In my opinion, I think it's nonsense to wear nomex in single engine civil aircraft in a non combat role. Most of the single engine controlled crashes I've seen did not result in fire anyway. So the crew's visibility from the air would be more important in a mishap. CAP should NOT/NEVER be confused with the real Air Force. I wish/hope one day CAP will fall under the Dept of Homeland Security under a new name like the Coast Guard is and all this foolishness in regards to uniforms/ranks/titles/scandals etc. etc. will go away. The Air Force already has a cadet program in place in the high schools......but that is another can of worms. I like to see the organization go this route http://www.casara.ca/ and still be under control of the federal gov't.

You seem to be the perfect example of the type that dislikes the concept of rank structure or you got canned so therefore Civil Air Patrol is evil and requires your wisdom to actually become something of value. (Yes, even though you say "I personally believe")

You obviously don't like CAP as it is in any manner, why bother moaning and groaning about it when you want something completely different? That CASARA seems to be what you want, why not move to Canada and join them? Or form something similar in the US, if you actually have the courage or the means. CAP isn't going to magically turn into your little playtoy, why not make your own?

And your line of

I like to see the organization go this route http://www.casara.ca/ and still be under control of the federal gov't

is really kind of ignorant. Any government has rank, it's just not displayed as rank insignia. The WG-11 will always outrank the WG-7, and will make absololutely certain that the WG-7 knows it. There is no such thing as a government system where grade does not exist. Any organization within the government will have some manner of ranking.

You seem to be forgetting a large amount of facts in your little reality.

[O-Rex]

I've seen differing opinions: over the years I went through different uniform "phases."  When I first joined CAP I wouldn't have been caught dead wearing 'Grays,' but now, with the exception of the TPU jacket, I think I have the full complement of USAF and Corporate duds.  Some folks collect postage stamps, others action-figures, I guess I collect CAP costumes....

(I once had to buy a blue blazer for a 'day-job' related meeting that called for it as well as heather-gray slacks, so I said what-the-heck and got the crest & nameplate, and ended up using the uniform for "meet & greet" duty in the hotel lobby at a WingConf.)

Anyway, I never felt less of a member in one uniform than another.  The Golf shirt is a nice "in-a-pinch" uniform, depending on the formality of the event.

[JayT]

When I was a young senior member, I wore a combination of the CAP blue nomex, CAP jumpsuit (yuk) and BDU. I personally believe any CAP flying uniform should not resemble combat uniforms. Civil Air Patrol is NOT the US Air force. It is only the auxiliary (sometimes). Uniforms worn on SAR/DR missions should be brighter colors i.e. CAP flightsuit (older royal blue that is being phased out). Even a combination of red/blue flightsuits would be desirable. In my opinion, I think it's nonsense to wear nomex in single engine civil aircraft in a non combat role. Most of the single engine controlled crashes I've seen did not result in fire anyway. So the crew's visibility from the air would be more important in a mishap. CAP should NOT/NEVER be confused with the real Air Force. I wish/hope one day CAP will fall under the Dept of Homeland Security under a new name like the Coast Guard is and all this foolishness in regards to uniforms/ranks/titles/scandals etc. etc. will go away. The Air Force already has a cadet program in place in the high schools......but that is another can of worms. I like to see the organization go this route http://www.casara.ca/ and still be under control of the federal gov't.

You seem to be the perfect example of the type that dislikes the concept of rank structure or you got canned so therefore Civil Air Patrol is evil and requires your wisdom to actually become something of value. (Yes, even though you say "I personally believe")

You obviously don't like CAP as it is in any manner, why bother moaning and groaning about it when you want something completely different? That CASARA seems to be what you want, why not move to Canada and join them? Or form something similar in the US, if you actually have the courage or the means. CAP isn't going to magically turn into your little playtoy, why not make your own?

And your line of

I like to see the organization go this route http://www.casara.ca/ and still be under control of the federal gov't

is really kind of ignorant. Any government has rank, it's just not displayed as rank insignia. The WG-11 will always outrank the WG-7, and will make absololutely certain that the WG-7 knows it. There is no such thing as a government system where grade does not exist. Any organization within the government will have some manner of ranking.

You seem to be forgetting a large amount of facts in your little reality.

That seems like a lot of aggression for a simple statement.

[Hawk200]

That seems like a lot of aggression for a simple statement.

Maybe so. But it also shows that people on this board know full well why certain posters are here. In "2bLT"'s case, it seems to be an individual that got canned, didn't do anything about it, and now considers CAP in it's current incarnation "evil". I just happen to be the first person blunt enough to say it.

Now the individual seems to think that if CAP gets revamped to the way they want it to be, it won't be evil anymore. That they have all the answers. The unfortunate fact that escapes some of these people is that even if the organization gets revamped, a lot of the "Old Guard" people are actually going to still be there. They may not have rank insignia anymore, but the people that generate the problems would probably still  be there.

2bLT says that there is an AFJROTC program in place, and gives the impression that the CAP cadet program lacks any reason for existance. Having been a cadet for awhile, do you feel that AFJROTC would have given you the same opportunities that CAP has? Was there an AFJROTC program even local to you at all?

Realigning CAP under DHS will alter what CAP is. It won't be a benevolent or a non-profit organization anymore. Not to mention, there are a number of people in CAP that wouldn't even want to work under DHS. Not sure I'd even want to.

The problem is that some disgruntled posters don't seem to understand that we know they think CAP needs an overhaul. Even Ray Hayden didn't advocate revamping the organization into another entity entirely, he just had a problem with one individual. We have other people that have problems with the current command chain, but they don't advocate radically altering what the organization is. Some people have an almost delusional idea that if it should get changed to what they think it should be, and that since they have the answers, they would have a place in the new regime.

[JayT]

I was indeed a Cadet Major in the NY-093 AFJROTC Detachment. I know that JROTC didn't give me the same opportunities that CAP gave me, but JROTC did have some pretty serious things that CAP didn't have.

Honestly? I agree with you. I don't think I would want to be under CAP if it wasn't a uniformed organization.

[star1151]

I think the difference Major, is that some view the Corporate uniform as an example of someone who doesn't really want to be 'military.'

And that's too bad.  I'd be wearing the AF uniform if I was competent enough to fix my hair so it conforms to regulations.  Doesn't mean I have anything against the military aspect, in fact, I like it.  Being new, I just don't understand the hatred for the golf shirt uniform.

[Hawk200]

I think the difference Major, is that some view the Corporate uniform as an example of someone who doesn't really want to be 'military.'

And that's too bad.  I'd be wearing the AF uniform if I was competent enough to fix my hair so it conforms to regulations.  Doesn't mean I have anything against the military aspect, in fact, I like it.  Being new, I just don't understand the hatred for the golf shirt uniform.

I don't understand "hatred" for the golf shirt, it looks OK to me. What I do question is whether or not it is approppriate at times. Went to a fly-in at an out-in-the-sticks airfield a few weeks ago, and saw a senior member wearing the golf shirt with grey slacks, and boots wearing all his green web gear. This individual was out doing practice ELT searches.

It just didn't look right to me. A guy in a polo shirt and slacks just doesn't look prepared to go tromping around the woods, or walking all over a grass airstrip. And he was the only person that showed up to this "activity" in that uniform. Everyone else was wearing BDU's (woodlands, but I think a blue BDU would have been perfectly appropriate).

That aside, I've considered a golf shirt myself. Just haven't gotten around to getting one. I don't have proper slacks to wear with it either. Maybe next paycheck.

[Grumpy]

Ah yes, here it is 15:30.  Time to get into my, dare I say it?  Yes!  I will say it!  Blue CAP golf shirt and my gray slacks with my non-military SAS shoes, because they don't hurt my diabetic feet, and head out to my squadron meeting place.   I am so bad. 

[Short Field]

Grumpy, I have that same uniform combination and it is my preferred uniform.  Got to love those SAS low quarters.

[Grumpy]

Amen

[jpravain]

Hawk200,

First off, who do you think you are for judging me? I stated a personal opinion. I resigned from a squadron I did not enjoy being a part of 10 years ago (I was 21 average age in squadron 60+ do I need say more) and recently wanted to get back in until I did some research on current events regarding CAP and find you have a Nat'l Cmdr who was forced terminated due to cheating. He embarrassed the organization, it's members, and the US Air Force. The relationship w/ the USAF has NEVER been this bad. I perceive the organization in it's current state as not working and a change can be good. You sir are ignorant for posting such a harsh response to me w/o even giving me the benefit of the doubt of my reasons for my post or my past history. You would think a "salty and seasoned contributer" would be a little more polite. Maybe I will move to Canada and join that organization.  There are alot of positive things about CAP in its current state but ask yourself how productive is the organization vs non productive? Why are all the members calling for change? Do yourself a favor and think before you post such a harsh and personal attack on someone who is just stating an opinion which is no more than an idea. Judging from how you attacked me personally for posting goes to show you are nothing more than a "keyboard tough guy" and you sir are in fact dis-gruntled. If you think CAP is fine the way it is now, maybe you need to check your little reality. I was both a CAP cadet (1 yr) and AFJROTC cadet (4 yrs) and I personally got more from the AFJROTC program because it was run by retired AF professionals. The only thing I liked about the CAP cadet program was the orientation flights. I was a Senior Member (3 yrs). Let me make this clear to you now, I have no grudge against CAP (or the past squadron) at all. No regrets. I am eager to rejoin and joined this board to research the progress of the organization for the past 11 years. I am not that impressed due to current events. I am all for a chain of command. I just would like to see one that works. Is the US Coast Guard under the Dept. of Homeland Security now? Do they have a non profit auxiliary? Anything is possible. If CAP can sustain itself under the Air Force and earn the respect of the Air Force (again) then I would like to see the organization remain under Air Force control. Nuff said in my defense. It is what it is. Take your aggression some place else.

[Ned]

Jason,

See this is part of the difficulty of effective communication on the internet;

Hawk200,

First off, who do you think you are for judging me? I stated a personal opinion.

You certainly stated a personal opinion.  So did he.  And I suspect all of us "judge" each other based on our posts.  That's probably unavoidable.

I resigned from a squadron I did not enjoy being a part of 10 years ago

In your other posts, you indicated that you were 2b'd. (and subsequently "resigned" prior to the "effective date" of your termination.)  That must have been a devastatiing experience.  You even mentioned burning your uniforms.  Clearly you had some strong negative opinions of CAP at the time.

And you have chosen the interesting screen name of "2bLt" rather than something like "resignedLt".

The relationship w/ the USAF has NEVER been this bad.

And this observation is based on . . . .?  Seriously, which senior AF officers (Say, O-5 and above) have you discussed this with?

I perceive the organization in it's current state as not working

Again, based on . . . ?  You seem like a reasonable person.  Surely you are not forming your opinions based on what you read in internet chat rooms, bulletin boards, and NOTF?

Our numbers are more or less the same as they have been recently, both in terms of membership (slightly lower)  and missions performed for the USAF and other government agencies (slightly higher).  And of course Congress has significantly increased our support in recent years.  They can't be too unhappy with us.

Why are all the members calling for change?

Or at least a lot of former members.   

Seriously, on what do you base this statement?

My personal experience is that weekly meetings around the country are going on pretty much as they always have -- hardwroking volunteers (including tens of thousands of cadets) working on improving their skills and serving their fellow Americans.

Sure they complain about "those guys" at group, wing, region, and NHQ, but they have been doing that fairly continuously since 1942.

I don't mean to minimize the current situation with our former National Commander, but I suspect that most members (as well as our USAF patners) suspect that the systems put into place to correct these kinds of problems functioned appropriately (if too slowly).  But the bottom line is that squadron meetings -- where CAP does 99% of its work -- are largely unaffected by turmoil at the NHQ level.

I was both a CAP cadet (1 yr) and AFJROTC cadet (4 yrs) and I personally got more from the AFJROTC program because it was run by retired AF professionals. The only thing I liked about the CAP cadet program was the orientation flights.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy our terrific cadet program, but it can hardly be surprising that you "got more from" 4 yrs of JROTC that a single (apparently unhappy) year with CAP.  Just in contact hours alone, the ROTC folks had 5-6 times as much time with you.

And I am still jealous of the paid instructors and staff that form the backbone of the JROTC program.  Just imagine what CAP would be like if we could have full-time instructors at each cadet and composite unit!

Let me make this clear to you now, I have no grudge against CAP (or the past squadron) at all. No regrets.

See, this is the part that concerns me.  It is certainly an unusual attitude for someone in your situation to have.

If I heard someone who had gotten fired from McDonalds and who then took the additional step of burning his crew uniforms tell me that he had "no grudge or regrets" against McDonalds, I would find that a little hard to believe.  Especially if he used a equivalent screen name that referred to his involuntary termination.

But I'm the first to admit that I don't know you, and AFAIK we have never met.  I'd be interested in hearing what "turned you around" from an unhappy, terminated member into one who now eagerly seeks to rejoin.

I would like to see the organization remain under Air Force control.

There are certainly a lot of opinions on whether to and/or how to re-organize CAP.  And yours is certainly as valid as any of the others often offered here.

But it is probably worth remembering that it was not all that long ago that CAP was in fact commanded by a USAF general, and that all of the staffers at NHQ were AF folks -- a mixture of military and DoD civilians.

Heck, it was like that when I was a new member.

But I sure don't remember anyone talking about how efficient and well run CAP was during that era.  Indeed, some folks even then groused about the "problems" at group, wing, region, and even the USAF-run NHQ.

So be careful what you wish for.


Ned Lee
DCP, PCR

[jb512]

Hawk200,

First off, who do you think you are for judging me? I stated a personal opinion. I resigned from a squadron I did not enjoy being a part of 10 years ago (I was 21 average age in squadron 60+ do I need say more) and recently wanted to get back in until I did some research on current events regarding CAP and find you have a Nat'l Cmdr who was forced terminated due to cheating. He embarrassed the organization, it's members, and the US Air Force. The relationship w/ the USAF has NEVER been this bad. I perceive the organization in it's current state as not working and a change can be good. You sir are ignorant for posting such a harsh response to me w/o even giving me the benefit of the doubt of my reasons for my post or my past history. You would think a "salty and seasoned contributer" would be a little more polite. Maybe I will move to Canada and join that organization.  There are alot of positive things about CAP in its current state but ask yourself how productive is the organization vs non productive? Why are all the members calling for change? Do yourself a favor and think before you post such a harsh and personal attack on someone who is just stating an opinion which is no more than an idea. Judging from how you attacked me personally for posting goes to show you are nothing more than a "keyboard tough guy" and you sir are in fact dis-gruntled. If you think CAP is fine the way it is now, maybe you need to check your little reality. I was both a CAP cadet (1 yr) and AFJROTC cadet (4 yrs) and I personally got more from the AFJROTC program because it was run by retired AF professionals. The only thing I liked about the CAP cadet program was the orientation flights. I was a Senior Member (3 yrs). Let me make this clear to you now, I have no grudge against CAP (or the past squadron) at all. No regrets. I am eager to rejoin and joined this board to research the progress of the organization for the past 11 years. I am not that impressed due to current events. I am all for a chain of command. I just would like to see one that works. Is the US Coast Guard under the Dept. of Homeland Security now? Do they have a non profit auxiliary? Anything is possible. If CAP can sustain itself under the Air Force and earn the respect of the Air Force (again) then I would like to see the organization remain under Air Force control. Nuff said in my defense. It is what it is. Take your aggression some place else.

Hawk tends to a bit gruff with his replies at times, but I'm going to agree with him on this one.  So the national commander got the boot; so what?  My squadron does the same things today that it did last week when there was a different person wearing two stars on a grey sleeve with big silver letters embroidered on it.

There are some of us with the same and/or more experience than you've had and we seem to deal with things just fine.  Try and stay out of the politics and you might relax a little.

[Conical]

And the original purpose of this thread was ??.....Oh, yeah, the golf shirt.  I own one, plus the aviator shirt, because I can't meet the standards for the AF style uniform.  I like both.  Granted there are times when neither are appropriate, like tromping through the woods, at a conference banquet or, for the golf shirt, meeting with elected officials. 

[Conical]

Let me clarify my last comment.  I think, the aviator shirt can be appropriate at a banquet, but only when worn with the blazer, not by itself or without a tie.  Ya'll can smack me now.