Golf shirts winning in LA

[Bluelakes 13]

My first reaction to this was "poppycock!" Then I looked in CAPP 151, Section A, 2b. "Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a greeting and a symbol of mutual respect. As such, it is never inappropriate to salute another individual. The basic rules regarding saluting for CAP members are:
(1) You salute when in military-style uniform.
(2) You salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to
you.
(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you."

Interesting.  Things you learn when you look them up.  So I take (3) above to mean exclusive of (1), thus you salute when reporting to a senior regardless of uniform.  But in other circumstances, you salute only AF-style uniforms.

[RiverAux]

No, it is not REQUIRED that you salute while in civilian uniform.  It is while you are in military uniform. 

[Eclipse]

No, it is not REQUIRED that you salute while in civilian uniform.  It is while you are in military uniform. 

There are a lot of things in life that are not "required", but which are wholly appropriate and even expected.

[Dragoon]

It has been my experience that when you expect something that is not required......you're likely to be disappointed a lot.  Because so many folks won't see it the same way you do.

[Dragoon]

In the RealMilitary@, we saluted even in civillian clothes. Often the officer would wave his hand and say "it's OK guys, we're off-duty", but at least we made the gesture. The respect is deserved by the officer from the subordinate regardless of the clothing being worn whether it's required by regs or not.

I've found that to be very true in the Army, but not so prevalent a custom in USAF.  YMMV

[Hawk200]

In the RealMilitary@, we saluted even in civillian clothes. Often the officer would wave his hand and say "it's OK guys, we're off-duty", but at least we made the gesture. The respect is deserved by the officer from the subordinate regardless of the clothing being worn whether it's required by regs or not.

I've found that to be very true in the Army, but not so prevalent a custom in USAF.  YMMV

I had a commander in tech school that demanded salutes even when he was in civilian clothes. There were three occasions that I encountered him when in civvies, and didn't salute. When he "called" me on it, I always responded with "Sorry, sir, didn't recognize you in civilian clothes."

I have a feeling that was overall less trouble than telling him "I think you're an -------, and C&C doesn't require me to salute your fat --- when we're in civvies anyway!"

[Larry Mangum]

I also was taught to salute a superior officer if he was in civilian clothing while serving in the USAF during the late seventies.

[star1151]

I also was taught to salute a superior officer if he was in civilian clothing while serving in the USAF during the late seventies.

My brother learned the same thing in the Marines and my parents the same thing in the Navy.  Maybe not required, but definitely acceptable.  Not sure why it's such an issue with CAP.  That being said, I'd feel uncomfortable saluting in the golf shirt uniform...like it's not something I'm entitled to.

[MIKE]

Because CAPP 151 says "when in military style uniform".  At the time the pamphlet was written blue BDUs, utility uniforms and the TPU didn't exist.

[Dragoon]

So true.  I know the blazer existed when it was written - I don't know about the golf shirt. 

But we definitely need a definition of what "military style" actually means.

[Eclipse]

I also was taught to salute a superior officer if he was in civilian clothing while serving in the USAF during the late seventies.

My brother learned the same thing in the Marines and my parents the same thing in the Navy.  Maybe not required, but definitely acceptable.  Not sure why it's such an issue with CAP. 

Because arguing about legalistic minutia is much easier than actually doing anything of value.

In the RealMilitary® uniforms, courtesies, and procedures are drummed into every recruit the same way for weeks until they are second nature.  Things become more "relaxed" as they move into tech schools and have "real" work to do, however the baseline expectation is identical for everyone, and any "adjustments" to standard are made clear and enforced uniformly.

In CAP, there is no uniform basic training, not even a uniform expectation of knowledge by commanders and training officers.  Further, because many of our members are about as diplomatic as an elephant in a china shop, corrections are often treated as "gotchas", instead of just a quiet conversation meant to fix a problem.  In many cases commanders are both less informed, and apathetic, about uniforms than their membership.

Don't confuse apathy about uniforms with inability to perform a useful operational task, but it does make you a poor choice as a leader of an organization which stresses attention to detail.

In the end, in both the RealMilitary® and CAP, the concern over uniform nuances and courtesies becomes much less of an "upfront" issue as you gain experience, because adhering to regs is just "part of the game" and you forget about it and move on - because you have real work to do.

However if your sum total involvement in CAP is hitting refresh on CAPTalk, you don't have anything else to do but nitpick on saluting distance, reverse flags, and which camo pattern is on the "blouse", sorry, "jacket", um, no "shirt"...

[Short Field]

Saluting is simply an exchange of courtesies between individuals of different rank.  Besides, it is the only time even a Airman Basic can make a General do something... 

[Eclipse]

It doesn't even have to be different grade - it you accidentally salute someone who is an equal or lesser grade, the world does not stop revolving.

However what is >does< do is make you pause (mentally) and take note of who and what the people around you are and have done. 

[DogCollar]

When in doubt...salute!  Also, the golf shirt is okay by me.  I even wear it on occassion!

[Grumpy]

Somehow, I just don't think this dead horse is going to stand.  Why keep beating it?

[Slim]

  Can't believe I'm getting sucked into this one again.....

Why is it such a big deal who rates a salute or not?  Did two captains, one wearing AF service dress and one wearing CSU, not accomplish the same requirements to earn their grade?  Why is the officer wearing a corporate uniform any less worthy of a salute than one in an AF style uniform?  They both did the same courses, spent the same minimum amount of time in the program to get where they are.  Just because one officer chooses, or has the integrity, to wear the proper uniform, why is s/he not entitled to a greeting from a cadet or lower ranking officer?  If nothing else, I'd have more respect for someone who may be close enough to the standard, but still over it, and wearing a corporate uniform than a similar officer stuffed into an AF style uniform. 

If I had the power, I'd say that saluting between CAP members is required, regardless of uniform.  Exchanging salutes between members in corporate uniforms and military members, while awkward, does happen.  At least it happens to me on a regular basis on the base we hold our encampments at.  Even though those guardsmen know that it's not required, I'm greeted several times with a salute and a "Hello, sir." 

The golf shirt uniforms are a sticky wicket, because there is no grade displayed anywhere.  However, if you know you're about to pass a higher ranking officer in a golf shirt, what's wrong with exchanging salutes?  One again, it's about recognizing a higher ranking officer, not about the duds one of you is wearing. 

I'm sure the regulation purists among us are probably twitching in their chairs right now, but I'm just a reasonable person trying to apply reason and common sense to something that should be a non-issue among fellow unpaid professionals.  Somewhere on here, in an old thread, I told a story about saluting in the grey/white combo, and being just short of physically corrected by an officer who was then serving as the national IG, while on the reviewing stand at encampment.  Long and short of it was that the colonel (who is a mentor and friend) told me that salutes weren't rendered in civilian clothes.  My response was that I salute in my fire dept uniform all the time, and it's not a military uniform.  At the next opportunity during the ceremony, there he was (he is a retired police officer, btw, so he understood my analogy), in his blazer combo, proudly saluting the colors as they marched past.

In the end, what is a salute?  A gesture of greeting between two people, the military (or paramilitary, in our case) equivalent of waving.  What does is matter what one or both of them are wearing?

Oh, by the way, I don't recall which one, but one of the ICLs on the CSU states that military customs and courtesies apply to members in that uniform.

[JayT]

I think the difference Major, is that some view the Corporate uniform as an example of someone who doesn't really want to be 'military.'

[Hawk200]

I think the difference Major, is that some view the Corporate uniform as an example of someone who doesn't really want to be 'military.'

And there are also many that are wearing the Corporate that don't wish to be military in appearance either. It's a strange viewpoint that does go both ways.

[MIKE]

IIRC there is/was (a now technically invalid) ICL that prescribed C&C for the TPU/Corporate Service Uniform.

And there are also many that are wearing the Corporate that don't wish to be military in appearance either. It's a strange viewpoint that does go both ways.

Which would seem counter to the original idea behind the uniform.  A uniform for those members who could not wear the AF style uniform for reasons of wieght... which was "more military" or "more of a uniform" than the blazer and aviator shirt combinations already available.

[Slim]

I think the difference Major, is that some view the Corporate uniform as an example of someone who doesn't really want to be 'military.'

True, in the case of those who choose to wear the golf shirts.  Which is fine, I finally broke down and got one that I wear in certain situations too.  However, being in a position of leadership in my unit and wing, I believe that the only difference between the military style and corporates is the color.  Otherwise, I put just as much effort into preparing my corporate uniforms (pressed/starched, insigina properly placed/sewn, boots shined, etc) as I did as a cadet and young senior preparing blues, fatigues and BDUs.  I keep my grooming well within standards.I'm one of the few who also puts as much effort into keeping my work uniforms looking sharp.  I don't want to be in the military.  If I did (and wasn't medically disqualified), I would have joined the military.  What I am in is a paramilitary organization.  I don't for one second think I'm equal to a RealMilitary officer.  What I am, and what I'm proud of, is a major in the Civil Air Patrol. 

I think the difference Major, is that some view the Corporate uniform as an example of someone who doesn't really want to be 'military.'

And there are also many that are wearing the Corporate that don't wish to be military in appearance either. It's a strange viewpoint that does go both ways.

Agreed, and I can live with that too.  Like I said, there's nothing wrong with wearing the golf shirt combo.  I wear it myself in situations, mostly attending PD classes, or in situations where I want to soften down the military aspect of the program.  But, being a larger member who is almost exclusively involved in cadet programs at the unit and wing levels, it's my opinion that corporate uniforms can (and should) be treated no differently.

IIRC there is/was (a now technically invalid) ICL that prescribed C&C for the TPU/Corporate Service Uniform.

And there are also many that are wearing the Corporate that don't wish to be military in appearance either. It's a strange viewpoint that does go both ways.

Which would seem counter to the original idea behind the uniform.  A uniform for those members who could not wear the AF style uniform for reasons of wieght... which was "more military" or "more of a uniform" than the blazer and aviator shirt combinations already available.

Tell you what, why don't we just trash everything that "He-who's-name-remains-unsaid" did by ICL?  Just do away with all of it?  Yeah, that gets rid of the CSU, American flags, and US Civil Air Patrol tapes.  Oh, by the way, that also gets rid of grade on BDU covers, and makes wing patches on blues and BDUs mandatory once again.  Not so "Technically" invalid now is it?  I'll get out my greys, just as soon as you start sewing wing patches again.  And that's just touching on uniforms.  There were plenty of other regs and manuals changed by now "Techically" invalid ICL.  To include the new AFIADL testing procedures that are now making my SOS experience a pain in the FPOC. 

Statements like that work both ways, but I suspect that the purists don't see it that way.  What if we were to take the CGAux stand that customs and courtesies aren't required among members?  I had no issues with it in that organization, and I'd have no issue with it in this organization.  I suspect that some of the more "Militant" members of this organization would.

With age and experience come wisdom.  I know that i'm not going to change anyone else's opinion on this subject any more than anyone else is going to change mine.

With that, I'm going back to doing what I normally do on uniform threads.....