Golf shirts winning in LA

[Major Carrales]

This golf shirt issue just will not die.

Fact is, most arguments for and against golf shirts are pretty frivolous.

For...

1) We need to look like other agencies...

Sorry, no, we need to look like CAP.  No matter what we look like, our worth will be determined by preformance.  

2) It's more comfortable...

Really, keep in mind it is a shirt.  A button up shirt shares all the same issues as a golf shirt.  It has to be tucked in, it is just as restrictive.  I am assuming it will not be wadded up and removed from a pocket...although I have seen some aviators take what looks like a rag out of their tool box and put it on.

3) It is safer than a flight suit...

What material are these thing made out of?  Cotton?  Polyester?

4) I don't want to play soldier...

But you do want to play golf?  I think that a classroom environment lends itself to the golf shirt.  The best uniform I see for CAP flying is either the new Corporate Blue Bants/White Shirt or the older White-Greys.  They look like what people think of as professional pilot.

These are, of course, only my opinions on the matter.

In the grand course of things, it will not be the syle of our dress that distinguishes us a professionals, but rather the ability to preform the missions.

[Pace]

Oh snap...

*Proud member of the Mississippi Wing* 

[Major Carrales]

One last thing on the Golf Shirts in that Photo...



Note the various styles.  CAP "Cookie" on the left side...some on the right side.  Some full color, some silkscreened.  Some with names, some with out.  Likely every shade of grey trousers as well.  The point to that...a unifrom standard should be established.

Hummmm....the real point to all this...

Ancillary as the day is long!!!

[Avery]

I like the comment, "a classroom environment lends itself to the golf shirt." To that I would add: Uniforms for the drill deck, BDUs for field work, and flight suits for flying.

[Major Carrales]

I like the comment, "a classroom environment lends itself to the golf shirt." To that I would add: Uniforms for the drill deck, BDUs for field work, and flight suits for flying.

Well said... Missions Bases should be in Minimum Service Dress (Corporate or USAF Style), Ground Teams in BDUs (same as before) and Aircrews in Flight suits (same as before).

Again, rememeber these unifrom topics are ancillary to the greater goals of getting the missions done well.

[Eclipse]

I like the comment, "a classroom environment lends itself to the golf shirt." To that I would add: Uniforms for the drill deck, BDUs for field work, and flight suits for flying.

Awesome! I agree!

And as soon as the USCAP starts issuing uniforms, I'll sign on to the idea.

Don't get me wrong, I'm wearing a $180+ blue nomex suit myself,

but not everyone can afford to drop 2 Benji's for a pair of pajamas, fire proof or not.

A rule like that would preclude many highly-proficient aircrew, not just pilots, from participating.

[Dragoon]

By the way, I'm not a fan of the golf shirt.  No rank, and no USAF equivalent uniform.  I wear flight suits.

But here's why I think here's why it's winning out


1.  "It's cheap.  Especially if I've already got grey pants sitting around somewhere.  Plus, thanks to 39-1 classifying it as the equivalent of short sleeve service dress, I can wear for virtually any CAP activity."

2. "It's easy.  If I wear the other stuff I have to worry about sewing/pinning on badges, shining shoes, etc.  With the gold shirt, I just slip it on and go!"

3. "It lets me avoid the whole "military" side of CAP.  I don't have to salute anyone.  No one knows my grade.  I don't have to worry about putting on a hat outdoors and taking it off indoors.  Basically, I can stay in my comfort zone.  All this military stuff makes me uncomfortable, either because I'm not trained it it, or I did it for 20 years and I'm sick of it.    Better to avoid it.  And CAP lets me avoid it.

4.  "It's COOL.  Literally.  There is no more comfortable uniform in a hot cockpit than a golf shirt and lightweight slacks.  And when I'm hot and sweaty, I'm not performing at my best."

5. "I'm not worried about burning to death in a plane.  It seems heck of alot more likely that the impact will kill me first, and no one's making me wear a helmet...."


I can think of no simple way to overcome these arguments - they're all pretty good.  Only by killing the golf shirt entirely, or restricting it's wear to certain activities will we see less of them.

[Eclipse]

Customs and courtesies apply in all CAP uniforms.

As to the other arguments, "cheap & easy" is the whole point of that combo. 

I generally encourage new members to go with that combo first, see if they click with CAP, and then "reward" themselves with something more "complicated" when they get their first grade appointment.

Save money for the newbs who don't stick, saves the collars of the shirts for those who do, and the odds of most seniors needing anything more in the first 6 months of the CAP career are pretty low. (YMMV)

[Dragoon]

Customs and courtesies apply in all CAP uniforms.

As to the other arguments, "cheap & easy" is the whole point of that combo. 

I generally encourage new members to go with that combo first, see if they click with CAP, and then "reward" themselves with something more "complicated" when they get their first grade appointment.

Save money for the newbs who don't stick, saves the collars of the shirts for those who do, and the odds of most seniors needing anything more in the first 6 months of the CAP career are pretty low. (YMMV)

Nope.  You don't have to salute in a golf shirt.  And it's pretty easy to avoid throwing "sir" into a conversation if no one knows if they outrank you or not.

Not defending it.  Just sayin' it.


Your assumption that members start with the golf shirt and move on doesn't match what folks are observing.  We're talking about the guys who never go any farther.

[floridacyclist]

Am curious, where does it say that you don't have to salute in a golf shirt?

[Eclipse]

Your assumption that members start with the golf shirt and move on doesn't match what folks are observing.  We're talking about the guys who never go any farther.

I didn't say I assumed that was what was happening, I said it was what >I< encourage new members to do,  especially with members who may not have gotten the whole story at the air show or other recruiting opportunity. Once I have that conversation, if the members want to go whole-hog on service dress, that's fine - they just can't say I didn't suggest a less expensive alternative.

In general, proper uniform wear is as easy as positive peer pressure. 

Nope.  You don't have to salute in a golf shirt.  And it's pretty easy to avoid throwing "sir" into a conversation if no one knows if they outrank you or not.

Chapter and verse, please.

[RiverAux]

Do you really need a specific reglation quote to tell you that those in civilian clothes are not required to salute higher ups?

[DKruse]

Not really a regulation, but.......

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503084356.pdf

Look at Section A.2.b.(1).  The only uniform specified when you must salute is in a military-style uniform.  However, it doesn't prohibit saluting while wearing any of the corporate uniforms, including the golf shirt.

[Eclipse]

Do you really need a specific reglation quote to tell you that those in civilian clothes are not required to salute higher ups?

Yes, this is a point of specific contention with me for the reason you indicate - the golf shirt, or other distinctive combinations, are not "civilian clothes", they are a CAP uniform.

There's obvious latitude when you don't know someone or their grade, but since we're all officers, it should go without saying that verbal courtesies should be maintained no matter what you are wearing.  And if you know the position or grade of the person you are standing in front of, a salute won't kill anyone.

Cadets generally "get" this, but it seems its the seniors who are most reluctant to maintain the professional separation that courtesies engender.

If a respective commander or officer chooses to allow latitude in formalities, that is their prerogative, but certainly the formality should be assumed until your are told otherwise.

[Eclipse]

Not really a regulation, but.......

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503084356.pdf

Look at Section A.2.b.(1).  The only uniform specified when you must salute is in a military-style uniform.  However, it doesn't prohibit saluting while wearing any of the corporate uniforms, including the golf shirt.

Below is the relevant text, and I will grant is does not indicate "will" for corporates as it does for military-style.  As indicated, it doesn't say won't, either, and frankly I don't think about it enough
to >not< do it on most occasions, and as I indicated, verbal courtesies should be maintained regardless.

Certainly if you are wearing whites, or the TPU, you should salute - especially in front of cadets.

Why wouldn't you? (assuming its not a flightline / no salute are, etc.)

b. Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a greeting and a symbol of mutual respect. As such, it is never inappropriate to salute another individual. The basic rules regarding saluting for CAP members are:
(1) You salute when in military-style uniform.
(2) You salute the President of the United States, all

Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to you.
(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you.
(4) You salute when outdoors unless:
(a) You are carrying articles (or a heavy object) in both hands, which cannot be transferred to the left hand, or another legitimate reason such as injury, and so forth. In this case, an oral greeting should be exchanged, such as "Good Morning, Sir or Ma'am." If you are the lower ranking individual and the one you are approaching is higher in rank but whose arms are incapacitated, you will still salute.
(b) You are in a designated "covered" or "no salute" area, (aircraft marshalling areas and flightlines are "no salute" areas).
(c) You are a member of a military formation or a work detail (only the senior member of the formation or detail salutes).
(d) You are attending a public gathering such as a sports event.
(5) When on a military installation, you salute officers in government cars if the car has a flag or metal standard that identifies the rank of the occupant (usually general officers and military wing or base commanders).
(6) Military personnel are not required to render a salute to CAP personnel, but they are not restricted from doing so if they desire.

[Dragoon]

They wouldn't say "military style uniform" if the courtesies applied to ALL uniforms.  Obviously, some uniforms are exempt.

The obvious 2 are golf shirts and blazers.  In fact, in the old level 1 video they specifically demonstrated folks in blazers not saluting while their brethren in service dress did salute.

The TPU seems pretty "military style."

The BBDU and Blue Utility/Flight suits probably fall into that realm, but since headgear is optional on them, I can see it both ways (BDUs without a hat outdoors look a lot less "military").

The White and Greys are probably the place most arguments would occur.  No hat and civilian pants.  But on the other hand, same grade, nameplate and other bling as short sleeve service dress.

Without more specific guidance, this one's gonna be an area of misundertanding for some time to come.

But in the meantime, it's a pretty good bet thatt  you're safe avoiding saluting by wearing a golf shirt.  Which I think is part of the appeal...

[Grumpy]

This might not be in the order of what we are talking about, but, I like wearing the gray slacks and golf shirt because I am diabetic and I can wear my black non-military SAS shoes with that combination and my feet don't hurt any more.

[DKruse]

They wouldn't say "military style uniform" if the courtesies applied to ALL uniforms.  Obviously, some uniforms are exempt.

...

Without more specific guidance, this one's gonna be an area of misundertanding for some time to come.

But in the meantime, it's a pretty good bet thatt  you're safe avoiding saluting by wearing a golf shirt.  Which I think is part of the appeal...

Here's how I look at it (and I could be wrong):

AF-Style Uniform (as defined by CAPM 39-1) are "military-style".
CAP Corporate uniforms are not "military-style".

This is an interesting issue that caused a little bit of a problem for me...

As a new member a few years ago, I attended a SLS where some cadets taught the uniform and C&C sections.  One of the cadet instructors said that we were prohibited from saluting unless we were wearing AF-style uniforms.  At a meeting a few weeks later, I was called to the front by the squadron commander.  Wearing the aviator shirt, I didn't salute as I was reporting in.  He stood there waiting for me to salute and I quietly told him that I wasn't supposed to salute.  It was quite an awkward moment.  After that, I looked into the issue and even sent a question into the Knowledgebase.  Their reply was that C&C are not prohibited while wearing the corporate uniforms, but neither was it required.  They referred to the section in CAPP 151 that is indicated in my previous post and quoted by Eclipse.

I think proper respect should be shown no matter what uniform you are wearing, but I won't come down on somebody for not saluting while wearing a corporate uniform.

[floridacyclist]

In the RealMilitary@, we saluted even in civillian clothes. Often the officer would wave his hand and say "it's OK guys, we're off-duty", but at least we made the gesture. The respect is deserved by the officer from the subordinate regardless of the clothing being worn whether it's required by regs or not.

[Major Carrales]

Heaven forbid people actually render military courtesies in the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary!!!  What would the neighbor's think?